Tim Solo for FB
===

The vast majority of school districts serve students with complex support needs in special education classrooms. And by complex support needs, I mean, learners on the autism spectrum, those with intellectual disabilities, learners who have emotional and behavioral challenges, and even those with multiple disabilities and by special education classrooms, I mean, segregated classrooms, classrooms that are designed specifically for.

Learners with complex support needs, uh, that typically don't spend much time, if any, with their typically developing peers in schools. These classrooms often hold multiple grade levels of students. Usually, uh, clustered with the same kind of disability. So I'm talking about autism classrooms, classrooms for students with mild, moderate, or severe intellectual disabilities, you name it.

But why do we educate learners in this way? And how should we really think about segregated classrooms? Hey friends, I'm Tim Villegas. You are listening to, or watching Think Inclusive from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Our podcast that explores inclusive practices in schools and communities through conversations with those doing the work of inclusion in the real world.

Our work begins with a conversation, and that is what we hope this podcast will provide for you, a way to start a conversation with your friends, family, or colleagues about why inclusive education is vital. For all learners. This is the first episode of the new season of Think Inclusive. And this time around, it's just going to be you and me.

I want to talk to you about segregated classrooms and what my experience was like teaching in them, what lessons I learned about why they exist and even how we can move beyond segregated classrooms

before we take a quick break. I wanted to share with you about. Our new sponsor for season 12 I X L

I X L is a personalized online teaching and learning solution that helps educators improve achievement, empower teachers, track progress, and more. This one platform for K to 12 helps teachers accomplish what normally would require dozens and dozens of other tools.

IXL is used in 95 of the top 100 school districts and Over 1 million teachers use IXL in their classrooms every day for one reason, they really love it.

We're so excited to have IXL be a sponsor for this season of Think Inclusive. Learn more at ixl. com slash inclusive.

Okay. So because I like a good episode structure, we're going to tackle this topic about segregated classrooms in three parts or acts as Ira Glass likes to say in this American life. So after a short break, act one, what's so special about a special ed classroom.

We'll be right back.


Welcome back to think inclusive. Okay, here we go. Act one. 

What's so special about a special education classroom. So first of all, I'm going to tell you the reasons that I typically hear about why a. Student should be in a segregated classroom, special education, self contained. However you want to say it.

Number one, uh, safety. So why would a student, uh, be in a segregated classroom for safety or why are special education classrooms more safe? Well, the argument is that. you have, uh, more people in the classroom. Maybe you have a special education teacher. Maybe you have, uh, one or two, a pair of professionals.

Maybe you have an additional support person, like a healthcare provider, uh, depending on the makeup of the classroom and the classroom has specialized equipment, uh, maybe safety equipment. Maybe people are specifically trained to Uh, support, uh, children with, uh, challenging behavior, um, maybe it is the safety of the students in the regular classroom.

Um, that's what I've also heard too. It's just not safe for certain students to be in, uh, with, uh, the, the general education classroom. So that's number one safety. Number two is specialized support. So when I was a, uh, uh, district support specialist, um. In one of my last jobs in the public schools, I served classrooms that.

That had students with autism, um, or, uh, were on the autism spectrum, uh, students with intellectual disabilities, and then also students who, uh, needed support with, uh, emotional and, uh, their, uh, their emotions and, uh, Just some challenging behavior and the argument went that you have certain teachers who are specially trained or quote unquote experts in working with students, um, who are artistic and then you also have students who.

required adaptations or modifications to their lessons. So typically those were students who, um, were, or you had intellectual disabilities and then, um, also teachers who have like specialized training in delivering behavioral support. So that is a big reason why you have some districts that are, um, that, that cluster support services.

So you have like make maybe one school, an elementary school that has a class for autistic students, one class for students who have intellectual disabilities, and one class that has, uh, students who are quote unquote labeled, um, that need emotional and behavioral, um, support. So that's number two. And number three is individualized support.

So the argument here goes that there are general education classrooms that are just too big. There's, you know, 30, 40 students in one classroom, um, and, uh, particular student who has complex support needs the, well, they just wouldn't get the attention that they deserve in that class. And so they have to be in a.

Smaller group with individualized support or that the only way we can include this particular student is that they need a one on one, um, and then they will be able to get that individualized one on one attention. And sometimes that is with the teacher, but a lot of times that's with a paraprofessional.

Now, what does that really look like in reality? So special education classrooms, um. typically have many students with a wide variety of complex support needs. Uh, for instance, when I was a self contained segregated special education, uh, teacher in a classroom, um, at one point I taught a class that was kindergarten through fifth grade.

So K one, two, three, four, five, that's six grade levels. Uh, of students up to, you know, um, I would have anywhere from six to seven to eight students. Um, and you think about the adults in the room, there'd be myself, um, and maybe two to three other adults in the classroom. At one point I did have a nurse that was in the classroom and attended to a lot of, uh, different medical and healthcare needs.

Um, so for special education classrooms that have all of these students, um, there's a lot going on. So it's not just the teaching, right? It's not just the lessons, but, uh, typically, especially for students who have, um, multiple disabilities and also maybe some, uh, healthcare issues, uh, that we're working through.

There's a lot of stopping and starting and pausing. And, um, Having to support learners throughout the day, and it causes a lot of weight and downtime, and I'll just give you an example. You know, again, this is my experience, but I think it is. You know, if you talk to other special education teachers that, that, um, you know, supported students in this particular way, in this kind of segregated setting, um, you're going to find a lot of the same, a lot of the same ideas and stories.

So I remember going into my job, into this K five setting and, uh, being completely new to this particular, uh, population of student. And I remember the paraprofessionals were kind of training me on, you know, what the teacher had done before, And I walked in and, uh, they were so proud of, of what, uh, they had built. Basically it was a table that had a number of different lights and music options. Um, actually it was like a, it was an old cassette player, uh, and then a fan. And, uh, just different light up things that made noise and stuff like that.

And it was attached to a switch. And so what I mean by a switch is it really was just a, something that you plugged in At the end of the line of all these different, uh, um, options for lights and music and sound, and you would hit a button and press it down and it'd be like, click, and then all of those things would turn on.

And the idea is that that would provide stimulation for the student or the learner that was sitting there. And, um. It seems, uh, it seems kind of, uh, a little bit ridiculous now, but at the time it was like, oh, well, you know, this is these are where the students are at and, you know, this is kind of the level that they require just kind of stimulation.

Um, not. You know what kinds of standards we are delivering? Um, what? How can we weave this into the lesson plan? It was like about life skills. You know, if we can teach a student to hit a switch, then we can teach them to hit this switch to, uh, Get other things to operate other things. Um, but this was a, a really like novel idea that was, it was presented to me.

And at the time I was like, Oh, great. You know, this is perfect. You know, we can, um, help these students over here. And then during stations, we can have a particular student sit in front of the lights and music, uh, you know, station area, uh, and just be entertained, uh, while we are, uh, taking care of everyone else.

So why am I saying that? Well, I guess the point is, is that when you have so many different students at varying, um, you know, uh, support needs very various levels of support needs, um, you have to split up your day like that. Um, and oftentimes, um. There were students who were basically doing nothing, uh, and being a quote unquote stimulated, uh, while we were working with other students and that's, you know, really a problem when you're talking about how you're running a classroom and how you are, you know, delivering instruction, you know, what's the special, what's the, you know, what's specially designed about that other than the actual like mechanics of it, it's not actually teaching, uh, Anything necessarily.

I mean, I guess you could say that they were, you know, learning how to use a switch, but there's, there's other more functional ways of, of doing that. Um, and back to the one on one there's really nothing special about a one on one. And what I mean by that is that it's not an example of especially designed instruction, um, yet it is.

It is how many schools and districts solve the problem of families wanting inclusive education for their Children, uh, because the infrastructure just isn't available. It's the same idea with small group classrooms. You know, learners will have, you know, more attention. It's smaller group. Yet. There's really nothing special about You know, everyone, um, benefits from a one on one interaction with the teacher.

Everyone would benefit from having, uh, that kind of relationship, but what is the specially designed instruction? What's the special education that a one on one, uh, actually provides. In my opinion, what that one on one provides for that particular classroom is, well, the teacher now doesn't have to, you know, worry about that student as much because, well, we have an adult that is taking care of them and, um, maybe helping assist teach them, but that isn't anything necessarily specially designed.

And when we talk about specially designed, we're really talking about collaboration between special education and general education teachers working together, collaborating, um, not only on lessons, but how we're delivering support, delivering support across a grade level or a school, uh, that is specially designed, uh, looking at a lesson and saying this particular student needs a graphic organizer.

This particular student needs to make sure to have, you know, reminders to. Uh, pay attention in class because, you know, maybe they have, you know, some attention issues. And so we are working through that. Uh, maybe this particular student needs a peer support. And so we're going to facilitate that. So those are all things that are specially designed for a classroom for a lesson.

Uh, the big caveat to this, you know, one on one paraprofessional idea, uh, and, and how they can be very useful is facilitating. Uh, independence with academics and also behavior support if they are directed by a special education teacher with different strategies and, um, if the focus is actually helping on the learner to, um, be independent and also interdependent.

And what I mean by that is to help the learner. ask for assistance, whether that is from the paraprofessional, uh, whether that is, uh, uh, from, uh, their peers or from, uh, the educators, the teachers in the class, either the general or the special education teachers. Um, So I've been talking for a lot and we're going to take another break to get to act two.

Uh, but let me just sum up what I'm saying about why special education classrooms aren't really that special because what ends up happening at the idea is you have a small group, you have highly trained staff, and then you have, um, these, you know, individualized, uh, supports, um, more attention. What ends up happening is you have so many support needs in that classroom that your attention as a teacher is divided between a lot of different students.

And so the argument that happens when you're in a general ed class, which is this student is taking up too much of my time. Um, it's not fair to the other students, so they need to go somewhere else. Well, that's somewhere else is a bunch of students that all need various levels of support, and now you're putting all the students that someone else said, well, they need to be somewhere else.

Now they're all in. One, one area. And do you think that that class is any easier to teach or to support than if you were to have that one student in the general education class? Let me tell you, it's, it's practically impossible to support all of these students. Uh, because you know, at one point somebody was like, Oh no, no, we can't have these students in, you know, the general ed class because what about the other kids?

Um, But here's the thing is when you have all of those students in one class, what about those kids, right? What about the kids that are in that classroom? Um, if they're all together, it seems like, well, it's fine. They're in another class. Nobody sees them. Uh, the only people that are, they're all together.

attending to them are the special education teachers and the paraprofessionals. Um, and nobody gets to, nobody gets to interact with that. Um, and as long as they're over there in, in that wing or in that special class, well, they're getting taken care of. The problem is, And like I said before, um, it's nearly impossible to do that, uh, over sixth grade levels.

Even if all the students had very, very mild, uh, or low support needs, it still would be a challenge. But that's not the kind of situation that many Um, classrooms and districts are in when I was visiting a lot of classrooms, um, these disabilities, specific classrooms, autism, ID, intellectual disability, emotional and behavior support.

A lot of times they would say, you know what, I've got a great class, but if this one student could be in another special, special, special or class. So they could get the support they need and require. Then my class would be perfect, but I just want you to think about that for a minute, right? If that's the kind of situation we're putting our special education teachers in where they have a special class of five, six, seven, maybe 10, maybe 12 students.

Um, and it's just the two students. Like if only these two students were somewhere else, right? What about the other? What about those students? Right. What about those kids? How are we supporting them? Um, so real quick before I let you go and we're going to have another break and I'll just tease this for our act to what if there was a way that we could have students with complex support needs be spread out across a grade level.

Across a school across a district so that they weren't clumped together. And what would that look like? And why would that be better than the current system we are in right now? All right. We'll be right back after a short break with act two.


And we are back. Um, act two. There's got to be a better way. If you're watching on YouTube, you may notice that I'm wearing something different. I've got my Atlanta Falcons hat on. Um, I've got a red background, um, just, uh, gearing up for the football season. And, uh, just to, you know, give you a behind the scenes look, sometimes I record episodes on multiple days, um, in order to, you know, make it a little bit easier.

So that's, that's what's happening today. Um, so let's talk about why we even educate learners. In a segregated classrooms in the first place. Well, here is a very quick explanation. Uh, learners with disabilities before in 1975 did not have, uh, the, any legal protections to attend school. So some schools and districts did, uh, educate learners with disabilities, but that was pretty rare.

And, uh, and so what we know is that when the law that is now known as IDEA was passed Students from segregated schools and institutions started going to public schools, uh, and that was a really, really good thing. And we're really happy that that that that had happened. And, uh, things are much, much better now, uh, but it's been nearly a year.

50 years, um, since the law was passed. And we know that based on research and good instructional practices, that when learners with complex support needs are included in and supported in inclusive classrooms in schools, their outcomes are much better than if they were segregated into disability specific classrooms.

Well, what does that even look like, Tim? Well, for starters, uh, school leaders. Are really at the forefront of what makes a school, a school. If you're an educator, if you're a teacher and you've ever worked in a school, uh, think about, think about when a principal that you've had, think about how the principal sets the tone and the, uh, and the culture of that school.

Um, think about what. That person brings to how everyone works together and how that person sets a vision. Uh, now that may be influenced by the district, uh, but that school leader is probably the most important, uh, piece of the leadership for that, for that building. And so school principals and particularly district leadership.

Is really, uh, what, uh, makes a movement toward inclusive practices possible. Uh, what we've seen as MCIE around the country, uh, in Maryland and in our partner with our partners in other States is, uh, that you can have a very inclusive school within a school district, but the change, uh, is typically driven by that principle.

Um, just like we talked about school culture. Um, The, the tone and, uh, how people get along with each other. Uh, not that, so not necessarily the district, but when the change is driven by the school district and the leadership team at the, uh, at the district level, then they are more likely to have sustainable change because that is the vision of the district it's inclusive.

So what is an inclusive vision? And so we have a few, you know, talking points when we talk about inclusive vision, when we are presenting about, uh, inclusive, uh, education. And hold on a second. Let me take a sip of my coffee here.

Uh, we're going to go over them. Okay. So number one, each and every child who lives in that, uh, school's neighborhood. Belongs in that school. Um, some districts don't have what you would call a neighborhood schools, but basically the idea is that the vast majority of schools are that way. So if you live in the neighborhood of that school, you belong in that school next.

All children are general education students. Also, some receive services. So there is special education, uh, services, but there are not special education students. There are only general education students who. Some of who whom happen to receive services. When we call students special education students, or when we call students SPED students or special ed students,

Even if it's not on purpose or intentional, you are othering those students. Uh, I was just so quick story. Um, my, you know, my kids go to our local, uh, public school district, the one I used to work in and I saw a social media post this morning, um, that gives the block schedule, uh, for the high school. And so there's four blocks.

And then the third block tells you what. You know, when everyone goes to lunch and so you have, um, the social studies classes, you have the math classes that go to a particular lunch. And then, and then I saw English and sped, which is wild to me. Uh, but it's, it signals, right? It signals that sped, right?

Those students. Um, are separate and they, maybe they have, maybe it's a segregated classroom. I don't know exactly what the makeup of that particular school is, but, um, it just struck me because, uh, I wasn't expecting it and I saw it and I was like, Hmm, interesting. So I just wonder, you know, I wonder what that mess, what kind of message that sends, right?

Um, That we are separating students like that. Even when we are talking about lunchtimes in the, uh, in the school day. Okay. Anyways, uh, next there are no inclusion classrooms. Students are not separated by label 

the vast majority of school districts have inclusion classrooms. So you have a grade level, let's say it's elementary school, third grade, and one particular classroom is the inclusion classroom. You have a general ed and a special education teacher in that classroom.

And they are probably co teaching. Uh, maybe they have a paraprofessional. Uh, but. Probably around half the students have an IEP or are, are, uh, receiving special education services. And that just isn't, um, that just isn't inclusive number one. And then if that is an inclusive classroom, what is, what are all the other classrooms, but you probably heard me say that before.

If, if not, then, um, just think about that for a second. Um, Services. Here's another one. Services are delivered through collaboration of general education and special education teachers. Um, one of the things that, uh, inclusive schools do is really change the expectations of the roles. Between general and special education teachers.

Um, a lot of times general education teachers just, you know, they, they believe that they can, they're only supposed to be teaching, uh, learners. Uh, who are in general education classrooms. And a lot of times it's because they've been told, um, by somebody in leadership, by a supervisor that, um, Well, like, you know, you can't, um, you're not able to deliver services to this particular student.

That's what the special education teacher is for, which isn't true. And I'll, I'll talk about that in a, um, in a second, but special education teachers, um, Are really great at specially designed instruction, right? And they're also really great at modifications, accommodations and, um, and adaptations. And so while you have someone that it specializes in that you typically general education teachers specialize in content, uh, and standards, although both Kinds of teachers can, um, be, you know, have expertise in all of these things.

But the idea is, is that you are not, um, siloing these roles and saying, okay, general ed teachers over here and special education teachers over here, but you're actually collaborating, um, as a team to deliver educational services to all learners. Um, also part of that vision is planning for students who need more.

And if we think about everyone's a general education student, some students receive additional services, um, for the students who need more. How are we going to plan? Well, MCIE has a number of tools, uh, with learner planning that are in our resources, but anytime that you can use a tool to plan for a learner, uh, to, uh, foster more, uh, Belonging engage, uh, membership and, uh, friendships in that class and then also to facilitate participation and engagement, uh, in that class and then also to.

Figure out, you know, what are we actually learning? Where are the standards in this particular lesson? Um, I'm reminded of because I worked so long in segregated classrooms and also supported learners in those settings that a lot of times. You have a particular classroom, especially, uh, well, let's just talk about middle school and high school for now, uh, six, seven, eight, where you have a canned curriculum that is created by a third party.

Um, I'm not going to call anybody out, but third party organization, uh, that is a theme based and teaches life skills that are, uh, supposed to be. Embedded. Uh, with standards are aligned to content standards and what ends up happening is, um, the, the curriculum is so, I don't know, it just skims the surface that, you know, You're not really, you're not really teaching anything with rigor.

Um, and then the other thing is in those, uh, segregated special education classrooms, you have multiple grade levels, which I talked about before I taught in a K through five class, that's six grade levels. Um, and, uh, a middle school class is six to eight, and then also high school class is nine to 12. So think about, uh, it's just impossible for a teacher to, um, Cover all of those standards.

And then, uh, finally interventions are provided for all learners who need them. Um, When you think about multi tiered systems of support, um, it's not about, you know, tier one kids, tier one, tier two kids, tier three kids. Uh, those are all just level of intensity, uh, of, of services.

So, uh, tier one, uh, is really talking about universal core instruction. Uh, tier two is about providing a little bit more intervention. Um, For those who need it and that, that tier, that last tier is really about the most intense intervention, whether that is, um, social, emotional, uh, uh, behavioral, uh, or academic, it's not about those kids, uh, because any learner can receive, uh, any part of that system, uh, at any point when they are a learner.

Okay, this is all nice, Tim, but how does it actually actually work? Well, I told you before about leadership. Um, it really starts with leadership. So when you have district leadership that is setting an inclusive vision, it is much easier to change the system. Um, than it is when you have. Just a small group of educators that are trying to make change in a school or even one.

I felt like I was, you know, one of a few people trying to make change in my particular school. Um, and then, uh, the, uh, I would run up against, uh, some barriers with, uh, district leadership. So when you have district leadership, uh, that's on the same page, then it is easier. Um, I have heard stories of some groups of educators really trying to make change in particular schools and being successful.

Uh, one example is Seaholm High School in Bellingham, Washington. Sonia Cole, who's the principal now, uh, was part of a cohort of educators that really moved inclusive practices forward for that particular school. And now she is the principal. So I think that that is, and, and, and. And runs probably the most inclusive high school that I've ever experienced or been a, uh, been a witness to.

So, uh, kudos to everyone, uh, at Seaholm high school. Um, but just as a reminder, wherever you are, you can be a leader. So you can be a leader in whatever capacity that you're in.

And so like, as I was talking about collaboration between general and special education teachers, those roles, uh, are going to be a little bit different than traditional roles. All teachers teach all learners.

And while special education teachers are experts in specially designed instruction, Um, teachers or even paraprofessionals can deliver SDI, uh, which can make things more flexible.

And so when you stop saying, sorry, you can't do this or that, and it's an all hands on deck approach, you can get more done and, uh, more efficiently

also what makes a big difference in inclusive schools is the scheduling. So when I talked before about the, um, inclusion classroom, those particular students. for joining us. Would be spread out across a grade level. And, uh, ideally scheduled in natural proportions. So what that means very quickly is. If you have a school population and about 10 percent of that school has an identified disability and IEP, um, or special education services, then no one classroom would have more than ideally more than 10 percent of that class would have identified needs like that.

And the reason is, is because when you spread out, uh, students across the. Grade level, then you can more efficiently, uh, support those learners, uh, with, uh, uh, special education teacher. Now, I am going to have a, an episode in a few weeks with one of our, with my colleague, Brittany Salmons, um, who does a lot of training on scheduling for our partners.

And we have a fascinating discussion. I really hope that you tune in for that one. Uh, so I'm not going to get too much into the weeds here, but. The idea is, is that when you're able to schedule, uh, learners, natural proportions, uh, it takes the, uh, pressure off of, uh, certain educators to, uh, only work with, um, A particular kind of student.

Um, so it goes back to that philosophy and vision of all teachers teach all kids.

And you also don't get like an over representation of learners in one particular classroom.

Another thing to consider and what I do hear a lot as a reason to segregate students is like, well, what about students who have, you know, significant or a complex, uh, medical support needs? Or what about students who are a danger to themselves or others because of their behavior? Um. If a student really requires something significantly different.

For their support, then a school can and should plan for that student. And if that means time spent outside of a general education classroom to receive, um, some sort of service, um, Then the school team can figure that out and it can be very creative. Uh, the point here is that all students start in general education first.

That is the, that is how it's supposed to be. Uh, and when you go to an IEP meeting, but unfortunately what ends up happening is districts will create programs and classrooms that are designed Particular students or a profile of students. So you have autism classrooms, ID, intellectual disability, classrooms, behavior classrooms.

And so when you have classrooms, you're going to put students in into them. Um, especially when, uh, general education teachers and special education teachers do not feel equipped, uh, to support learners in a general education environment. So. It's certainly plausible for an inclusive school to provide, uh, support for, uh, this, uh, a particular kind of learner, uh, that has significant behavior, uh, challenges or a complex medical support needs.

But that does not mean that we are going to send them to a special education classroom for, um, ever. Which is what often happens.

I do want to reiterate though that it doesn't mean that you stop trying to include the learner. What ends up happening is a student will be removed from the general education setting and then never come back. So how are we going to ensure that we are always re evaluating and re evaluating,and how are we going to make sure that the student doesn't have to prove that they belong in general education? I've seen that a lot where a student would be removed and it's like, okay, well, their behavior hasn't improved or they have to reach a certain threshold. And then they're quote unquote ready.

To go back to general education. I think a better way to think about that is that we're constantly looking at the general education environment and trying different things and then having the student come in and where they belong back where they belong and see, uh, if, if their needs were, were supported or not.

So there's a lot there. Uh, and. You know, if you have specific questions about a particular learner, we'd be happy to talk about that. Um, but that's the general idea. Um, we had a. Summer Institute at the beginning of August. Uh, and one of our keynotes is Jordan Zimmerman. And, um, I was having a conversation with her and I told her about a learner that I had in one of my segregated classrooms.

Uh, this particular, um, this particular girl was a kindergartner, used a wheelchair. Um, she is a non non speaking individual.

And it was early on in the year. We were going to, um, like our specials activities like, um, music and art. And we were going to the PE gym, um, uh, one day and we all went into the gym because, uh, I had a really good relationship with our, uh, PE teacher. And so our class, uh, was included with a general education segment of PE.

And the, the, the girl got into the room and just started, um, crying and yelling and, and not having a great time. And you could tell that it looked to us like she wanted to leave. And so my pair of professionals, uh, went and looked at me and was like, Hey, Um, what do you want us to do? Because it looks like she's not having a great time.

And I said, well, yeah, we need to, we need to take her out because right now, um, it looks like her behavior is communicating to me that she doesn't want to be here. So, um, We eventually figured out it was the noise in the room and it was just too overwhelming. Uh, the, just the, the echo in this and the, it was not a great environment for her, um, uh, for, for her sensory needs.

And so. When we had PE outside, uh, where there wasn't as much echo, uh, she was fine. And so we realized, oh, well, we just, you know, it's the environment. It's not, you know, it's not that she didn't want to participate in PE. It's just the environment that was overwhelming for her. And so we, you know, make different plans, but that also doesn't mean that we're like, well, from now on, On PE, we're, you know, never going to try going to general education, PE.

And then Jordan, I, so I talked to Jordan about this and, and she said that when she was in school, um, and didn't have a reliable communication device, sometimes her behavior would communicate to the staff that she didn't want to be somewhere. And she was like, you know, sometimes. I did want to be where I was, but I didn't have the words of the, the, the communication.

Um, I didn't have the communication mode to be able to let them know that, or what was bothering me about that particular situation. And so that just reminded me that we shouldn't assume What a student is thinking, even if their behavior is communicating something, we shouldn't assume that that is actually what they're communicating because we don't have, um, that student's thoughts and feelings.

They're not able to communicate that to us. So that was something that I, I felt like was really important for me to learn. Okay. So that was act two. Um, how does this all work? We're going to take one more quick break, and then we will be back for act three, when we're going to talk about what do we actually do about all this, and then we'll close out the episode.

All right, we'll be right back. Okay. Act three, uh, another costume change. If you're watching on YouTube, I just decided, you know, I did it for the first two. You might as well do it for the last one. Um, I have a yellow background, um, and then I'm wearing, um, Superberry high school, um, Yellow jackets, t shirt with a spray break band of gold hat.

So here we go. Act three, act three, go tell it on the mountain. So Tim, what do we do about all this? Um, great question. I'm glad you asked. Let me just say that, uh, typically this is not how I do podcast episodes. Um, usually I'm much more scripted, although I do have notes in front of me. Uh, if you, you can tell that I'm reading and reading off some of the notes.

Um, but I don't often do solo podcasts. So if you are, if you made it to act three, thank you for listening. Um, Thank you for being a part of what we're trying to do here with, uh, the Think Inclusive Podcast. We really want this podcast to be a way for you to start conversations with people. Um, so many professors of universities, um, have contacted me and saying, Oh, I use, you know, I, uh, assign this particular episode for this class.

Um, I send it to, you know, everybody I So thank you. Thank you so much for that. We really appreciate that. That's really kind of the vision for what we're doing here is to provide a resource that you that that edifies you, but also, um, you know, uh, can can equip people, uh, that, you know, and to share, uh, what, you know, about inclusive practices.

So, um, so the really there's one thing that I just want to leave with, leave you with. And it's very simple. Um, our work begins with a conversation. Um, I want you to think about someone in your life that is, you know, maybe on the fence about inclusive education or inclusive practices. Uh, maybe someone who really genuinely believes that special education classrooms are the best for learners.

Um, Think about someone you already have a relationship with a colleague, a family member, a friend, and I just want you to like, visualize you talking with them about one thing that you learned maybe from this episode or just, uh, something else you heard from the, the, you know, uh, the many episodes that we have in our library or just something you can't stop thinking about with regard to inclusive education.

Uh, my friend, uh, Mark Crenshaw has said this before, uh, systems change is really just conversations over time, you know, hearts and minds need to change. And typically hearts and minds don't change, change through shame, embarrassment, or harsh tactics, you know, think about the last time you had a behavior change.

Was it because Someone shamed you into doing something, uh, you know, perhaps, uh, but think about if that change is long lasting. Um, I argue, I would argue that a long lasting change happens through relationships and investment in those, in the people, um, that you are supporting or that you are just having a friendship with.

I want you to think about something, especially for those who are not fans of like, uh, you know, applied behavior analysis or behaviors principles, you know, I've often heard about how kids do well if they can well, what if it is also adults do well, if they can, what if the same grace that we want teachers to give children is given to the adults that are struggling with the change, um, about how things have been done for years.

so I want to challenge us, especially for those of us who call ourselves inclusionists. To look at our own behavior with how we want people to change and examine some of our own tactics andcould they possibly be the barrier to lasting change? For some people and some school systems, there have been so many times when we at MCIE have been in a school district where some of the most vocal educators who have said, This is not a good idea. I don't like this.

We need to keep segregated classrooms that have been the biggest advocates for change. Because while hearts and minds need to change and conversations should be had, the biggest determinant of that change is actually people experiencing success in their own practice.

So who are you going to talk to you? Find that one person in your mind.

Visualize what you're going to say, and then have a conversation. Our work begins with a conversation. That's it for this episode of Think Inclusive. A big thank you to IXL for sponsoring this episode. You can learn more at ixl. com slash inclusive. Think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed, and mastered by me, Tim Villegas, and is a production of the Maryland coalition for inclusive education, original music by miles credits, additional music by melody.

A huge shout out to our listeners and YouTube subscribers. So if you're watching on YouTube, make sure you subscribe and hit the like button so that we can get our videos out to more people. We have a wonderful lineup of guests coming this season. 

Next week we will have Danny and Tara witty from the all our brave hearts podcast. So definitely check that out. You are not going to want to miss that.thanks for your time and attention. And remember inclusion always works.

We did it. We did it. We did it. 

​