Amada + Emily w cap === Emily Kircher-Morris: When we talk about neurodiversity affirming, neurodiverse describes spaces, all types of brains, all neuro types, and there's overlap. In the general education classroom, there are neurodivergent students who don't have a label because they don't need an individualized education program. What works for neurodivergent kids is going to be good for, for most kids, and having those options and tools and strategies available is good for not only the kids, but also the teachers. Amanda Morin: I think inherently what we're trying to do. In neurodiversity affirming environments is to normalize all the things, right? All kinds of minds in classrooms. So I think to some degree, what it does is it really equalizes that component of things and says, you know, everybody has reasons that they need different ways of learning. If we build those into the spaces in which they're learning. We are not only combating the idea that certain kids need different things, but we're also combating the idea that there are certain reasons people need those things. Tim Villegas: Hi friends. I'm Tim Villegas. This is Think Inclusive, and what you just heard was a clip from our guests this week, Emily Kircher Morris and Amanda Morin. Authors of the book Neurodiversity Affirming Schools. Amanda Morin is a neurodivergent neurodiversity activist, an award-winning author, early childhood and behavioral specialist, certified teacher, and nationally known speaker, deeply committed to fostering accessible and inclusive environments for neurodivergent individuals. She works with print and digital media, educational professionals and parents, empowering them to affirm the pivotal roles they play in building knowledge about mental health, neurodiversity and disability. Emily Kircher Morris, LPC is the host of the Neurodiversity podcast, which explores the psychological, educational and social needs for enriching the lives of neurodivergent people. She's the author of several books for parents and educators related to the development of children and teens who are neurodivergent and cognitively gifted. She started her career in education and now works as a mental health counselor in private practice outside of St. Louis, Missouri. Specializing in supporting Neurodivergent twice exceptional and gifted people of all ages. We're thrilled, uh, to have you here, whether you are listening to or watching Think Inclusive MCIE's podcast that brings you conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. In this episode of the Think Inclusive Podcast, Emily, Amanda and I discuss their book, neurodiversity Affirming Schools. The conversation explores their origin story, how they met through social media, and how their complimentary backgrounds in twice exceptional education and special education advocacy led them to co-author the book. Our discussion covers various aspects of neurodiversity in schools, emphasizing the importance of identity, first language, reducing ableism and collaboration among educators. We also reflect on behavior management strategies, co-regulation, and the need for mental health awareness, and the importance of small, impactful changes in educational practices. Before we get into my conversation with Amanda and Emily, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this season iXL. IXL is a fantastic all in one platform designed for K 12 education. It helps boost student achievement and empowers teachers and tracks progress seamlessly. Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources. Well that's IXL, as students practice, IXL adapts to their individual needs and ensuring they are both supported and challenged. Plus, each learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively address any knowledge gaps. Interested in learning more, visit IXL.com/inclusive. That's IXL.com/inclusive. All right. After a short break, we'll jump into my conversation with Amanda Morin and Emily Kircher morris, catch you on the other side. Emily Kircher Morris and Amanda Morin, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast. Emily Kircher-Morris: Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Yeah. Tim Villegas: I've been so looking forward to this conversation. Uh, Amanda, you and I go way, way back. I don't know even how long at this point? Way decade. Decade. At least Amanda Morin: a decade. Yeah. Yeah, Tim Villegas: yeah. Uh, and Emily and I met for the first time in person at the CEC conference. In San Antonio. Mm-hmm. I didn't know that. 2024. Amazing. Mm-hmm. Just, just briefly, just briefly, I, I, I hung out outside of your, uh, session to stalk you and you're like, who is this person? Why is he talking to me? Emily Kircher-Morris: That is not true. That is not, that's not how that, but no, that was, it was lovely. Are you, yeah. And, and, uh, coming up here, that was almost a year ago because it's coming up here in a few weeks. Tim Villegas: It's coming up here. Yeah. Will, will you be at CCC CC? Both. We both. We both we're presenting, Emily Kircher-Morris: yeah. Yeah. Amanda Morin: The Emily Kircher-Morris: two of us. Really? Tim Villegas: Yeah. I'll be there. Amanda Morin: Yay. Yay. Tim Villegas: Yes, both. And, uh, Carolyn Telan. Um, our CEO will be there, so. Oh, amazing. So we'll need to, yeah, we'll need to carve out some time. Perfect. Yeah. Perfect. Excellent. All right. Tim Villegas: I know that this probably won't come out, you know, so we're gonna be celebrating after the fact. We've already seen each other and it was wonderful. But, um, anyway, so I've, we've established how I know each of you individually, but I'd love to know, how do you all know each other? Um, and then you can lead right into the origin story of why we're here today, which is your book. And I'm gonna hold it up really quick because it's video and I like to do that. It is, uh, neurodiversity Affirming Schools, um, which is a fantastic book, and thank you for sending this to me. Um, so, so tell me how do you know each other, and then how did, how did this, uh, relationship, um, factor into this book? Amanda Morin: So we met. Through social media, like just sort of very similar, just like everybody, right? I was like, just like everybody, right? Yeah. We met through social media. We work in peripheral spaces, right? So Emily and Emily can tell you more about what she does, but she works. She was working primarily in the twice exceptionality gifted education space. At that time, I was still working at understood.org, so I was working in the learning disabilities, ADHD, special education space, and we met through those professional learning communities that developed on social media, realized we had a lot in common, a lot of ideas in common, a lot of personal life things in common. You know, we're both raising neurodivergent kids, our husbands are sort of a version of the same person in some strange way, and just realized we had a lot of things that we could continue to talk about. Outside of social media. The interesting thing is we continue those conversations. You know, I was a guest on Emily's podcast, the Neurodiversity podcast, more than a few times. We continue those conversations sort of through email, chat, you know, conversations on the phone. We literally didn't meet in person until we actually started writing this book. We were halfway through the book and didn't meet until in person. Wow. Emily Kircher-Morris: And what we did when we met was we went and locked ourselves in an Airbnb for a, a, a, an extended like writing, uh, retreat because we just were like, okay, we have to like, you know, focus and, and you know how it is just being in, in person is a little bit of a different experience. But yeah, it was, I mean, it was, it was a risk. Right. Amanda Morin: You know, we didn't know what, what, we didn't know what our, you know, our in-person chemistry would be like to sit down and write a book together. However, we did know that our ideas were complimentary enough that Emily was the one who was like, there's a book here. There's a book here. And Emily, do you wanna talk a little bit about. How you, yeah, yeah. And Emily Kircher-Morris: so I, you know, I had this idea and I, you know, through my podcast, the Neurodiversity podcast, um, and my background in education, we, we focus a lot on educational practices. And so, um, I just knew it was like, there's nothing out there that was really focused on. Neurodivergent kids and how to really support them. Um, but I also knew that it wasn't something that I thought I could, I could take on, on my own. And so, um, I, like I said, I, I think Amanda was kind of the, the perfect fit for just our past experiences coming together. I'm also a mental health counselor, so I pull that side of things in as well. Um, and so I, we were, I don't know, I think we were, I don't know. I was in an airport. I think you were in an airport. I was in an airport, different airports. Nice. And I called you and I, I was like, can we talk? And so I threw it out there and you had, of course, a million things on your plate. And I'm like, I don't wanna add anything, but would you be interested in, in writing this? And, um, you know, and so then we, we kind of got a proposal together and got it sent in and then, then we were committed. 'cause we had a contract, then we had to finish it as it goes. But, uh, yeah, it was. Amanda Morin: It was kind of a cool process and one of the things that was really cool about writing this book and interestingly, sort of the title changed over time, right? As you write a book. Mm-hmm. The title changes over time and you know, we really loved the neurodiversity affirming practices component of it because it included sort of all of the, the minds in a classroom. But one of the things that worked out really well, the two of us writing the book together, is having those complimentary perspectives. Right? So, Emily comes with a different perspective than I do. I come from having the special education background and understanding sort of the laws and the components of that and the parent advocacy component. Emily also has, you know, family work in her background, but just being able to put together the, you know, even just the difference between identification and diagnostic kind of criteria was just a really good starting point. I think I always wanna stress this when we talk about it, is we didn't always agree on everything when we were writing this book. And I think that's an important ingredient of the book when people read it, is to be able to understand that. Even between the two authors, there were things that we had to discuss, we had to talk about, we had to think about, we had to, had to come to some sort of consensus around or not Right. To be able to say, this is important to you as an idea. And I, and I, I'm okay with that. Tim Villegas: Yeah. I am interested in what you said about the, the disagreements. Um, and I feel like we as a society don't disagree very well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tim Villegas: So, I'm wondering, and I don't wanna get too off topic here, but I am interested in how you. Resolve those, or at least we are rust made it, made it work, or whoever won Got it. Into the book. Okay, got it. Amanda Morin: Notes. Emily Kircher-Morris: Rock, paper, Amanda Morin: scissors. Emily Kircher-Morris: Rock paper, scissors, Amanda Morin: lizard, Spock. Actually, yes. Yes. No. Emily Kircher-Morris: Um, I mean, I think it's fair to say that because we both had a similar starting point, even when we had those disagreements, I think we were coming at it at an angle that, that it, it was never, I don't know, too difficult to resolve some of those things. Um, I, I, you know, I'm trying to remember some of them off the top of my head. Of course, I can't think of them Amanda Morin: well on this spot. You know, and I would say, I would say regardless of what we weren't sure we were agreeing on, one of the things we did, it was use one of the practices we talk about in the book, which is making sure we understood each other's communication styles. Right. And that was super, super important because. You know, each of us have our way of communicating. And one of the things that I really like about a partnership with Emily is she will dig deeper if she doesn't understand what I'm saying. Right. And, and I think that, you know, same, I will do the same. Right? Mm-hmm. And so being able to understand that maybe there was more agreement underneath it, if we just got to the right words in the right understanding of what the ideas were, was actually the bigger piece of it. Mm-hmm. Than actually realizing like we had tremendous disagreement. 'cause we really didn't, what we did, what we did have is different ways of talking about things. Mm-hmm. And a need to understand. What we were each talking about. Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think that that's really important, Amanda. I think you, because another one of the strategies we talk about in the book is explicit instruction, but just being really explicit and direct. And the nice thing was we developed a rapport where me asking Amanda like, well, what do you mean by that? Like, it was never interpreted as anything other than, what do you mean by that? Right? By that there, like there was no other connotation there. But I feel like sometimes when you can't, when you can't communicate that way with somebody, when there's all of this other, um, implicit meaning with what people are saying, it actually really creates some barriers. And so, um, I think that that was another thing that we kind of really were able to do. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. The, the language that we use to describe whatever it is that we're thinking about or, or feeling, um, may not be another person's language. So, mm-hmm. Being open to figuring out what that means. I think that there, I think there's a lesson there, y'all. So, yeah, just saying, uh, I'd like to talk a little bit more about language, um, and how the language that we use in schools can support learners. Um, and I will give you an example and, and maybe you can reflect on this example. So when I was a teacher, I, um, mostly taught in like segregated self-contained classrooms, uh, for students, um, on the autism spectrum. Um, and I was called by many, many a teacher, um, an autism teacher, right? Mm-hmm. Um, there are. Uh, educators in schools that are called inclusion teachers. Um, and sometimes we even call like, well, that's the AU kid. That was something that we, that, that was talked about a lot in the school that I was in AU as a, as the acronym or designation, not an acronym, but, um, like letter designations of the diagnos diagnosis of autism. I'm wondering, um, how do we kind of reframe the language that we use that seems to feel, it seems to me that it could other, um, teachers, other, um, learners, like how can we use language in maybe a more productive way? Emily Kircher-Morris: I think one of the pieces that really has come out of the neurodiversity movement and that Amanda and I talk about in the book, um, is first of all for students, when we're talking about diagnoses, um, we, there are some little shifts, but they are small. So for example, um, we talk a lot about using identity first language instead of person first language when we're talking about these diagnoses, which is interesting because as educators, as mental health professionals, as, um, people who've kind of gone, gone through to be professionally trained to work with people with disabilities, there's always also this, this component. We, we are taught to use person first language. So a student with autism or a child with ADHD or whatever it might be, and what has come through the self-advocates who are part of the neurodiversity movement really has been, I. This embracing and destigmatizing of those labels. And, um, a, a, a desire to use identity first language. So talking about an autistic student or an ADHDer, um, because recognizing like those aren't things that are ever going to be cured. They're not going, that they're part of who that person is, Amanda Morin: nor should Emily Kircher-Morris: they, so Amanda Morin: what nor nor should they, like, I, I just wanna Right. Add that in there too. Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah. And, um. And I think that that is part of it because the language that we use really does convey our values about things. And when we say, oh, well, you know, this is a person who has autism, it really does send a different message. Um, beyond that, another example of some, some of the language that we shifted was, you'll hear people often talk about, um, neurotypical, like, so you talk about neurodivergent students and then in comparison, um, to neurotypical students. And we actually did not use the term neurotypical in the book, and that was intentional. We actually moved to using the term neuron normative peers when in compared to their non-normative peers because typical. Kind of indicates like there's a right way to be, or this is the way that that things should be. Um, whereas neuron normative, I think brings it more into the statistical sense where we're looking at a particular trait and on any particular trait, you have a bell curve and you've got, you know, um, outliers on either side of, of whatever that trait is. And so we really tried to, to shift that as well. Amanda Morin: And I would add to your point of othering, right? So as you were talking about that, Tim, what I was thinking about is it really isn't othering, right? It's an othering of our students. It's an othering of our teachers. One of the other things that, and I do this often, we did in the book as well, is I do a gentle correction of the regular classroom, right? We talk about the regular classroom, and I'm very careful to, right, to make sure that I'm talking about general education classrooms versus special education. Segregated or resource room classrooms. Right. Because I think that if we talk about the idea of a regular classroom, then mm-hmm. Everything else outside of that is not regular. It's irregular. It's not. Right. So when you talk about like the autism teacher or the inclusion teacher, that's othering of the teachers as well. And I think for me, I wanna make sure that people understand we're all teachers, right? And every one of us on this conversation, we've been teachers, we've taught in different kinds of classrooms, but our goal is to make sure that we are making, having. Our goal is to make sure we are giving learners an opportunity to access information, to make sense of it, regardless of where we are teaching that learner. Um, and for me, I think it's really important that we recognize we're all teachers first and we're all teaching learners. And those learners are all there to learn. And it doesn't matter to me as much what the classroom is, right? So I think if we, if we're not gonna other students, we probably should be careful not to other teachers as well, especially because it, it takes away from the collaboration that we need to see, you know? Uh, special education teachers, and you know this because you've been a special education teacher in a classroom, can feel really othered, right? Because they're, they're away from the general education classroom. There's sort of a specialized knowledge expectation that goes with being a special education teacher, but like, we wanna fit in, we wanna be part of the club, right? Like, Tim Villegas: yeah, yeah, yeah. Emily Kircher-Morris: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And can I, and I I would just add too though, I think a big, when we talk about being neurodiversity affirming, neurodiverse describes spaces, it describes all types of brains, all neuro types, and there's so much overlap. The, in the general education classroom setting, there are definitely neurodivergent students who probably don't have a label because they don't necessarily rise to the point where they need an individualized education program. Right. Like, it, it's, it's different for them. Um, and I feel like so much, so Amanda mentioned, I kind of came from the gifted ed world. That was kind of where, where I started and I spent some of my career teaching. And I know I also felt that othering I was, I was kind of on the outside of it. And I now it's like as I kind of built more into the twice exceptional in the neurodivergent world, I'm going, okay, there are OTs at the school, there are SLPs at the school, there are all of these other people. And it's like, why are we not collaborating and bringing all of these resources and tools together to support students because I. Again, what works for neurodivergent kids? What works for kids in, in special education, like is going to be good for, for most kids? And having those, um, options and tools and strategies available is good for not only the kids, but also the teachers. I, Tim Villegas: I, I love what, uh, both of you had to say about the, about language and, and, and, you know, special education teachers feeling like they want to be a part of the, the, the school community. And I'm wondering, as you're describing, uh, neurodiversity affirming schools and, and spaces, right? Um, this idea that a school or a setting can work for a wide variety of students, um, it seems to be. Like anti ableist in nature. Um, and when you kind of think of the flip side, right, of exclusionary practices where you have a quote unquote regular classroom or general education classroom and because you don't fit into a particular mold or well, they're not learning in this classroom, so they need to go somewhere else to be taught a different way or with different people or different tools. Like that whole idea that you can, you can, um, serve a wide variety of learners. Um, it seems like an anti ableist structure. Am I, Amanda Morin: yeah. Picking up Tim Villegas: on that, Amanda Morin: I think yes. I think, I think inherently what we're trying to do in neurodiversity affirming environments is to. Normalize all the things, right? We, we wanna talk about them the way they are. We wanna make sure that we're not making anything less. It's different. It's not less, right? We wanna make sure we're not using those isms right, as a way to other, or compare are those kinds of things. And if you think about it from a perspective of are we educating. All kinds of minds in the classrooms. It also gives us the opportunity to say, there are all sorts of reasons we would move kids into different spaces to teach them. And it's not just because they're disabled or they're neurodivergent, sometimes it's because they need acceleration. Right? And, and that also means we may need to move somebody into a different space because that's where that class is being taught. And I think to some degree, when we're talking about really putting everybody in the same space and providing them with what they need to learn because of the mind that they have or the way that their mind interacts with information or the things that they need. If we're bringing all of those. Teachers and related service providers together in one space to do that. That sort of creates an anti ableist environment by realizing everybody needs something different to learn. And the reason that we pull students into different spaces doesn't have to be because they're below grade level. It doesn't have to be, you know, it could be because they missed school last week because they had the flu and they need to catch up on some of the work they missed while they were out there. Right? We don't think about that necessarily as Uhoh. We're pulling a kid outta a class. We're just saying like this, this kid needs to catch up because they weren't there. So I think to some degree, what it does is it really equalizes that component of things and says, you know, everybody has reasons that they need different ways of learning. And if we build those into the spaces in which they're learning, we are not only. Combating the idea that there are certain kids who need different things, but we're also combating the idea that there are certain reasons that people need those things. Tim Villegas: That's, that's an excellent, that's an excellent point. And I love the way that you explained that because, uh, I think there is a misconception when we're talking about inclusion and, and language and, um, I was just writing something about this, about how, when I say inclusion or inclusive practices, um, each of you probably has an idea of what that means, right? Uh, and it may not be exactly what I think it is. Um, and a lot of times we're talking over each other because we're saying, well, that's not inclusion, or that's not inclusion, or whatever. Um, but I think there's a misconception about what I mean when I'm talking about inclusive practices as it doesn't mean everyone's in the same room all day, every day, no matter what. Like the, the setting and the school is flexible. And that is why I really love your book, y'all, because that is such an important part of, of what you are, are trying to bring to the forefront of what it actually means to be neurodiversity affirming. It's like, you know, how many times have you heard, well, inclusion is one, one size fits all. Like, no, absolutely not. Like it's actually the complete opposite. Right? Right. You know, we can be flexible, we can move around as long as we're talking about all kids. And what you said, Amanda, was, it's not about. Um, only these certain kids have access to the, these certain spaces, right. Or have to be in these certain spaces. It's all spaces can be different, but they, it it's accessible to all kids. Yeah. Am I, am I picking up what you're putting down? Amanda Morin: You are picking up what I am putting down. All right. Emily, what do you, what do you have to add to that? I wanna make sure I'm, I'm not for you. No, I thought was a Emily Kircher-Morris: good explanation of everything. Yeah. I, I think that that's, I, I think part of it, um, just to touch on the ableism piece, I mean, this is not so much with the inclusion part of it, but just recognizing that, um, we really have to start questioning some of our, um, expectations and biases for what we expect from students as far as what they should quote unquote be doing or, or how they should be acting. Um, because that really is, um, a big part of what makes schools. Not a safe space for neurodivergent learners because, um, you know, they do, they do approach the world differently. Tim Villegas: Let's talk about behavior. Um, one of the things, I mean, your book is great. Everyone should get it. Um, I was really interested in that your, your chapter about behavior and about reframing and, um, gosh, who was I talking to? Oh, it was, um, it was a, a, a guest and he actually said he doesn't like using challenging behavior or problem behavior. He likes using, um, stress behavior, which I thought was really interesting. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, Hmm. So tell me. I like that. Amanda Morin: I do too, right? Tim Villegas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Especially with, uh, I mean, uh, I've been on a journey about, with behavior. I felt like I. When I was in the class, I was supporting, you know, students' behavior in a certain way. And then when I moved into a different role, I was learning even more. And now that I'm out of the classroom, I, it's just my conception about how to support kids. Uh, it's just, it's just different. It's very different. So. Mm-hmm. How is your understanding of behavior changed? And either one can, either one of you can go first. Amanda Morin: Yeah, so I mean, mine has definitely changed since the beginning of my career, right at the beginning of my career as a teacher. Behavior was always a negative thing right in, in my beginning of my career because it challenged me and, and I, I'm gonna be really honest in saying that the behavior that I didn't know how to support, that I didn't understand what was going on. It was a challenge to me. And so I probably called it problem behavior because it was a problem for me. Now I realize I, you know, I've come on this journey. Over time there came a point where I realized it was also problematic for the student. Not be, not just because they got into trouble, but because they were having some sort of struggle, right? They were having some sort of struggle that was making it hard for them to meet whatever expectations I had, right? And that's sort of that interaction there of the expectation versus how a student is meeting that expectation or trying to meet that expectation has really changed my perspective on behavior. I often now look at behavior as the reaction. To whatever is going on around. And that my reaction and action in response to a student's reaction is going to change that dynamic as well. And I, and I think for me, that's been an enlightening journey, right? It's been a, it's a journey. Journey to be able to realize, like behavior. We hear the word behavior and we think uhoh, right? There's something, there's something going on here. Behavior is really a reaction to something. How we interpret that behavior depends on sort of where we are, what we understand about the child in front of us, and what our expectations in the moment are, right? And that has been a huge change and shift in my mindset over time. You know, I think what we don't understand is that we don't, I think what we don't always understand is that student behavior isn't directed at us, right? It's happening. Sometimes it may be directed at us, but there may be a reason. Right. And we need to look for those reasons that I would say that there's Emily Kircher-Morris: always a reason. Yes. Amanda Morin: Thank you. Yes, that's true. There is always a reason. There's always a reason. Um, and, and I think that one of the things that is most challenging to me as an educator is to take myself out of the equation and realize this isn't about me. Like this is not about me unless it's about me. Because I'm not actually helping that child to meet the need that they're not able to meet, or the skill that they don't have to express themselves in a different way. Um, Emily talks about sort of the phrase that we use and, and Emily, I'd love for you to talk about your perspective on the phrase around behaviorist communication. 'cause I think there's something really interesting there. Mm-hmm. Emily Kircher-Morris: Um, so well let, let me just also start and kind of. Talk about just what that overall trajectory has been. Just from a personal experience, only because, um, so I was diagnosed as a DHD when I was a kid, when I was in fifth grade, which is, um, at the time was really rare for, for girls and, and, you know, for women my age. Um, and while I had the diagnosis, which was something that a lot of people didn't have, um, that didn't mean that there were any supports. Everything that was, you know, it, it was still basically considered like, the way you handle this is through discipline and so, you know, consequences, losing recess, notes, home, you know, um, I, I mean all, you know, all sorts of different things. Part of the reason I went into education was because I was like, this should not feel this horrible to be a student because it was, it was just really hard. And so, um, but when I got into the classroom. I didn't, I, I started using some of those same behavioral techniques to manage student behavior because I didn't know what else to do. Mm-hmm. Emily Kircher-Morris: And, um, but I, but I still knew that it didn't feel good. It didn't feel good to me, but I, I just didn't have any other options. And I remember it was, it was a while. I mean, it was until I was, I knew I adapted things in my classroom. I moved away from those sorts of sorts of tools. Um, but I couldn't really ever, I couldn't really ever articulate why I was doing that. And we had a school psychologist who was working with our school, this is when I was a school counselor specifically, and this is someone who's collaborated quite a bit with Ross Green. Um, and, and he, um, his name is Dr. Jerry Cox. And, and so, um, but he worked with our school district and I remember sitting in a meeting with him, with the other couple of school counselors that were there at the time and, and going through the, um, the allsup, the, the, um. I'm not gonna remember what it stands for, but it's Ross Green's tool about the lagging skills. Um, and we, he, he, Dr. Cox said, you know, you can have a classroom without a behavior management plan. You can, you don't have to have that. And I was like, my mind was blown. And as silly as that is, it's like I knew that, I knew that in my heart. I knew that I hadn't really been implementing them. But to have him say that out loud and to recognize like you, and, and it, that was really a shifting point for me actually, because what I then realized, especially as I got into my mental health practices, was working more one-on-one with kids who were, who were struggling more significantly was like the behavior plans, the things that we put in place to manage this quote unquote behavior again, which always has a negative connotation. Um, these systems that we put in place, they work for the kids who don't need them. Meaning the kids who are part of that neuron normative population, they don't need a behavior, you know, system in place to, to tell them what to do. If they're a little off track, you go and you say, Hey, let's, you know, adapt this, whatever, and then you move on. For the kids who quote unquote need it, who are the kids who are neurodivergent who or who are struggling, they don't work. So it really doesn't make any sense with, with how we do that. Um, and so I know, you know, we have that phrase, you know, behaviors, communication, which I think many of us have heard. Um, and, and I think, um, when we, when we take an opportunity to assess what is that communication, what is the context, we move away from a compliance based interpretation of behavior to a contextualized an interpretation of that behavior. Recognizing like there's always something underneath. A behavior that seems defiant, a behavior that seems, um, you know, disengaged, whatever it is, like there's something else that's going on. Doesn't mean that there's a quick fix necessarily for it. Mm-hmm. But it does help us then at least focus on solving the problem as opposed to just disciplining the problem. And, and the only other thing I'll mention about that too is you may use like some of these behavioral techniques in a classroom and you will probably get some short-term compliance. However, you have not solved the problem. You have not built the emotional regulation skills, you have not built the self reg self-regulation skills. You have not built the executive functioning skills. Like you haven't actually solved any problem by doing that other than the kids like, I can't do that thing, whatever that might be. Amanda Morin: I, I would add to that as well, that one of the things, if you're gonna become more neurodiversity affirming right in, in your practices, in your classrooms, in your schools, I think it would really. I wanted to use the word behoove, but I don't think I've ever used the word behoove before. Right? Tim Villegas: I love the word behoove. It would behoove go right ahead. Amanda Morin: It would behoove us as a system to really think about how are we teaching and supporting educators and understanding their own regulation strategies, right? Because if you have a dysregulated teacher, they're not going to be able to help students regulate their own behavior. And as much as I'd like to say, I always go into every interaction with every student I have as a regulated human, that is just not true, right? There are things that happen in my life that are outside stressors that come into classrooms with me, and I need to consciously, consciously figure out ways to deescalate my own or regulate my own nervous system so I can have an interaction with a student that helps them regulate their nervous systems, right? Or their emotions or whatever they're having trouble with. So I. I am gonna use behoove. It would behoove us to really help teachers understand what they can do to regulate and understand what's behind their own reactions to things so they can work with the students to support them in their classrooms too. Tim Villegas: Yeah. I love, I love everything about this conversation around behavior. Um, we probably could spend a whole episode just on behavior. Mm. Um, but, uh, I just, I wanna reiterate something that you said, Amanda, about teachers being regulated and it kind of goes along with what you're talking about with, uh, with self-regulation, Emily, and what, again, the journey that I've been on in understanding this idea of co-regulation, right? Mm-hmm. So if you have a teacher that is dysregulated. And now is trying to quote unquote manage behavior. Like, how do you think that's gonna work out? Emily Kircher-Morris: I'll tell you how it's gonna work out 'cause I've got children. Right, right. And they unfortunately get the worst of, uh, of my reactions with things. And I mean, that's, but, but I think it's also, I think it's really important to just normalize that like, that that is a reality and that's okay. And, and whether it happens in the classroom, whether it happens with your own children, whatever it is, we often have those knee jerk reactions, sometimes their responses to our own past experiences. Like, there's so many things that go into that. The only thing we can do is take a moment to reflect on it, try to be more intentional, and then, you know, if we need to repair a relationship with a, with a student or whatever, or try to find a different plan going forward, then we, then we do that. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Amanda Morin: And I hope, I hope what we're you're hearing in this is that, that, that, Emily and I know that we, we don't do this perfectly all the time either, right? So it's really easy to talk from having written a book, but the book goes through a whole process before it gets to the, to the shelves, right? Mm-hmm. And so just know that we're, we're still learning, we're still still adjusting, we're still learning as well. Tim Villegas: Well, I, I've told you, um, two parts of the book that were really, uh, impactful for me. So, you know, language and behavior, um, you know, anti ableist spaces. Is there, is there a part of the book that you are really excited about, that you love talking about? Is there something on top of mind for you? Amanda Morin: I love. I mean, honestly, I, I love where we're talking about reframing strengths based and deficit based language. I really do. I mean, and maybe that's a place to nerd out. Right. But I think it's important, especially when we're talking about individualized learning plans, whatever kinds of learning plans they may be, is. I love the idea of how do we look not only at where students are lagging, where they have deficits, but also what are the strengths that they bring with that as well, right? I talk often about like, um, the Winnie the Pooh characters, right? And those are, those are the ways I sort of, I use that example, right? So if you look at ticker, you could say ticker is like all over the place, jumping all around, like really, you know, distracted all those things. But Tigger's also super eager to learn, right? Tigger is friendly, makes friends easily, he's communicative. Like all of these kinds of things. They're sort of these flip sides of things that I wanna make sure that we are talking about. Because when we look at students simply from this deficit based, we're not actually getting the whole perspective of a student. And to me, like that's an exciting part of the book is where we talk about how do you reframe some of those traits and look at the positives. As well as the things that need work. And I noticed you don't, you don't hear me saying, and the negatives, right, because they're not, they're not necessarily the negatives, they're the skills that still need work. And so to me, that's a part of the book that's Emily Kircher-Morris: really exciting. I think one of the pieces that stands out to me there, there are two, one of them is the section where we talk about camouflaging and masking behaviors and, and what that might look like in the classroom and how to interpret that and how it might impact students. Um, because a lot of neurodivergent students have been taught that they need to look. A certain way or act a certain way. And it actually is more detrimental to them than, than we probably realize. And the other piece that actually goes along with this, um, throughout the book, we have these segments that are about the double empathy problem, which is all about perspective taking and recognizing, um, how we can understand, um, what's happening in a situation from the perspectives of the neurodivergent student, from the teacher, from the other students in the classroom. Because so often we approach situations from this place where we're expecting people to comply with whatever, whatever you know, is, is, is kind of been accepted as the, the normative way of doing those things, um, without really taking into consideration. What the experience of that neurodivergent student is, and that's what the double empathy problem really looks at. And so I like those because I think they're great conversation starters for educators to have to think about, um, you know, how to look at those things from different angles. Tim Villegas: Speaking of educators, we have a lot of educators that listen, so teachers, um, principals, school administrators. Is there one thing, uh, that you want them to take away from, uh, take away with from this conversation? I don't think I said that right, but that's okay. Amanda Morin: I want educators to know this is not an all or nothing proposition, right? We're not saying take a book on neurodiversity affirming practices and do all of them at the same time and change everything you're doing. I want educators to take away the idea that small changes. Can bring big rewards, right? So you don't have to change everything at once. Tackle one thing that you feel is manageable for you and see what the change is in your classroom, in your school. So for me, that's the most important thing is to say like, we're not expecting everything to change at once, but if you try something different, you might be surprised at what happens in your classroom. Emily Kircher-Morris: And I think the thing that I would want people to take away is just about how much it can change the experience of a student when we de-stigmatize the parts of them that make them who they are. We can recognize that sometimes those things are hard. Um, and, and they may need support in those areas, but it doesn't mean that they are broken. It doesn't mean that they need to be fixed. And that message is really powerful for young people to hear as they grow into adults, become independent, are a, you know, able to self-advocate more. Um, you know, that's just, I think, such a powerful thing for our students and for our society. Tim Villegas: Where can people find your, your book, um, your, your own work and you all have a, a podcast, is that correct? We can talk about that too. Emily Kircher-Morris: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so, so we have, we were, we are releasing a limited series podcast, um, called Creating Neurodiversity Affirming Schools. Um, it's great as a standalone or you can use it as a supplement to the book because we kind of align each episode with. Kind of the theme of each book, but they're different conversations. You, of course have been a, a guest Tim, on one of the episodes. I think it's episode four. Episode four. Um, yeah. And so, um, yeah, people can check that out, um, wherever they listen to podcasts or, um, they can go to neurodiversity affirming schools.com. And then of course, I'm the host of the Neurodiversity podcast, which is same. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. Amanda Morin: And I would say also on that, that website, neurodiversity affirming schools.com, you can find more about me and Emily, you can find more about the, the work that we do to, um, work with educators, work with school districts, you know, the training and experiences that we do. Um, you know, you can also find us like on LinkedIn and Threads and, and Blue Sky and sort of all of those, those typical places that people are showing up now. Um. But I think that that website is a great place to start. Um, the book Neurodiversity Affirming Schools Transforming Practices so all students can feel accepted and supported. You can find it at pretty much all major booksellers. So, um, I'm always going to say I would order from your local bookstore because I'm a big supporter of independent bookstores, but you can find Emily Kircher-Morris: it pretty much wherever you find books and that, that the pull of that prime when it's gonna be here tomorrow between four and 8:00 AM I know you live in Maine, Amanda, so you don't get that privilege. But we have an Amazon warehouse very close to our house and we can get stuff really quick and man, awesome. Yes, yes, Tim Villegas: yes. Fair, fair. But you know what, uh, I do have a Barnes and Noble that is, that is like. I don't know, like a quarter mile away from my house. Yeah. It is not like we can walk to it. I do too. Amanda Morin: Emily thinks I live in the boonies, but I do have a Barnes and Noble nearby. Well, it's, Tim Villegas: you live in Maine. It's practically Canada. Emily Kircher-Morris: No, it's, it's not. It's fine. It's just the Northeast Northeast. Well, that's a separate conversation. We'll, we'll, we'll take that off tape. Tim Villegas: Okay. All right. Note for the audio. We're gonna cut that. Alright. Alright. Um, it's, uh, it's mystery question time. Emily Kircher-Morris: Okay. I know I was very, I was very intrigued by this when you sent us a little bit some notes about the outline. I'm like, Ooh. Tim Villegas: It's just so, um, I used to have a really large stack of prompt cards, Emily Kircher-Morris: Uhhuh, Tim Villegas: they're, they're, they're called from pod decks. Ooh. And they're just little questions. And I started asking my guests at the end of every episode a mystery question, and I'm almost done with them. And I told my 12-year-old that as soon as I'm done with them, she's gotta write, start writing my questions for me. So love that. Tim Villegas: Yeah. And she is a, she's an avid listener. She's probably the only one of my family members that listens, so I don't know if you can relate to that. But yeah, to be fair, Emily Kircher-Morris: I don't always listen to all of my own episodes. I sat through 'em once already. Tim Villegas: Okay, here we go. What is one thing you'd wished, one thing you wish you'd spend more time doing when you were younger? Let's put it right on the camera. What is one thing you wish you'd spent, uh, more time doing when you were younger? So we all answer it. I don't know if anyone has a one off the top of my head. Ooh. Oh man, I'm, I'm deciding which way to go with this, because I'm Amanda Morin: wondering. Yeah, yeah. Tim Villegas: Um, because I, in my younger, younger years, um, was I, I ran a lot. I, I, I still liked to run, but, um, when I was, when I was a teenager and in my twenties, um, I didn't run, I'd never ran cross country. I played basketball, but I would run around my neighborhood. I. And there is no trackers. You know, like I didn't know how long. Yeah, yeah. Tim Villegas: Like, like now you're like, I, I ran 5.27, three miles or whatever. Amanda Morin: You're like, I ran past Johnny's house four times. Tim Villegas: Right, right. So I would just go out and run and like, I didn't have like special running shoes. I just, you know, I just enjoyed running and, um, I used to do a lot of it. And then when, when I got married and had started having kids, I kind of got back into it and stuff. But now, you know, your body starts falling apart and it's like not something and like regularly do, and I'm actually really upset about it. So I, I feel like I did not take a advantage of it enough. Mm-hmm. I would've liked to do more. I. You know, anyways, Amanda Morin: so that's interesting because mine is maybe similar. I was a competitive swimmer from the time I was like seven until the time I was 16. One of the things Amanda and I have in common Yes. Have in common. Interesting. Which we did not know. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was a competitive swimmer. I was actually like top in the state top in New England for many, many years, which meant I did practices in the morning and I did practices in the evening. And so I spent a lot of time in a pool, right? But I didn't spend a lot of time just swimming for enjoyment. And when I think about that, I don't swim that much anymore. I think because I spent so many years doing it competitively when I was younger and I, I wish I had spent more time just enjoying the opportunity to just, you know, I think better in water. I do like, I think, better in water. I have my best ideas in the shower. I do well when I'm swimming. Um, but I don't think I had a chance, which is very strange. I have, I have like, um, there's, there's something called aqua notes. You can put them in your shower so you can write down ideas that you have in your shower. I didn't notice it out. Wow. So this just went in a whole weird direction there. But like, just know that that exists. But I wish I had spent more time just like enjoying it instead of the competitiveness of it. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Emily Kircher-Morris: Can I be, thanks for sharing. Can mine be something that I, that I wish maybe I didn't do as much? Tim Villegas: I don't, absolutely. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Was it just different? Whatever you want. Emily Kircher-Morris: I, I wish that I had not tried so hard for people's approval. I feel like. I feel like as an ADHDer I, we recently did an episode on, on our podcast, um, with Dr. Bill Dodson about rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which I never really thought resonated with like that. I resonated with that quite as much. Um, and after talking to him for an hour, I realized, like, I think that actually probably impacted me as a child, especially more than I even realized. And so I spent a lot of energy trying to be what I thought people wanted me to be, trying to protect myself from any sort of negative feedback, which I think has probably filtered even through, through adulthood. Um, and on the one hand, while I always feel like I was never afraid to be who I was, but also, but always like just holding back just a, you know, like, like being worried about like what they were thinking or, or trying to figure out how to. How to show up in a way that would get their approval. Um, I think ultimately it got me into some toxic relationships, friendships, romantic relationships. Like, I mean, that it's, I don't know, I guess that that would be the thing that I can think of that I would do differently, to be clear. Not her current. No. To be, no. To be clear. No, Tim Villegas: no. To be clear. To be clear. To be clear, Emily Kircher-Morris: yeah. Tim Villegas: I like, I like how you took that. I like the way that you, you, you ran with that. And, um, we have a little bit of time, so I'm wondering if there is something in your life that is going well that you'd wish, that you wanna make sure you, you do more of. And I will go first because this popped into my head when Emily was talking about it. So, um, um, I have been focusing on my mental health, um, lately. It's always been a priority, but I've really put in some practices and one of the practices that I'm learning more about is meditation. And I, I wish that I knew about it sooner. Like it is, it is, it really has been like life changing. So, um, yeah, it's, it's like I, Amanda Morin: that's awesome. Tim Villegas: It's weird for me to, to, it's not, it's not weird. It's, it's more like, um, like I'm just more comfortable talking about it. Mm-hmm. And so, um, I'd like to mention it here, you know, for the world to know. But, um, yeah, that's something that I'm really getting into and I'm getting a lot of benefit from it, so I, I want to keep doing that. Amanda Morin: That's awesome. I have gotten to a point in the past year or so where I've done a lot of thinking about like work-life balance. And I am feeling better about that. I think a lot, I've spent a lot of time trying to work and be everything and everything and everybody at work, and I've, I'm really learning how to choose what I do carefully and saying, no, not just because my calendar is full, but because I deserve some time to myself sometimes. Um, it's hard, but it's been actually something I'm very proud of. I'm very proud of getting to a point in my life where I'm actually being thoughtful about what I choose to do and when I choose to do it, because of how it affects, like, I think to some degree my mental health as well, right? It affects my mental health, it affects my relationships. Um, and it's hard to do, but I'm kind of really enjoying being able to say like, I matter too, and I don't know. That's so I'm proud of that. Yeah. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Emily Kircher-Morris: Mine is somewhat related, I think, to Amanda's in some ways, but it kind of also has to do with the whole kind of being stretched really thin with a lot of things. But something that I've really been struggling with that I want to improve, I, I need to seek some resolution, probably some therapy, but I, I'm having a hard time recently with the letting go of things, like the things that I've started, the things. So, like for example, I started a local nonprofit here in the St. Louis area and I was the founder of it, and I was the president of it for almost a decade. And it just got to be too much and I had to hand it off. And I feel like now, like there are just some growing pains there and seeing that and, but like I feel a mixture of guilt. Responsibility and also just sadness that like, I didn't build something that was more sustainable in some ways. And, um, the same goes with, with my counseling practice actually. So I'm still counseling. However, um, because of all the things that we're doing with the podcast and the speaking and all of this, um, we actually sold the practice. So it's, so we don't, I I don't own it anymore. And that's a very weird feeling, like, um, I mean, I'm still working there. It, I'm still seeing clients there, but I am not in charge of all the things. Um, and it's just been an odd adjustment, but I've been having a lot of really, I don't know, I'm trying to reconcile all of that and, and put it into perspective, but reminding myself I can't keep doing all of the things I, I, yeah, I just can't. I mean, literally there's no time. And, um, I don't know. I, I don't really know where I'm going with that necessarily, but I guess that's it. I mean, you know, I Tim Villegas: guess just, you know, keep, you know, keep, uh, letting go. Keep Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah. Tim Villegas: You know, being okay with Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah. You Tim Villegas: know, things like that, I guess. Yeah, I guess Emily Kircher-Morris: maybe I'm just like trying to, I, I guess maybe what I wasn't expecting with some of these things is the feelings of like, disappointment and sadness that I'm now experiencing kind of like later. It's almost like a little bit of a rebound. Like it's not immediate. And then, and that's just kind of a, I, I don't know. I, I, I wasn't expecting that, that to kind of really come to the surface as much as it has. Look at all Amanda Morin: of us trying to be self-actualized humans in big ways. I mean that sincerely, like, congrats to all of us for trying to sort that out. Like really? Tim Villegas: Yes. Yes. Um, yeah, it's hard work being a human and an adult, Emily Kircher-Morris: isn't it? Isn't it? And a parent. And a parent. And a parent. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the hardest. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Uh, wow. I really appreciate that. Because, and, and I'm gonna keep all of that because I guarantee you someone is gonna need to hear that conversation play out. Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah. Yeah. Tim Villegas: And so thank you. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Emily Kircher Morris and Amanda Morin. Thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast. Uh, this was so much fun. Emily Kircher-Morris: Thank you for having us. Yeah, thanks. It was great. Tim Villegas: Welcome back. That's the final chapter of this episode of Think Inclusive. Now let's turn the page to the credits. Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I handle the writing, editing, designing, mixing, and mastering. This podcast is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Original Music by Miles Kredich additional music by Melod.ie. A big shout out to our sponsor, IXL. Check them out at ixl.com/inclusive. We truly appreciate each and every one of you who tunes in, uh, week after week. We love to hear how you're using these episodes. Are they part of your teaching toolkit? Are you sharing them with school administrators? Are you sharing them with friends or family? Do you have a favorite episode? Drop me a line at tvillegas@mcie.org and let me know. And hey, if you're still with us this far into the episode, it probably means that you love, think Inclusive and the work that MCIE is doing. So can I ask you a small favor? Help us keep the momentum going by donating at our website mcie.org. Just click the button at the top of the site and chip in $5, $10, $20. It would mean the world to us and the children, in the schools and districts we partner with. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works from MCIE.