Shelley Moore Transcript === Shelley Moore: If you are a classroom teacher and you are wondering where kids are, go, go get them. You're welcome because you will not believe the difference of the community that will be created when you open your doors. If you're a special educator or a support teacher, find one classroom teacher to try something new with and share the heck outta that. People all of a sudden will be like, oh, hey, I want that. Hey, I want that. Sometimes it feels like. Working with one person isn't an impact, but like the sea star. What makes an impact to that one? Those stories spread. Parents talk. Teachers talk. Every time I work with a teacher for the first time, they're like, it was so helpful when I opened my door, I had access to you. Another person to do this work with, and every time I do it, they're like, this help more than just this kid. Sometimes it feels like we can't change everything at once. Find one person, one kid, and show people. If people push back, they've never seen it before. Mm-hmm. Show them what's possible. It's hard to unsee. Tim Villegas: Hi friends, it's Tim Villegas. This is Think Inclusive. Who you just heard was our dear, dear friend Dr. Shelley Moore. Haven't heard of her? Here is some info based in British Columbia, Canada. Dr. Shelley Moore is a highly sought after inclusive education researcher, teacher, consultant, and storyteller. She's worked with school districts and community organizations around the world. Her research explores how to support teachers. To design for all learners in grade level academic classrooms that include students with intellectual disabilitiesusing strength based and responsive approaches. Shelley completed her undergraduate degree in special education at the University of Alberta, her master's at Simon Frazier University and her PhD. At the University of British Columbia, thanks so much for being here with us today. We appreciate each and every one of you listening to or watching Think Inclusive MCIE's podcast that brings you conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. And while you're here, make sure to hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you are so you can keep getting think inclusive in your feed. In this episode of Think Inclusive, we welcome Dr. Shelley Moore to discuss the challenges and successes in the realm of inclusive education.We get personal talking about Shelley's experience raising toddlers and delve deeply into the issues educators face in promoting inclusive practices. We address systemic challenges in Canada and the United States, the importance of community and collaboration among educators and specific practical steps for advancing inclusivity in schools. We also discussed the concept of independence, an agency in students with disabilities, the misunderstandings about inclusiveness and the role of self-advocacy. SShelleytells us about outside Pin Consulting. Her company aimed at fostering diverse voices and expertise in inclusive education. And finally, Shelley and I talk about mindfulness and how it could possibly help educators in their day to day. Before we get into my conversation with Shelley, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this season. IXL. IXL is a fantastic all-in-one platform designed for K 12 education. It helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress seamlessly. Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources. Well, that's IXL. As students practice, IXL adapts to their individual needs. Ensuring they're both supported and challenged. Plus, each learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively address any knowledge gaps. Interested in learning more, visit ixl.com/inclusive. That's ixl.com/inclusive. All right, after a short break, my conversation with Dr. Shelley Moore catch you on the other side. ​ Tim Villegas: doctor. Shelley Moore, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast. Shelley Moore: Thank you. I love coming to the Think Inclusive Podcast. Tim Villegas: We love having you. We love having you. Anytime, Shelley Moore: anytime. I'm always, I'm always covered, Tim. Every time. Tim Villegas: That's great. That's great. Um, how are you doing right now? Like, like, um, you know, do like a body mind check. Like, what's, like, how are you, how is Shelley. Shelley Moore: That's such a great question. Um, well I have two toddlers if that gives context for anything. Tim Villegas: Yeah, it does. Um, Shelley Moore: parenting is so hard and they are almost two and four, and so they are ruling the roost and they're amazing and I love them, but I am on a steep learning curve because everything I know about life, they're reteaching me. Tim Villegas: And so what are, what are their ages exactly? Shelley Moore: Uh, they're one and three, but they turn two and four in May. Tim Villegas: Okay. Okay? Mm-hmm. Yeah. You are in it right now. I am Shelley Moore: in it. In it. There's no eating alone. There's no sleeping alone. There's no nothing alone. And you know, I used to like having clean clothes and. You know, brushed hair No more. No more. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. But they're Shelley Moore: so cute. Tim Villegas: They're so cute. They're so cute. Shelley Moore: So there's that. Yeah. So that's, that's all encompassing. Tim Villegas: Mm-hmm. Shelley Moore: Mm-hmm. Tim Villegas: Um, Shelley Moore: and things are busy. Things are really busy. Um, lots of travel, which is great. Working with some pretty incredible communities to do the good work of inclusive education. Um, more important than ever, as you know. Tim Villegas: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And, Shelley Moore: uh, and I find that like, this job can be a little lonely. And so just really making an effort to connect with my people, especially when life feels overwhelming in the world, and remind each other that we gotta stick together. Um, and you're one of those people, Tim. Tim Villegas: Oh. Oh, thanks Shelley. Appreciate that. Well, that's, that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, let me, so let me reflect with you for a minute here. Uh, my kids are 18, 15, and 12. Oh, Shelley Moore: you have three? Tim Villegas: I have three. Yeah. Shelley Moore: I want three. Tim. Tim Villegas: Well, you know what? I, I hope you do. I hope you do. Shelley Moore: You're kind of your wife. It too. Hey, Tim Villegas: uh, we're in it. Yeah, we're in it. That we're in a, in a different, well, like, so, um, it's like different stages of life because Totally. Um, like when you have toddlers, it's like, you don't get sleep. You still don't get sleep, but like, it's just a different kind of like not getting sleep. Um, and then, you know, you're like. Um, it's like a lot of re routines, you know, like bathroom routines, changing diapers, uh, feeding, um, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And then now it's like taking them everywhere. Like I take my, you know, we go to cello lessons and we go to, my youngest is in color guard, so she does like the, the color guard practice. Uh, and my oldest, uh, is in college now, uh, and, and having a, a good time and, and really thriving. So really excited about that. That's Shelley Moore: awesome. Tim Villegas: But, um, yeah, it's, we're, we're in it for sure, for sure. And isn't it wonderful to have a partner to, you know. To do that with. So Shelley Moore: I just like Tim Villegas: happy about that. Yeah. Shelley Moore: I just like, 'cause my mom was a single mom and as soon as I became a mom, I'm like, ma, how did you do this? How did you do this? So just shout out to all single, single parents out there. I know, Tim Villegas: I know. Partner. Shelley Moore: This makes it manageable for sure. Tim Villegas: Exactly. Exactly. Um, and then if I can do, if I can do a little. Body mind check. Uh, I'm having a, this has been a difficult week. Yeah, it has Shelley, it's been a difficult week. So, um, just with a lot of the news and, uh, I feel like I could say that I. Over the last few years, I could say that any day of the weekend, it just feels like it's relevant. So yeah, there's just a lot going on. There's a lot going on, but really, and we're Shelley Moore: watching, we're watching all the things going on for us, and, uh, and I, uh, I, I, um, scared and wanted, wanted just help and I don't know how, and it's. I mean, I have an extra room. You could wanna bring your family up to Canada for a few. Tim Villegas: No, it's scary. Yeah, it's scary. It's scary. Um, but very privileged to be able to, um, not only have a conversation with you, but also do this work Yeah. Of, um, of trying to equip people to be inclusive and, um, excuse me. Being able to do this work and being able to talk to so many different people, uh, that wanna move inclusive practices forward. Um, so I'd like to start here with our conversation. Uh, you talked to a lot of educators from not only in Canada, but in the United States and all over the world. Uh, what are you hearing as things that are on top of mind that are important to them? Um, things that they're just trying to figure out right now? Shelley Moore: I think it's, uh, I think it's really hard to be an educator right now. Um, I know here at home we're really struggling with lack of resources. Um, even people who are like, yes, let's do it. Let's move. Inclusion are just so struggling. Um, with the misinterpretation that inclusion is just dumping kids in a room, you know, without any support around professional development and just resources around staffing. And, and it ends up, what ends up happening, and you probably see this too, is people start to push back against inclusion instead of advocating. For more resources to be used in inclusive ways. And so then what I start to see is, well, there's not enough resources. So then we start to move backwards and be like, okay, let's pool the resources and open all these programs. So that's like where we're kind of at right now in Canada is, uh, people just don't know how it's possible with the resources that are available. Mm-hmm. Shelley Moore: And unlike the states, we don't, we can't rely on, we don't have any law. We don't have any policy. So, you know when, when people are struggling, the goodness of your heart is not enough, right? And so there's just no accountability for, you know, at the government level to provide. And so that's creating a lot of tension and scapegoating inclusion to be the problem instead of other things. And so that's kind of, Tim Villegas: where does that sound familiar? Shelley Moore: Right. Totally. I don't, so that's a lot of the struggle. Mm-hmm. Um, when I do work, um, overseas, it's kind of like inclusion light. Tim Villegas: Mm-hmm. Shelley Moore: Because, you know, the schools, their international schools, their private schools, and they're starting to see their population change. Um, and there's a lot of fear because they have never served kids with disabilities before. And so they're kind of, you know, dealing with. Fear and bias that obviously still exists in North America, but in a different, different way because, you know, the, the population that they're starting to consider is what we started to consider in the seventies and eighties. Right. So, you know, populations are changing and demand is increasing. So, you know, so there's a lot of fear over there and wanting to do Right. And not knowing how. Mm-hmm. And then when I'm in the states, the top of people's minds right now are. How do we do this work when all the funding for DEI efforts are now being threatened? And like, wait a second, wait a second. How, how, how do we talk about inclusion of disability and not about race? How do we talk about inclusion of disability and, and not about like equity work? And so it, it becomes this, this mesh of intersectionality and trying to like. Divide and conquer. And then it just becomes this, this intersection of impossibility for people. And, and then what we do is we get overwhelmed and give up and our mental health is affected and our wellbeing is affected, and it all kind of, at the end of the day. It's just really awful for kids and families and it's, Tim Villegas: yeah. Yeah. Shelley Moore: I think it's really hard right now. It's really hard right now. Tim Villegas: It's really hard right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, uh, I think it's okay to name that and for people to, to know that, uh, we see that and, and I think that we feel it as well, even though I'm not, I haven't, you know, been in a classroom for quite a while now, but, um, I. It's something that is on, on my mind all the time. Um, and, uh, this is a random question, but we're gonna go there 'cause I know that you're, are, you're, you're good with it. So do you, do you personally, this is just like, not even professionally, do you personally do any sort of like meditation or any sort of like mindfulness? Shelley Moore: Such a good question. Um. I probably should do more. You know what I find, like, just like where my quietness is, uhhuh is where I drive. Okay. So just after I do a, a big, have a big workshop day or a big presentation day. Um, 'cause usually the question is, well, what do you listen to? What are your pockets? What are your music? And I'm like, honestly nothing. I sit there with my mind. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There's Shelley Moore: nothing, I mean, I even turn off the fan sometimes. Um. And that's probably where I have find my, my most quiet kind of thinking times. Um, I probably need to create some spot time where I'm trying to not think. Maybe I'll try to do that while I'm driving. Tim Villegas: Yeah. But yeah, Shelley Moore: it's, Tim Villegas: yeah, Shelley Moore: it's, uh, not, I, no, not really. Okay. Tim Villegas: So what do, Shelley Moore: do you make time for that? Tim Villegas: Um. I do, but most, like most recently, so. Shelley Moore: Okay. Tim Villegas: Um, what I think it, and I'm gonna tie it back to education because even when I was in. The classroom and mm-hmm. And, uh, this was, I feel like maybe in the, like the 2010s, um, social emotional learning was really kind of getting into the literature and people were talking about like, what does that mean, mindfulness and stuff like that. And I think even at that time I was just like, yeah, yeah. Like totally, totally. That sounds nice. You know? And I certainly wasn't a, I wasn't like. This is, um, I, I wasn't part of the indoctrination crowd, which yeah, certainly there's a contingent out there that is like, that's all part of the indoctrination quote unquote. But, um, for me it was like, I don't really know if that really makes a difference. Right. And, um, I've been just personal growth wise trying to figure out what that looks like for me. And I. It wasn't until I had some very practical, like really, really practical things to practice mindfulness and meditation that I was like, oh my gosh. Shelley Moore: Is it, are you noticing a difference? Tim Villegas: Yes. Shelley Moore: Oh, for me. Really? Yes. That's, that is like. Interesting because just the look on your face right now was just like, this is good, Tim Villegas: this is good, this is good. Mm-hmm. And, um, and I'm not trying to promote any particular thing, um, necessarily, uh, but I will say I think that there is, uh, you know, talking about everyone's being overwhelmed and like reacting to everything, there is something really, um, calming. Grounding about being able to be present and letting things and emotions and situations kind of wash over you as opposed to like completely like overtaking you and overwhelming you. Um, so I think that that is worth. Everyone to explore whatever that means for them. You know, Shelley Moore: just what you said just sounds so nice, like just to be present and to not just let emotions wash over you. You know what, Tim? If you create a podcast of just your voice, I would. Tim Villegas: All right. All right. There we go. A mindfulness podcast with Tim Villegas. There we go. The last thing I thought I would ever do, Shelley Moore: I'm in, I'm in, I'm game. Tim Villegas: Okay. Okay. Um, I think there is something to do, whether, you know, whether you find your peace driving without music or walking, you know, without any music. Sometimes I do that. Or, you know, any of these kind of practices. I, I think it's, it's, it's worth looking into 'cause we need something practical to get through. Mm-hmm. Um, just the world that we live in. You know what I mean? Shelley Moore: Yeah. I, I'm writing it down. Tim Villegas: Okay, good, good. Do it. Um. Okay. Do it. Um, speaking of practical steps that educators can take, um, are there any, any things, I'm sure you get asked this all the time. We do too. What can I do, give me something to do to move inclusive practices forward in my school or district. What, what are your, what are kind of your, your go-tos? Shelley Moore: Um, my number one is find someone to do this with. Find one person in your school to do this with. 'cause you can't do this by yourself. Number one, go find someone. Number two. Um, when a classroom teacher asks me, what can I do? I say, go down to whatever end of the building houses. The students who are not in your class go down there and ask for one, go say, I want one, give one to me. And, uh, because I think there's a lot of assumption that we can't, we can't. That's not how what we do here, you know? And I was actually had, um, a good friend of mine, um, she teaches at a high school. And at high school, usually kids are self-contained in life skills programs. And so I asked her, and I'm just like, well, where are the kids with intellectual disabilities in your school? And they're like, well, they, they kind of like, I think are a part of like gym and art and stuff. And I'm like, well, I. Why aren't they in your class? She's like, well, 'cause they don't register in my class. And I'm like, well, go get one. Go get one. And so she's like, can I, I'm like, go run, go, go get one. And so then she texted me a couple days later and she's just like, can I have more than one? I'm like, yes, more than one. And so she went and talked to the department head and so they're setting up in the fall. To enroll two students in her economic theory, grade 11 academic class with two students who have intellectual disabilities. And they put two in there so that they could get staffing that would work. And she's like, I'm so excited. And I'm just like, I'll help you. And so I think like sometimes if you come into a school and it's just not, not prac, it's just not something that has been practiced historically. Sometimes you don't even realize that it's allowed. To happen, you know? Yeah. But go, go get 'em. Go get 'em. And uh, there was another teacher who actually came to me and when I was school based, and he goes, I just feel like there's a voice. You know, I talk about inclusion and equity and diversity, but how can I talk about those things when there's voices in my class that are clearly missing? Like, can I, can I have someone? And I'm like, yes, yes you can. And so I think, you know, if you are a classroom teacher and you are wondering where kids are. Go, go get them. You're welcome. Because you will not believe the difference of the community that will be created in your class when you open your doors. Um, if you're a special educator or a support teacher, I think sometimes you feel like I. There's no one, no one out there who wants to do the work, right? And so sometimes if you can just find one person, one classroom teacher to try something new with, and share the heck outta that, um, people all of a sudden will be like, oh, hey, I want that. Hey, I want that. I want that. You know, and, and sometimes it feels like. Working just with one kid or one person isn't an impact, but like, it's, it's like the sea star, you know, the sea star, you know, it makes an impact to that one. And those stories spread. Like parents talk to each other, teachers talk to each other. And every time I work with a teacher for the first time, a classroom teacher for the first time, every, every time, they're like, it was so helpful because when I opened up my door, I had access to you. I had access to another person to do this work with, and every time I do it, they're like, this help more than just this kid. So, you know, I know that sometimes it feels like we can't change everything at once. And so don't start small. Find one person. Find one kid, and just show people. 'cause if people push back often, they've just never seen it before. So show them. Mm-hmm. Show them what's possible. 'cause it's hard to not, it's hard to unsee. It's hard to unsee Tim Villegas: it is that, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think for special educators who are doing, like what you said, this work and, and doing like the next right thing for, you know, for their students, uh, it really motivates them and like it helps them to keep going. Shelley Moore: Yeah. Tim Villegas: Right. Because if you, if you stop. If you just stop and you're like, well, nothing is gonna change. Um, then it's, it's harder to stay motivated. That's kind of why I like going to conferences and like meeting with other like-minded people or is so important because then you, you get your bucket filled back up and you're like, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I can do this. Mm-hmm. And I'm not the only one who thinks this way and it's working for them, or, you know, they're doing something really cool. So, um, I think that that's really important. Have you been insp like, um, have you been inspired recently? Like with what's either a story or an idea or anything like, is what's kind of filling you up right now? Shelley Moore: Oh, okay. So what is filling me up right now, and I kind of mentioned it already, is like one thing that I was really missing was the community in this job. And I get to go to a lot of communities and it's amazing. But like I was missing the relationship parts of community that, you know, I would use to get into school. Like the collaboration and with families and students and other colleagues. And I was really missing that. 'cause that's where I get, like you say, like where my bucket gets filled and when I learn. 'cause I still need to learn. Right? Mm-hmm. And so one project that I'm, I'm loving right now is, um, our team is expanding to include multiple expertise. 'cause here's the other thing, I'm not an expert at everything. I mean, there's things that I can speak to, but like, I can't fill all the lanes and I don't wanna fill all the lanes. And so, you know, perfect example is, um, I'm not an early childhood educator. There's so many questions right now around how do we support students in, in childcare settings and in early preschool and, and primary. And I'm like, I like high school kids. My research is in high school area. And I'm like, how do I become an expert in early childhood? And I'm like, I don't need to become an expert in early childhood. Who is someone. They can work with who has aligned philosophy and has that expertise in early childhood or, you know, um, I have always wanted to create space, um, on this platform for self-advocates. You know what I mean? To like have their voice be shared and families have their voice be shared. So we're slowly expanding our team to kind of fill in. Some of these gaps that I can't, that I can't fill in. And as a result, um, I'm working on some, just some incredible collaborative projects that I have just been craving. Um, you know, like I'm doing, uh, uh, inclu inclusion. Um, universal literacy, um, in inclusive classrooms for a kindergarten class. Me and a kindergarten teacher are working together. Hmm. Um, I just started working with, uh, an inclusively, an inclusive and neurodiverse affirming occupational therapist. So we're doing a project on how to support OT in the classroom, and I'm like, I don't need to become an ot. I need to find an OT that aligns. And so it's kind of creating this lovely little collective, and we're calling ourselves outside pins because Shelley Moore: the metaphor Yes, yes. So I'm, I'm super inspired by that because, uh, people are con contacting me who want be involved and, um, I'm connecting with people who wanna be involved. And so it's, and so when you feel alone and the world feels hard. You know, fi finding someone who aligns that, you don't have to convince them like they're on, they're on, they're on the bus. Um, so let's do something, do some magic. And we're just getting really great feedback, um, from people who, who we're engaging with. And so I'm just, it's, it's, it's keeping me going, Tim, I'll tell you. That's Tim Villegas: good. That's good. Shelley Moore: Yeah. I love Tim Villegas: it. I love it. Um, tell me more about. Outside pin, because I think you are outside PIN consulting, right? Shelley Moore: Yeah, outside PIN consulting. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah, because you finished your doctorate. Uh, yeah. Dr. Moore. Dr. Shelley Moore: Moore. Tim Villegas: So hard and, and so is it, so now, now you're kind of in this other phase of taking the world with inclusion. Shelley Moore: So coming, coming a doctor. Um, was probably the hardest thing I've ever done, like even harder than parenting. And so I'm really proud of myself for doing it. But like I still feel a little bit like a fraud. Like I found a cheat code to life. 'cause I am not a person who, there would've been a, an a, a path to PhD dom, you know what I mean? Like, I was not a person who, uh, did well in school in academia at all. And so because of that I knew that like. I, I, I didn't feel called to academia in the same way as my colleagues. Um, and so like, and I still teach, like I, I still teach at University of British Columbia and I'm still involved in research projects that I love, but that's not, that's not everything I want to do. And so a lot of the kind of questions that I had, and it was so funny because where this all came from was I was stuck in LA traffic with Katie Novak. Okay. Tim Villegas: I've been there, not with Katie. Not with Katie Novak, but I've been in LA traffic. So yes, so LA traffic for two hours, and Katie Shelley Moore: Novak looks at me and you know her pace. Like she's on her speed is no one's speed. Like she is the most productive person I know. And she looks at me, she's like, so what's your plan? I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, well, you have your PhD now. What's your plan? And I'm like. To continue. She's like, no, go bigger. Go home, Shelley. What are you doing? And so she was like, you need to hire more people. And I couldn't, I had this barrier in my mind that I was just like, with hiring new people, what that would mean is I would train people to do my presentations. Like that's what it looked like in my brain. And I'm like, I have no interest. In doing that at all, like my disclaimer on every presentation I do is that it's not training because the goal is not to do what I do. Right. The goal is to co-construct something that's meaningful for you and your community. Like that's inclusion to me. And uh, I'm like, we're completely compromising the integrity of inclusion if I'm trying to create more me. Like that's not the point, right? And she's like, no, no, don't create more yous. Fine. Allies, find collaborators who align to you. She's like, gimme three people right now who are three people right now that you would wanna work with. And so I, I listed three people. She's like, okay, by the next time we talk you need to talk to them. And I'm like, okay, Katie, no, back. Like, she's like my personal life coach. And so, oh, Tim Villegas: seriously. No, I know, I know. Shelley Moore: And so I, because I have a little team that I work with, just like for administration purposes, 'cause I have like negative executive functioning skills and so I. Ran it past the team and they're like, well, let's try it. Let's try it. Let's do a little pilot. So we started with three consultants, uh, a primary teacher, a parent, and a researcher. Um, Katie Jamison, Lori McIntosh, and Dr. Leighton Schneller. And we just started to kind of say like, do you wanna be a part of a pilot? We'll, we'll work together to build some presentations and see if there's an appetite for that. And there was. And so now we're up to nine consultants in our little team. Wow. Tim Villegas: That's amazing. All that Shelley Moore: include self-advocates and families and just, it's just this beautiful, so we're, we're, our goal is that we come together once a year for a creator for treat and uh, and so then basically, um, we're available for, I. Presentations and consultations and coaching. And, um, Katie Jameson is, is a parent and she just spoke to every teacher candidate out of Simon Fraser University yesterday. And so, like, just like opportunities to hear from different voices in, uh, knowing that it's vetted under this umbrella of inclusion is the next best thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, yes, this is the, there's no compromise here. Like there's no reason why we're not moving forward. And so just having that. Um, that confidence is, is really drawing people to be like, especially times like this where we feel like, where are we gonna go? Uh, we're just getting some incredible, incredible, um, feedback from people just being like, you're bringing some light in a, in a really dark time. And, and that is just making my heart glow. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And. Go anywhere. I'm assuming not only Canada, but Yeah, no, I Shelley Moore: can go, we, we go, we go anywhere. Yeah, we go anywhere. Tim Villegas: Okay, great. Yeah, Shelley Moore: and it's, uh, and it's our, our website is being built right now, but I can definitely send you information about what that means and what that looks like if you wanna know more. But it's, uh, my big goal was to not make it like a, a talent bureau. Like I don't want it to be a speaker agency, like it really is. A collective of, of diverse voices. Um, the metaphor of the outside pin is, you know, you stand on the outside looking in and sometimes you're ridiculed for that, but actually your perspective, um, is a contribution. And so really making sure that we're, you know. Gathering the edges, you know? 'cause people are doing this work on the edges, right? Right. They're not part of the, the status quo in mainstream sometimes. And so just really highlighting, highlighting those perspectives, it's, it's becoming a little passion project that I'm just loving it. Tim Villegas: That's great. That's great. Yeah. And yeah, so, so excited for you. Shelley Moore: Thank you. Um, Tim Villegas: yeah. Yeah. And, and as MCIE. We are always on board for a collaboration, so, oh, putting that out there. Well then Shelley Moore: maybe you'll be getting a little email from my team, my friend. Just stay tuned. Yes. Tim Villegas: Yeah. We'll, we'll, um, so there's that. And let's talk about, uh, let's talk about, you know, media resources because you, you, uh. Uh, five more minutes, uh, videos. Mm-hmm. Or you just put one out a few weeks ago. I did. Uh, but people aren't supports, which was fantastic. Uh, well, it Shelley Moore: caused a stir, Tim. Tim Villegas: It caused a stir. Oh, tell me about that. Stir Shelley Shelley Moore: for two. I got two stirs. Tim Villegas: Okay, go ahead. I Shelley Moore: got two stirs. The first stir was, oh, okay. So you know when someone is stressed. Okay. Um, Tim Villegas: yes. Shelley Moore: And they're navigating an education system that's not well resourced. Mm-hmm. And then they see a video that says people aren't supports. They kind of hear, oh, Shelley's saying we don't need people anymore. And I was like, Nope, nope. That, that's not what I meant at all. I just meant let's articulate why we need people. 'cause it'll help our advocacy efforts So that. Went real self real fast. Tim Villegas: Oh no. Oh no. So I have learned Shelley Moore: to just. Let the emotions wash over me. Wash over Tim Villegas: you. Shelley Moore: Someone thought I was working like as a government spy, like, I mean, it went deep, Tim, that I was trying to dismantle public. Wow. Tim Villegas: I'm so glad I asked, actually. No, I know because this is good. We're staring things up. And Shelley Moore: so like in hindsight, if I were to change something, 'cause I can be reflective. Sure. 'cause it wasn't just one person. Um, maybe I would've changed the title to be less triggering. To be like, how are people support or are people support so that people are support. But you know, part of part of my mission with five more minute videos is that they're provoking. Do you know what I mean? Uhhuh, like it's conversation. Tim Villegas: The Point. Shelley Moore: And I earned a Facebook badge the other day for. Stirring conversation on Facebook. So I mean, like, I would, like, Tim Villegas: literally you have a passion that stirring up conversation. It's Shelley Moore: like you're a conversation starter. Tim Villegas: Ah. Shelley Moore: So I'm like, okay, okay. Conversation starter. Tim Villegas: Uh, Shelley Moore: so, Tim Villegas: uh, okay. Because as you know, Shelley Moore: you know, you know the research that you know one-to-one. Yes. Actually inhibit. The goals of inclusion, but that's a hard thing to say. When people are. Struggling to find resources to support inclusion. And so, I mean, I understand the tension. It's a very valid concern, but Tim Villegas: Absolutely, absolutely, yes. It wasn't Shelley Moore: the aim of the video Tim Villegas: at all. Interesting. Okay. Okay. Was there another, this there another thing? Yeah. So this one I Shelley Moore: think was actually really valid. Like this caused me some, some reflection, and I'm curious to hear what you think. Okay. You ready? Tim Villegas: Yeah, I'm ready. Shelley Moore: So one of the. In the video, the one of the rationalizing Tim Villegas: Sure Shelley Moore: points was that, um, we wanna use our adults in ways that facilitate increase in independence. Our students. Okay. Yeah. And so if we're not articulating what people are doing, whether it's support staff or adult, or just teachers, anyone, any adults, if we're not articulating what they're doing, what often ends up happening is it becomes due for. Not do with, um, and it becomes a, let's finish the task, let's, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It becomes more as simulative process as opposed to a facilitated process. And so the video said we want to increase self-determination in our students, that they feel agency and independence over time. Yes. And the pushback was around the word independence, and it was mainly from the medical community that said. My child will never be independent. And so then my response was, well, what's your definition of independence? Because if you're looking at independence through a standardized lens, well then yeah, there's some people who will never be independent. But then on my podcast, when I talked to Dr. Lenel, he, his question was, well, independent in what? You know what I mean? Right. And in saying that is, okay, here's the question. So is saying that independence is the goal, ableist. Or is think independence is the goal? High expectations? Tim Villegas: I would say that it really does depend on your definition of independence. Shelley Moore: Absolutely. Absolutely. Tim Villegas: Um, but I could de I mean, I could see, I could see that interpretation. Shelley Moore: Right, me too. Tim Villegas: Me too. And there's something about, um. Gosh, I really learned this from, uh, Janice FCA Feldman. Are you familiar? Mm-hmm. Um, and she talks about interdependence and yes, her son Micah. And, uh, that independence, it could be misconstrued as like, you have to do everything by yourself. Shelley Moore: Exactly. Tim Villegas: Which is not the no, which is not how I would frame independence. Um. And I do like inter interdependence better, just in general, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but some, but sometimes like that word confuses people too, so. Mm-hmm. Um, but, uh, it's at least as a, as a viewer of the video, and we'll make sure to link that in the show notes so everyone can see that. Um, I think I, I knew where you were coming from, but I definitely hear, I definitely hear the, the feedback and I think that's valid. Shelley Moore: I think, I think it's totally valid. And, um, 'cause the other point that was brought up around it was sometimes independence is used as a gatekeeper to inclusion. Tim Villegas: Yes, for sure. And Shelley Moore: you're not independent enough to fill in the blank, right? Yep, yep. And so I was, and so when I, I never, and I never thought of that. And so then I was thinking, well, that's not my definition of independence, right? Like my definition of independence is let's co-construct a goal that's meaningful to the actual person. Right. Um, but then I'm thinking like. You have to calibrate that understanding before actually using that term within the context. Um, or I could see absolutely how it could be misinterpreted and become a gatekeeper and super problematic and contaminated. And so I actually really appreciated that feedback and that one I responded to. Like that one, I didn't let wash over me, you know, because then, and then actually then just recently I saw a post on Instagram that was like. What if you substitute the word agency for independence? So now I'm kind of like throwing that around in my head. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so, and Leighton was saying how well agency is like a, it's a, it's a, it's a feeling like you, like you feel like, yeah. Agency. Whereas independence is like the action. So I mean like we're getting into semantics, but like intentional vocabulary is so key to this work. Tim Villegas: It really is. It really is. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Uh, and I think all of that's really valid and worthwhile to, to think about. Mm-hmm. Isn't that interesting? Um, that is really interesting. Mm-hmm. Um, but also. Uh, for you to, you know, produce these videos, uh, really put yourself out there and make a stand on certain, you know, concepts surrounding inclusion. Um, no one else is doing that, Shelley, so thank you so much. You don't Shelley Moore: think so, Tim Villegas: not the way you do it. ' Shelley Moore: cause you know what? Sometimes I think when I do it too much and I'm gonna get canceled, but. No, Tim Villegas: these are like, I think we all have different, we, we all bring our own strengths and, and gifts to this work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, 'cause um, I think before we really knew each other and I saw, you know, this was way back when and I was like, observing the video, so I'm like, I could never do that. Like, that's just, I can't, and I'm certainly a lot closer to being able to do it now, but that's still not my, mm-hmm. Like that is not my strength. My, I feel like my strength is this, having a conversation, asking questions, um, and then, and then producing it in a way that people can hopefully, um, have a discussion later. Uh, professors, you, professors and teachers use the, use the videos in the, the podcast for like class discussions and we use it. Our partners will use. These discussions to, to share with staff. So I think that that's kind of where my wheelhouse is. Um, and you know, and other people are really good, like at Instagram reels, and I am not. That's okay. Shelley Moore: I cannot figure them out. I can't figure them out. So if my little role here in this collective community that we've created and our creating is to provoke and be sassy and to take a stand, sign me up. I mean, I'm a Leo. Tim Villegas: There you go. Oh, so when's. Shelley Moore: When's your birthday? July 23rd. Tim Villegas: July 23rd. Okay. Okay. We have a a July. The Shelley Moore: very first day. Tim Villegas: The very first day. Okay. Yeah, we have two Leos in, in my I've, because congratulations. July 28th. Yeah. Yeah. And then August 21st. Which I still, I think is still like Leo territory Shelley Moore: right in there. Yeah. Tim Villegas: Yes. Yes. So, um, yeah. Well, Tim, I appreciate Shelley Moore: that because sometimes when you're provoking it makes people angry. So, so, you know. Oh, wow. But to hear is good. Good to hear. Tim Villegas: Been there. Yeah. We, we've definitely published some things that people are not happy. Shelley Moore: They're not happy. And you know what? My lights is very helpful. She'll just be like, put down your phone no more. Let read your response first. Tim Villegas: Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah. It, it was so easy to, uh, be, um, to be so, uh, really be sensitive, like especially first starting out, uh, with. Writing a blog and then like posting on social media. In the early days it was like you just wanted to respond to every single thing and then everything Shelley Moore: react. React, Tim Villegas: yeah. No more. So you just have to, yeah, I've learned remember you are. Okay, so here's a, here's an image that's really helped me. This is so, okay. Okay. Shelley Moore: I can't wait. Tim Villegas: Okay. So. I was doing, uh, I was doing meditation. It sounds so funny because Yeah. Anyways, I love it. I love it. Um, and it, the, the practice I was doing was pr like pretending like you're sitting and like viewing a mountain, right? And the mountain, uh, is still, it does not move. And then you are imagining the mountain, like move closer and closer and closer to you as I have to actually Shelley Moore: do it as Tim Villegas: a bo Okay, so you're closing your eyes. All right. So the mountain is moving closer and closer to you and becomes part of your body. So the mountain is, is the, you're, you're, you're the base of the mountain. And the top of your head is the peak of the mountain. And so you're just so good. Yep. And so you're just taking breaths. So breathe. What's, we're just gonna do it, we're gonna do it right here. Okay. So breathe. Shelley Moore: We're doing it right now. Tim Villegas: Yeah, we're gonna do it right now. Okay. So like, um, just breathe out, uh, in and out of your nose. Okay. We'll all do it together in, in the nose and then out the mouth. One more time in the nose. Out the mouth. Shelley Moore: Well, let's just clarify. We're not volcanoes, right? Tim Villegas: Right. We're not volcanoes. Right. And you're supposed to imagine that this breath coming into your nose as like the cool, like cool coming in and warm coming out, which is like really helpful actually to me. And then you are imagining yourself as the mountain, right? And so the mountain experiences, all these different things, weather. People walking all over it. Uh, maybe, maybe a natural disaster, but the mountain does not move. The mountain is the mountain. Right. And the weather passes. Right. Is that Shelley Moore: I would listen to that every night. Is Tim Villegas: that I am the mountain mind, mind blowing, like I really like, it really has helped me. Shelley Moore: I mean, I am just gonna like get a t-shirt that says I'm the mountain and wear it every time I release a video. Tim Villegas: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. You know what Shelley Moore: I love about that? Is that like when people react, even when I react right, especially when I react, there is no room. Like I'm not changing my mind when I react. Other, no one's minds are shifting when you react 'cause it's so just like. Exploding. Right? And so if I can imagine myself as the mountain with reactions happening all around me, that's not gonna move. That's not gonna move my philosophy. Do you know what I mean? That's not gonna move why I made the video or why, you know, and so, and so the difference between like the reactions and then a really good, meaningful comment, like the one around independence, like, mm-hmm. Shelley Moore: Okay. This is maybe someone climbing the mountain. I can, I can, I can. To that. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. But Shelley Moore: no, I love that. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. Shelley Moore: Oh, oh, that's good. That's good. It's good stuff. Iron Mountain. Tim Villegas: Good stuff. It's uh, alright. All right. So, um, before I let you go, before we get to the mystery question, 'cause I'm really excited about this, uh, okay. The podcast, tell me more. So you have videos that are coming out every so often, uh, and then you are doing a monthly. Is that right? Shelley Moore: Right. Okay. So we have started in January with like a monthly schedule of content, um, that balances being apparent to a toddler and maintaining community. Um, so week one is we have a book club. On Instagram live. And right now we're, we're, we're reading a book, um, called List of Cages. And our theme was, uh, centering Neurodiverse Voices, uh, as a main character. So that was our theme. And there are like 7,000 people in that book club. So you're all welcome to join. Wow. And it's chaos. And my children join and you never know what's gonna happen next. But you know, our slogan is you don't even have to read the book. Show up. We're the most inclusive book club. You don't even have to read it. Um, and then, then the second week is the release of a new five more minute video. And so there's one coming out on February 8th. And then the third week is a podcast with someone on the outside pin team to talk about the video, um, because I know that the video is provoking. And so the podcast just allows, um, our team to kind of talk about it from our diverse perspectives and get a little bit more nuance there. Um, which you is, is hard to find in the five more minute videos. And then the last week of the month is a q and a. So if there is any. Good questions or feedback. Um, we do a, a q and a live, um, on, on Instagram stories and Facebook stories. Okay. So it's, uh, it's an opportunity just to have some interaction and some responsivity and some connection. And, uh, we just went through our first full cycle. There's a newsletter thrown in there, so we're trying to try to after post covid post issues. Listen, that is a lot, Shelley. That Tim Villegas: is a lot. I don't know how you do it. It's a Shelley Moore: lot. I know, but I, I have some great. Great Tim Villegas: team members who are helping me. Okay. Good. Good. That's very good. Yes, yes, yes. Awesome. Um, well, we're gonna put all that information in the show notes and make sure everyone can figure out how they can either join the book club, watch the videos, listen to the podcast, all of that stuff. Thanks. All that stuff. Uh, before I let you go, uh, I want to do a mystery question. We did a mystery question last time. Right. I feel like I'm sure we did because it's fun. Like we did. So fun. It's, yeah, exactly. So my, I have a stack of cards and it used to be, it used to be like, it used to be like this big, like four or five inches big and now it's like just a few left. That's amazing. And so, um, I'm ready. I don't know what the question is and we're gonna both answer it. Here we go. The mystery question is, what are most people afraid of that doesn't scare you? Um, what are most people? That's put it to the camera. Let's see if I can, it'll, there we go. What are, what are Shelley Moore: most people afraid of that doesn't scare you? Tim Villegas: Most people are afraid of this thing, but it does not scare you. Shelley Moore: What, can I just say Disability? Tim Villegas: That's good. Yeah, that's good. Shelley Moore: Um. Um, something that, you know what, and this, my, my first reaction was the word change, but that's not true. Like there are elements for sure, that change does scare me, but I think specifically in educational context, like for me, I think a lot of people fear change, but I'm at this point right now in education that if we don't change. It's not gonna work for anybody. It's already not working for so many kids. Right. And so I, I, I think change is, is, especially as kids get older, is something that a lot of people fear. And so they hold onto what they know. But I'm like, let's blow it up. Tim Villegas: Let's go, let's go, let's go. Nice. Let blow you. Um, I, so the first thing that came to my mind was, uh, public, public speaking, so, Shelley Moore: oh, okay. Tim Villegas: Um. You know, like it's always been not a thing. Like I really enjoy presentations. Even when I was a kid, I enjoyed like doing a presentation, and then it just got, I got more and more comfortable with it. And then I used to, I don't know if we talked about this, but I used to be in like rock bands in the, in high school and in college, and part of that performance aspect, it's like, mm-hmm. You just get used to being on stage and like having a microphone. And so I think that's probably why I enjoy podcasting 'cause it's like very similar to that. Um, and I forget who I was talking to about this, but like I would rather hold a microphone than be like just talking in front of a audience. I, I Shelley Moore: totally agree. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Like having a microphone, it's like almost having a mask, right. That it's just something Well, it's like to Shelley Moore: drop. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I still, you never know what Shelley Moore: to do with my hands. Tim Villegas: Right. You know, like, what do I do? Yeah. Um, but the, but I enjoy, I enjoy public speaking, so I think a lot of people don't. Shelley Moore: That's a good one. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Shelley Moore: Yeah. You know what, it's, it's, so, do you want me to end off with a funny story? Tim Villegas: Absolutely. Go ahead. Shelley Moore: Okay. So one question that I often get is connected to, that's connected to Universal Design for Learning is kind of like if you want kids to show their learning in a different way, a really easy way to do that is to connect with the different literacy languages, right? So you have written language, oral language, visual language. Now, historically, if it wasn't written, those were adaptations. But in UDL, those are just different pathways that have equal value. Okay, sure. Shelley Moore: And so I for example, am not a strong writer, but I can talk all day and I love visuals. Right. Um, but oftentimes researchers, their strength is writing. Tim Villegas: Mm-hmm. Right? Shelley Moore: Mm-hmm. And so one of my favorite stories about this is when I was, when I was. In my PhD, um, I went to a ERA in New York City, which is like the biggest educational research conference. And to get in, you get to choose if you wanna share your research in a poster as a presentation or as a paper, the three literacy languages. So I, so I'll say it to Paris, I'm like, even N-Y-U-A-E-R-A, like top conferences. You need to have, you need to be strong in all three of these languages, right? Now I always pick poster 'cause I can talk all day. But no one likes the posters. They all wanna do the paper 'cause that's their strength. Right? But there's not enough. So then they get their second choice. So I'm in my poster session 'cause I always get first choice and the guy beside me is so mad and I'm like, oh, welcome to the poster session. You're my neighbor. He's like, he's grunting. I'm like, where's your poster? He's like, I'll show you my poster. He staples his paper to the wall. Tim Villegas: Oh no. And I. Shelley Moore: Aren't you gonna stay and talk? He's like, people can read it and he goes and gets a coffee and I'm like, this is it. This is it. See, we have to build all of our literacy muscles, speaking, writing, and visually expressing ourselves. Those are not up to adaptations. Oh my Tim Villegas: gosh. Those are, oh my gosh, Shelley Moore: those are adapt. Adaptability. He was so mad. He was so mad. And I was just like, that's not a poster. Tim Villegas: Um. That's not a poster. Uh, it's not. Okay. So I have, so yeah, I have some thoughts about that. Yeah. Um, and it's making me rethink poster presentations because Oh, I Shelley Moore: love 'em. Tim Villegas: Yeah. And I'm in, I'm interested, but it makes sense, like as you're thinking about that, 'cause there's certainly times where it's like. Someone will have been accepted for a poster instead of something else and be like, no. Like it almost feels like it's the lesser. Shelley Moore: Yeah. Tim Villegas: Right. Oh, it is Shelley Moore: not, it is not my friend. Look at this poster. Right? But you are turning, Tim Villegas: you're like turning it around. Wait, are you, are you trying to show me a poster? Shelley Moore: Well, yeah, but my cords are, it's like, Tim Villegas: it's okay. Oh yeah. Okay. I can, I can kind of see it, I can kind of see the edge of like my PhD Shelley Moore: poster right there. I look at it. It is, it's all, you can only see the word, but I swear there's visuals on it. Okay. Tim Villegas: No, people Shelley Moore: see it as a lesser than, and I'm like, oh no. To be able to synthesize your writing, to create visuals is a very important skill. Tim Villegas: That is really interesting. Mm-hmm. All right. So we do have a lot of educators and researchers that listen to this podcast. So I want you to take Heart Educators. Shelley Moore: Oh, poster. Take heart. Tim Villegas: Um, when you got accepted for that poster presentation instead of the other thing, Shelley Moore: I think it's harder because you have to synthesize in a non-linear way. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Shelley Moore: Great. But also like to teach our students how to visually communicate is such an important skill. Tim Villegas: Yeah. All right. On that note, Shelley Moore: I love us. We're so fun. Dr. Tim Villegas: Shelley Moore, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast. Shelley Moore: Anytime my friend. Tim Villegas: That's the final frame of this episode of Think Inclusive.Let's roll into the credits. Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I handle the writing, editing, designing, mixing, and mastering. This podcast is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Our original theme music is by Miles Kredich, with additional music by melod.ie. A big shout out to our sponsor, IXL check them out at ixl.com/inclusive. We truly appreciate each and every one of you who tunes in. We'd love to hear how you are using these episodes. Are they part of your teaching toolkit? Are you sharing them with school administrators? Have you recommended a specific episode to anyone? Drop me a line at tvillegas@mcie.org. And let me know. And hey, if you're still around with us this far into the episode, it probably means that you love, think Inclusive, and the work that MCIE is doing. So can I ask a small favor? Help us keep the momentum going by donating at our website mcie.org. Go to the top of the site, there's a donate button there, and chip in $5, $10, $20, it would mean the world to us and the children in the schools and districts we partner with. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember folks, inclusion always works.