Aaron Lanou Master Audio
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Tim Villegas: All right. Hey Fran. My name is Tim Viegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, and you are listening to or watching Think Inclusive, our podcast that features conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. Now, if you're watching on YouTube, you will notice that I am wearing my Los Angeles Dodgers jersey and I have a friend with me, my friend and neighbor.

His name is Kelvin Jimenez. And uh, as you can see, his jersey, his favorite team is the Yankees. 

Kelvin Jimenez: That's right. That's right. 

Tim Villegas: Um, it is World Series Week. The World Series starts on Friday versus the Los Angeles Staunch Dodgers and the New York Yankees. And I thought it would be fun to have Kelvin come over, uh, and give us his.

World Series prediction. So, uh, Kelman, what do you think? Yeah, we got, 

Kelvin Jimenez: yeah, you know, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7 games. What we got, I think this World Series is gonna be epic. There's, there's a lot of things going on. There's a, a big narrative, but if you had to ask me, I would say Yankees in six. Okay. Okay. I 

Tim Villegas: like that. I like that.

Um, I personally think, well, I'm gonna pick the Dodgers audience. I'm saying 

Kelvin Jimenez: that 

Tim Villegas: I think it's gonna be Dodgers in seven and I think it's gonna be really close. Actually. I think there's gonna be a lot of run scored man. Uh, like previous World Series, it's all about the pitching matchups. Um, I think both the Yankees and the Dodgers offenses are just ridiculous.

So I think we may end up having some high scoring games and it's always fun when that happens. We actually agree on something. Okay. Okay. Kel, I disagree on who's actually gonna win the World Series. Um, but, uh, the other, the other reason I wanted Kelvin to come by and say hi was, um, about, uh, something that you are involved with and 

Kelvin Jimenez: tell us about your hat.

Oh, my hat. So my hat is a concept, uh, concept that I created called Bobby, and it's Spanish. The English translation is Daddy y Papi Bke basically came about 'cause I wanted to encourage kids on asking questions. Uh, one of the best ways that kids learn is by asking questions. So, um, I wanted to make sure that kids feel comfortable asking as many questions as possible so they can get, uh, as much knowledge as possible.

But where's the root cause of that come from? The root cause of that comes from, because when I was growing up, I have what most people would consider an absent dad. What that means is his dad was there, but he really wasn't. So I, I never had a male figure to ask questions to. So there's a lot of things that I grew up wanting to know or needing an answer to that I didn't have it to.

So I wanted to make sure that I passed that forward and encourage kids to ask questions and or kids that were growing up like me, to let them know, Hey, it's okay to ask questions and get it from a different source as long as you get the hair, until you look it for. Awesome. Awesome. And so with topic que, you have some children's books, right?

Yes. I'm on my third children's bookstore. It's a series. One of them, for example, is learning about culture. The other one is learning about general things, and then it's broken into different terms that way the questions are more related to those terms. So you may get mixed questions in all the books, but essentially they try to follow what the term is for that book.

Okay. And people can find those like on Amazon. Um, you can find it on pap.com and you can find the first book on bars. The way that works is the more demand there is, the more they're willing to pick it up. Gotcha. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. All right. And we will, uh, you go ahead and just gimme all those links and we'll put those in the check notes.

Absolutely, absolutely. Uh, for everyone who's interested in, uh, checking out Poppy Poquet. Alright, so, uh, this week's episode is with our guest, Aaron Nu, he's from New York. Um. And he's an inclusive education consultant, and actually he gave his World Series prediction, 

Aaron Lanou: uh, my World Series prediction. I think the Dodgers are gonna sweep the Yankees.

I don't think the Yankees stand a chance. I mean, maybe I might be just a little bit biased in this situation, but I'm calling it for the Dodgers. 

Tim Villegas: Well, I think Aaron and I agree on one thing, 

Kelvin Jimenez: a New Yorker, New York being the Dodgers.

Tim Villegas: I almost forgot to tell you about our incredible sponsor for this season. IXL. IXL is a teaching and learning online platform, uh, designed for kindergarten through 12th grade school districts all across the country, use it to, uh, track and measure progress of their students. It's customizable and it provides a lot of different resources for, uh, learner variability.

If that sounds interesting to you, learn more at i xl.com/inclusive. Again, that's i xl.com/inclusive. Okay, when we come back, my conversation with Aaron Lenu, see you on the other side.

Aaron Leune, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast. Thanks so much, Tim. Really happy to be here with you, Aaron. Okay, so we're on video where this is video Uhhuh. And uh, so for those of you watching on YouTube, uh, you can see Aaron's background and it looks like you have something as a dance floor. Oh, that's back there.

Yeah. The whole phrase says, don't you know it's your dance floor? It's, um, it's a line from a, uh, feminist punk band that I love and my husband made this, uh, it's a little garland banner for me when I moved into this office. Um, oh my gosh, that's amazing. Uh, what band is that? La Tigran. A secret? No, I don't know that.

I know, I knew, I, I've heard from earlier podcasts that you are an Indie Rock fan, so I am an IND indie rock fan. Yeah. Yeah, I am. So I thought I might, I thought I might have done that, but, uh, we'll have to share, we'll have to share track later. Very good. Yeah. Later. Awesome. Uh, Aaron, you're a former, uh, you're a former, uh, classroom teacher if, if what I remember.

Yes. Yep. Um, and usually as classroom teachers, especially those, uh, who work with kids receiving special education services, inclusion, um, is important to them. And I'm wondering why is it important to you? Hmm. Yeah. I, um, I've been in the educational world for about 20 years now, a little more than, and, um, I think I've just come to see inclusive education as just like simply, right?

Like it's just the right way to do things. It's just like correct way. It's the just way, the fair way to do things. Um, and. The way I see it now is like, it's almost absurd the way we actually do things typically, right? Like we have these systems set up that, um, uh, evaluate kids in a very particular way and someone who doesn't know the child all that well, um, makes some determination about that child's ability.

And from that, um, comes up with a setting that that child is supposed to learn best in. And, um, oftentimes the, you know, child doesn't have any say in that all too often the families don't have much say in that. Um, and there's also not that much evidence that that setting is actually gonna benefit that child, you know, learning wise, social, emotionally in the long run.

Um, that system just seems kind of, um, bizarre and and wrong to me when, when you kind of think about it this way and, and, um, though this might feel pie in the sky, I feel like what should happen is it's like as simple as like young person. Hello. You live in this neighborhood and this is your school. It's where all your friends go and all your neighborhoods go.

Um, so welcome to the school. Um, you go here like everyone else does no matter what. And our whole job is to like know you and figure you out and figure out what you need to learn best, and you're gonna get a great education here along with all of your people in your community. Um, that, that's sort of just like logical, you know?

And, and I think mm-hmm. Just for many, many reasons. Um, the, the history of how we've done education, special education, the sort of, you know, political aspects of it, um, uh, ways that people in various different communities and identity groups have been excluded, uh, historically and continually. Um, we know that's not actually what happens, but it, it, like, at its core, it just feels like, well, isn't that, isn't that how it should just go?

Mm-hmm. And, and I only, it seems so simple, but I also recognize it's a lot harder than that. Um, I also recognize that my take on it is based on. My experience, people I've been exposed to and worked with, and people whose work I've read and, you know, disabled advocates who I've, I've learned so much from, and I know that not everyone's on that path and had the same exposure to the same people and same ideas.

Uh, and there are really just entrenched systems that we're working sort of against. Uh, though I don't like to frame things in sort of battle metaphors. Um, it is kind of true oftentimes. So I, so it's like, it's simple and yet I get that it's not simple. It should be this way, and I see why it's not. And I think the work that you do and we do is just about finding the ways to get closer to that, like, simple reality.

Yeah. Um, I like what you said about like, you know, the ways to get there. 'cause I, I think that, uh, sometimes we can get into the mindset that like, our way is the only way, um, and the right way. Uh, and certainly I think that there are better ways, right? Um, and I'll just give you a quick example. Um, like slow, methodical, um, purposeful, intentional planning of, of like transitioning from segregated classrooms to inclusive classrooms, I think is better than snapping our fingers and saying, okay, everyone's in general ed, the whole school or district, and we're just gonna figure it out.

Okay. Like, I think one's better than the other. Yeah. But if you're, but if you are, if you've made the commitment to be like, we're gonna make it work, then, you know, kudos to you. Right? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's a really, that's a good, I appreciate in our earlier conversations too, you've always, um, dug into the sort of like realities and nuance and challenges of this and, and though we like to.

Snapper fingers sometimes they talk about waving a magic wand and just like having, um, the systems set up and the people where they should be to, to just like make this a reality for people. We know that the reality is PE teachers need training. Um, schools need resources. Uh, you know, people need to be brought up to speed.

We, we need to sort of like have a shared understanding of this work and what it's about and a shared commitment and that doesn't happen overnight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I have like, I have yet to really talk with an educator who once, like ex once, like who you explain, hey, what, what we are talking about and I'm just, I'm looping everyone in as far as inclusion advocates.

Right. Okay. What, like when we are talking about like inclusive education, um, we are not talking about, um. Just putting kids with and without disabilities in the same classroom a hundred percent of the time no matter what. And that's what we mean with inclusion. Like that is not what I mean. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

You know, if there isn't any discussion about support or what happens if a child, um, is having a difficult time in a, uh, general education environment, what do we do then? Right? Yeah. Yeah. So there's like all of these questions. It doesn't mean that we don't plan for a hundred percent, um, but there's, there's going to be because of the nature that everyone is different, right?

Uh, and you're going to meet, uh, people in different ways. Uh, a fully inclusive system plans for a hundred percent who, uh, but it doesn't always mean that you're gonna get there, but it's not the kids' fault. It's on, it's the adults, right? Yeah. We haven't figured it out yet. 

Aaron Lanou: Yeah. 

Tim Villegas: And we're sorry children, young people.

Yes. Because we should have, 

Aaron Lanou: we should have. It's all enough. It 

Tim Villegas: really is. And I think I, I, yeah, I, um, I, I feel like, um, I, let's see, I'm 45. Um, I feel like I've gotten to a point in my life where everything is about holding conflicting ideas simultaneously in my head at the same time. And I, I, I'd heard people talk about that as like a sign of maturity.

I hope it is. Um, but the, it is, it's challenging. It's next to impossible, but we have to hold in our minds at the same time. This must happen. Inclusion, inclusive settings. Truly inclusive settings need to happen for all kids all the time. Like right away. They deserve it and people are ready for it. Um, like it, it won't work in the way that you described.

It won't, we can't snap our fingers. It's not gonna happen overnight. I. And, um, that's for a whole host of reasons that we, in order to make that work, we need to truly understand, to work with and work through, um, to, to get closer to that reality. And I think it's, it is sometimes really hard, um, to reconcile those two different things that I feel very equally very strongly about, um, mm-hmm.

That like, you know, very well-meaning smart, hardworking teachers who aren't super inclusively minded and, and, uh, and you know, don't maybe teach in an inclusive setting or do and don't do it that well, like, are working really hard and are in a profession that's not respected and, um, are suffering burnout and having to deal with, uh, all the fallout from, uh, covid both for their students and themselves and their families.

Like, that's very hard. That's very hard. And I have incredible, um, compassion and patience and understanding for people who like, don't just. Agree with everything I say, but, but, but like, wanna do the right thing. Wanna do right by kids. And like I said, haven't been exposed to things I've been exposed to, got the training, I've been lucky enough to, you know, to receive, um, been able to like, collaborate with the amazing people I've been able to collaborate that's gotten me personally to this spot where this is what I think is important.

Um, and I think years ago in a, in a program I worked in, we, we had a, a theme of our year and the theme was start from where they're at. Um, and we had a little one-pager that we distributed to all these, you know, hundreds and hundreds of teachers start from where they're at. They're at. It's not about, you know, we're getting all these kids to this place.

It's like, okay, we wanna support children with organization and executive functioning skills. What are they currently able to do? Let's start there and get'em into the next step. Um, you know, we wanna support autistic students, social development, where are they now? Let's really understand it and in a very respectful way, let's see what it takes to get to the next step.

Um, and I think the same mindset and same sort of, um, approach has to be true of. People who are in a position to be able to support teachers in this work, start from where they're at. Everyone's at a different place. Let's move the needle as much as we can in a like, authentic, helpful, practical way. Um, because we don't just get to have 1 44 minute conversations with teachers leave, and then everything is magical and, and, uh, unicorns and rainbows and inclusively beautiful.

Uh, you know, when we leave their, their classroom. So it, it takes time and patience and compassion and understanding and dedication and all those things. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why would we, why would we, like, encourage teachers to, you know, um, have relationships with students and, and like understand where the students are coming from.

Right. And that kind of like start where, start where they are. Why would we encourage teachers to do that for their students? But as leaders and coaches not do the same thing for teachers. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's hard when you hold yourself to the expectation that you walk the walk of what you're asking of others.

Uh, it's, yeah. You get, it's hard, it's hard to live that, but I think it, you know, people who are really committed to this work, I think hold themself to that standard. Absolutely. Um, I'm wondering as you're thinking about, you know, um, how inclusion actually impacts learners, if you have any, um, stories or thoughts that, that come to mind.

Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I, a lot of times when I talk about inquisitive practice, I have this little, um, I. Sort of keynote animated video thing I've developed, um, that I don't think translates as well, just purely audio, but I'll do my best to sort of describe it. That sort of frames the way I think about it. And that's, um, you know, sort of simply as, uh, think about learning as climbing a mountain.

Um, all, all people have to do it. It's hard work to climb a mountain. It's gotta be, learning is just hard. Um, it's, it's supposed to be hard. Um, but the way we've designed school, um, kids don't just have to climb the mountain of learning. They have to climb the mountain of learning that we've like thrown all these boulders on top of.

And the boulders are things like, Hey, in order to learn, let's say math, you also have to sit still for 45 minutes at a time. That, that's not like required of learning. That's like in the way we've designed school. In order to learn math, you've got to, um, listen to and attend to and retain a lot of verbal information that I'm giving.

Um. That's not required for learning. That's just how we do school. Right? And there's a lot of those things we just, the way we've set up the system of schooling requires things that aren't expected of actual learning, but are expected you expected of kids to do well in school the way we made it, right?

And so each of those things like sit, still, listen to me, attend produce, written work, are all these like boulders or barriers we throw in kids' pass on their, climb up this right learning mountain. And, and the, the thing is, it's different kids come to the base of that mountain as I say it, with different tools in their packs just naturally because humans are different from one another.

And some kids come to the base of the mountain with like pick axes and shovels and stuff that are really good for getting over that boulder. The sit still boulder, no problem. I got it now I can learn the math in school the way you want me to. And other kids come to that mountain with other tools that are great tools like, um, screwdrivers, which is a great, very handy tool.

I installed am dimmer switch in my, in my apartment the other day where I thought I was gonna, um, electrocute myself and burn out the building and I didn't. And screwdriver's a great tool. Kids might have like a snorkel. Snorkels a great tool. It just doesn't help you when you're climbing a mountain trying to get over a boulder, right?

And so we don't value those strengths that kids bring to school. We value only certain subset of strengths that kids bring to school. And so getting to inclusive practice, like the way I think about it is, um, basically like weaving, uh, a net of support that's over the mountain. So when these boulders come like crashing down on top of the mountain, it catches at least most of the stuff that's gonna get in kids' way and impede their journey.

So like if sitting still is an expectation, like, yeah, we have lots of desks and chairs and they're not well designed, but we can make movement breaks, just normal practice in our classroom, we can incorporate. Body movement, um, to the extent that kids are able to, um, in, into lessons like meaningfully, right?

And if we expect kids to listen a lot, attend, remember information, we can also write directions on the board. We can have visual supports. We can create broken down checklists for kids. Um, so like there are things we can do, practices we can do that like minimize the impact of these unnecessary barriers that we've just created in the way we've designed school.

And so the way I like to talk about that is that like those things are gonna be perfect. Like the thing that a snorkel kid needs to be successful, like without the written directions, without the movement break, not gonna do well in math with those things. They got it, but there's gonna be some other kids you weren't even thinking about and weren't even planning for supporting who also really like to have those written directions and like to have those movement breaks and these supports can benefit everybody.

I. They're not gonna hurt anybody, and they're not a huge lift. They're not asking teachers to do a whole lot of extra work, um, oftentimes. Right? And so framing inclusive practice that way. I, I've, I've, I've, um, seen a lot of examples of, you know, when you're a special ed teacher in a co-taught classroom and you're navigating having an individualized support for a kid, they're in fifth grade.

They're 10, 11 years old. They're very aware of who's sitting next to them and what people are getting. And you respectfully give one or two kids a graphic organizer that someone else doesn't have a way to reduce the stigma, not seem like it's a weird thing or bad thing or wrong thing, his, um, to make it available to anyone.

And I've even had kids look at it and be like, not why is that kid getting that paper? But like, oh, that looks helpful. Can I have that too? I think the answer is yes, you can. Yeah, you could absolutely have that too. Uh, I wasn't even thinking of you specifically when I designed this thing, but yeah, absolutely.

If you think this is gonna help you organize your essay. Do it, have at it. Um, and so I think just like certain practices that we think of as being tailored for individual students, have the potential to benefit lots of students and also contribute to like a, a, a tone a, a, a, a, um, ethos in a classroom where like we all get different things, need different things, get what we need in this space, and that's like the norm, uh, and isn't questioned.

And I think that is a really powerful, like there's the practical impact, like the kids' essays better after having that graphic organism. There's also this sort of like emotional self-image, uh, community impact where people are like, yeah, yeah, in this place it's okay to ask questions. It's okay to ask for help.

Uh, I'm gonna ask for what I need. Uh, work on self-advocacy skills with all kinds of kids is like, has huge, huge benefits. Yeah, the, I, I, I like how you like the, the specially-designed instruction for like one or two students. Right. It's not SDI for everyone else, it's just a support. 

Aaron Lanou: Yeah. 

Tim Villegas: Right. Yeah. And they can use it or not use it, but for the kids who it's designed for, it's, it's SDI and that's their special education.

Yeah. Um, and you can do that. Like there's no, there, there's no special education police that are like, I'm sorry, you know, but that, that, that's the thing is like people, I think people really feel like, oh, no, no, no. That was designed for them. You cannot use that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I love though there's no special ed police.

Like it's, it's, it's, you know, I, I, I, I think that, yeah, there are ways that we think about learning that we like sometimes for, for kids who have IEPs. We get so hyper-focused on unfortunately, deficits, right, challenges they have, but let's frame it positively. And we're doing it in a strength-based way. We think of like supports that are gonna benefit them.

We think about how to design it best, so it's gonna be a good match for their, you know, um, the way they learn. Um, uh, and that's great and that's really important for that kid and all that work, um, is super important for that kid and also is more efficient and effective when we think like, oh wait, all that fun I just put into how I'm gonna support this kid in this way really has the potential to be useful to lots of other kids in this space.

And so it, you know, when a kid needs something specific, we, we, we figure it out and we give it to them, we provide it to them. I'm not saying everything should be universal. Everyone gets everything. Some kids need something very specific and that's okay. A kid requires a, an aac c device to communicate like that child should have that have access to it, people should know about it.

All those things. That's okay. That's good. But there are a lot of things that we do that we think we're doing, especially for one kid, um, unfortunately all too often in separate settings, that if mm-hmm. We are in one setting and we figure out a way to provide those things to all kids, um, a lot of other people are gonna, are gonna benefit, I think.

Yeah. That's a good example. Uh, a a CI think that's a really example of something that's, that, that is unique to an individual and not everyone needs an a, a C device. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we, we talked a little bit about barriers for learners, but I'd like to talk about barriers that for teachers, you know mm-hmm.

As both of us have been, former classroom teachers, both of us, you know, in similar situations, uh, you know, similarish, uh, with working in a system, working within a system, trying to change the system within, um, uh, what. What are some barriers that inclusively minded teachers, uh, face that, uh, like in schools that still segregate learners?

Yeah. Um, well, I, I think, like you said earlier, there's this, there's often misconception of inclusion as a place, right? Mm-hmm. We're doing our job by, by the fact that a kid with an IP is in this particular class. And we know that's not inclusion. Um, inclusion involves the structures that get the kid into that space in part, but they're also practices and they're also like mindsets that write like philosophy approach.

Um, and so I sometimes talk about the m and ms of inclusive education, which is just a catchy way to try to remember those things, which is like, um, method, mindset. And then the s at the end is for those structures. Um, so you need the method. You need the practices. You need to know what tools to use. Um.

But if all you have is like a great graphic organizer and you don't know who to work, who to use it with, like you're a little stuck, right? Graphic organizer for everyone, even if you don't need it, and it's the wrong one, right? So you need the mindset, you need the approach, you need the understanding, you need the, like, understanding of why and when.

Um, you need that like commitment to strengths-based, uh, work. So we don't fall into sort of, you know, ized, kinking and models of supporting kids. And you need those structures, the the systems you need to make sure the kids are actually in the building and that the building is accessible and that, um, there's professional development support for teachers.

So we need all three, right? Mindset, method, and structures. And I think the barriers show up in each one of those things. Unfortunately, um, for the teachers you're describing, right? Like there are mindset barriers. If you find yourself in a school where you're really committed to inclusion and it's not the norm, it can be exhausting.

It can be isolating. Um, you might have to deal with. Either condescending or sometimes like combative things that your colleagues say or hint about your work, and that's not great. Um, you might fall into this thing where it's like, oh, your kids, my kids kind of thing. Where it's like there's not this shared responsibility and commitment that's really hard to grapple with.

Um, and you might just be like working in a, in a place in a culture where like it's very medical mi medical model mindset of like, you know, kids have, certain kids have problems and I think it's your job over there to fix them. Right? And I don't have to worry about it. Um, and that's really hard. And that's just the mindset stuff.

Yeah. Then there's the practice stuff of like, you might not have the resources, you might not have the, um, the, um, access to training and support that you need to know what to do to support your students. And then unfortunately the structures piece too, uh, uh, you might just not have the students in your room.

That you, that you know, you should have, it should be there with you. You might not have a co-teacher or co-teacher all the time because the funding or the scheduling, you know, hasn't allowed for it. Um, you might be constantly having to advocate for your kids to be able to go on field trips or like be at the assembly, even though assemblies often are terrible.

And I would love for many kids to not, you know, have an alternative if they're not even thought of. They're not even included, right? They're just like structural, systemic things that exclude kids all the time. So I think they show up in all those spots, all the things we want to have work in kids' favor sometimes, unfortunately.

Uh, do the opposite. Uh, I, this reminds me of a story. So, um, uh, this was when I was teaching in a segregated classroom K through five for students with significant intellectual disabilities. Um, and. I had a student, she, uh, used a wheelchair. She, uh, oh, uh, had a feeding tube that, that fed her. Um, and, and so there was a multiple things going on.

Some, some health, some health issues and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. And she came to me when she was in kindergarten. Um, we included her in kindergarten during, um, uh, like circle time. And the teacher was great. And, you know, so we, we had developed a great relationship. Um, and the, and so we, this was I think like the first few weeks of school and we're like figuring out specials, you know, like going to the gym or going mm-hmm.

You know, to, um, to art or pe uh, I mean, uh, uh, art or music. And this young lady, uh, we were taking her into the gym for, uh, for pe and I had a relationship with the PE teacher. So, uh, you know, we were doing our best to have an integrated PE time and the, like, the second we had, we had brought her into the gym, she lost it.

Like she was, she was already non-speaking. Uh, uh, so the only way we knew that, you know, whether she was happy or sad or anything, was just kind of the, the noises that she made. And this was a definitely unhappy noise. Okay. Yes, exactly. And so I had, I think I had, you know, trained or drilled into my staff that it's like, you know, uh, inclusion, you know, like, we're gonna make, we're gonna make this work.

And they looked at me giving, and they were like, what do we do? You know, because. Like, like in their hearts, they wanted her to participate in pe Right. But she is like obviously upset and does not wanna be there, and I don't know why. Right. So I'm like, well, like, we're not gonna torture her. Yeah. So, you know, like, we need, like, we need to leave, like we need to take her out and figure out what's, figure out what's going on.

Right. Well, we learned that this particular student did not feel comfortable in like, these big open and like echoey spaces. Mm-hmm. That she didn't feel safe. She didn't want, she didn't want to be there. So we had to, we had to plan something different for that student. He, um, did we stop trying though? No, we didn't.

We didn I knew the answer to the question before you said it. Yes. Well, I think, I think that there's, you know, um, I think we could have said like, Nope, that's it, it's over. Yeah, right. We tried, this is gonna be too much. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, and there certainly was, if I'm remembering correctly, like discussions about, we probably shouldn't do that again.

But I guess my, my whole perspective, and again, I didn't always, uh, things didn't always go the way that I wanted them to, but, um, my perspective is like, we couldn't figure it out for this particular student, you know? Um, but we're, we're gonna figure out something else, you know? Mm-hmm. And, uh, maybe we're only gonna go for a few minutes at a time and hopefully help her feel safe in those few minutes.

Yes. So, um, and she was young and, and, and stuff, so I think things got better as we moved along. She ended up. Going to another school, I believe actually after the second, after her, uh, the next year. Um, so I didn't, I don't really know the end of the story there, but, um, but yeah, I just share that because, um, because again, I think, I think this is a recurring theme in our conversation.

It's like, we're not in the business of torturing kids, right? Just because, yeah. Just because, like, we want, uh, quote unquote inclusive placement in, in classes. Like, yeah. Yeah. No, no. We, I mean, we gonna figure it out. We're gonna figure it out. We're committed to that. Um, but yeah. You know, uh, yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, no, no. I, I, um, a good friend, mentor of mine, uh, Dorothy Siegel, um, who was a, a big, um, advocate, um, for, uh, inclusive education for decades here in New York City. Um, she, I. Has been doing this work for decades, long, long time. And she, um, sometimes talks about like what she used to see, she sees less of in New York City public schools now, a lot less.

Um, but the, the way it was in the past, she said people who were doing inclusion were doing the drop in prey model, which is sort of what you were describing before. That's like, they're in the room. We, I think we're doing it. And, and Right. And the, the prey part is like, let's just hope it works out without the problem solving, like you were just describing and the commitment to, ooh, we tried it.

This didn't seem to be, you know, jiving. Certainly not the kids' fault. It's on us to figure this out. Um, and I think you, I think your story is a really good one too, because the other sort of nuance of inclusion is, um, that it's not part of the reason it's not just about place and it's just about getting kids in the room is because, um, inclusion is not about like, we're doing this thing here.

You're gonna come and do it the way we're all doing it. Um, and that will be success. We have to rethink all those things and assumptions and entrenched ideas about how we do school for the benefit of not just students with IEPs, but really lots of other kids who are not able to learn their best, sometimes excluded, sometimes get in trouble for not sort of right conforming or assimilating to this like very rigid way.

We've, we've, um, designed schooling to work. And so like, it's, it's a very stark image and I hope, you know, it was a happy ending in the end for her to be able to participate meaningful in a way, in meaningfully, in a way that works for her. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. Let's hope, let's really hope that, you know, where she went.

She had a, she had a team like yours to do that work, but I think it would, it's not, um, it's not about, I think the image of a, of a, of a student. Entering, especially a gym, a pe like a, like a gymnasium, which we just know instantly we all have these like sense memories of the noise, right? The light, the, the echo, the balls flying in the air like that, all that stuff like, um, a, a child being expected just to Yep.

Figure it out. Is, is just, that's not, yeah. That's such a good non example of what inclusion is. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Uh, another, so this also brings up, um, I just want to, uh, give a shout out to, uh, the team at Ruby Bridges Elementary School in Woodville, Washington. Uh, Kathy Davis is a, is a friend and a colleague.

Um, and something that she says, uh, that I love is like, we thought of you when we designed or built this place. Yes. And it was it. And so, um, everything that I know about re bridges, I was fortunate enough to, um, visit. Uh, and, uh, and observe what the, what the school looks like. Um, but when you have a mindset of everyone belongs in this school, right?

Um, and we are going to design spaces in this school that don't exclude you, um, but that, uh, support you mm-hmm. And that you belong in every single space that everyone else belongs in. Um, when you have that mindset, it's so much easier to be a problem solver, right? Because everyone's on the same page.

Everyone's like, everyone's in, everyone belongs. Um, there's some problems here that we're gonna figure out. In fact, in, in her office, uh, I did an interview with her. Um, and so we walk into the office and on her, uh, uh, like bookshelves in the back, she has a sign that says Everything is figureoutable. And I love that.

Right? Me too. Everything is figureoutable. Like imagine, just imagine if everyone at a school had that mindset. Yeah. Yeah. That would change things a lot because I think a lot of what we people face when they confront this resistance to inclusive practice and mindset is, um, the, we can't. Mm-hmm. We can't.

For all the reasons, we don't have space, we don't have the money, we don't have the resources, uh, the training. Like there's a lot of, we can't do it. And to just have that, um, very growth mindset, sety sort of, uh, philosophy. Like we're, we're gonna figure this out. We can, and we will figure this out, is that's the game changer.

To just like enter into a very difficult, um, thing to, to figure out and get right. So to speak. To get right as right as you can. That that right's gotta help a lot. Yeah. Um, yeah, quick. Like side plug for inclusion stories. 'cause I think you, Ruby Bridges was, was featured on that and that was a fabulous Oh yeah, no, thank you for bringing that up.

I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really, really amazing to hear about what they're doing and also the process they went through too, not just like, look at his place, it's so great. Here's your tour. Like the thinking that went into, um, that and, and then they don't sort of sugarcoat it. It's a lot of work, you know, master scheduling and all the rest.

It's a lot. Um, like you were just talking about, it's not a snap your fingers thing. Um, but that was a really, um, powerful story to hear. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. I, I did not pay Aaron to say that, so I appreciate that. Yes. Listen to inclusion stories, uh, on, uh, your favorite podcast player. It's a five part series.

Um, and I believe the one that you're talking about is part four, but I, I can't part three or four. Um, I think it's four 'cause uh, three is, uh, c home high school, I believe. Um. Let's talk about advice because I know, um, probably there's some educators out there that are listening and being like, yes, Aaron, Tim, I'm, I am with you.

Um, I believe in inclusive practices, but you know what, uh, I'm, I'm just not in the right spot. You know, I'm not in a school that believes in it. I don't have leadership that believes in it. And you know what? Um, I don't want to quit my job because I love working with kids. Like that is real. Okay. There's like thousands and thousands of teachers that are in that position.

So do you have any advice for them? Hmm. Um. I would say keep listening to Think inclusive. And I, I don't mean to just keep plugging stuff, but I really mean it again, again, he was not a sponsor. No. But, uh, we appreciate it. But I do, I really do think it's powerful and part of the reason I mention that is I think it's really important to find your people.

Um, and they might be people out in the world that you don't know, but they're on Instagram or have a podcast or wrote a book or are on YouTube. There are a lot of people in this world of inclusive education, real advocates, um, that are sharing stories that are really powerful, that are offering, um, you know, practical advice and guidance and support and strategies that can be really helpful.

Um, that I think are kind of make or break for someone who's like really looking like eager for and looking for this work. Um, I. And wants to do it well and isn't in a place. Um, I've been very, like I mentioned, I've been very lucky to be surrounded in my, many of my professional settings by, um, co-teachers and, and colleagues.

And mentors who, who push for this and advocate for this. And it's, it's just, I, I, how lucky am I to have been able to experience that? And I just recognize that's not everyone's, you know, reality. Um, also I think finding your people is about finding people at your school, even if they're not, like at your grade level or your department.

Like, there's probably someone else who thinks pretty similar to you in your building and you might not run into them in the hall every day, but like, if you can try to make an effort to like, I don't know, take the subway home together or parking lot you, not in New York City, whatever, right? Like, like to have chats or whatever, find each other, connect with each other.

I think that that's very sustaining. Um, yeah. One of the, one of the, um. Best compliments I've ever gotten for, um, any of my work ever came a couple weeks ago. Uh, and I, I gave a, um, a presentation at the, uh, university of Sydney, uh, successful learning conference. And, um, it was on circle kids and inclusive practice and executive functioning supports and stuff.

And, um, a teacher wrote to me afterwards and said, um, exactly what you've even saying. I, I, I'm advocate for this work. I care about this work so much. I love this work and I'm in a building where it is not the norm and I don't get any support and people don't think this way. And I'd been seriously considering leaving the profession.

And I think your talk just got me through another year and like, ooh, wow. Like being a piece of, being partially responsible for someone who was really committed to this work, feeling like they, they got a little bit more in the tank to stick with it is, is a. What a gift that is. Like, that was really powerful to hear.

So I, I think people just need to know that there are people doing this work that care about this work out there, and it's possible to connect with people. Um, and I also think it's about, in terms of like practice, I think it's about, um, recognizing, thinking about your sphere of influence. Like the, the biggest thing is like do right by your kids and, and likely they're doing that already, these folks.

And beyond that, I think you could be an advocate for your kids, advocate for your families, see push and nudge a little bit where you feel comfortable, um, doing so. And to the extent you've got anything left in the tank after teaching all day long. Um, but I think like finding ways to, um. Say like, you know what, this year or all I got right now is like, I'm gonna do a really dang good job in my classroom doing what I know is good practice.

Other times that's like, you feel like you have a little bit more reserves to like, you know what, I'm gonna speak up more in those staff meetings. Uh, I'm gonna set up a meeting with the principal or something in the district. Like, if you have the capacity to do that, that's fabulous and important and really meaningful to do.

And like you alluded to earlier, it doesn't always mean the thing you wanna have happen will happen, but it's, it can be really powerful and sometimes that is what happens. Um, and the last thing is, I, I, I, uh, I like this. Um, there's a story, a friend, former colleague of mine, um, shared. She, she was teaching in a, in a, um, in a separate setting in a school that wasn't super inclusively minded.

And she's teaching second grade and found out that the second grade. Team, the whole grade was going on a field trip and no one thought to invite her second grade class on that field trip. And so she was in the office and saw a copy of the field trip, field trip, permission slip on the copier, and was like, well, I'll run 12 more of these.

Why not? And ran the copy, sent them home, showed up, Hey, yeah, hey, we're here. And the teachers were surprised, but she was like, again, like, all my slips, uh, we're ready to go. We're so excited to go into the zoo, or whatever it was. And so I think if you have to get scrappy sometimes just to make it work for you and your kids, um, sometimes that's what it takes.

Aaron, where can people find more about, uh, you and the services that you offer? Uh, yeah, I, um, I do a lot of inclusive education, coaching and, and, um, presenting and consulting, um, in New York City and around the country and world. And, um, I, one thing I'm, I'm running this year that folks might be interested in as I'm, I'm doing a workshop series on inclusive practice called Designing Teaching Differently, and it's gonna be seven different workshops, uh, between October and May one a month on things like executive functioning and Universal Design for Learning and social stories, visual supports, and some other things that are all in that realm of, of, uh, you know, inclusive practice essentials essentially.

Um, and so folks can find more information about that at my website, which is just aaron nu.com, my need to Google it or whatever. It's not the most logical name, but, um, you know, we'll either see it in the show notes or the title of this or whatever. Um, and also on Instagram at, at Aaron Lenu. Same problem with spelling, uh, LinkedIn you can find there.

Um, but yeah, most of the places where there are, um, people doing things and putting things out there, I'm there except for TikTok having gotten not the TikTok. Okay. Have you gotten on that one yet? Nope. Yeah, I, I resisted, I resisted too. We are, we are on, actually, uh, I don't think I've ever said this on an episode, so we are on TikTok, y'all.

If you, if you want to buy this, we're at Maryland Coalition 'cause like NCIE and like there's other ones that just like everything else was taken for something. So that's, that's where we are. Um, but I don't advertise that, that's not something I, you know, let people know. But now, you know, if you wanna get on there, you can follow both Aaron and, and us.

And, uh, we'll make sure to put your link, uh, in the share notes and then you know, your name and the, the spelling of your name. Most likely in the title, so Great. Um, great. So thank you for letting us know where to find you. Okay. So Aaron, are you ready for the mystery? Rushed it. Nervous, but ready.

All right. My stack is putting a lot more, when it, when I first started, it was like that big and now it's, alright. Here we go. The British different. Who is someone you'd like to trade places with for a day? I mean, if I can get that on the camera. Can I get that on the camera? Yeah. Who is someone you'd like to trade places for, trade places with for a day?

Who wants to go first? You want, you want a second to think about it? I think I have mine. If I'm, if you need another minute, we'll go. 'cause I don't, I don't have it. You don't have it? Okay. Um, sometimes, I know that's not the question you asked, but sometimes I've been asked, if you weren't in education, what would you do?

Sure. Yeah. Uh, I think you might heal similarly. I answer like without hesitation, drummer in a rock band. I don't think I'm, that, I don't think I'm good enough to be, and I could not like stand the life on the road or whatever and I don't think cool enough. There's a lot of things that would not work about it, but, um, I've like, that's just like sort of dream land for me.

So, um, Janet Weiss is one of my favorite drummers. She's from Quasi and Slater Kinney and he shows Oh yeah, Ikin. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think she's great. And I could actually like do what she can do like with her drums for a day. Think that would feel amazing. Oh wow. Wow. That's great. That is great, man. This is a tough one.

Because I don't have anyone, like anyone specific. Like, I'm not, I'm not gonna name drop. Uh, but so I will say that at, uh, I've been an NPR listener for like, you know, since, uh, early college. Probably not high school, but early college. And, um, I was, I like always fantasized about being like, on a morning edition or something like that, like being like the host or whatever.

Um, I know that's a tough job, but it would be really cool Yeah. To just do that for a day. I'd probably be like so exhausted. But it's just one day. It's just one day and you, it's just one day. Yeah. You get to sleep or recover. It's just one day. It's so different from what like, uh, it is adjacent, you know, uh, to what I do, uh, now, but it's, uh, you know, at least I have time to like.

Know, come up with questions and think about it, you know, and just, and take my time and stuff. And you know, and I know that NPR, the, the folks at NPR have, have a team of people, so, um, but I would always, I liked, I probably, if I got to go to like one of the national NPR studios, um, somewhere, I'd probably be geeky out.

Like where the stuff, I love that, like way too much Willy, too much, uh, excitement over that, probably with, yeah. Um, yeah. Terry, well, Terry Gross has a big following. I know. She, she's like, you know, cult hero. Like, you're not alone in, uh, in that, uh, in that ceiling. It was what, that's cool though. You, I mean, you, I, I, you know, I've been hyping you up a lot, but I, it's authentic.

You're a great interviewer, and I think that sounds like a really good match for Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yes. Great. Yes. Um, yeah, I, uh, we, we support our local NPR station, uh, WABI live in Atlanta. Um, um, the NCIE. Uh, uh, is in Maryland. Um, I already know the NPR stations up there, unfortunately. I probably should.

But, um, yeah, we, we, uh, we like to rep WABE around here, so Nice. Love our NPR, uh, stations and local affiliates. So, cool. Thank you. I actually wanted, like, uh, let's do a bonus. Bonus que a bonus mystery question because, uh, we, we had a little bit of time and I wanna talk about music. So you said you, um, you're a big fan of the in Rock, so I'm wondering, um, like if you pull up your, uh, Spotify or wherever you listen to music playlists, like what are the things you will sing to right now?

Um, ma'am, I just told you, I think I'm not cool enough to be able to like rep this, but I'll do my best. Um, I, I, um, most of the time I listen to music is when I'm jump roping, which I do all the time. It's like my, my exercise and Oh, interesting. And all this stuff. Yeah. So I have a jump rope playlist that is like.

Like they're all the perfect BPM to like get me jaed and keep me going. And it's, I've got some great, it's like a mix of like, it's mostly old stuff. I'm not that in touch with things these days, but I've got a lot of, um, Pixies and Blondie and talking heads and, um, there's some great things by, uh, taco Cat from Seattle.

Um, there's this band, dinosaur Skin from Taiwan. Um, and the Clash, like the whole, the whole whole, um, self-titled album is like, I think 175 BPM, like every single song. So you just listen to that whole more way jump rope for like 27 minutes straight. Um, so yeah, that, that's, that's, that's currently what gets rotation is the Jump rope playlist.

That is fantastic. That was great. I love the Clash. Uh, I met Joe Strum in person. Did you? Oh, so this was like. Um, this is back in my Rock and Roll Bay, uh, back in LA when I, when I, because I worked in, uh, Los Angeles County. It's a big county, but we would go into, go into LA just to see shares, and it was at this club called the El Ray, which is like an old theater.

I'm, and there's a, we we're seeing a band called Blonde Redhead, which uh, is like, you know, indie rock, um, legends. Uh, and me and my buddy, I was in the band with time while we walked past the bar, and there's Joe Strummer hanging out at the bar. And so my, the buddy Chad, he's like, you know, effing Joe Strummer is at the bar.

Like, we need to go and have a drink with just Trevor. And so I'm like, okay, sure. Like, you know, like he was like, I didn't have the courage to do that, but he did. So I just followed with him and he was like. Introduced himself and you know, he's just talking with some people or whatever. And so, uh, we, we wanted to buy him shots.

Um, and, uh, he's like, no, I, I don't, I don't do that anymore. Like, you gimme a Corona a sip. He bought, you know, rebought him or he bought him a Corona. And we uh, we toasted and we had a drink with Jess drummer. Amazing. And we left. Yeah. It's good to have friends like your friend who I share your, like, in context, like that lack of courage to be able to just like go up.

It's just a person. I was like, no, I'm not. No, I'm not gonna bother Jess drummer. Like, no, but he's like, no, I am. But about a just drummer. I once saw the weather. No, the traffic reporter from New York, one a looked local, like cable, like news station, um, Jamie Stealer at a, like a book event. And I was like, I want to tell her that we watch her every day and we sometimes, like, I.

In celebration of her not mocking her, say exactly the way she does to Pat Kon and, and like a little tiny local sort of celebrity, whatever. Sure, sure. Yeah. I could not, I could not muster up the courage to go up and just say anything to her, and I just sort of like shyly, like retreated and got super red and walked right by her.

So, oh, no. Good on you. You got a friend who, okay. Okay. Well, um, okay, well here's to us having people with us to encourage us to do those sorts of things. It's all about independence, isn't it, Tim? Interdependence that I, I like it. I like it. Yes. Full circle there. Joe, Aaron, Len, thank you so much for being on the Pick Inclusive podcast.

This was, uh, a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun as well. Thank you for having me and thanks for putting this out there to the world. Tim,

welcome back. It's time for the part of the episode that I like to call. Three for me and two for you, where I give three reflections about the conversation that we just had with Aaron Lenu and two calls to action. So number one, what's my number one? First, I'd like to point out that the conversation that Erin and I had about inclusive education and kind of the state of how schools are right now, a lot of educators wanting inclusive education, inclusive practices, and a lot of families as well, but not knowing how to get there, I just wanna point out that this is a conversation that's happening all over the United States in Canada and all educational systems, and so I really appreciated.

Aaron's just honesty about how hard it is to move things forward, and I'm reminded that not everyone is ready for this change. As someone who works in communications and tries to deliver this message every day, whether it's talking to somebody in person or over zoom or in our socials, there's a lot of people with a lot of different reasons why inclusive education won't work, and so I just wanted to reflect that.

The kind of conversation that Aaron and I have, I hope that it will help you have some language as you were talking with other people about the struggles of moving inclusive education forward in your neck of the woods. Okay. Number two, I also wanna bring up the idea that inclusive education means 100% of students with disabilities, uh, have to be included in general education classrooms a hundred percent of the time no matter what.

And what I mean by that is kind of what Aaron said, this drop and pray method where it's like, you know, we're just going to hope that it works. Hope that when we combine students with and without disabilities, that somehow magically it will all work. Well, of course that won't work. And no serious inclusion advocate is advocating for that.

Anyone who is authentically and passionately advocating for inclusive education means with support. Even then, when you are fully supporting educators and students. There may be students that we have not figured out how to include authentically and have them experience belonging, and so we're gonna have to figure that out.

But it doesn't mean that we stop trying, and it doesn't mean that we don't aim for a hundred percent all the time. Well, we get there. We might not, but it's important that the mindset is that we are moving towards that goal. Okay, number three, this idea that we can't move forward with inclusive education or inclusive practices unless it's perfect or unless it's the absolute right way.

I want authentic change for our school systems. I also want teachers to feel supported and equipped to teach learners with disabilities, especially learners with extensive support needs that doesn't happen overnight. And so when I hear about school systems that are saying yes to inclusion and have goals that are going to be very difficult to reach in the short term, I worry that we aren't setting up those systems for success.

And I understand that there is a sense of urgency, but I would rather us have a sense of urgency about doing things in an authentic and meaningful way on the path toward inclusive education. And that is why organizations like MCIE and others exist to be a partner with you to move things forward. So that leads me into my first call to action.

If you are a school leader and you are just thinking to yourself, I want to move inclusive practices forward, I want to start dismantling some of these segregated disabilities specific programs we have, I want to provide an excellent education for all learners in my school or district, then please reach out and have a conversation with us.

It doesn't cost anything to have a conversation, and even if it's just us pointing to you to some resources or even to another organization that may be closer to you in geography or more aligned with what you're doing, then we would still love to have a conversation with you. So call to action number one is email us.

mci@mci.org. You can also email me tga@mci.org or use the contact form on our website@mci.org. Alright, call to action number two is to make sure you check out Aaron Le news website air.com, uh, to find out what kinds of services he can provide as an inclusive education consultant. Okay. That's it for this episode of Think Inclusive.

It's time for the credits. Think Inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed, and mastered by me, Tim Viegas and is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, original Music by Miles Reich. Additional music from Melody, thank you to our incredible sponsor for this season. IXL. Learn more at I xl.com/inclusive.

Did you love this episode? Please tell us by either emailing me@tvaagusatci.org or find us on the socials. And send us a message, uh, either on Instagram or Facebook or, or even on X. So you can always do that too. Thank you so much for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works. Go Dodgers.