Integrated Schools Master
===

It's like drinking from a fire hose. Hi, I'm Tim Villegas. This is Think Inclusive, MCIE's podcast that features conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. Wow. Inclusion has never been so relevant and there is a lot to keep up with. So I wanted to start off the episode with just some places that I'm keeping tabs on rapidly changing information.

And this is in no way an exhaustive list, but, uh, Jen Newton from teaching is intellectual Dom Kelly from the new disabled South, Jenna Rufo, empower ed school solutions, uh, the council for exceptional children and council for parent attorneys and advocates. Um, those are just what is on top of mind. For me, if you have a good source of information, uh, and want to share it with me, uh, please send me an email at tvillegas at mcie dot org. That's t v i l l e g a s at mcie dot org. I'd love to know what channels you trust. Okay. So this week on the podcast is a very timely episode with my guests, Val Brown and Andrew Lefkowits from the integrated schools podcast. Here's a real quick summary of what we talked about. We start off by diving into the origins of integrated schools, which all began with Courtney Mykytyn's bold decision to enroll her kids in a local school that was predominantly nonwhite.

It was fascinating to hear how that one decision sparked the growth of integrated schools and eventually led to the creation of the podcast. To broaden the conversation about integration and inclusion. Now, sadly, after Courtney's tragic passing, Andrew and Val stepped up to be co hosts and carry on her mission, uh, through the podcast, we talk about some really important topics like inclusive education, the societal and educational barriers we face, how privilege and systemic structures impact our schools and communities.

And Val really drove home the point about the need for ongoing conversations about race and inclusion, while Andrew emphasized creating welcoming spaces that truly embrace diversity. I'm hearing a theme, diversity, equity, inclusion, um, just something to consider. Like I said, inclusion is where it's at folks.

Before we get into my conversation with Val and Andrew, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this season. IXL. IXL is a fantastic all in one platform designed for K 12 education. It helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers and tracks progress seamlessly. Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources.

Well, That's IXL as students practice, IXL adapts to their individual needs, ensuring they're both supported and challenged. Plus every learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively address any knowledge gaps. Interested in learning more, visit ixl dot com slash inclusive that's ixl dot com slash inclusive.

Okay. After a short break, my conversation with Val Brown and Andrew Lefkowits catch you on the other side.

​

Tim Villegas: Val Brown and Andrew Lefkowits. Welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast. Hey, thanks so much. Uh, it's so fun to talk to podcasters. 

Val Brown: Well, I am like, I am just excited to be on this side of the interview. Andrew and I don't have this opportunity very often, but really inviting us. I know. Aren't we wonderful to talk to 

Tim Villegas: everyone out there?

Let's stay everyone that has a podcast. You need to have Andrew and Val on your podcast. There. I said, right. That's right. Yeah. It's going to happen. Exactly. Um, I, I want to talk about your podcast, the integrated schools podcast. Uh, but before we get into that, I'd love to know, like, how, how did this begin?

Like, how did, how did you two meet? Um, Oh, why was it important for you to create a podcast? Like what, what's your origin story? 

Val Brown: Andrew, we'll start with you. 

Andrew Lefkowits: Yeah, sure. So, um, integrated schools, the organization started back in 2015. Excuse me. A woman named Courtney Mykytyn had, uh, uh, decided to enroll her kids in the school down the street that all of her white privileged friends said nobody goes to, but that she walked by every day and saw hundreds of kids going in and out of and thought, well, somebody goes there, maybe my kids should also go there.

And made all sorts of mistakes in how she showed up there, but also found it to be a really sort of fulfilling and an important process and thought there were probably other people out there grappling with similar sort of questions about the messages that we get about what it means to be a good parent and the messages we get about what it means to be a good citizen and where those things sometimes are in conflict.

And so she started what was basically a blog out of her kitchen and started kind of gathering people who were thinking in similar ways. Um, I found her in, uh, March of 2018 and did, joined a virtual book club and started connecting with her. And then, um, they were at the time talking about starting a podcast.

I'm an audio engineer by training. And so said, Oh, I can help with that. Uh, and so Courtney and I launched the podcast back in, uh, November of 2018 as a place to have conversations between parents. What Courtney was doing a whole lot of is sort of an organizer was getting on the phone with people and having long, drawn out conversations, which were very important, but also not really scalable.

And so she said, well, what if we, Recorded some of those conversations and put them out for people to listen to and see if there's any interest in it. And there was there was an far more interest than we had ever thought there would be and you know Downloads kept growing and wow, this is there's like a lot of uh appetite here for these conversations.

We'll keep having them Um tragically at the end of 2019 december 30th. She was struck by a car and killed outside of her house um Which sort of threw the whole organization up in the air We didn't really know what was going to happen if there was going to be Enough people behind it to kind of keep things going and a team of us came together and said, we're going to keep this vision alive.

Keep it going. So I hope to the podcast for about a year on my own with a few kind of guest hosts along the way. Um, and in that that interim period, we were having a lot of conversations. The organization started. I was really kind of focused on on white parents. White and or privileged, but really was largely kind of white parents talking to white parents, which we think is like a really important piece of the work.

Like one of our advisory board members, Matt Gonzalez has a piece called white lips to white ears that white people hear things differently from other white people. And so there's real value in that. And we started running up against the kind of limitations of conversations about integration in segregated spaces.

And kind of, um, in the meantime, uh, Val had found us on social media and started reaching out and I'll let you take it from there, Val. 

Val Brown: Yeah, absolutely. And so it was probably November of, maybe, maybe a little bit earlier, but certainly the fall of 2019 where I reached out to integrated schools at the same time I was organizing some teachers, um, Through a platform called hashtag hashtag clear the air, where we would talk about, um, the intersections between race, history and education.

And so it was a multiracial group that would come together weekly. We would have these discussions publicly because we thought our public learning. was really important in order to push the conversation forward. And then, um, one of my colleagues at the time said, Hey, there's an organization of parents who are doing similar work.

You should connect with them. And so I reached out, um, and I just sent a DM to whoever was behind the handle for Integrated Schools Podcast. And I was like, Hey, let's try to figure out how to do some work together. I'm really excited about bringing caregivers and educators together. Um And when I finally heard back, that was unfortunately after Courtney's death.

And so like, right when we were going to join forces, um, as organizations, um, she passed and, uh, we, we stayed close, you know, because I cared about the work that the organization was doing. I hadn't had a chance to have a conversation, a personal conversation with Courtney, but I was super moved by the work.

That she did. And so I wanted to be as involved as I possibly could. And I asked Andrew and a few others who were leading the effort. I was like, okay, this is like integrated schools. Like, do I fit here? Um, as a black mom from North Carolina. And I think the answer was yeah. And, you know, we aren't really having conversations that you might.

find valuable. Um, and I think from my previous work, um, with educators, multiracial group of educators, I always felt like we don't know how well we're doing in this conversation until we start talking to one another. So I can have my affinity group. But until we come together, it's we're just testing it out, right?

And so the rubber really hits the road when we have these conversations in community nuanced conversations. And so when Andrew asked me to, to co host the podcast as his second choice, I said, of course 

Tim Villegas: she's going to hold that over you. 

Val Brown: I am 

Tim Villegas: eventually, eventually she'll get over it 

Val Brown: eventually. And it's worked out because now it's been several seasons and we're joined at that.

Tim Villegas: Oh, that that's fantastic. Um, and, and it sounds organic. Right. You know, just like value. You're interested in the content and you're like, how can we collaborate? And I'm sure it's, I'm sure Andrew at, uh, as someone who does this, uh, by myself and doesn't have a cohost, I think, I think it's a beneficial, it would be beneficial to have that, uh, sounding board and, um, just talking about things and having different perspectives like that.

Yeah. 

Val Brown: Yeah, for sure. Because, you know, we, we obviously record. Um, but more than that, we have conversations about what is happening in our own lives and how we are showing up in the work. And so having a partner, um, that you can be really authentic with and you can say, here's where I'm struggling. Here's where I'm not so sure.

Hey, Andrew, I think this and he's like, Hey, Val, have you thought about this perspective? I think that has, um, deepened our relationship significantly. And we want to use that as a model for our listeners as well. 

Tim Villegas: So it sounds like the, you're originally at least the, the point of view of the podcast, uh, was about parents or for parents, is that right?

Andrew Lefkowits: It's still primary primary. Our primary audience, I would say, is parents and caregivers, people who are, you know, directly in charge of making decisions about where their kids are gonna go to school, how they're gonna show up in those school communities. We definitely have a lot of teachers and administrators and and even, you know, people who are sort of connected to education who also listen.

But I think would say I definitely are a parent. You know, as we go into an interview, we're thinking, like, what's the message that parents and caregivers need to hear from this guest that we have? 

Val Brown: And to add to that, like, all of our caregivers and parents also do something else. And so I think that part is important, um, because the ways in which people show up in their homes can have an impact on the ways they show up in the world, where they decide to live, even after their kids age out of a public school system, um, how they.

what they advocate for, maybe how they vote, um, how they decide to spend their funds, what signs they put in their yard. Um, those are all things that, you know, cause your, your, your life, um, continues once your kids age out of schools. And there's still work that can be done and should be done on behalf of the mission and vision that we, we have 

Andrew Lefkowits: on that front.

And I, and I haven't told you this about, I just had this conversation like two nights ago with a woman, uh, from Denver who, Is a physician. And she was saying like, she, she listens to the podcast all the time. She really loves it. And there was some episodes, you couldn't even remember what episode it was.

But she said it like completely shifted how she showed up as a physician. It made her realize the ways in which underserved, underserved communities continue to be underserved in the medical field. And, and she like looked around and was like, well, we should do something about that. I was so deeply moved by that.

Like, here's the message, you know, kind of, kind of filtering out into the rest of the world. 

Val Brown: So not only should everyone invite us onto their podcast, we also are training doctors. That's what I heard. That's it. 

Tim Villegas: That is also what I heard. I, I, I want to put this out into the, to the universe. Uh, uh, I'm, I'm working on just a little kind of like side research project with a, uh, narrative podcast series that we produce called inclusion stories.

It's a five part series. Um, and I was able to visit some, uh, fully inclusive schools in the state of Washington and Maryland, uh, and then I, I shared some stories of families that have been advocating for their Children to be fully included. So Children with Down syndrome or Children with other significant, um, uh, support needs and, um, So I'm working with some, uh, some professors, uh, in, in some education programs and we are going to track, um, like changes in attitudes and beliefs about inclusion before and after they listen to the podcast series.

And so it just, what you said was, um, I hear that. I mean, I know, I think we instinctively know that podcasts. Uh, change our attitudes and beliefs, but I have not yet seen any research or data on that. And I think I'd like for more people to do that. So I love that. You know, just if anyone is listening, um, I want to do that.

So reach out to Andrew and Val and to me and we'll figure it out because I think that that is really powerful. We need to show podcasting is such a, a, such a, um, Important, uh, medium for, for growth like that. I think. Absolutely. All right. So let's talk about inclusive schools. Uh, we, you know, uh, like, like your podcast is you're thinking about what message parents will be taking away from your conversations.

Um, typically we have educators, uh, teachers, principals, district administrators that listen to think inclusive. And so. Um, as we're thinking about and having this conversation, um, I just want you to think about what message do you want to share with educators about inclusive schools? Um, and again, we typically focus on aspects about disability, um, ableism, um, how to create a more inclusive, uh, environment in our schools and districts.

Um, With the lens of a disability, where do you see, uh, what do you see as a barrier to more inclusive schools? And you can answer it, you know, at, you know, with your point of view as well. So, like, we don't necessarily have to talk about disability. Where are you, Andrew, like, in the world? 

Andrew Lefkowits: I'm that right now.

I'm actually in Oakland, California, and I'm traveling for work, but I, uh, yeah, 

Val Brown: Tim, where are you driving 

Andrew Lefkowits: down to San Diego today? 

Tim Villegas: Oh, are you so, uh, but are you, do you live in California? Typically 

Andrew Lefkowits: I live in, I live in Denver, Colorado. 

Tim Villegas: Oh, Denver. Yeah. I'm in Atlanta. Oh, nice. I'm in Charlotte, a suburb. So Marietta, if you're familiar, 

Val Brown: awesome.

Um, okay. So I heard you pass it to me. Um, so what are the barriers to, full inclusion in our schools. That's what I'm answering, right? Yeah. Okay. That's the question I'm answering. I'm just making sure we're good. Okay. Um, so I'm looking at this, um, from probably I'll start with my educator lens. So I'm a, uh, an educator by training, um, spent time as a classroom teacher, a district administrator, worked in a couple of non profits focused on education.

Um, and I think Teacher of 

Andrew Lefkowits: the year. I was teacher of the year for 

Val Brown: our school district. Yes. Um, and I, I have the opportunity to be in community with them. with lots of educators, um, all the time. And so I think one of the barriers, one of the significant barriers is, um, and I don't know if it's, I don't know if the chicken or the egg thing, but we aren't having enough conversations about disability and inclusion generally.

Now, I believe wholeheartedly, this should start, As early as possible in the same way that I believe the conversation should start as early as possible around race, right? And unfortunately, if you do not have a family unit where someone has a disability hidden or visible Most of the time, it's not going to come up in conversation, right?

Because our, our world and our schools are, are designed primarily for able bodied, uh, neurotypical folks. And so, we don't have the, the muscle to even engage in the conversation in a way that does not feel like it's an add on. Instead of, here's the fullness of our human experience. Here are all the different ways that we are human and how we show up.

And I. I, I personally, I, I beat myself up sometimes about this, about not knowing enough. Right. I'm like, dang it. If, you know, if there's any other language I should know, it should be sign language. Like what am I doing? Like, why don't I know that? Right. Um, I've, I've shared on the, on the podcast once I was diagnosed with, with hypertension, recognizing like the ableism that I had for myself, like I should be able to fix this.

I shouldn't have to like deal with this. I shouldn't need medication to like get through the day. And so constantly battling these ideas of ableism one, and then not having enough just regular conversation around it without feeling shame or ignorance or guilt or what all of those things that come up.

And so because we do not have those conversations. People rather like turn their head or pass it to a specialist and don't feel like it is their responsibility. And so I think that's a significant barrier to, to why this conversation isn't more prevalent. Um, I know on the podcast, and Andrew and I have talked about this before, we recognize like integrated schools means integrating all types of folks, right?

And so we are pushing ourselves to make sure we're not only talking about race, but that we're talking about, um, Other social identities as well, whether it's social economic status, ability, disability, et cetera. Andrew? 

Andrew Lefkowits: Mm hmm. Yeah, and I mean, that's certainly like a, a, a growing edge for us. You know, I think we, both Val and I come with some experience having conversations about race.

We don't have nearly as much experience or practice with conversations around disability. And so we have had fewer of them on the podcast, you know, I mean, you know, for making a podcast, like the things that you're comfortable talking about that seem interesting to you are the things that you just keep making episodes about.

And so we have really been pushing ourselves to, to broaden the, that conversation. Um, I think, you know, kind of from a, a parent caregiver perspective, thinking about barriers to more inclusive classrooms, I think about the, uh, The sense of pressure that we create around parenting and the the ways we communicate about how high the stakes are for our own kids.

And then you couple that with the ways that we we think that we're talking about things like school quality when really what we're talking about is things like. You know, race, racial or economic privilege. And so the messages that we get about what is or not good for kids tends to be focused around things like test scores, things, things like access to, you know, activities and whatnot and not things like access to Shared humanity, access to learning from people who are different from us.

And I think that, you know, that applies racially, that applies socioeconomically, that certainly applies with ability and disability. That, that, that the more we think that the stakes are really high for our kids and the only way to keep our kids sort of doing well, so to speak, is to give them these things that we think mean a good education, we end up pushing away from more inclusivity, pushing away from spaces where everyone is actually welcomed equally.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, yeah, I hear that, and it reminds me of the arguments sometimes from, uh, you know, educators and parents. The, the pushback that sometimes, um, districts who want to move forward with inclusive practices saying, no, if you, if those kids come into our classroom, um, it's, it's going to, we're going to have to water down the curriculum or we're going to, you know, everyone will suffer because those kids are coming in and diluting.

You know, the, the efficacy of what, uh, what I'm doing, uh, when, and so what, Andrew, what you said, uh, about like the stakes, right? The stakes feel really high. Um, but a lot of the times I, I feel like it's because people don't actually know how to integrate schools. They just, they just, uh, like whenever we talk about inclusion, especially, uh, like for just engaging with a, with a partner district or, or someone who's like, you know, kind of like on the edge thinking about, you know, doing this work, they automatically assume you're just going to put all the kids with significant support needs and disabilities in with everyone else and that's it, we're done and it's like, no, Why would you why would you think that right but but that is that is exactly what they think they think it's you're just putting everyone together.

And hooray, we've included the school, but there's so much more to that, and I know that y'all know that 

Andrew Lefkowits: I mean, the parallels to the conversations we have all the time are just sort of jumping out of you right now. We talk a lot about, like, the difference between desegregation and integration, right? Like, we can move bodies around.

And, and, you know, people will have the exact same thing conversations, you know, they won't, well, even nowadays, probably people will, but certainly like less likely to get the explicit, the black kids will bring it down. But there are certainly a lot of those kids conversations that happen around ideas of desecrated schools.

And then we know that just simply shoving a bunch of kids into a school building together into a classroom together is not the answer. You know, like giving kids an early opportunity to experience racism like earlier in their life is not the goal of true integration, right? So, so creating spaces that are welcoming, creating spaces that actually do the work, which is real work.

And I think to your point, right, we don't have great examples and we don't do great training. And like there, there's a skill set involved in creating truly inclusive spaces that, that I think probably applies no matter, you know, kind of on what dimension you are trying to include. 

Val Brown: Yeah, as you were, as you were speaking, I started to think about how, as adults, we're grown together in all of these different ways and how I just, I think that's why I have so much hope for schools as really being a place where we can learn how to be better together.

And, And so when we, when we come out of like a formal learning experience, um, that we aren't being harmful to others, that we are actually considering their humanity and what they have to offer because we've been taught that, um, in the places where it's most possible, right? So again, I, I mentioned like your family unit might not have someone of difference.

Everyone in your family might be exactly the same, right? And so your family won't necessarily be equipped to do it as well. as a school, right, that is really actively going after this work. And so, I think another barrier, and I, maybe this is tied to ableism, I have not, there's probably some research connected to it, um, is perfectionism, right?

We feel like we have to know it all perfectly before we attempt, before we attempt it at all, right? And I tell Andrew all the time, uh, white folks are going to make mistakes, like, let's just, let's just check that off, like, check, I've made lots of mistakes and I don't want, when we're talking about race, I don't want white folks to feel like I cannot engage in this conversation because I'm afraid I'm going to make a mistake.

You are going to make a mistake. And it's going to be painful. Someone's feelings are going to hurt, get hurt. Hopefully you'll have someone who has, um, grant you the grace to, to get you through it. But if not, there's a book I'm sure, right. You're right. And so they're, they're recognizing like, we're not going to be perfect at Be, um, trying to figure out how to make fully inclusive schools.

And yet we can not keep that, keep that from it. That cannot keep us from trying. There we go. 

Tim Villegas: Uh, let's talk about immigration for a second. 

Val Brown: Let's do it. 

Tim Villegas: Why not? Right. Why not 

Val Brown: do it? 

Tim Villegas: Okay. So, um, I don't know when this is going to post, but in the news recently, there's talk about specific, uh, Haitian immigrants that.

Over the last, I don't know, however many years have been moving to Springfield, Ohio, and there's been a lot of like really nasty, awful things said about. These immigrants, um, and I listened to the, you know, uh, Republican nominee, uh, for vice president say some of the same things that people say about inclusion in schools, uh, with, with, uh, people moving in, right, we're, we're talking about placement, right?

We're talking about where people actually have their places. Presence, um, like the, you know, the city was not equipped to, Receive 20, 000 Haitian immigrants or whatever, um, and, and not, not saying like, well, how do we, how do we equip this city to welcome these immigrants? That's not, that's not what the discussion is.

The discussion is, um, this should have never happened. Right. And it's the same argument that I hear. That well we're not equipped for these students we don't know how to support them um they need to go back to where they were before but again we don't we're not talking about well what do you need in order to support these learners what do you need uh and how how can we equip you uh how can you feel equipped to um to welcome these students so anyways.

Um, I try not to get too political on this, um, podcast, but I think that I, I think that that was, uh, a relevant example. 

Val Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Um, this past week I reached out to several of my Haitian American friends, just to apologize for us being the shithole country. Um, because, um, it's, it, it, and I listened to another, um, NPR article, this, this, our story this morning, just about the impact of, uh, The rhetoric that is happening in, um, Springfield, Ohio pause real quick.

I don't know if I can say that S word on the podcast. It was, I don't, I do not, I love America. I will. I love America. 

Tim Villegas: I will either put an explicit on this episode or I'll bleep it out. I don't know. Also, please let the people know I 

Val Brown: do love America. That's not what I'm saying. I also 

Tim Villegas: love America, as long as we're talking about on the record, on the record, everyone 

Val Brown: here loves America.

Everybody on here loves America. Okay. USA. USA. Whoa, 

Andrew Lefkowits: whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't say that. 

Val Brown: The two people of color on here love America. Okay. That's all we got. That's all we got. Um, so I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll go over it, but I apologize to, I apologize. I apologize. Bye. I apologize to my Haitian American friends about the rhetoric that is happening, um, around their, their culture and their community.

Um, because it's devastating. We know that there's a significant number of bomb threats of public places, including schools that is happening as a result of this rhetoric. Um, and that folks are just trying to live their lives. And so when you, when you mention You know, the city wasn't equipped, I go back to, to what I shared earlier around, like, when you said that initially, I was like, okay, does any more housing, like, you know, what was, what, what wasn't, how was the city not ready?

And, you know, what I gather is the people were not ready, because, again, we have not taken the time to say, like, there are so many beautiful examples of humanity in our world. And we are struggling right now as a country to teach not only U. S. history, but world history. Um, we are struggling to, um, find ways to communicate across difference.

We instead decide that we're going to ban those conversations. We don't want to have them at all. And it's so short sighted. And maybe it's not short sighted for the folks who are advocating for that. But it feels so short sighted for folks who are going along with it and, and not fighting for a different outcome, right?

Um, Because we will get nowhere if we don't get there together. I believe that wholeheartedly. Um, and so it saddens me that that same rhetoric that you're hearing about Haitian Americans or Haitian immigrants in Springfield is also what you hear when it comes to. Creating inclusive places for, um, disabled students and, and I'm not surprised, right?

Um, I'm not surprised. I think what pains me is the, like the vitriol that you hear from educators and other adults to children who literally are here, not of their own doing, you know, who have shown up in their, their. And in their full humanity and pushing them away and so I get real sassy with educators who use that type of language, um, regardless of what, who the, they are othering at the time, because that is not why you're here.

I prefer you not be in the space if that's the energy that you're going to bring. Um, and I want you to be. I want those educators to be adult enough to say, here's what I don't know. Here's what I need to know. Here's what I'm willing to know. Um, because I am here to love and educate children, um, as part of my profession.

And breaking news, even if you're not an educator, you still have to figure out how to do it. You still have to figure out how to do it because our world will continue to be a diverse one in which we will have people. Join our communities that may not have lived there before. We'll have to figure out a way.

And I'm using air quotes because it baffles me. It like truly baffles me. If you've moved to any other city ever, um, you know that like the city has an opportunity to welcome you, right? People in the city have an opportunity to welcome you. Um, and you don't want people to say, Hey, you're not originally from Atlanta, get out of here.

Right. And I, I don't, I help me. This is when I get a headache. So I get, I regularly get just oppression, headaches, , white supremacy headaches during our interviews. 

Andrew Lefkowits: Oh 

Val Brown: no, Andrew, help me out. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. You see, I'm getting, you see, I'm getting frustrated. Andrew, you see I'm getting 

Andrew Lefkowits: frustrated. I feel it coming on.

You need to my need it. 

Val Brown: I need breathe. . . 

Andrew Lefkowits: I mean, I think the, I think, I think it is, it is. Yes, it is shortsighted. Um, the, it is, it is easy to play on people's fears. There is some sort of And I don't know, like I sometimes wonder how much I'm really willing to buy into, like some sort of natural tendency to, you know, fear, quote unquote, other.

Yeah, I think there was like probably something in human nature about that, but like we overcome human nature about all sorts of things all the time. That is something that can also be, I mean, I think the, to me, the, the, the, you know, it's where is the desire to overcome that come from? And this is back to what Val was saying earlier about the power of schools, the potential in a school space.

Thanks. It's like, what a great spot to show the next generation of politicians, the next generation of police officers, the next generation of, you know, doctors and civic leaders when they're in school to show them that their life, their world, that we are all better off. When everyone has a spot at the table, there's not a risk to losing yourself when you welcome somebody else in, actually yourself grows bigger, that your ability to see the world broadens, that your ability to understand the human experience is richer and broader by welcoming people in.

And if that's the mindset that we can instill in kids in by creating that schools, and again, it's not just about shoving them together. It's not just about putting 20, 000 Haitian immigrants into Springfield. It's about what does it look like when they get there, how we're creating systems and structures and, and a mindset whereby we can all benefit.

Because if we do that. Then Springfield's a much better place because of it. Our schools are much better places because of it. Eventually our country is a much better place because of it. But we have to go in with that mindset that, that, that the payoff is worth it. Yeah. It's going to be, it's going to take some work.

There's going to be some adjustment. We're going to have to, you know, change how certain things work in order to accommodate. But if we do, we're all better off for it in the end. 

Val Brown: I was just daydreaming about, um, signs all over the city that said like, we're so glad you're here. Welcome to Springfield. And how.

That alone would make a significant difference, not only for the folks who are moving to Springfield, but also for the community itself to see, like. Hey, we, who doesn't want, I mean, I'm sure there's people who don't want to be welcoming. I'm a Libra. I always want to be welcoming, um, And so it, it would just make a significant difference and, and that same energy in our schools, right?

We're so glad you're here. Um, you are welcomed here. I remember, um, I had a, as a classroom teacher, I looped With my students and looping for listeners means like you teach them say in like 6th grade and then you move up with them as a teacher to 7th grade and then 8th grade. So I had looped with these, this group of, um, this group of students from 6th grade to 8th grade.

And whenever we got a new student, um, especially in 8th grade, we had to stop who we were to make sure that there was a real orientation because we understand that you are coming into a community that has been together for 3 years already. Right. You are absolutely going to feel like the outsider if we don't stop and let you know, Hey, we welcome you just as you are.

Everybody here is as goofy as you think we are, you know, and you belong here as well. Right. And, and that takes intentionality. Um, and that's certainly, you know, maybe, maybe it's not something the mayor is thinking about, but it's certainly what educators can think about in each of their classrooms. Right.

And it. I, I believe it helps people not only feel welcome, but feel special and recognizes that everyone in that room in that classroom has value that we, um, we appreciate and we want to include in our community.

Tim Villegas: Andrew, did you want to add anything? 

Andrew Lefkowits: Well, yeah, I mean, I would, I, I think about, um, we had, uh, Dr. Chanette Porter on the podcast and she's got a bunch of research around belonging and, you know, a sense of, of, of inclusion and belonging. And she talks about, you know, that. The true belonging is about the space is different because you are in it, 

Val Brown: the 

Andrew Lefkowits: space changes.

There's one thing to say, you are allowed into this space that is not going to shift in any way, but you truly belong when you have made the space different in some 

Val Brown: way. 

Andrew Lefkowits: And I think that's the, that's the vision that we have to hold on to is like, how, how is your, you're welcome here. We're glad you're here and we're ready for things.

It's again, you know, like the more kind of, uh, like out of control, the world feels, the more we want to hold on to the things that we know and the more change feels. You know, dangerous or scary or whatever, but to embrace it and say, yeah, this place is going to be different because you're here. And that's good because we think that the different is actually going to be better that that we can hold on to that kind of idea of true belonging at.

Yeah, I mean, I certainly have thought about it since we had her on thought about it a lot in the context of schools. But I think it's also true in the context of neighborhoods in the context of cities in the context of the country. 

Val Brown: Yeah, I want to I want to talk a little bit about power to as well. And so Um, when you are in a place of privilege, like a, a social identity with any privilege and you're learning, right?

And you're, you're trying to grow, you have the opportunity to use your power differently. And so, um, What I think is common amongst white folks who are recognizing this, my, my dear co host as well, is that you recognize, Hey, we need to elevate some voices of color in this space because I recognize I have the power to do that.

There's brilliant black women and black men out here that we aren't learning from and we're gonna center them in our, our conversation. I had the opportunity to host a conference for educators, um, a couple of years ago and I said, you know what? One of our speakers is going to be a Deaf person, capital D, right?

Like, and we are going to be the ones that will figure it out, right? So, we want to send, like, we want it to be very normal that we are learning from a Deaf educator. She is speaking sign language. We have the interpreter for us. It's not the other way around, right? And so, I think when you recognize, like, you're learning, right?

We often talk on the podcast, like, we don't want the learning to just Stop here with a, you just listening to us. We do want you to go out into the community and take some action, recognize that you have some power to do this. And a lot of that is elevating the perspectives and the stories as you all are doing here on the podcast of folks who might not have center stage, um, because we're taking up all the space.

And so use your power that feels important to say,

Tim Villegas: I'm interested in why this work is important to each of you. You usually have a reason. So. Who'd like to go first, um,

Andrew Lefkowits: yeah, I mean, I think I have, I have like two versions of the story, one of which is, has like a whole lot of more like of, of my own choosing. And then I kind of look at where I grew up and my family and these other pieces, I realized that maybe I wasn't actually, I didn't actually have as much say in it as I, as I like to give myself credit for, you know, but, um, I, I was one of a small handful of white kids in my elementary school.

More white kids by, by the time I got to high school. But certainly that experience shaped me in all sorts of ways. And I would not say it was like a perfectly inclusive educational environment. Um, but it certainly, you know, had a lasting impact on me. It was something that I wanted for my kids. Um, and I think, I mean, in some ways I care about this because of Nicole Hannah Jones, to be honest.

She, her podcast, This American Life, in 2016, I think, The Problem We All Live With, Um, I was not really thinking about education, thinking about school. I was like, okay, like, we'll, we'll follow what everybody says, what all the messages are, which is like, get your kid into the quote unquote best school, which inevitably means the whitest and wealthiest school that you can.

And Podcast and her writing and her work since then made me realize that there was really tension between my sort of social justice minded values that I had, that I had, you know, come up with and the messaging that I was getting about what it meant to be a good parent, about what it meant to do the best for my kid.

And I think it was, you know, in trying to grapple with that tension and say like, why, why, why, first of all, why do these things feel like they're tension? And why does all the messaging say I shouldn't even look at that as tension? I shouldn't even think about that there is tension there. And, and that was like the spark of curiosity that led me to find integrated schools in the first place that, you know, has led me into these conversations with Val and to kind of try to learn as much as really to, to try to understand the, these competing messages that I was getting as a, as a parent.

Val Brown: No, that's awesome. At a community 

Andrew Lefkowits: level. 

Val Brown: That's an awesome answer. Um, and, and you, um, Make me reflect like I don't know when the I don't know when this started for me either All right, like like when did it actually start? What are the the inciting incidents says that? Got me to this place I'll speak of one.

Um, and it was, uh, we were, we were going to our neighborhood school and my, my son was going to go to our neighborhood school just literally one block over, um, for kindergarten. And we were driving by, um, the school one day and I was like, hey, that's where you're going to go to kindergarten. And his first question ever to me about race, um, was, will I have a Brown teacher?

It was his, literally his first question ever about race. And, you know, we had talked about race. He, he knew we were Black people. You know, we had representation in the home with our books and stuff, but that was like the first actual question he asked me about it. And. At that moment, um, that actually coincided with a couple of different things, because February of that year, um, Trayvon Martin was killed in our school district, so in our county across the street from one of our, uh, schools, um, and I had been named, like, District Teacher of the Year, so I felt that point of, like, how am I going to use my platform and my voice in this moment To help answer, to help answer this kid's question and the truth to that answer was he had two opportunities because I knew the schools, I knew the elementary school, the middle school where I worked in the high school, he had to, he had two opportunities to have a brown teacher that were like, almost guaranteed one was me in middle school, one was his father in the high school and, and I felt so convicted to do something in that moment.

And, and to Andrew's point, like, I think we, our, our family lines and the, and the decisions that our, our parents have made and our grandparents have made have led us to be action oriented, social justice oriented. people. And so when one of those things happen in your life, you just feel like it's go time, right?

You're like, I, this, this has this go time. I have been exposed. I know more. I am wired to do something about it. Um, and so I'm going to try and I, I, I want to leave audiences with that listeners with that. Like our attempts are just that we are just trying Andrew's like I got some skills on the podcast Yeah, sign me up and I'm like, hey, I know a couple of people that I can Ask questions to and try to push the conversation forward.

Um, and that's really what this work requires. Um, from each of us. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Do do what you can with what you have. That's it. Right. And and your strengths. 

Val Brown: That's it. I was 

Tim Villegas: just I was just talking about this, uh, actually on the as a reflection on. Uh, one of the recent episodes, um, about the having audio experience and now learning video, because that's a whole other thing.

Um, I really love it. I love it. And so it's not, it's not a heavy lift for me. Um, and this is how I can contribute, right? So what are your strengths? What are the things that you're good at? That you can move this work forward, whatever your context is. Um, and you don't have to wait to be a leader. Like you don't have to have, you don't have to be a principal.

You don't have to be a superintendent. It would be great if you were, but you know, you just got to start with what you have and with, uh, your circle of influence. So, um, really appreciate. Yeah, go ahead. 

Val Brown: I was going to say it and it, and you can make this difference outside of education as well. So I like to, to go for walks on trails, right?

How can I advocate for more inclusive trails so that other folks with different abilities can also enjoy the trail, right? Um, and, and so it can be around whatever your passion area is. It doesn't only have to be in schools. Cause again, we're, we're trying to make a beautiful, inclusive world, you know, not only, not only classrooms.

Andrew Lefkowits: And it takes all of us, like the only way we get there is together, right? So everybody's got, got a role to play in it. 

Tim Villegas: Beautiful. Um, where can people find Integrated Schools? 

Andrew Lefkowits: Yeah, IntegratedSchools. org is our website. Um, our podcast is there. You can find the podcast, the Integrated Schools podcast, at everywhere you get your podcasts.

We're there. Um, we are always looking to hear your own stories. If, you know, something in this conversation that we just had just sparked something from you and you think that we should talk about on the podcast. We have a, uh, voicemail line speakpipe. com slash integrated schools. People can leave us voice memos.

We're always, uh, love to hear from listeners, um, about the things they're grappling with because we believe that the. You know, the podcast should be a place for community conversation, and we're always looking to grow that community. 

Val Brown: Tim, we gotta get you a co host. 

Andrew Lefkowits: That's right. 

Val Brown: We gotta get you a co host.

It's really 

Tim Villegas: lovely. It is lovely. I, I do, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I need to bring, I need to bring more people in. Uh, what I haven't done is done like a co host and interviewed a guest. So I think that that is, that's the next thing I need to do. So, um, are you, y'all up for a mystery question? 

Val Brown: Okay.

All right. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. All right. So I have a stack of prompt cards. 

Val Brown: Okay. And my hands are not Googling anything. 

Tim Villegas: Nope. Nope. This is, they're mostly, they're mostly fine. Okay. Um, if there's anything that's uncomfortable, we just veto it and we just move on. 

Val Brown: And 

Tim Villegas: so, uh, I'll read the question and then, um, we'll, I'll answer it.

Here we go. Mystery question. What is the most important thing to carry with you all the time? 

Val Brown: Let's 

Tim Villegas: see if we can put that on this camera. What is the most important thing to carry? What's interesting. I thought this question was going to say, what's the most important thing to you to carry all the time?

But this is like more broad. So I don't know. Okay. Right. However you want to answer it, to be honest, cause you know, there's no, there's no mystery question, police. 

Val Brown: Okay. Okay. 

Tim Villegas: What is the most important thing? 

Andrew Lefkowits: I, I wish it wasn't so, but like the thing that I am, the only thing that makes me panic if I'm not carrying it is my phone.

Yeah. 

Val Brown: Yeah. 

Andrew Lefkowits: Yeah, I wish that 

Val Brown: was on the case. No, you can come up with better answers than that. 

Tim Villegas: I mean, that is, yeah, that is what came to my mind first. I have this thing. Um, I, I'm, I'm the kind of person that loses stuff, um, and it gets really panicky if I, like, realize that I lost, lost something. So I, I always have.

Like, I'm always checking, right? Always checking. Do I have my phone? Do I have my keys? Do I have my wallet? Always. And, uh, and so, I guess, like, practically speaking, those things would be, you know, the most important, but, um, that's not that great of an answer. Right, right, 

Val Brown: right. I feel like there's, there's better answers to this question, um, because, yeah, my first thought.

Went to a personal one. I was like, well, I need my EpiPen. Um, 

Tim Villegas: oh yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's, that, yes, that feels important, but, um, 

Val Brown: but if we're doing, if it's, if it's generic, um, Think the most important, and we're not talking about like phones and keys and wallets, right? We know that's important. And I also wanted to say hand sanitizer, but that's like post pandemic for me.

Right. I was like, I need some hand sanitizer. I don't feel great. Um, and then this, this mystery question is just, I'm failing at it, but what it, what it challenged me to do was to like, let me not carry anything. Let me see how it feels to not carry anything and be out in the world and not feel like I am beholden to a thing.

Yeah. And again. Not your, not your ID and your keys, but you know, can I walk through the world without feeling like I have to carry anything and how does that open me up to seeing more of the world? You know, um, I recently took a solo trip to New York City and I've been to the city many times, but for whatever reason I was like, I was, I was open and I'm like, Oh my gosh, look at all the examples of humanity, a man spitting on the street, pigeons, right?

Like I was like, everything, everything was like, Beautiful and a miracle, right? I was like, I didn't know they did that here. Oh my gosh, listen to the way they put those curse words together. Why didn't I, why did I notice this before? And so, yeah, that's, that's my challenge to myself. Like, can I, can I leave the house, you know, again, key in the pocket, ID in the pocket, God forbid, anything happens when I'm like out and just.

Like be out and because I want my answer to be, I want my answer to be like a good attitude, open eyes, you know, like, Oh, that's what I want my answer to be. Yeah, 

Andrew Lefkowits: that's it. It's like you, yeah, what you, what you should, the most important thing to carry with you is, is like joy and wonder and belief that the world can be a good place that 

Tim Villegas: you 

Andrew Lefkowits: belong in it.

Tim Villegas: Yes, absolutely. Uh, I was thinking I didn't carry anything when I was a kid. 

Val Brown: Right. You're right. 

Tim Villegas: Cause I grew up in the eighties and you didn't have phones. Nope. I didn't even have a wallet, you know, like maybe quarters in my pocket to like go play video games. Yeah. So like, yeah. And so just wandering around.

And like riding my bike or whatever, like I didn't, I didn't carry anything except myself. So yeah, yeah, 

Val Brown: I have, um, this conversation connected to our earlier conversation, um, to me with immigrants and I, this, this lyric from the Hamilton mix state says, I'm no dummy. Here's something funny. You can be an immigrant without risking your lives or crossing these borders with thrifty, thrifty supplies.

All you got to do is see the world with new eyes. And, uh, yeah, that's where I am. Yeah. 

Tim Villegas: There you go. Yep. I love it. I love it. All right. See, we turned that mystery question around. That's right. Really? 

Val Brown: Really? 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. We nailed it. We nailed it. Val Brown and Andrew Lefkowits. Thank you so much for spending time with me on the Think Inclusive podcast.

Thank you. 

Val Brown: Thank you. This has been great. 

Tim Villegas: Great conversation.

​

Welcome back folks here is normally where I put three for me and two for you, a segment where I provide three reflections and two calls to action. I'm going to hit pause on this segment for the foreseeable future for a couple of different reasons. Uh, number one, it takes considerable time to write the reflections.

And I want to focus more time on producing more episodes for you and timelier episodes like the one we did with Glenna Wright Gallo about the U S department of education and the webinar we did about what's next for IDEA. And since I don't have unlimited time, something has to go.

The other thing is I, I'm not entirely sure that the reflections are useful to you. So. If it's something you want back, let me know about it, because I'd love to know more feedback about how to make these episodes more useful for you.

Thanks for your understanding. That's it for this episode of Think Inclusive, time for the credits. Think Inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed, and mastered by me, Tim Villegas, and is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, original music by Miles Kredich, additional music from Melod.ie.

Thank you to our sponsor IXL, learn more at ixl dot com slash inclusive. We appreciate each and every one of you that listens. And we'd love to hear from you about how you are using these episodes. Are you using them for a class that you teach? Are you sending them to your family, friends, and colleagues?

Is there a particular episode that really resonated with you? Let us know. You can always reach out to me at tvillegas at mcie dot org. That's t v i l l e g a s at mcie dot org. And if you are listening this far into the episode, it probably means that you love Think Inclusive and the work that MCIE is doing. So can I ask a favor?

Help us keep it going by donating at our website, mcie dot org. There's a button at the top of our site. Click that and chip in $5, $10, $20. It would mean a whole lot to us, the children in the schools and districts we partner with. Okay. Thanks so much for your time and attention and remember inclusion always works. 

​