Rebuilding Education: Navigating Policy Changes and Their Impact on Schools
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Tim Villegas: Alright, we're gonna get started. I think that's long enough. Hey everyone. Uh, my name is Tim Villegas with the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, and I'm here with some of my closest podcasting pals.

Um, we, uh, uh, a few weeks ago we were talking about how we could support, um, the broader community of, of, um, of the broader educational community. And we have a little group called the Inclusive Pod Network. It's, it's pretty informal. Anyone can join. Uh, and we've been meeting, uh, what, for over a year now, right, Diana?

Yes. Over a year. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and it just started off, um, us trying to find other podcasters to support in the space of, uh, inclusive education. And so we got together and say, Hey, what do, what do you think about doing a live stream with everyone and. We're like, this is an awesome idea, and we've never done a live stream with this many people before.

So here we are. Uh, we're, we're hope that you're watching. If you're watching live, great. We want to know that you're watching. Uh, give us a like, uh, uh, send in a comment. Uh, let us know. And then if you're not watching live, um, just watch the, uh, the recording and let us know what you think of what's going on.

So here is our agenda. Uh, we have a number of podcasters, and I'm going to list them off, uh, and, and name the podcasting, uh, podcast or the organization that they're affiliated with. And each of us has a topic, um, that is near and dear to our heart that we're going to be talking about related to supporting the educational community and, um, students with disabilities.

And then, uh, so everyone's gonna have a chance to talk. If you have a question for one of the podcasters, one of us, please feel free to, um, send us, uh, a question in the comments. Um, and, and we will try to answer it. But there will be time at the end of our live stream, uh, to answer, uh, all of our questions.

All of your questions. So let me get my list here. Uh, we're gonna start off with, uh, Ashley Barlow and Ashley Barlow. You, uh. Not only have a, you know, consulting, um, uh, company, but you also have the collaborative IEP podcast, is that correct? Yes, I got that right. Yes, that is correct. 

Ashley Barlow: I'm a special education attorney and advocate, and then I have the collaborative IEP with a podcast as well.

Tim Villegas: Great. So Ash is gonna start us off, and then we have, uh, Janet Roche. I'm hoping I said that, saying that, right? Am I saying that right? Right, Janet? 

Janet Roche: Yes. I perf Well, I, the short answer is yes. It's always sounds like you know, the bug. So, you know, growing up it's a little sensitive. Right. Um, but out outside of that though, yes, I'm very, yes, you pronounced.

It's absolutely perfect. 

Tim Villegas: Okay, good. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, and uh, Janet, you have the Inclusive Designers Podcast, is that correct? 

Janet Roche: That is correct. Um, both myself and, and Carolyn Robbins, uh, co-produced, uh, the Inclusive Designers, uh, podcast. Uh, we also, um, um, I'm the host and she does some editing and, and, uh, we both try to do some writing, although she's clearly the better writer than I am, so I am very lucky to, um, have her on, uh, our, well, we're both a team, uh, but so we're just basically about, um, uh.

We wanna make sure everybody is inclusive. And so we actually got involved with you because of Judy Mann and Judy Mann's group. Right, right. Had suggested we, we pop onto you guys, so yeah. 

Tim Villegas: Awesome. Awesome. Great, great. And the next we're gonna have Sam Drazin. Sam is the CEO of Changing Perspectives. Uh, he's also a, a, you know, you are a podcaster 'cause you have uh, uh, sip and Sam podcast.

Right. So that counts. 

Janet Roche: He's 

Tim Villegas: You're on mute. You're on mute, Sam. 

Sam Drazin: Oh, thanks. I always do that. Um, thanks Tim. Happy to be here. Um, yeah. I'm the executive director and founder of a educational nonprofit that supports inclusive education in schools called Changing Perspectives. Um, and I've also collaborated with the Supporting Inclusive Practices Project out of California.

Um, with our, it it's still, we're still building momentum with our podcast. We only have a few episodes, but it is out there. Uh, sip and Sam Inclusion Coffee Talk. There you go. Great. 

Tim Villegas: And then, um, uh, Savitha Sundar is, uh, we'll be, uh, presenting as part of this live stream. Um, and she is working out some technical issues, but she has the Inclusive Occupations Podcast, which is fantastic.

We featured, uh, her podcast in our, uh, as a, as a feed drop, uh, in the Think Inclusive Feed. So fantastic. A resource there. And then, uh, Lori Bowl of Senia, uh, you have the Senia podcast. 

Lori Boll: Yeah. SENIA happy hour podcast. 

Tim Villegas: So, oh, that's why I forgot. It was happy hour. Yeah. 

Lori Boll: Very important. 

Tim Villegas: Yes. Uh, I'm only drinking coffee this evening.

Yeah. And then, um, and then Diana Pastora Carson, uh, of the Disability Awareness Podcast 

Diana Pastora Carson: Beyond Awareness, disability Awareness That Matters Podcast Beyond 

Tim Villegas: Awareness. Thank you. Thank you. Alright, um, glad you're here. And then, uh, and then there's me, uh, the post of Think Inclusive and I'm the director of Communications for the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education.

Alright, um, so let's get started. Uh, I think somebody, I, I can't tell if anyone's put any comments, uh, in the live stream, but please. Let us know you're watching, uh, give us a, like, uh, give us, uh, a thumbs up, an emoji in the comment, just comments, just so that we know that, that you're watching and that you are supporting, um, the work, uh, as we support students with disabilities.

So, um, Ashley, um, wanna get us started here? Let's, um, what, um, what are the latest updates from your world of educational advocacy that we should know about? 

Ashley Barlow: Sure. Absolutely. I'm, I'm happy to do it and I'm going to try to get through, um, a fairly large update in, um, a short amount of time. So I think we have this slated for 15 to 20 minutes.

Um, and I'm gonna try to cover a lot of these policy changes or, um, you know, anticipated policy changes, um, in a short amount of time. So, a little more about my history. I'm a special education attorney. I'm licensed in, um, Kentucky. I only represent families. Um, so I work on the family side and then I work as a special education advocate in almost all 49 other states.

Um. And I have this business with the podcast called the collaborative IEP, where I provide additional resources for IEP team members on, um, collaborative advocacy at the IEP table and beyond. Um, in addition to that, I'm a parent of a child that has Down Syndrome. And so that's kind of like where my stake is, right?

Um, and that's why I care about this so much. So, um, you know what we're gonna do is we're gonna talk about these policy changes and anticipated policy changes, and I wanna spend more time on potential impact because I think that's where we lie. Um, and then if we have time, we can talk about things that, um, parents and people can do.

Um, and if not, then we can do that in the q and a, um, to the extent that people want us to. So, um, the first big threat, I think, or the first big, um, anticipated policy change is this idea that the Department of Education is going to go away. Um, there are two different ways that that could be anticipated, so we'll take 'em in order.

The first is HR 8 99, which is a bill that was filed actually by my representative, um, representative Thomas Mass of Kentucky. He introduced this bill and Trump, and President Trump's first administration did not get very much traction. The bill is literally one sentence long. Um, and what it would anticipate doing is what it says is to, to abolish the Department of Education, um, by December 26th, 2026.

So, you know, about 18 to 20 months from now. Um. So, um, can this happen? That's the first question. And the answer to that is no, because, uh, well, it can, but is is it likely? The answer is probably not. Um, when he introduced this bill, um, the first time, it did not seem to gain much traction. It does seem like there is a little bit more interest in it now, um, but it doesn't seem like he would get the 60 votes that it needs to pass the Senate.

So in order to pass, um, this bill would, in order to abolish the Department of Education, let's be very clear. Um, there must be an executive order to, uh, pardon me, there must be an act of Congress to do so. Um, and in fact, it would need that super majority of 60 votes in, um, in the Senate. So he did not get that traction the first time.

Um, there was a similar bill that made it through the house, um, in this last administration, and it was voted against by every Democrat in the house as well as by, um, several members of the, of the Republican party. I think 60 members of the Republican Party. So, um, that does not seem likely. Um, we'll go ahead and talk a little bit about potential impact of, um, eliminating the Department of Education and right now, and then we'll talk about the potential of an executive order with the same goal.

Um. So, you know, I think it's important to understand what the Department of Ed does, and we're talking about the federal, the United States Department of Education. Um, generally they administer funding, um, including grants and loans. So like Title One funding would come by way of, you know, grants and loans they enforce, um, and oversee the, um, implementation of federal laws.

So they enforce federal education laws and civil rights protections. Um, the Department of Education, for example, has the Office of Civil Rights, which, um, is supposed to protect students from things like bullying and discrimination on the basis of disability. Um, and the definition of disability is, um, is fairly broad and something that's also subject to litigation.

Um, at the federal level right now, um, the Department of Ed conducts research and collects a lot of data. This data is all, um, you know, kind of required by law, and so it's really important that it happens and they use that data to both drive outcomes as well as to develop and to revise laws. Um, and then they support states and local school, school districts to implement effective educational programs.

So, if we think about just those four functions, we think that all of those things, if the Department of Education is moved or eliminated or reduced in size and impact, um, all of those things could be threatened. Right. Um. So as it applies to the disability community specifically, um, you know, I think we would have those things at risk.

But in addition to that, the Department of Education offers additional supports to students with disabilities. So obviously they administer special education laws like IDEA, individuals with Disabilities Education Act, um, as well as section 5 0 4 of the Rehabilitation Act, um, the A DA Oars guidance, um, and stuff like that.

Um, the Department of Ed also houses oars, which has different subdivisions like oep, um, the Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services, and the Office of Special Education Programs. These two things become really important when we talk about the next threat to, um, the reduction in size to the Department of Ed.

Because what these are, these are two offices underneath the Department of Education that, um, do a lot of things relative to the implementation of special education laws. Um, and they are, they have a lot of control over the administrative regulations. So the administrative regulations can significantly change with the policy of every administration.

And we, I mean that, that's true in America and every agency. Um, but it seems as though the threat to change right now is, um, is fairly significant and overarching. You know, unprecedented is a word that has been used quite a bit. Um, we get funding for special education through the Department of Education, through, you know, grants and, and even straight to school districts, um, providing technical assistance, uh, training for parents, training for teachers, that sort of thing, as well as monitoring and enforcement of laws.

And that monitoring is, um, directly in idea, like for example, part B, section 1412, um, and 1413 have a lot relative to that monitoring. So that's what the Department of Education does and those are the things, some of the things, um, that would be impacted if the Department of Education was reduced in size, moved someplace else, et cetera.

Um, so the next threat to the department itself is that President Trump has alluded to the fact that he is preparing an executive order, um, that would eliminate the Department of Education. That cannot happen. Um, the Department of Ed cannot be eliminated by executive orders. So, you know, we've seen all kinds of executive orders come out.

Um, and there cannot be one that's similar that says the Department of Ed's gonna go away on this particular date with these particular rules. Um, but the executive branch, the president's office, can do a lot to impact the Department of Education. And we have seen some of that. We've seen significant changes, um, because of policy changes that he's made within the Department of Education.

So one is controlling funding and staffing, and we saw, um, that last Monday, the Department of Education, you know, what was touted in the news. Um. What President Trump was pretty proud to announce was that he reduced the amount of staff last Monday by 50%. Um, I had an advocate call me yesterday and say that the office is civil rights in Pennsylvania, which I live in the sixth Circuit.

I live in Kentucky, in the greater Cincinnati area, that's our office for civil rights. Um, and she got an email saying that they were closing. I asked her to forward it to me and I haven't seen it yet. But, um, you know, I mean, that's a really significant change. So, um, you know, 50% of the people that were working there are no longer working there.

Um, we also saw a lot of funding, um, changes already. So an example of that is the Office of Civ, uh, pardon me, um, not the Office of Civil Rights. There's this, um. Research branch of the Department of Education and there's like overarching research branch. And then there's all these little agencies that get very nuanced in the research that they do.

And, um, then the, the, um, practices that we take as a result of the research. And we have seen very many grants and contracts being withheld and withdrawn, um, in that research branch. So research particularly on anything that is tied to DEI initiatives has been, um, not research fund, well, the research relative to DEI initiatives has been stopped or significantly halted, um, by the administration from a policy standpoint, no more funding, no more contracts.

Um. And so we're seeing that happens. Obviously these kinds of changes, reduction in staffing, reduction in, um, in funding can involve a loss of data-driven decision making, right? Because if we don't have the data, then we can't make decisions on it, which means that Congress isn't gonna know what their return on investment is.

Congressmans over $2 billion on education, and they are gonna have no idea what, you know, what the return on investment is. Relative to that. Obviously we won't know as much about best practice if we aren't getting the research. Um, reduced early intervention services, decreased accountability and oversight, limited understanding on the return on investment.

Um, we won't know as much about workforce trends that impact students with disabilities that are transition aged, um, and outcomes after transition, we won't know as much about an innovation, right? Which could then impact our ability to compete against other countries like Finland, Singapore, Canada schools with, you know, better outcomes.

Um. And we aren't gonna be able to fill those gaps in research because, you know, we aren't gonna be researching as much. In addition to that, the way that funding works, the, the way the formulas work, states that are traditionally underfunded, or at least are currently underfunded, are, are most likely to get less funding.

So in essence, the poor are going to get poorer. Um, and there are many states that don't get, you know, nearly, um, as, as much as what they need and they rely on this. Um, I'm speaking at a press conference tomorrow with Kentucky's lieutenant governor and, um, you know, part of my notes indicate that some districts rely on up to 30%, up to 50% actually, of federal funds in order to operate, um, their departments of ed.

You know, if that money is significantly reduced, gosh, that's a large chunk of their budget, you know, um, so the, the way that policy can kind of trickle down through the executive branch can have big impacts. Um, just a couple more things, like those are the two, you know, significant, um, threats, but we're also seeing a lot that's happening in the Office of Civil Rights.

So. The Office of Civil Rights used to what it's designed to do, it's within the Department of Education. And what the Office of Civil Rights is supposed to do is to provide protections against students, um, that are subjected to discrimination on the basis of their disability. And, um, you know, this includes bullying and it includes retaliation and, um, a lot of different things.

Right? OCR complaints have been a pretty popular tool that special education attorneys and advocates have used over the years in order to make sure that kids are getting what um, they deserve at school. And since President Trump took office, what we are seeing is that the OCR has done a complete 180 and they are actually working to, um, promote the anti D-I-D-E-I initiatives that are in those executive orders that President Trump, you know, signed early on in his presidency.

And so we're seeing things like opening complaints against state high school athletic associations that allow students to, um, play sports associated with their gender identity as opposed to their, um, gender assigned at birth. Um, we're seeing the OCR open complaints, um, open investigations against schools that have gender neutral bathrooms.

Um, they are firing people at the federal level that attended DEI trainings even when President Trump was in office, um, in the beginning and many more things. I'm, I'm scrolling. I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling. Um, so the last big thing that I'm asked about a lot is, um. You know, what, what's the idea? Like if we don't have a Department of Education, where does it go?

Right. On my podcast, we're currently walking through idea, um, section by section, and I am literally like, I'm reading it as little as I can, but I'm summarizing paragraph by paragraph, what's in idea. Um, and you know, I mean, my gosh, there's so much talking between the states and the federal government and between the local education agencies, the schools and the districts, and their state governments and the federal government.

And so like, how does all of that happen? Um, so the idea of the Trump administration, there's a bill that's pending, but it was pending in the Biden administration doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Um, so we really have to look at Project 2025 to get an idea of what their, um, what their idea is. It's a lot of idea when we're talking about the federal law, that's also called idea.

Um, so what the supposition is, is that the Office of Civil Rights would move to the Department of Justice, the United States Department of Justice, not within, you know, any other agency, but the DOJ, like the one that we're used to thinking about. Um. That could have really detrimental impacts to students with disabilities.

Um, the Department of Justice is tr has traditionally been focused on litigation and the OCR is not focused on litigation. If you file an OCR complaint, they come in, they investigate. If they determine that something needs to be done, they work that plan, they provide oversight. They are in schools day to day.

Um, and you do this with a simple forum that can be filled out online or filled out at home, scanned and sent into them. Um, and so it could, you know, make parents have to file a lawsuit in order to complain, which, you know, is costly and stressful and all of the things that litigation are. Um, undoubtedly we would have fewer school compliance reviews.

Um, and, you know, the reprioritization of disability issues in school would undoubtedly happen because the, the DOJ does a lot more than just disability related issues at schools. Um, we also would probably get more pol, politicization, politicization things would be more politicized. Um, there you go. Less educationally focused, you know, et cetera.

And then finally, um. We, what we're hearing and and what we've read in Project 2025 is, you know, kind of the outline and, and the ideas that are in that other bill. I think the bill, the other bill is called something like, um, sending Education back to the States or something is, um, that O Cs the Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services and its sub offices like oep, the Office of Special Education Programs, would move to HHS, the Health and Human um services.

And of course we know that that's the agency that is currently run by Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, who has said some things that are contrary to what the large body of research indicates about the cause of autism, treatment of autism, um, you know, other things relative to cause and treatment of disabilities, access to medication, et cetera.

So pretty contrary to the large body of, um, research and information about people with disabilities, particularly IDDs. Um, obviously this would also shift the focus of education to more of a medical model, medical services 'cause that's what HHS does. Um, and that's where we see those block grants. This is where we see the privatization.

So also in HH, also in project 2025, um, there's this idea that funding would be shifted to a no strings block grant idea, which basically would mean that, um, I. The government or states wouldn't be required to use federal money for, um, special education, you know, and money could go to private schools, federal money could go to private schools to educate kids.

Obviously, you know, we can't spread money around too much more. Thinly ideas never been fully funded. Um, so we would get a, a much less significant distribution of funds, certainly less funding for special education, weaker enforcement of idea if idea protections even follow students to, um, private schools.

And we would get a reduction in the inclusive. Like the big thing here for this group is if, if students, um, if neurotypical students are taking their federal dollars to privatize schools, what's left in our public schools that are accessible to students on IEPs, or a large majority of students on IEPs, that doesn't mirror real life at all because we've got kids that have gone out to the STEM school and the creative and performing arts school and the, I don't know, whatever other schools there are.

Um, and what's left in our public school doesn't look much like the real world anymore anyway. And, you know, if the purpose of idea is to promote further education, employment, and independent living, um. We've got this really future forward law in an environment that doesn't look anything like what the future community is gonna look like.

Um, so that was a little bit more than 15 minutes, but I really tried to cram it in. I hope that was helpful. 

Tim Villegas: No, we really appreciate you taking the time, Ashley, to summarize that was a lot of information and uh, if anyone has any questions, uh, make sure to put those in the comments, uh, in, on Facebook. Um, or you can wait until the end of our session and we can get back to you maybe asking some more questions.

I know I have some questions, so. Alright. Um, you got it. Our next, uh, our next podcaster is, uh, Janet from the Inclusive Designers Podcast. Um, what is it like in your world, Janet? Um, you, you, I know you, something you talk about is trauma-informed design. I wonder, um, how we can use this knowledge, uh, in this discussion.

Janet Roche: Absolutely. Um, Ashley, I just wanted to let you know, thank you for a very, you know, um, it was very quick, but it was a lot of information in there and I think we should talk at some point because partially I think I'm out of a job. So, um, with, um, because my inclusive, my Inclusive Designers podcast is all great.

It, it's part of a launching part two, Trauma-Informed Design. I'm one of the co-founders for Trauma-Informed Design Society, and, um, I just wanna, um, I had a whole bunch of stuff to say and then when you were talking to me, I was, all of a sudden I'm like, Ugh, it's just a little bit outta whack, so you're gonna have to bear with me.

Um, so, um, we did an episode, so Inclusive Designers podcast, um, is really about DEI, right? At the end of the day. Um, we just did, um, we did one with Judy Mann, what we talked about. We done things on crisis centers, behavioral centers. We're doing ones on, um, on Pottery Barnes having a whole new inclusive, um, sets that they're coming up with bedroom sets and, and, and bathroom sets, right?

We're talking to the CEO of Michael Graves design, who's designing these, um, uh, great, um, you know, just beautiful pieces and, um. And so, but we also did one on, on what we have for the Trauma Informed Design Society. Um, something called the TID eval, K through 12. I'll just go to inclusive designers.com and it's season five, episode one.

We talk about this evaluation tool that we created. It was from a funding from American Society of Interior Designers. Um, we got a, like a startup funding. We did it all through the pandemic, uh, which was really hard to look at schools while they're all closed, right? Uh, but we managed and we ended up actually getting a core award, which is the certification of research excellence from edra, which is the Environmental Research Design Association.

And so it's, I think that you guys would be, you know, you would be really interested in, you know, learning more about that. And the, if you go to TID Society, um, you can find the tool there and, um, and it's all electronic now. Um, and, but there's ways to look at it. And to your point, we're trying to always do more research too.

Like further the cause so that, you know, we can let people know that there's, it's, it's real. And the how is it real? Well, I'll tell you, um, there is 90, 90% of all human beings have had some sort of trauma in their lives. Um, it is, it's very common, especially kids who have had disability issues, right? Like there's a real problem, um, with trauma in that.

So what do we do as trauma-informed, uh, designers? So trauma-informed design is, is about integrating principles of trauma-informed care, um, and as originally established by the substance and mental health, um, services administration, otherwise known as samhsa. Um, and we're continuing evolving. Um, and it's really, it is about design, but it's understanding the, um, the principles of samhsa of what they understand is trauma.

And that's how we come, came about our own piece. I'm just gonna poke my book. I just got my new book out. So it's called Trauma Informed Design. Um, yay. Um, and, um, it's out on Amazon, or you could go to DID um, society.com, uh, to, um, to, to look for the book. I think what we're doing, we're trying to do research, we're trying to understand it a lot better.

It's gonna be evolving, right? Because as we understand the science better, right? As we understand how things work, um, both in within our built environment and also, um, with people's minds and how we interact with the environment really makes a big difference. And if you've been traumatized, you really are going to need something where it's a more calming situation, right?

Like think of a spa, right? But sometimes we also know where things are working and don't work. Like we need not work any further than going into the DMV or something like that to know, like, things are just not working right? So it's really important for us to understand that and do the research and look at this kind of information so that we can come back and come up with informed decisions within the built environment.

So to answer your question, Tim, I mean really what, what both. IDP is about anti id, is about, is really about inclusivity. It's really making sure that we're leveling the playing fields, right? So I'm also an inclusive designer. So what does that mean? I'm looking at things like making sure that the playgrounds are inclusive, making sure that everybody has access to things.

'cause if we don't, we're not going to have the same ability to, like, like you said, people will fall behind with all these new policies. People are going to fall behind. People are going to be less wealthy, and it's just going to be complete chaos. And we are gonna fall behind in terms of education across the globe, I mean, it's really kind of terrifying because this is how countries fold.

Um, and I would argue that this is all very traumatizing at this point. Um, so, but we're really just about trying to equalize, um, the playing field that is the plan. Um, so I, I wanna keep a sort of, I know I'm, I'm kind of being, um, um, I don't know if I've, I've answered your question, um, at the end of the day, but it's really, I just wanted to come here to make sure that one of the things I wanted to make sure that I projected, and one of the things that I know that Carolyn, um, also wanted to project was the.

The idea that we are really all here for the people who are listening, right? Like, we really want people who are listening to know that we see you, we want you to be part of the conversation and we wanna include you. Um, you know, 'cause at the end of the day, it's about, about empathy and, and then really giving people dignity.

So that's part of parcel of my, my check this evening. 

Tim Villegas: So I have a, I have a question. Can I ask, ask a follow up question? 

Janet Roche: Yep. 

Tim Villegas: So, in your, in the, um, when you go to t society.com, uh, there's research and practice guides, and it looks like there's a, a research poster. 

Janet Roche: Yeah. We did that for the American, American neurological, uh, and, and a n fa found

Tim Villegas: foundation 

Janet Roche: of architecture, something like that. American Society 

Tim Villegas: of Interior Designers Foundation. 

Janet Roche: Well, that's the A SID that's, that was, that was the, um, impetus for the tool that we talked about, the TID evaluation, K through 12 tool. 

Tim Villegas: Uh, I, I wanna share this because, um, lemme see if I can do this right.

Um, let me see. Here we go. 

Janet Roche: Right. So, while you're doing, so, I wanna share, I wanna share 

Tim Villegas: this poster because I've never seen this before and I've never seen this connection between design and, uh, regulation or dysregulation for students. And so I find this really fascinating. This is like, thank you, literally the first time I've seen this.

Um, so I just wanna, um, mention a few things when, so th this, there's this great graph in front of me. Um, about which areas of schools, uh, were students most dysregulated? I'm not sure where you got this data, so maybe you can, we did it all 

Janet Roche: ourselves. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. Um, so, but it looks so, like, the highest, the highest areas of dysregulation would be like hallways and classrooms, cafeterias.

Those are, I mean, it sounds like transitions, right? Those are the, those are the areas of, of the school, right? Where you have a lot of transitions and then. Uh, what elements of the school design were determined, uh, most crucial. And then you have, uh, like kind of a word wall essentially, um, of things that are, uh, are important in design.

And so I really, this is really helpful and I think that thank you, our audience, um, are, you know, collective audience of, of, uh, of people interested in inclusive education would find this very fascinating. So I did put this link, the TID society in the Facebook comments, and then when we produce this as an episode, um, or y'all produce as an episode.

You can make sure to, um, include that. So 

Janet Roche: yeah, we usually do, we include all the resources and references and stuff like, 

Tim Villegas: yeah. That's great. No, it's, it's 

Janet Roche: proposal's. 

Tim Villegas: Fantastic. Janet, really, really appreciate it. Thank, thank you. Uh, anything, anything else before we kick it over? Yeah, I just wanna say that, 

Janet Roche: that schools can actually help to reduce, um, you know, this idea of trauma-informed design really can help to reduce, um, understanding it and, and where to put it, right?

Like where to put your most of your money. Like say maybe hallways is your best place to put it. Uh, we kind of knew that kids were dysregulated like in the hallways and then at least the gym and cafeteria. I mean, you just need not go to the cafeteria at lunch break and know, you know, the insanity. Um, and, um, but there's, there's real ways that we can use that information and then take, take what information we already know about design and how we can start mitigating some of those factors.

So it's really easy for us to, it's almost kind of like once we start to realize where the, some of the issues are and then, you know, and, and, and we're gonna need longitudal studies in order for this to kind of like be part of it. Um, I could talk to you about this for a long while, but I just wanna add one last thing.

Um. Just to, to be sure trauma informed design is being used, um, for the valdi, Rob Elementary School and, and, um, Valdi, Texas because of, they, I mean, the whole community was clearly traumatized, but they needed to put in trauma-informed design principles in order to, uh, you know, in order to help to reduce those kids' stress.

So with that, then it also then allows, um, for greater productivity, right? Less, um, dropout rates, um, less pregnancy rates and, and, and more, um, overall health and wellbeing. Um, so that's, that's our, that's our, that's our shtick. So thank you for allowing us to go. Yeah, 

Tim Villegas: of course. So, yeah, Janet, thank you so much for, um, for contributing to the live stream with this information.

Thank you. Okay. And then if you have a question for Janet or anyone, any of our other podcasters, make sure you put it in the comment section of the live stream. Um, and, um, and then follow up with us after if you are watching the recording. Okay. Um, Sam, I've got a question for you, Sam. So, um, I know with your work with Changing Perspectives, um, how concerned are you?

Uh, about the administration's anti anti DEI stance, like where, where do you think this will impact learners with disabilities? 

Sam Drazin: Thanks for your question. Um, I could probably go on and on for about an hour just on this question. I, and I think Ashley and Janet have already alluded to this, uh, I am very concerned, very, very concerned.

Um. It's really easy, I think, to get kind of confused as just a general person in the public about, you know, all the policies and the conversation and the white noise. But at the end of the day, from my perspective, um, as someone who, um, is a student who, um, had an IEP as a former classroom teacher who supported students with disabilities, uh, as someone who supports hundreds of schools annually across the country in creating inclusive environments for students with disabilities, um, this at the end of the day is going to hurt our students.

Um, so let me go into a little more information and unpack that. So first of all, I think one of the things I've noticed with the way in which the news and the administration is rolling out this anti DEI work is that they're very hesitant to even say the words diversity, equity, and inclusion. It's much easier to be anti something if you're not even saying what it is, and you're just listing three letters in a row.

And so I think it's important that first and foremost people recognize and define and name what is diversity. What does that mean? And the reality is our country is diverse. Our schools are diverse. The workplaces are diverse, right? When you go into, um, a grocery store, it doesn't say people with down syndrome.

You shop on IL one people with hearing impairments. You shop on IL two people who are neurodiverse, you shop on IL three, right? And so to set up our students, both with and without disabilities in our schools, to be successful out in society, we have to ensure that our schools are a microcosm of society, which is diverse.

So when I think about diversity, um, I'm sure, you know, we could all spend time talking about our own definitions, but I think about diversity as the presence of differences, whatever those differences are, right? Disability, race, gender, socioeconomic, religious, ethnic. And the reality is that no one person identifies as just one of those components, right?

So I like to think about it. We've talked about this when I've been on your podcast before, Tim. It's like we're all made up of an identity puzzle. So each of us is made up of puzzle pieces, and each piece of our puzzle is a component of our identity right now for students with disabilities. One piece of their identity is their disability.

And what I'm seeing with this initiative to NDEI and the recent, um, I don't know how else to say it, but almost like witch hunt for DEI programs, when the Department of Education put out their NDEI portal, they're pretty much saying we don't care about your identity. And when we strip human beings of their identity, disability being one, we are slowly dissolving who we are as people, right?

We are being forced to, and or call out those who are saying, hi, I'm Sam. I have a hearing impairment. I need an IEP, right? We're saying, oh, you can't say that anymore. So we're stripping people of components of their identity as a way to eliminate or minimize this sense of diversity, this presence of difference, and naming it and celebrating it, 

Ashley Barlow: right?

Sam Drazin: When we think about equity, right, the e for equity, we're talking about what are the actions that we take to ensure that we are providing just impartial and fair opportunities for all. Right. So that's an action. So we have diversity, we're naming it, and they want to take that away. They, they're actively saying that we want to take it away by launching something called an NDEI portal where people can go and submit and report, right?

So then when we get to equity, right, we're saying, well, actually we're not gonna make things equitable anymore. Right? And again, Ashley hit the nail on the head earlier when she said a lot of what these policies, and, and Ashley, if I'm quoting you wrong, let me know. But a lot of the policies, the trickle down effect is moving from where we've started to inch towards a social model of disability, back 50, 60 years to a medical model of disability.

And then when we think about inclusion, right? Inclusion is the outcome. Laurie just heard me talk a lot about this quote at the SEIA conference last week, but I love this quote by Verna Meyers that says, diversity is being invited to the party. Inclusion is being asked to dance, right? So we're saying, okay, we're actually gonna strip you of your identity.

We're gonna make disability something that is now viewed as able ballistic as medical model. We're going to eliminate opportunities to create equity, which is the key part of IDEA, with least restrictive environment and IEP. And now what we're gonna say is, well, we actually don't even really care if we are creating a welcoming environment, right?

Like the teacher in Iowa who had the you are all welcome sign in her classroom, who was asked to take it down? 'cause that is perceived as an opinion. So I think where we have lost so much, what I would say basic empathy and understanding is the fact that this isn't, from my perspective, this isn't a political issue anymore.

This is really human rights. This is civil rights, DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion does not just help those with disabilities. It does not just help those, um, who are a part of the LGBTQ plus community, right? This is everybody. This is universal at its core. Again, we all have an identity puzzle. We all have that puzzle.

Um, and we all need different things to be successful when it comes to equity and inclusion. So that's kind of just like my rant to make sure we all even understand what we're talking about. And I would really encourage folks, when you're talking with people and they're just saying, D-E-I-D-E-I-D-I-I would challenge people.

Do you know what it means? How do you define diversity? How do you define equity to, how do you define inclusion? Why would you want to in a school, in a neighborhood, in your HOA, wherever in your church, in your synagogue, doesn't matter in your sports team? Why would you wanna take that away? All that does is move us again from a social model of disability.

Not that we were ever fully there, but it's swinging us back to a medical model. It's moving us back to that, um, able ballistic mindset in which we view disability as something that is wrong. We view disability as a deficit to our system, right? It's when I hear, um, you know, that, um, Linda McMahon say that, oh, we wanna give kids an option to leave bad schools and go to good schools.

Well, why? First of all, I don't know how we define a bad school in a good school. But second of all, why are we not just investing time, resources, and energy to lift up the schools that are struggling in some way? Rather than just abandoning them. 'cause it is as, uh, I forget who mentioned it earlier, but it is going to create a segregation, right?

We know that private schools, um, aren't required to follow special education law. So students who, um, require extensive support needs are most likely not going to those schools. And so now what we're going to do is go back to more of an institutionalized model where we have these public schools that are serving our lower income students and our students with disabilities and every other student is going someplace else.

So I think there are huge impacts economically, academically, emotionally, socially. You name it. I think that's probably my 10 minutes. I didn't even get to talk about a few other things, but, um, hopefully that answers your question. 

Tim Villegas: Thank you, Sam. Uh, and let me just say, uh, I am having a great time with all of you and just hanging out and talking about things that are important to you, us, and, and to our community.

So once again, thank you so much for being a part of this. And for any, anyone who is watching live on Facebook, make sure to give us a, like a share and a comment in that live stream. We love to know that you're listing and watching. So, uh, let's go to our next podcaster. And that's Savita. Sundar, uh, how are you doing, Savita?

We didn't do, uh, we didn't do like the formal introduction. You were like working on your tech stuff. 

Savitha Sundar: I know. I'm sorry. I hope I wasn't too much of a distraction there. 

Tim Villegas: No, no, not at all. Not at all. I switch my 

Savitha Sundar: computer now too. Here. Every, everyone 

Tim Villegas: great. I yeah, we, we see you and hear you loud and clear. So, um, Savitha, what about, so you, uh, your background is in occupational therapy.

Um, I'm wondering what is the top concern for you, uh, and maybe other related service providers given this anti DEI.

Savitha Sundar: You know, um, honestly the biggest concern for me, and I think a lot of my colleagues is very similar to everybody else, are we making sure that all our students forget about the politics and the philosophies, but are all our students, especially the ones with disabilities that we focus on, do they still have access and supports and the services that they need to get the best quality education?

And it, it's more than enacting the law, it's more than the requirements. It's about creating school climates, um, that are places of belonging and safety for all students where everyone can thrive. And these DEI initiatives, um, you know, they have played a big role, I think in the day-to-day realities. Um, the way we interpret the law, right, is only when the school has an inclusive culture, then the way you interpret it is different.

So. Some of the ways that it spans out in everyday practices is access to technology, availability of resources. So funding is there for adaptive equipment, for adaptive seating, for alternative communication systems. Um, training for teachers, you know, general education teachers. There's, there's been so much of a, of, of, of an in, of, of, of a gain that we've received.

Uh, we have, uh, made in in teachers realizing the importance of inclusion and that requires training. And the funding for all of those, obviously, um, is impacted right now. And, um, the other thing that really stands out to me is the LRE. We, we know how LRE is subjectively interpreted in different parts, right?

Uh, and the same goes with related services too. You know, when least restrictive environment, what's least restrictive in one state is not least restrictive in another, another state, um, same related services are services that are required for a student to be able to benefit from special education.

That's the wording of the law, and that's just as ambiguous. So who determines what is required is always left to subjective interpretation. So without these DEI initiatives, we lose a lot of that intentionality. We lose the push to ask, are we being equitable? Okay. And, and is, the culture is, it's not just the law itself, it's about the school culture, the district's priorities, and even the therapist's perspectives.

Those are all based on the awareness of inclusion and awareness of the benefits of inclusion and the intentional way we have made it happen so far. So, um, because if we don't ask these questions whether we are being equitable, whether we're say serving all students, the status quo tends to favor what's easiest and not, not what's best for kids usually.

Um, and, you know, finally, I think, um, the, the biggest concern for me is the backsliding. Just as Janet talked about, we may go backwards, you know, educators, researchers, advocates have spent years pushing for inclusion and for more evidence-based practices to become policies and that help all students. And right now we are at risk of undoing that progress.

So that's really a big concern for me. And, and without that intentional push for equity, I think the system doesn't just stay the same. It, it gets worse. And, and, and that's what worries me the most. So, but at the same time, I also wanna stay hopeful. Um, you know, at, at this time, are service deliveries equitable?

Not always, right? So I think it's the spirit. That we need to uphold and stay hopeful. And I think related service providers, educators, families, they'll have to keep fighting the battle and more than the politics, it's about our kids. Right. And, and that's why we have to keep speaking up and, and pushing forward and making sure the schools are better for everyone.

Tim Villegas: Uh, can I, I, I wanted to jump in here because I think Ashley had, um, a point that she, she wanted to clarify about anti DEI and IDEA implementation. So, did you wanna, did, did you have something that you wanted to say there, Ashley? Well, 

Ashley Barlow: yeah, I mean, I think, I think what you just said at the end of that, savita is really important.

It's about, so what you said about like, the spirit of it. So just to be super duper clear, these anti DEI initiatives we're seeing impact the work of the Office of Civil Rights right now. Um, but funding for IDEA is, is staying the same. Um, and that's what experts have anticipated. I am not a funding expert, but that's what experts anticipated would happen.

So all the proposals, all the budget proposals to date have, um, status quo for at least part B, part B of idea. Um, so that's good news. And then also inclusion, when we think about it at schools is really least restrictive environment. Right? So that is funded and implemented by idea. Those two things are not currently technically being threatened, but I think like this discussion, I just wanna make sure this, this discussion is that everybody, our listeners understand, 'cause I know we understand, but I just wanna make really sure to our listeners that they understand that this is more about the spirit of the policies and the, the other funds that come in that help promote inclusive practice.

So, you know, there's funds by way of grants and projects and research and other things that promote inclusion. But actual idea funding and the implementation of IDEA should stay the same. Mentalities are undoubtedly changing and that's where we see this regression come in. Okay. I know it's a little nuanced, but I just didn't wanna be, I didn't want to confuse people when with the discussion that I started.

Savitha Sundar: Thanks, Ashley. I, I was also, I was, I wanted to, I know this is not something that has materialized yet at this point, and, and I know these funding are, nothing's changed in terms of IDEA. It's gonna be a different department probably taking over the implementation of the law. Um, my concern is that oftentimes when parents always feel like they have to fight for related services, they have to fight for what they think is fair for their kids.

And will their voices be heard at all anymore? Is the Office of Civil Rights open to looking into their grievances? Um, how is this going to be? Is prioritizing inclusion going to be seen as a bad thing by communities that don't care about, you know, if you don't have a child or an individual with a disability, if you don't have a personal relationship with somebody with disability, you really don't understand what, what's going on.

And then the support for inclusion, it'll just validate, um, some, some of the older, uh, beliefs that people have that a lot of funding is going into special education. And it's not fair when the majority of the students are suffering. But the thing is, when you give the funding to special education, you are inadvertently supporting the whole community, bringing those supports to the entire community.

And I think it's, it's also a call for action for us. As related services, our model is very medical. We're still working on remediating deficits with our students. We are trying to go into the social model, and that's where the inclusion efforts come in, right? We want our students to thrive in the environment, which makes the, the best, um, learning, which gives them the best learning opportunities.

So when related service providers can be providing supports in the classrooms and in the school communities, developing programs and things like that, I think it's more, it's also a more efficient way to use service providers. We're pretty fine thinly spread, um, in, in, in education. So it, it's a, it's a, it's a real, uh, problem for providing equitable services to all because those who fight for it end up getting more services and those who don't, don't get the services.

So we can give it equitably to everybody and make the community inclusive. I think. I think that understanding is important, that special education services benefits everybody in the school community. 

Tim Villegas: That's a great, great point. Savitha, thank you so much. Um, yeah. Special education. Yeah. I, I think there is this misconception that, um, special education, quote unquote special education funds are only for students with disabilities and so.

It's, it goes into that line of thinking like, it's so easy to segregate students because it's like, well, they're getting something special and that needs to be happening over in another special place. Right. Um, but yeah, just, it goes, it, it goes both ways. And I wish that general Unspecial education not so siloed, so that was a great reminder, so I appreciate that.

Um, okay. So if you, uh, liked what Savita had to say, if you liked what any of us had to say, let us know in the comments section of the Facebook live stream. Give us a like and a share. That'd be great. Uh, our next podcaster is Lori Bowl. Uh, Lori, so glad that you're here with us. Um, what are you hearing, um, from our educational colleagues around the world with regard to what's happening here in the United States, uh, and at, at the federal 

Ashley Barlow: level?

You're muted.

Lori Boll: Of course. I am sorry about 

Tim Villegas: that. No worries. 

Lori Boll: Um, that's a great question. Thank you for asking it. Um, I'm the executive director of Senia International and, um, we champion inclusion worldwide. Um, and just. It's just important to know, I think that yes, inter there's people around the world who are also being affected by all of this that's going into place.

Um, according to ISC research, there's 14,833 international schools around the world that are English speaking. Um, many of those are American schools, but, and so we may think, well, that those are the schools that would be impacted by all of these decisions, but actually, uh, students from the US attend international schools, whether they're American international schools or just simply international schools.

So, um, one of the main issues that has happened recently was, excuse me, the cut to USAID U-S-A-A-I-D, um, and the fact that many of the international school students are children of parents who work for U-S-A-I-D and they were given, you know, I think it was like 48 hours to. Pack up and leave the country.

And so, um, this had a huge impact on our students. Um, many of them being seniors in their senior year, suddenly having to transition back to the United States, um, and try to graduate, um, many IB students who were unable to take their, their assessments. Um, and besides that, it has this like domino effect because by lo, by losing many students, so for instance, one school lost 52 students, students, and they're a school of less than 300, excuse me.

So they lost a large amount of their students in doing that. Um, teachers have been cut, so people are losing their livelihoods. Um, besides the U-S-A-A-I-D workers, um, teachers are losing their livelihoods and having to return to the US as well, or wherever they're from around the world. Um, but one of the bigger impacts has been on the effect on the, what is called the Life centered Education Programs, the higher support needs programs around schools.

Because when these schools have lost so much funding. Due to the students lose leaving and there therefore lost tuition. Um, oftentimes these are the programs that are the first to go. And, um, that's a real shame because traditionally international schools were not inclusive of individuals with developmental disabilities, and they've recently become more and more so and are building in these programs.

And to lose these programs now, um, is, is really heart wrenching, um, to the communities. Um, so I would say that's where people are feeling the effects at the moment. There's also things like grant funding, um, from the US government and such, but, um, right now the, the focus is on the U-S-A-I-D and that impact.

Um, and then as a parent, um, I'm a parent of a 25-year-old son with, um, a developmental disability and my worry is his future in terms of Medicaid cuts and such. So, um, yeah, that's about it for me. 

Tim Villegas: Oh, thanks Laurie. Really appreciate that perspective. Um, and I, you know, I knew U-S-A-A-A-I-D, uh, the impact on a lot of other sectors.

Um, I did not even think about the impact of, uh, international schools. So that was, that's eye-opening. Wow. Because you said, 

Lori Boll: go ahead. A lot of our friends have lost their jobs for next year, or they've signed contracts to go to a new school, and that new school has had to call them and say, sorry, you can't come.

And it's been devastating. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, you know, I just wanna point out to you, um, because the narrative, a certain narrative around U-S-A-I-D is that it was, uh, bloated a waste of money, a waste of taxpayer money, um, fraud abuse. Um, yet so many stories have been coming out, um, about lives being completely upended, um, because of these, um, draconian drastic just cutting off of funding.

Yeah. And, um, it's just absolutely cruel. Right. Um. What's happening. And so the more, the more we hear about the impact, I think that that is really important. So thank you for, for sharing that. Uh, any, any other things that are on top of mind, um, with regard to this discussion of supporting, uh, learners with disabilities?

Savitha Sundar: Um, I just wanted to, um, say, Lori, you mentioned about your son who is an adult, a young adult. Um, and I think the DEI initiatives that are happening in different workforces really helps adults with disabilities to find a place of belonging in the work work workforce. And that's something that really concerns me.

Um, 'cause if we don't intentionally explicitly create those work, those workforces and work opportunities, then you don't understand the benefits. Like SAP mandated 1% of their workforce to be individuals with autism. And they did not do that out of a charity mindset. They did that. They initially did the charity mindset.

Um, but then they realized that their workforces, the morale of the workforce was better people. They were much more, um, efficient workers. Um, and this is now a very common finding that when you hire people with developmental disabilities, the workforce and the entire workforce is doing well. So when people don't understand that, how can you, you know, like.

Yeah, truly, you know, when you understand that you would obviously want to support DEI initiatives, it's not just the, the few things that comes to our mind when it comes to DEI, people think of their own personal experience of inequity and generalize it to everything. And, and that's just unfortunate. So 

Lori Boll: yeah, something that really hit me hard was when, um, Trump called out the FAA for hiring individuals with developmental delays and or disabilities.

And, um, you know, it's just crushing, I have no words to, to basically demonize and, you know, um, blame a plane crash disaster on individuals with disabilities. Just, just so wrong. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. And that, that feels like a, a million years ago at this point. I don't know about you. 

Janet Roche: It does. 

Tim Villegas: Right? Oh my goodness. I 

Janet Roche: just wanna say that some of the most brilliant minds that have ever roamed the earth are people with disabilities.

I mean, you know, I'm sure we would all probably have felt just fine with, uh, Stephen Hawking flying our plane. Wait, wait, leak, wait. Or at least being in the, the, what is that thing called in the, the, the runway? What is that thing? The cockpit, the tower, right? 

Lori Boll: Oh, the 

Janet Roche: tower. The tower. Right. Federal. Um, uh, and then we also had, um, FDR, right?

Ashley Barlow: Mm-hmm. 

Janet Roche: He had polio. He was basically in a wheelchair. 

Ashley Barlow: Yeah. Yeah. And that's 

Janet Roche: just, and those, that's the high level stuff. I'm sure there, you know, there's a lot of other people who have a lot of learning disabilities who have still rose to the top. 

Sam Drazin: It makes me think of as, as, as Lori was speaking, just like a reminder that I think, you know, so much of what's happening is, you know, we're, we're all responding based on our own lived experiences and everyone here this evening lives in the United States, but a really, a reminder that disability is.

The largest minority in the whole world, right? Like disability is not something that's just isolated to the United States. It's not something that's just isolated to K 12 schools, right? And Lori should about her son. And Savita piggybacked off of that, like disability is all ages, all states, all countries.

Um, so that was something that came to mind as a reminder. And the other piece that I always like to think about is this idea that, um, awareness is the foundation for empathy. And so as we start to see this, um, elimination of opportunity and, uh, value add of diversity, which is creating opportunities to build awareness of differences, what we do as a trickle down is we start to slowly, we're seeing it happen now, we start to slowly see a decrease in empathy, right?

If you know, there's the whole saying, like, ignorance is bliss. Well, ignorance is int bliss. Ignorance is scary when we are ignorant about something, when we don't understand why someone acts a certain way or speaks a certain way or communicates a certain way or perceives the world in a certain way.

Right. That's when we, we see this with our politicians, right? That's when they act in these ways that are istic. Um, that's when they act in ways that are disrespectful and intolerant, et cetera. So for our own sense of like humanity and empathy as a species, it's so imperative that we provide opportunities and we celebrate and we acknowledge and we, um, strengthen building awareness of those differences globally.

Right. 

Janet Roche: And I just wanna let let our listeners know that, um, um, Musk had basically called empathy a disease. Um, I don't know if it was last week or the week before. As Tim said, it's a little hard to keep up these days. So anyways, I'll, I'll shut up now. 

Tim Villegas: No, I appreciate, I appreciate your thoughts, Janet and Sam.

Um, let's turn to Diana. Um, Diana, you, um, I hope I got this right. You are involved with teacher prep, is that right? 

Diana Pastora Carson: Um, not so specifically anymore, but I, I have a background in that, yes. Okay. And, and I can speak to that a little bit. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. So, um, and feel free to adjust the, yeah, adjust the answer. Um, I'm really, so, you know, we, we've all been talking about like how, um, how the changes in focus at, uh, with the Trump administration, uh, how it's really affected our world.

So why don't we start there? How has it really affected your work, uh, especially with this anti DEI stance? 

Diana Pastora Carson: So, I am, um, an educator at a university level. I co-teach a course called Disability and Society, and I also am a retired, uh, elementary educator. So I'll speak from those perspectives. Um, has it changed what I do, um, at the, let's, let's just say at the university level or the elementary level, even though I'm retired, I still have a lot of connections and colleagues there and, uh, I know what I would be doing if I still was in the classroom at the elementary level.

So, to answer the question, has it has, am I changing anything in my approach? In light of the administration stance against DEI or diversity, equity and inclusion, and I'll add access and I'll add belonging as well. Um, no, no. I mean, other than looking over my shoulder to wonder if somebody's gonna turn me into that, that website, uh, that Sam mentioned, um, you know, no inclusionists to borrow or steal your term, Tim.

Uh, inclusionists will always be inclusive. It's who we are. It's not something that we do. It's not a performative thing. It is who we are at our very core. So in my role as a college ed educator, I haven't seen us doing anything different from an administrative level. Nobody's given us orders to stop doing what we're doing.

We still are working on creating safe spaces where everyone belongs and where everyone has their access needs met. Um, just last week we had a disability pride celebration on campus that many of my students went out to, and I posted pictures on social media of that. Um, we are still having other pride celebrations on campus as well.

We are still teaching in universally designed ways, designing our classroom and our content. Um, for access. We're still working within the realm of inclusionary practices. Um, as far as teacher prep, uh, I have not seen or heard of any changes at my university so far. I think in California in general, and I hope elsewhere, and I I know of many other programs in other states.

In general, our teacher prep programs at universities are committed to ensuring access for all students and we pass that pedagogy on to other, uh, students, to, to teacher prep students. Right. Um, I think that now it's important that we are also sharing with newer educators that may not have tenure. Um, I think it would be wise to instruct them to be as inclusive as possible without drawing attention to their inclusive practices.

If. They happen to be in a school or a district that is acquiescing to the administration's DEI stance. Um, but certainly not to not be inclusive. Right? Just be a little subversive about it so that you don't get fired. Um, get in my role, and I don't know if subversive is the right term to use, but just be strategic.

Um, be careful in my role as an elementary educator, which I'm, as I said now, retired from, uh, when I, if I had tenure, I would still be a hundred per percent committed to inclusion of all students. I'd still be doing the same things. I, I would treat all my students the way that I did before ensuring that they have, uh, an environment that facilitates that sense of belonging for all of them.

Um, continuing to have beyond awareness celebrations, which is a big deal, you know, at my previous school and at other schools that I support in doing these kinds of celebrations. Um, I'm attending one in a couple weeks at my former school, I think, um, in my neck of the woods and probably across the us the main changes that I've seen in, in.

We talked about this yesterday, in fact, Tim, um, the main change for educators that I'm seeing is that not only are we teaching in classrooms and practicing inclusion because that is who we are, but we are also forced to become somebody who we haven't always been, at least in my case. And that is somebody who's politically informed and involved in advocacy efforts.

I think for me, that's been the big change. I personally have always disliked politics. Like I just wanna bury my head in the sand and just do my thing in my classroom and know, and you know, just have it all work out. But now I don't have the luxury of burying my head in the sand. I have to speak out.

Like sadden said, this is about civil rights and the stakes are just too high. So some of the things that I'm doing now that I didn't necessarily do very much before, um, and trying to do these things and creating a balance so that I can maintain my mental health as well. But things like listening to reliable balanced sources for news, um, calling legislators, I've.

Been using five calls.org with success because it's super easy. Um, and, and I've been speaking out on social media as well as in person with family and friends and being sure to always amplify disabled voices when doing so. So I say, you know, have I changed anything in terms of what I do as an educator?

No. Am I more cautious? Yes. Am I more involved? Absolutely.

Tim Villegas: Uh, amazing. Thank you so much. That, that was, that was brilliant. Um, oh, thanks Tim. I think the, I, one of the takeaways, uh, that, that I heard is that, um, you are more involved, right? With speaking out and I, I feel like that's been my experience too. Um, especially with, um, the first Trump administration. Um, I feel like we were all kind of a, a lot of people were in shock number one.

Um, and so we were all just kind of trying to hold on. And with, with this round, it feels so different. I don't know about, I don't know. I mean, we could talk about that. We could talk about how, uh, how strong of, uh, especially in the educational space, how, how, how strong the, um, the ripples have, have been across, um, you know, not just disability, uh, not just special education, but education in general and public schools.

You know, there's so many aspects of, um, of our existence that, that are threatened as educators. And so, like what you said, Diana and Sam, and what everyone has been saying is that we do not have the luxury of, of sitting on our hands and going, well, let's just wait and see, you know, because that is exactly what has been told to me when I've had, and this is, this is Tim.

This is Tim talking a citizen, um, a citizen and a father. And, um, you know, uh, and a family, you know, with, with family members is, well, we'll wait and see, you know, and that's just not. That's not okay. I can't wait and see. Um, it's been however many days, and look what has happened. Um, so then what is our role?

Right? And I think that's part of what we are trying to figure out here, uh, with all of us together, but also, um, trying to figure out who, you know, who we can, who we can rely on for, um, for, uh, uh, information that's reliable. Um, who can we trust as, as, uh, as thought partners and or organizing partners, um, to move inclusive practices forward.

And then also, um, you know, just to support people who, you know, whose, whose lives have been upended because of, uh, decisions that have been made, um, with this administration. So, um, and what I'm hearing from everyone who is involved in this work is, is like, tell me what to do, right? Tell me where to sign up.

Like, where are the marches? You know, like, where do we go? And so, um, and I don't know the answer to those questions, so please, you know, if you're, if you're watching and listening to this, uh, you know, and, and you are, you have those strengths in organ, in organizing and community organizing, I think that you have a lot of people that will be behind you.

Um, and, uh, and we want to, we want to be part of, um, the, the solution here. Um, but yeah, we don't have the luxury of, of just waiting and seeing. Um, and then I also wanna bring up something that I think it was Ashley, you talked about at the beginning about funding, um, and how, uh, part B in IDEA, um, is said to be like off the table.

Like we're, they're not gonna touch it. Uh, but there are other parts of IDA, right? So there's early childhood, which I believe is C, right? And then there's D which is all the discretionary grants. And I'm, hopefully I'm saying that right 'cause I'm not expert at this. But, um, especially with this continuing resolution that that just happened or that's happening.

Um, I think that while it is being message that part B is fine, right? Um, it's also, they're also not saying the other parts. Are are fine as well. And so I think that there is a lot of risk right now on funding being, uh, moved around. And, uh, I think there's very little other than, you know, contacting legislatures, contacting our, you know, state, um, our, our, our state government and saying, you know, let's say everything goes to block grants.

How are you state government going to ensure, uh, the rights of students with disabilities? Because if everything goes back to the states, well, not that it, it was already at the state. Like I, I don't wanna uh, rehash that talking point, but, uh, all decisions are, are made by the states anyways. But as far as the funding goes, if the, if the funding is a no strings attached, block grants, then how are we going to put pressure on our state governments to, um, to fulfill the, the promise of IDEA?

So those are all things that I think that are really important. And another thing that I brought up with you, Diana, um, 'cause we, we just recorded a podcast episode together, uh, that I hadn't thought of and I'd love, uh, any of your takes on this is, you know, with, with this idea of school choice, uh, which really means private school vouchers, um, and, uh.

The potential of, uh, families, uh, who typically their, their, their students are children educated in public schools. Um, I think, I think that, that there's a potential for, uh, more segregation to happen with special schools. So you, if you have a number of private schools that are saying, Hey, we're gonna take your vouchers.

We'll take your vouchers. It's not special education vouchers or whatever, but it's like, you know, if we're going to this voucher system, um, I think that the potential of creating special schools where special schools take vouchers for students with, uh, that, that, um, would normally go to a school to support students with disabilities, I think that that is a very real danger.

Um, I don't know. I haven't heard anyone talk about it. Uh, but I, I am just kind of looking down the road and thinking that I think that that is, uh, that's a potential, that's a, that's a big red flag for me. Well, I, I don't know what you think about that, Ashley. 

Ashley Barlow: I definitely think that too. I, I used to be licensed in Ohio and I still do a lot of advocacy work in Ohio.

Ohio has, um, scholarships that are disability specific. They've got an autism scholarship and they've got another one that students with disabilities can take, um, to specialized schools and or to private schools. And so, you know, you see some, um, parochial schools, some other private schools in Ohio that have started to, um, do a, a good job, like an, an honestly good job for students with disabilities.

Um, but there are so many other, um, pitfalls to voucher systems. And the one is that it's a complete threat to inclusivity. Right? Um, so most of those schools are specialized. Some of them are inclusive in nature, but most of them are specialized where, you know, they're treating or, or treating, they're educating, um, students that are significantly impacted by autism or, um, students that are, you know, wicked smart, twice exceptional and you know, like wicked smart.

And oops. And also have autism. Um, it's time to give somebody some medicine, um, and somebody else will do it. Good. And it is, and you know, so all of the, so there's this risk of, um, disecting special education, the other, or inclusive education. The other, um, thing that I think happens, you know, kind of colloquially speaking is that if students start to take their money, um, to specialized schools, if our neurotypical, non-disabled students start taking money to specialized schools, what I fear is that, um, what's left in our public schools is not inclusive in nature because it's the students that don't qualify for other schools.

And the students whose parents can't advocate for 'em to go to other schools. And so then, you know, our kids in special education have less resources 'cause they've gone out to the private schools and they have less inclusive opportunities because, you know, you don't have enough kids to field the unified bocce ball team and your math class doesn't have anybody that can be a, a, um, a peer partner for you because you've lost that subset of people.

Um, so I really worry about, you know, kind of public schools just being a, a. Dumping ground, honestly, for lack of a better term. It's a terrible term, but it, it's terrifying to me. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, um, I'm not an expert on school choice. Have, uh, you know, I'm, I'm learning a lot these days, uh, about that.

But, um, I think it's definitely something we need to talk about as a community, right. Uh, because it is a stated goal of this administration, like absolutely stated. Uh, so, and, uh, let me tell you, everything, everything that he said that he's gonna do well, he or they, or, or, you know, the administration, everything that they said that they're gonna do, they're doing very sickly.

Sam Drazin: Um, I, I, I think the really, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I think the really scary thing about school choice is at a surface it looks very flashy, it looks great, right? It's like, oh, you can go to whatever school. Right? It sounds really exciting and promising and opportunistic, but to echo Ashley's, um, uh, thoughts, really, at the end of the day, it's the opposite of that.

It's not opportunistic, right? Because the kids who had the opportunity to go to the private school, whether there's a voucher or not, they're still gonna have the opportunity to go to the private school. 

Ashley Barlow: Amen. 

Sam Drazin: Um, and it really does start to, again, disintegrate the fabric of this diversity inclusion, and it starts to create a lot more homogeneous environments that are going to elevate opportunity of a few and limit opportunity for many.

Ashley Barlow: Tim, I wanted to touch on something else that you talked about a minute ago, um, because Sure. As as we were finishing up with Diana's comments, um, you kind of talked about like, what do we do? And I, I do have a list of things about what to do and, um, there's a little discussion happening online about the Five Calls app and it sounds like a lot of people know about five Calls, which is great.

Um, and I love Diana's. I I am anti app and I loved that you said that it's actually like a.com or.org. 'cause I'm like, oh, I downloaded the app. So, um, so that's a, that's another little hot tip, but, um, I realized really early on in the administration that I was advising clients differently. So in my law practice, I have a really collaborative, having been a teacher and being a parent, and actually, um, I.

Broke my back when I was a kid. So I would qualify for a 5 0 4 plan in school. And so, you know, I see, and I'm a mediator, I see things through the lens of many different people at the IEP table. And so I have this really collaborative approach and I don't file due process very often. Um, but since January I have advised clients really differently, um, for a lot of different reasons.

So one thing is with the OCR, um, changing its scope so significantly, um, I've had a couple of cases that I honestly probably would've filed OCR complaints on that I just, you know, I'm telling clients, well, we could, but it's gonna be a waste of time and therefore a waste of your money. Because I don't think the OCR is gonna take it up.

And in fact, I don't know that it's gonna go anywhere. So I think, you know, that's one thing that is, um. Something different. Another thing is, and Tim, you were kind of alluding to this, like state governments, the state departments of ED need to know what we're experiencing in schools. And so, um, I have actually filed, or I haven't filed, but I have sent to school districts, here's a state complaint that I will file.

Um, and I am going to start to file more of them because I think our state departments of education need to be more hyper aware of what's going on so that A, they know how to plan for it, and b um, when they talk to the federal government, they can say, Hey, we need your help. We need your funding for, um, anti-bullying campaigns and for these things that the OCR used to do, these DEI kind of initiatives, um, as well as just enforcement of our, um, disability specific, um, laws.

But the other thing that I want to say from a collaborative standpoint, and, and I would like not be true to myself if I didn't say this at some point here is. Now more than ever, it is vitally important that IEP teams have good communication and good collaboration. So if your IEP team is full of that negative kind of conflict, that's destructive, um, now's the time to turn it around.

And, you know, I, I fully believe that conflict can be ideological. It must be ideological. It, it that yields productive and effective change. Um, so now's the time to do that, and there's all kinds of resources out there to help you do it. I've got some, these other wonderful, um, colleagues here on this podcast have them as well.

There are some that are federally funded, you know, like the T Center, it's not funded anymore, but the T Center has all kinds of wonderful resources. Um, and, you know, there's books on just organizational leadership and teamwork that can be really, really impactful on IEP teams. So now's the time to really like, dive into those local relationships, at least to protect your children.

And then if you can impact more systemic change, um, with folks like the, like your hosts tonight, um, then join us. 

Tim Villegas: Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Um, well, I, I think we we're, we're almost done. And I, I think now it'd be a good time for us to, um, like take a collective deep breath, like, and, and, you know, blow out all the negativity.

And, uh, and then why don't we end with either something that, um, like a celebration, something that you're looking forward to, uh, something really amazing that you saw or heard or read. Um, and we can just end on a high note. What do you think? Does that sound like a good idea? Okay, so I'm gonna call, so I'm gonna call everyone out.

I'm gonna start with Savitha 'cause you're my top left. Okay. And then it'll be Ashley. So Savitha, sorry, you're first, 

Savitha Sundar: well, you know, to end this on a positive note, I feel like anytime some, some trouble comes in our life, it's a wake up call for us, right? To reassess things, to reevaluate. I think, um, I, whatever is happening in the.

Education department and the DEI anti DEI initiatives is really waking up a lot of people to speak up. So people who didn't know about DEI are now going to learn about DEI, people who had misunderstandings about DEI are going to be more educated about DEI and more educated about what IDEA does. People who don't know the expansion of IDEA are going to now learn about what IDEA is.

And, and so many of this is happening on a positive note. At the same time, it's also a wake up call for, for, for the times when we have, I've worked in three different states and multiple school districts as an ot, as an 800 person. And I've seen, um, not everybody's very responsible about their resources.

So this is a call for us to look into how are we using our resources? If you only had so much, how can you put them to best use? So when we come out of this crisis, hopefully we'll be stronger and wiser, um, in the way we use our resources and, and the way we understand, um, equity and the best ways to create an equitable community.

So I'm gonna. See this as a positive, as a, as a, a good opportunity, a wake up call. 

Tim Villegas: Amazing. Thank you Savita. I really appreciate that. Okay, Ashley and then Diana. 

Ashley Barlow: Yeah, I think the thing to celebrate, um, for me, like the thing that has brought me the most joy and excitement is the impact of grassroots advocacy.

So we saw that in that Texas versus Becerra, parenthetically now Kennedy case Absolutely. Where the disability community, you know, really rallied and said, Hey, this is what 5 0 4 did, and both the plaintiffs and the defendant. And so by way of joint motion said, Hey, can we have a time out here and can we pause?

Um, now it's kind of a good bad because the reason they wanna pause is because the anti DEI executive orders actually do what they wanted. Um. A whole lawsuit to do. But, um, we saw them say, like explicitly in the paperwork, oh, and by the way, disability community, we didn't actually wanna make 5 0 4 Uncon unconstitutional, which is unequivocally wrong.

It, there's, the heading is 5 0 4 is unconstitutional. Um, but that tells us that they listen to us. So when we rally and when we use our voices, they listen. Um, and so I think that's exciting and, and I just really wanna empower people to continue to make those calls and to be public. I do think there's so much, is, is too much of a good thing, right?

Um, but not by way of calling legislators and getting word out to the decision makers. 

Tim Villegas: Thank you, Ashley. Okay, Diana, 

Ashley Barlow: and then Lori, you're, you're on mute.

Diana Pastora Carson: Silly me. The first thing that came to mind is this guy. This is my brother, hands and gentlemen. Yes, that's Joaquin and he will be watching this. Joaquin was institutionalized for 15 years of his life. Our family fought in court for three years to get him out of an institution, and he's now my next door neighbor.

He was a person who was in a special school for autistic kids for 10 years of his life, and he was, um, denied access to a lot of the things that would've led to a higher life quality, higher life quality outcomes for him. And so I think I just am so thankful, like as we're talking about this and hearing everybody's expertise and everybody's stories and everybody's passion, I think of Joaquin and I am so grateful.

I have so much gratitude for the journey that we have had together. Um, and for all of you who are part of Team Joaquin, um, so to speak, and the team, you know, USA and team, all of us Inclusionists, so 

Tim Villegas: thank you. Thank you, Diana. Okay, Lori, and then Janet. 

Lori Boll: Yeah, well, I am celebrating the fact that, um, I just got home from Cambodia and where our organization held a conference and we had 430 educators from 333 countries attend, um, our Belonging and Beyond Conference.

And that's just an important and exciting because our organization was, as you mentioned earlier, grassroots, um, for advocacy. And you know, our conferences early on were consisted of eight or 10 people. And, um, we sold out this time. I think that if we hadn't been short on space, we would've had at least a hundred more people there.

So, um, the drive to be inclusive internationally at international schools is high. And as a bonus, we had Mr. Sam Drazin as our keynote speaker. Um, and I'm quite impressed because I am super jet lagged and can barely function. And yet Sam is always eloquent as ever today. So 

Tim Villegas: thank you, Laurie. Okay, Janet, and then Sam, 

Janet Roche: am I on mute?

Oh, um, that was, that was lovely. Whoa. On our Inclusive Designers podcast, we say Stay well and stay well informed. And I think we do need to stay well informed by listening to the voices that are here, um, who are trying to amplify correctly what DEI stands for. Um, so please listen to everybody that's here.

Um, and then if you have. Excuse me. If you have your own inclusive, um, podcast or just wanna be a part of the inclusive, great. Please come join us. We need to have more voices. We want to have more voices. We're inclusive. I know that sounds silly, but we are. Um, and I just wanna, um, also then add kind of like, kind of adding to what even Diana just said.

Um, you know, we came to this, we were planning on doing something kind of anyways as a group, but the time seemed right and the time was important and, you know, and what better way to support our schools here and understand the kind of needs that we need in terms of inclusion and that conversation. So I really implore that all of our listeners today really start to think about, you know, again, kind of what they can do to support the inclusive, um, community.

Um, and you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's super important right now. And, and, and to, to Ashley's point, I think that will be the coming out of the Ashes, right? Like, I think that that's the other part, right? Like I have, like, I, I think as an inclusive person, I think I'm hopeful most of the time, even though I can really get pissed off at things.

But I think that that's my passion. And I think there's, there's, there's opportunities here. Like I think maybe then Laurie said that it really does allow us. To then rebuild maybe the way that we always wanted to have it rebuilt. 

Ashley Barlow: That's the hope. All right. Fantastic. 

Sam Drazin: Sam. Oh boy. It's rough being last. I was jealous of that.

Got to go first. Um, well, I am coming off of, just to kind of echo what Lori said, such an inspiring week last week in Cambodia at the, at Senia, um, conference. Um, it was a great week to actually be out of the country and on the other side of the world, um, and be celebrating belonging and inclusion with others from so many other places.

Um, I think if I had to put a positive spin on this, which is a struggle, um, I would say, I think in times of adversity, we come together as a stronger, unified front. One of the things that I've noticed over the last decade or so is that there have been more and more, um, nonprofits formed individuals podcasts, movies, like the disability inclusion movement, I feel like has really taken off in the last, you know, maybe.

Five or six years. And so, um, and, and that's great and it's super exciting, but I think a lot of people have taken off kind of in silos. And one of the positives that I'm noticing now is that when this work is being threatened, when this work is being misrepresented, and when this work is being viewed as a negative, when it actually is an asset to our society and our communities, is that all the folks that are supporting this work, all the folks that are seeing disability from an asset perspective, all the folks that are moving that needle to a social model are really coming together.

And I'll use the a SL sign language for family, right? Like we're really coming together, um, in this level of, um, uni uniformed opportunity and strength, um, and I, inclus and inclusion, no pun intended. Um, and really looking at how do we see all people as people and how do we strengthen the fabric of our learning communities, even in spite of, um, it being threatened and barriers that we need to push through.

Tim Villegas: Thanks, Sam. Sam, you? Yeah, no worries. You nailed it.

Woo. Um, well, I am so, uh, privileged to spend time with each and every one of you, uh, talking about things that, that matter, um, inclusion matters, and, uh, all the people that joined us on livestream, uh, there's a, um, I'm still a live stream novice, so I'm sure that there's way for me to look at all the comments.

Uh, I haven't figured it out. So thank you, uh, for all of your comments. And, um, uh, sorry we didn't get to some questions. I'm sure there are some questions. Um, before we go, I just wanted to, um, uh, remind everyone. We, we are podcasters in a group called the Inclusive Pod Network. Uh, we've been around for a over a year, um, meeting, you know, very infrequently, uh, trying to support each other in our podcasting journey.

Uh, we'd love to have you, uh, join us if, if that is something that is interesting to you. Um, the, the majority of us are. Uh, in the, you know, educational space, you know, early childhood, um, K through 12, um, space looking to, um, make, uh, inclusive schools and, and, uh, uh, inclusion a reality for learners with disabilities.

So if you have a podcast that is in that vein, please let us know. Uh, we'd love for you to join us, uh, in our meetings and just collaboration. So, um, before I let everyone go, I'm, I want to take a group picture. Can we take a group picture? 

Ashley Barlow: Yeah. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. All right. So I think I set it up. So everyone just look at their camera and smile, and I think we're good to go.

Okay. Here we go. Ready? 1, 2, 3. Can we see Oh, that, yeah, you look great. You look great. All right. I'll share that. I'll share that on social. All right. Uh, from everyone at the Inclusive Pod network and, um, uh, think Inclusive and MCIE, thank you so much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate it. Uh, and we will, uh, catch you all later.

Now, all of you on Riverside, you stay where you are. I'm gonna cut the live feed on Facebook and then we will debrief for just a few minutes. Does that sound good? Perfect. Okay. Lemme know.