Jeiri Flores wcap
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Jeiri Flores: One big piece is that a lot of people don't view us as human. And so a lot of opportunities we, we don't get, right? 'cause we just don't get to be human. We just don't get to be celebrated in any space, right? I can't just wake up one morning and be like, ah, this is just what it is like today. I think for me, one of the harder parts as I age is kind of aging, but also witnessing how much people don't view me as a human right, who don't view me as part of their tribe, as part of like this connective piece of society.

It, it just becomes complicated and then also everything else in life is really hard. Right? Navigating these services, navigating Medicaid. Having to think about all of these extra worries that I feel like people my age aren't even thinking about. Right? I could never not have health insurance. I always have to worry about, well, you know, if I pursue this job, will it have enough benefits to cover whatever Medicaid might not cover?

Or will I make too much and I lose access to Medicaid? Like so there's always that constant worry for me. And then I think that there's a constant like undermining buzz of like self-segregation, right? Like of do I really want to work this hard to fit myself into that space that everybody is just living in, that it's just a theme of what life is going on right now, but I know it's not gonna be comfortable for me.

Tim Villegas: Hi friends. It's Tim Villegas. This is Think Inclusive. And who you just heard was Jeiri Flores, a Puerto Rican disability rights activist from Rochester, New York. She earned her bachelor's degree in the study of sociology and African-American studies. At SUNY Brockport in 2014, her master's is in the study of human development at the University of Rochester.

Jeiri serves as a resource for residents in her community by connecting them to existing services and supports As a disability advocate, Jeiri shares her unique perspective at various colleges and conferences where she introduces attendees to the struggles and invisibility that people with disabilities face.

She provides insight regarding inclusion, citizenship, disability, intersectionality, and challenges that remain unaddressed by society. She hopes to influence young, disabled people to fulfill their purpose and create a new narrative for what it means to be disabled. Thanks so much for being here with us today.

We appreciate each and every one of you. Listening to or watching Think Inclusive. MCIE's podcast that brings you conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. And while you're here, make sure to hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you are so that you can keep getting think inclusive in your feed.

In this episode of Think Inclusive, Jeiri and I discuss our contrasting familial stories. Jeiri opens up about her advocacy journey, shedding light on the additional burdens faced by disabled individuals, particularly regarding societal expectations and access to services. Jeiri highlights the dehumanization and isolation often experienced by people with disabilities, and underscores the critical role of love and belonging in creating inclusive spaces.

We also delve into the power of storytelling as a tool for advocacy and personal connection. J. D shares their roots in spoken word poetry and emphasizes the importance of vulnerability in both art and advocacy. Before we get into my conversation with Jeiri, I wanna tell you about our sponsor for this season.

IXL. IXL is a fantastic all-in-one platform designed for K 12 education. It helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress seamlessly. Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources. Well, that's IXL. As students practice, IXL adapts to their individual needs, ensuring they're both supported and challenged.

Plus, each learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively address any knowledge gaps. Interested in learning more? Visit ixl.com/inclusive. That's ixl.com/inclusive. Alright, after a short break, we'll get into my conversation with Jeiri Flores. Catch you on the other side. Oh. In a quick production note, this episode is actually cut into two parts.

The first part was interrupted by some technical issues, so Jeiri and I had to reschedule and record another session.

Um, okay, so let me make sure I have your name right. It's Jeiri, right? 

Jeiri Flores: Yes. Jeiri spelled J-E-I-R-I. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. But it's like, so, but it's, it's pronounced like the J in the D. 

Jeiri Flores: Yeah, because it's in Spanish and you would roll your Rs. So it's really not a D sound, but in English it sounds like a D. So my name is Jeiri. Um, and so people, the easiest way to get folks to understand how to say it is to be like, oh, well just say Jeiri.

Tim Villegas: Okay. So you're, so, um, you have a la you're Latin background, so like, 

Jeiri Flores: yeah. Uh, we're, I happen to be Puerto Rican, you know. Um, okay. My parents are, uh, from Puerto Rico. I was born in Puerto Rico. Um, and so my dad, I was named after one of my aunts, whose name is Jie, but her name starts with a Y. Ah, and my dad wanted to be a little extra spicy and he was like, I'll, I'll make a name for you.

And then he took some of the spelling from her name and added it to my name, and so it became Jeiri. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. Okay. Uh, yeah, so my family is from Mexico. Both both my mom and my dad. Um, my dad was born in Mexico. My mom was born in Los Angeles, but both sets of my grandparents are from Mexico, Jalisco. And, uh, um, well, I can't, I think of it.

It's uh, what's the state that is, um, Juarez is in, 

Jeiri Flores: I don't wanna lie to you. I don't know. I don't know. My best friend is from Vera Cruz. That's all I know. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry dad. I mean, you 

Jeiri Flores: gave him his Mexican car, you said he was from Mexico. 

Tim Villegas: He is from Mexico Promise Scouts honor. Um, why was I, oh, the reason I said that is because, okay, so my parents did not teach me Spanish.

Jeiri Flores: Oh, no. You're, you're no sabo kid. That's so sad. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, um, yeah, my parents did not like, actively teach me Spanish. In fact, they use Spanish as a way to communicate without me understanding them. 

Jeiri Flores: Oh, no. That was so American. To them, what is wrong? That is such a colonizer like behavior.

Tim Villegas: And I know, I know. Um, and what's really interesting is like I worked in the public schools for 16 years, right? And so whether it was in California or in Georgia, where I live now, everyone assumes I speak Spanish. Yeah, you look it, it's like hella embarrassing. It really is. 

Jeiri Flores: Yeah, because you do look like it, like you would be, I'm gonna be honest, you would be somebody I'd roll up on and be like, Hey, como esta.

And then I'd go in and then you'd look at me like, 

Tim Villegas: I'd be like, lo siento, 

Jeiri Flores: you have, I had one job and I dropped the ball. My bad, Jeiri. Oh, 

Tim Villegas: I do feel embarrassed though. Like, I honestly, it's like a, it's a little bit shameful. Uh, I've been trying, I try not to let it bother me, but I, uh, I gotta be honest, you know, 

Jeiri Flores: I, I get that though because it's such an integral piece of who I am.

You know, it's such a piece of like, I. I feel like it's like a piece of resistance of, in a, in a way, right? Because wow, it's not our native tongue, right? Because obviously the colonizers are who impose Spanish upon us. But I think that once you take it and you start owning it, right? It, it gives, it's a unifier of sorts.

Yeah. And it also just gives you a piece of home wherever you're at. Um, and so I get it. I, it's a little frustrating to not be able to commiserate with other folks in this one piece that we all get to share. Um, that is so, it's such a access creator, right? Like me knowing Spanish creates access to so many other people because, um, the way I was raised is I don't mind translating for just anybody, right?

Like, if I just gotta pop in and, and say whatever I need to say. And, and even if we're at like, the grocery store and you struggling, like I'm happy to pop in and just be like, Hey, like, I understand. Can I help you? And, and most folks are super grateful, um, and, and are welcoming to them. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. I, and I, I, I wish, you know, I guess there's, there's also a part of me that was like, well, I guess I could have, like, I'm, you know, I'm 46, so like, there's still time, you know, for 

Jeiri Flores: sure.

I, there's, there's time for sure. And I think there's lots of people who are willing to, you know, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of Theas and Theos out there who would sit with you. I mean, they're gonna be mean about some things just 'cause that's in the nature of, of our folks. But I think there are lots of folks who would be willing to just kind of drop little bombs of knowledge on you.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. So this is how 

Jeiri Flores: it is so that we can get just enough. 

Tim Villegas: My dad's mom, my abita on my, yeah, my dad's dad's side, uh, she like refused to speak English, refused. And so whenever I came over to visit, she would always like. Talk to me in Spanish. Like I knew what she was saying. 

Jeiri Flores: It's so funny 'cause I feel like my mom does that with my nieces and nephews.

Like they just gonna have to figure it out like she's. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. And 

Jeiri Flores: then when they don't understand and she doesn't understand, and they're both flustered, she's like, this is why your parents is bad, because they shouldn't taught you. Yeah. 

Tim Villegas: Basically. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. I think she would like turn to my dad and be like, you know, 

Jeiri Flores: like, you had one job.

You had one job. If you keeping them alive and teaching them Spanish and you drop the ball. 

Tim Villegas: Oh man. Oh man. Uh, good. Thanks for letting, uh, me get that off my chest. I guess I, I need that time. No, I, I 

Jeiri Flores: respect that. I, I think that we are each other's business, so it's my job to take care of you as much as it is, is your job to take care of me.

Tim Villegas: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, well, uh, Jeiri and I met at the AUCD Leadership Conference in Atlanta, uh, this year. So we're recording this, uh, the end, near the end of 2024. Um. And it was amazing to meet you and to hear your story. Um, I'm wondering if, if you could tell our audience, which is mostly educators, like a lot of, a lot of like K 12 educators listen to this podcast.

There's a lot of crossover between like, uh, teachers and then also teachers who are parents of children with disabilities. So like, um, I just, I, I wanted to know from your perspective, like what do, like, what do non-disabled people need to know about like just living a life as a per, as a disabled person?

Jeiri Flores: That's such a heavy question. That's a big question. It's a big question. Yeah. I know. It's such a heavy question because like, we can look at it from so many different angles, really. Um, one big piece is that a lot of people don't view us as human. And so a lot of opportunities we, we don't get right, because we just don't get to be human.

We just don't get, um, to be celebrated in any space, right? I can't just wake up one morning and be like, ah, this is just what it is like today. Um, and then, and just kind of state the day by. Um, I think for me, one of the harder parts as I age is kind of aging, but also witnessing how much people don't view me as a human, right.

Who don't view me as part of their tribe, as part of like this connective piece of society. Um, it, it just becomes complicated. And then also everything else in life is really hard, right? Navigating services, navigating Medicaid, having to think about. All of these extra worries that I feel like people my age aren't even thinking about.

Right? They're people my age who don't even have health insurance. And in my mind, and not that that's a good way to live, right? But realistically, like I could never live like that. I could never not have health insurance. I always have to worry about, well, you know, if I pursue this job, will it have enough benefits to cover whatever Medicaid might not cover?

Or, well, I make too much and I lose access to Medicaid. Like, so there's always that constant worry for me. Um, and then I think that there's a constant like undermining buzz of like self-segregation, right? Like of do I really want to work this hard to fit myself into that space that everybody is just living in?

Um, that it's just a theme of what life is going on right now, but I know it's not gonna be comfortable for me. Right? And so like, yeah. Yeah. One of the examples I can give you right, is I'm in my. Early thirties, and at this stage, a lot of folks in my life, like my friends, you know, are either partnered off getting married or having babies.

You know, like that's just what's happening for them. That's what happens at this time and age. But that's not what's happening for me, right? Like a lot of people don't view me as a partner, like a, like a, a sexual partner or even just a partner in general, right? Someone to be with. And so if my, if our parents all get together, right?

Like my mom doesn't have anything to input in like, in that kind of conversation, right? She can't say, oh, well, you know, Jeiri brought such and such home and this is what it was like when she did. And you know, this is where we're at. My best friend just had a baby. Her baby just turned one. And there were so many conversations about parenthood that happened around this, like while she was pregnant.

And I felt like, damn, I'm not pregnant. Why do I have to sit? And listen to these kind of talks, right? This isn't my reality, right? I'm not at the stage where I'm becoming a parent, but you know, it does create this space where my parents are also looking at like, all right, so is it gonna be our turn? Is this something you're into?

Is it something you're considering? Um, and it doesn't matter if I'm considering it, if no one else is viewing me as a partner, if no one else is viewing me as someone who can be someone to have a baby with. And so it's, um, you know, it's, it's hard and it's uncomfortable. And then you gotta have all these extra conversations about saying, listen, although nobody views me as a partner, although like, this is not what's happening for me.

Like, this is where I am in life. Like, you know, so I feel like I'm in a constant battle space of like. Not, I don't wanna say proving my worth 'cause that feels uncomfortable. I don't think it's that deep, but like proving that, you know, I am enough. Um, and I have to remind myself, I have to work really hard at reminding myself that I'm enough.

That even if I don't, and this could just be also an issue because it's a hot topic for women without children right now too, right? Because of the pending election, um, that I'm Enough, just me. Mm-hmm. Right? That I'm enough with what I'm doing, enough with the roles that I play for folks. Um, you know, that maybe being a mom isn't for me.

Maybe being a wife isn't something that is in the cards for me and that is okay. You know what I mean? Like, I don't feel unfulfilled because I'm not in those spaces. I only feel uncomfortable about it when all of these other conversations around me are happening and I need to remind you. Like, listen, I'm human and my experience is just a little bit different.

And I don't know if that really like highlights a lot of what you're asking, but, um, that's what I about constantly. 

Tim Villegas: Uh, no. Thank you for that. Uh, there's a couple of things I, I wanna, uh, unpack because you said something about, you know, not knowing if you wanna self-segregate and, uh, I hear this sometimes when we talk about, uh, public schools and classrooms, and one of the, one of the arguments, um, for separate classrooms, um, for students who have like more significant disabilities, maybe it's, uh, you know, multiple disabilities, maybe it's intellectual disabilities, you know, or, or maybe there's like health, health, health related issues that take a lot of time to address in a school setting.

Um, one of the arguments is I. Well, you know, my, my student, my child, uh, doesn't feel safe or wanted in a regular classroom. And these separate classrooms provide a safe environment, um, for them to, to feel like they belong or wanted. And so, um, I'm in no way like advocating for segregated classrooms. But, but what I am kind of trying to unpack here is this idea of you or anyone else not feeling wanted in a space that is made for quote unquote everyone else, right?

And so what do we do about that? 

Jeiri Flores: I mean, I think sometimes this is gonna sound so cheesy, but sometimes the answer really gives love. I think that like, really, like those spaces that I have felt the most welcomed in are the spaces that I am openly loved in, right? And so I need you to acknowledge me as a being, but also acknowledge my experiences, acknowledge, you know, my difference, like all of it in a tasteful way, that I don't have to do all the work.

Um, I think the hard part for a lot of folks with disabilities is that we don't get to just be right. We don't get to just show up anywhere and just be, there's always all this proactive work that we have to do, um, because everyone always wants to force us to behave in a certain way. And I think that that's when we become disruptors is when people are like, oh no, we gotta get him outta here, right?

Like, this person is self-soothing because they're rocking. So, but they can't rock because the other kids don't. So we gotta get him outta here. That's not, that's not cool because realistically, like if someone is self-soothing, if it's not making noise, if it's not disrupting the, the, the, the class. Why does it matter, right?

Why can't we just be welcoming to like, this is what you need. Um, and we do do this already for certain folks, right? Like, I think a, a real easy, like, I don't like to say no hanging fruit because I don't like the connotation to it, but something that's really simple that we've learned to do, that we've changed the way we do businesses.

We ask people their pronouns now, right? Like we ask them their pronouns. Hey, what is your pronoun? How do you like to be addressed? Right? Real simple, real different. Not, not different. Real simple, easy change because we wanna be welcoming to who you are, who you feel, and your soul you are, right? So my guy kid is non-binary, right?

It takes me, but three times to tell someone, Hey, listen, my baby over here is a they, right? And so that's what you, that's my expectation that you respect them as a, they. Like, that's what we're talking about. And you move along, right? And then now we're at a place where everyone asks. So we don't even wonder anymore.

We just ask. What are your pronouns? And then as you eat, and my God kid also has a different name, right? They don't li they, they like to be called Alex. I'm not sure why. That's also not my business. But if that's what you want, then that's what we do, right? So there are pieces in society that we have learned to shift and change our thinking, um, to open up and to love people, you know, as they come.

I think it could be easy in other ways, right? So for me, some, what that looks like sometimes is if we go to the restaurant and the, let's say the waitress has preselected my spot, right? That's not something I enjoy. I, it irritates me. I don't know why, but don't tell me where to be, right? Like, it's just something that pisses me off.

But what my friends have learned how to do is that they'll stand at the table and they'll say, oh, where do you wanna sit? Right. So it doesn't matter that the waitress pulled the chair out to this one spot. They asked out loud, where do you wanna sit? They set the precedent that I get to choose where I place my body.

So that's just a shift that happened amongst us that I announced. I don't like when people tell me where to pre sit. I don't. I don't like it. Don't tell me where to be. And so if we changed that amongst us, you know, all of my friends, we all happen to be women of color. One, one conscious decision that we choose to do.

We don't describe each other as aggressive, right? Even if our behavior may seem aggressive, we actively choose to use different verbiage to describe ourselves to each other. Because we understand that if someone walks past us and hears us addressing each other in this way, then we further feed into right, the stereotypes of women of color.

So we say, oh look, you being real passionate today, right? And so, but these are shifts and changes that we did ourselves so that we can openly. Be welcoming and loving to each other, right? Because we don't want, I would have beef with you if you came up to me and was like, why are your best friend so aggressive?

Excuse you? Like, what, what are you talking about? Right? So we just had to be conscious about that. And I think there are spaces where we do it. And then when it comes for people with disabilities, we always fall short because the expectation is that we have to fold and fit and change everything about us so that we can fit in what like society has deemed as acceptable.

And that's just, that's not fair, that's not loving, that's not a place where I can come in and just feel super welcome, um, and super celebrated and also thrive in, right? I thrive in those spaces where I'm just allowed to be, um mm-hmm. And I don't have to work hard and really have to prep myself to like deal with all my baggage before I enter.

Um, because if I have an emotional outburst, or let's say I. So one of the things that happens to me fairly, I might hit something in my chair, not on purpose. It just is like, maybe I'd engage the space right now. It's not this whole weird ordeal.

So I just, I think that really, I hate that it's so simple, but I really think if you were to lead with love, that really would change a lot of how we do business. 

Tim Villegas: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and there is a certain amount of privilege that happens in, in spaces where like, it's just, mm, the, how do I say this? Um, let, let's just say in a classroom where usually there aren't, uh, disabled individuals, like, especially with like, um, you know, an intellectual disability or multiple disabilities, right?

Um, and if you're in a, in a space, let's say a classroom, um, and it's just typical for, you know, a certain kind of person to be in that space, then there's privilege in that, right? There's like, um, because it's, it, that's just, that's the norm. That's, that's it's normed for that classroom. Um, and you don't have to work as hard or think as hard because you automatically already fit in.

But for those, um, especially when we're talking about, uh, disabled students who are, uh, you know, included and maybe historically haven't been, um, that's a lot of pressure. Sure. It's what I'm hearing for sure, and I'm, I'm trying to make that parallel. There's, there's a lot of pressure. 

Jeiri Flores: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that it, it's also harmful, right?

Because you work so hard at like making sure that you are as prim and proper as you can be, so that you are comfortable in these places for other pe not you yourself, but so that other people are comfortable, right? So like a lot of folks in the autism space, they call this masking. There's everybody masked, right?

Like, it doesn't matter in, in terms of disability, everybody's masking in one shape, way, or form. This is why ableism has been able to kind of be fed and kind of thrive in the existence within the education system because the idea is that. You will like basically fall into whatever the status quo is, right?

So we learned, we all raise our hands when we talk. We all, you know, follow the line leader. We all like, we, there's all these practices and procedures that you have to follow. Um, but if you're a little bit different, then that might be hard for you. Right? My right foot leans, right. Like it does not, if I was to be a walker, it would ne I would never be able to walk straight, right?

Because my right foot, like is, is just, it just leans, right? It's just how my body naturally developed. But I can tell you that I was expected to work really hard at figuring how out how to walk as. Straight as I possibly could. Right? Or, you know, if I sat somewhere, sit up straight, you know, make sure you don't make a lot of noise, whatever, all these different things, like they were expectations of me that I had to do.

And that's where it becomes harmful because now my body in my early thirties is exhausted because for so long I had to push myself to really fit in and, and hit all the same marks that my non-disabled counterparts were hitting because that was the expectation, even though I, I had to work harder at it.

Tim Villegas: We are gonna do this, uh. Jeiri, I do not remember what we talked about before. Do you? 

Jeiri Flores: Um, I, we talked about you not speaking Spanish. Um, 'cause you're, you Novo kid. Um,

Tim Villegas: um, I just snorted on my mic by, by the way. That's, I like to hear that. Yeah. 

Jeiri Flores: I don't remember what else. Um, we were talking about something about disability, but I don't know. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah, yeah. I know it's just been, uh, I don't know about you, but it's been a month and some change. 

Jeiri Flores: I feel like it's been a year, like since the election.

It's been a year. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause we talked pre-election, so. Yeah. 

Jeiri Flores: Yeah. I feel like so much is up in the air and so much is, uh, it's just a scary time. So everything feels like it's moving so fast, but so slow at the same time. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know who I saw today, um, mark Crenshaw. 

Jeiri Flores: I just talked to him. Um, he, for leadership, we're planning and propping.

Mm-hmm. I don't ever know if I'm getting invited back. You know, it's, uh, working in the advocacy spaces, you never know, like when you are good, when you're not, you know, because, uh, obviously like in front of you, everyone tells you like, that was beautiful. That wasn't amazing. And then you might not get invited back.

And so, uh, you can never tell. So I never know, you know, when I'm a hit or when I'm a miss. 

Tim Villegas: Um, that's interesting. Um, I, I remember that. I, I think this relates to what you're talking about. Um, I remember what I wanted to ask you last time. Um, so I ended up watching one of, at least one of your comedy, um, 

Jeiri Flores: oh yes.

Tim Villegas: Your comedy, uh, I guess. What do you call it? Gigs. 

Jeiri Flores: It was, it was actually not meant to be funny. Um, 

Tim Villegas: really? 

Jeiri Flores: It was. No, it, 

Tim Villegas: okay. Tell me more about that. 

Jeiri Flores: People tell me I'm funny all the time. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. 

Jeiri Flores: Um, and I always tell folks like, I don't know if you're laughing with me or if you're laughing at me. Um, and I very much don't understand that I am super dramatic.

So a lot of what I talk about just sounds like a lot and it just like, is naturally funny. Um, so that was a storytellings event and you, they wanted you to tell a story of your like, holiday. Um, 

Tim Villegas: okay. 

Jeiri Flores: It was so funny 'cause it was the first time, like I was coached. I had never been coached before. Um, it was the first time someone was like, oh, we want you to write your speech down.

I'm not really a good prepper. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm the kind of person, like, let me just show up and do my thing. And I have faith in the universe that it's gonna carry me through. I always just think I'm gonna be okay. Um, but they had me write this whole script down and then the coach was like, I don't like it.

It's messing with your cadence. You need to, uh, not do that. So we're just gonna have you show up and you tell it. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, I'll just show up. Um, but they had wanted me to pick like my favorite holiday, and I was like, I don't really have a favorite holiday. I was like, I don't know. But I had been calling my mom my favorite holiday for years.

Like, like this has been something that I have always called her because to me, my mom is so magical. Um, and that's to make her seem larger than life, but she just, you know, she just makes things happen. And so when they're like, oh yeah, you know, so then I'm like, can I tell it this way instead of you like forcing me to pick a, a time that like I'll be lying.

And I'm like, yeah, tell it. And so when I did it and people laughed, I was like, oh, I didn't. I didn't think I was funny. Like I didn't, you know, like I know when I'm giving like a lecture or a speech when it hits 'cause people hum and, and people kind of nod their heads. So you can kind of tell and you feel the vibe in the room.

But like, when people laugh, I always feel like, all right, they laughing at me. Like they're not necessarily laughing with me. And most often the crowds happen to be white. And so like, you know, culturally, like I know we not vibing in the same space, so I just be like, yeah, I don't know. But my friends, when I tell folks all the time is that people at home don't laugh, right?

So I don't think I'm funny because people who, like I live with, they don't really laugh this much. Like, I'm not this funny to them, but people laugh all the time and then it was 'cause they see you all the time. I was like, I, I don't know if that's true, but yeah. But that was one of my, it really came together, but it was also something really outside of the norm for me.

Um, because again, I had never been coached. I had never been like directed. In this way. I think I went as a sophomore in, in high school. She woke up Thanksgiving morning and said, I don't wanna have Thanksgiving here. Thanksgiving at Rochester is boring. I don't wanna do that. I don't want people to come to my house.

I don't wanna clean up my house. I don't do any of those things. That doesn't sound fun. My aunt had just moved to Kentucky the, the previous year before. So she says, we're gonna go to Kentucky. That's it. Let's go pack a bag. So not only did we pack a bag, but we packed the groceries. Um, the Turkey, the fixings, everything.

She stole my father's whole Thanksgiving dinner. She put it in a, in a cooler in her minivan in the trunk. And she said, we are gonna go. Did she call him and let him know? No, he, he did know my. So he expects like Thanksgiving dinner to be ready when he comes home from the tree trunks that he's standing in all day.

He never catches anything either. Like we all laugh every year because it's like he spends all these money on bullets that he doesn't kill any deer. Like none. We call him in the middle of the day. Hey dad, you caught a beer yet? No, not yet. I shot a couple shots. I missed it though. So she, he's expecting to come home and, and Thanksgiving dinner to be there.

Um, but it's not that year because, uh, my mom and her younger sister, who was like my big sister, um, decided to go to Kentucky. So nine hours later in an awkward phone call to my dad, she's like, Hey, guess what? You gotta go to dinner with your boss because we are not home and there is no Turkey for you because we have the Turkey.

And I asked her, I said, why did you take the Turkey? She said, what if we got there too late and couldn't go shopping? Then we wouldn't have had dinner so he could find it. It was a lot more of us than there was of him. He was one, there's eight of us. So we stole Thanksgiving dinner and she kidnapped his children because she also took us.

And so we were in Kentucky and sent pictures to him like, Hey look, we got the Turkey. It's here. And also, you know what I forgot to tell in practice is that he actually prepared it. Like he mar it was marinating. So it was like he put it at work too, and he just never got to taste it. And so that's my mom, Leslie, she just decides things.

Tim Villegas: I like where this discussion is going about storytelling. 'cause it's something that I've been thinking a lot about. Um, and especially around like advocacy. Uh, and so let's start here. Um, it, it feels like storytelling is, comes natural to you. 

Jeiri Flores: Yes. 

Tim Villegas: So how. Uh, is that just part of your personality or do you, did, did, did you kind of, um, grow into that intentionally with, with some skills that you learned?

Or how did that happen? 

Jeiri Flores: Um, I was a poet. Okay. When I was, uh, growing up as a teenager, like one of the ways that I kind of coped with like everyday life, um, I got into spoken word. And, um, one of the reasons why I love spoken word is because while there are some poems who have rules, really, you as the writer, you're, you write, you make the rules, right?

Uh, now I'm not telling you that I wrote haikus because I'd be lying to you, right? Like, I like the free form of poetry, um, and the space to just kind of, you know, share your, your vulnerability or whatever. Um, and I grew in that space, right? And so I really wrote for a really long time. And then when I grew into this advocacy space.

I just took the analogies and the metaphors that I would write, you know, in my poems, and I would kind of throw them into stories. Mm-hmm. Um, and so then it grew organically from there. So I don't write as much now unless like I have a muse. Right. Unless something happens. Um, and then I'm inspired to write, but, uh, I do speak in a lot like a metaphors.

I do create a lot of comparisons. Um, and then I'm just a firm believer in conversation. Right. I, I really think that a conversation can change something. Um, and so it grew from that, but I would give it all up to like me being a poet and that's what kind of gave me the skills, um, to do it because it's also where I learned that I could be super vulnerable if I wanted to be.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so I'm not saying that I'm vulnerable in all spaces, but I think that that's really what kind of opened the door for me, um, 

Tim Villegas: to do it. Um, uh, it, it sounds like you are, are a really creative person, and so as, as someone who, um, I think I am owning that more about, about being like a creative, um, I've noticed this about myself, that, that it is easier to be vulnerable in art than it is in like one-on-one conversation.

Is that true for you? 

Jeiri Flores: Um, it depends on who I'm talking to. I'll be honest. I think that when you're an advocate, like it require like to be a true, genuine like advocate, I think you have to be vulnerable. I think you have to have that layer of like. Re being ready and willing to be vulnerable, I think the most effective advocates are, right.

If you think of like the biggest, like the most life changing advocates, they're the ones who shared the most with the, about themselves with you. Mm. Um, you know, and they were the most vulnerable in front of you. Right? Um, you know, when we saw Martin Luther King Half Step, when we saw about the mix Half Step, like they were vulnerable in that, to share that.

I mean, obviously their vulnerability looked different 'cause they were men. But even if we think of women, right? Like if we think of like Maya Angelou, like she was super vulnerable in every space that she presented herself in, um, when she was sharing. So I think that if you are in the advocacy space, that is something you have to wear if you truly want to make a difference.

I think that we, we see advocates who are not willing to be vulnerable or who like limit like their vulnerability in pockets. I don't think they're as effective. 'cause I think something that makes you, I. Um, a really good advocate is your ability to connect with folks. So I think even one-on-one, sometimes it requires you to share a little more, right?

Depending on what you wanna do with the conversation. Um, for me, in particularly because it's this disability space, a lot of times I'm talking to parents, um, and parents sometimes need that, um, the extra umph, the extra feel, um, because they don't, um, you know, I might look at their child differently than someone else, or I might like look at the story they told in a different light because of the way my life was lived.

Now I'm not trying to pretend like I'm the greatest, but I think that, um, one-on-one conversations, depending on the space you're in, require that, um. From you if you really wanna make a difference, um, as an advocate. I think in art it is so easy to be vulnerable because it's a unfor, it's a forgiving place, right?

Like you can be vulnerable and no one is gonna like, be like, oh, that was wrong, right? Like, this is such a space for you to grow. There's so much grace within being a creative, um, and there's so much room where people are like trying to process and understand your thinking, right? Like when we look at 3D Art, I'm like, oh, well why did he throw the bird in there?

The bird didn't have nothing to do with that weird, you know, factory that he painted. Or, you know, when we're looking at videos that are put together with why did that all of a sudden become black and white? Like, you know, like, but well, we're giving so much grace and space for folks expression, um, that I think it's so much more forgiving.

Um, and so it, it, it it's the prime space to be vulnerable. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. I, I, I didn't think about that. The, the different context of v vulnerability in art versus advocacy. Um, it kind of bleeds together. Um, and what else was I thinking about that? I think when it's like, um, it's like with art, you can be, you can be expressive, right?

And you can kind of do really strange and weird things and have this self-acceptance too. Uh, whereas in advocacy, it, at least for me, it's harder, it's harder to have that self-acceptance because the stakes are higher. So I. You know, like if no one likes that song I wrote, it's fine. You know, or the, the painting I did or the poem or whatever.

Um, but when I'm, when I really have passion behind like an idea, you know, like inclusion, you know, or disability rights, um, somebody could be like, you're wrong. Right? And that is different. That feels different 

Jeiri Flores: for sure. And I think that one of the things in advocacy, um, is that when that happens, like there is such a, a, like a bigger space for discourse, right?

Like versus like if we were comparing it to art, right? Like. I present something to you, right? And then like you can accept it or you cannot, and we can move on to the next piece. I think in advocacy, because it's supposed to be like a, a lot of people think that like, this is just like a concept. No, it, this is a living, breathing thing, right?

And so because it's living and breathing, I can control how it lives and breathes, right? I can just control what my role is. Um, and so I think I've had to give up those big dreams of like large forms of change that I can just create on my own, right? Because that's where I think we get kind of caught up.

And that's why I think I, I waste so much on like a conversation one-on-one. Um, because you're right, like in a bigger space, like if I'm okay, Medicaid cuts, right? If I'm doing advocacy work for Medicaid cuts, right? Like it, like my idea, it, it has to be like almost just right in order for it to the just right desk to hit the just right person so that it could continue to grow in that.

But if I live stuck in that, like you wanting to do these big A, like big a when, I mean like big advocacy changes, it's too much. And I think that that's when it gets scary and that's when it, like, you don't wanna be as wonderful because why would I present this if I don't, the measure of success is so small, like, how could I even get there?

And so I, I, that's why I weigh again, like so much on one conversation. 'cause sometimes it's not really that, like for me, realistically, I've done a lot. Like, I would say that my catalog is big, but at the same time, can I tell you that I've changed like huge systems? Probably not. Right? Like, I can't, yeah. I, I, I can't, you know, gauge that.

Um, but I know that I have changed some students. I know that I have changed the way some doctors think. I'm like, I just know that from other conversations that I have with other people or just the way as I've seen changes in those, in some folks. Um, so I have to look at it that way. And I think that that's what kind of helps me stay in a place of, of.

Vulnerability. The hard part is, is that there is a lot of overp pouring and people don't understand that in this advocacy space, like there is a lot of overp pouring. This is something that like, you know, some stories don't hurt some stories I could just say at the top of my head and, and not even think about it.

And it, yes, I'm still being vulnerable, but it doesn't hurt anymore to talk about. But then there's other stories where it's just like, no, that's really hard to talk about. And yes, I'll bring it up, but, um, I also need you like, as the other human who was on the other end of receiving it, to be conscious of, you know, the effort that I'm putting in so that you can understand, you know, what I'm trying to do now.

I don't know if I'm rambling or if it's going too far back. No, 

Tim Villegas: no, no. I like this. I like this because yeah, I, I, I, I like this deeper conversation about storytelling because, um, it does require energy, right? And as advocates, uh, sometimes our energy is low. I. Like the baseline is low. So, um, for sure 

Jeiri Flores: it's really hard to like, especially particular stories.

All right. Like, you know, for me, uh, I like to think that like, my life lives in seasons. Everybody's life lives in seasons. Actually, that's not just me, but my advocacy work also lives in seasons, right? So there are some seasons where, you know, the, the ta the, the theme feels so much heavier. Like when I first started talking about my womanhood, like that was so heavy for me.

Um, because I don't feel welcomed by other women a lot, you know? And I don't, um, feel like when people think of womanhood, they think of me and, and in that space and what that looks like for me. And so. That feels real heavy. And then, you know, even sitting with other women and talking about what my womanhood looks like or what my experience as a woman is like, it's like I'm working so much harder, you know, to be included in this one space.

It's supposed to naturally be just welcoming to me. Um, and so when that became like one of the central focuses of my advocacy, um, it was so much because then I was also going through some things with my health in relation to my womanhood. And so it was just like, like just building one thing after the other on top of it.

And then having to explain, you know, to other women who are preaching that they love women who are gals, gals, it's like, but you're really not a gals gal to me. Mm-hmm. Right. And so. Um, that's when it's heavy. That's when it's like, all right, I'm being super vulnerable. Um, because I promise you, like three years ago I would've talked about this.

This would've been just something, you know, that like Yeah. On the top, you know, I might've said like something small about it and been like, oh, this is a problem. You know, we should probably think about that, you know, in the future. But I probably wouldn't have talked about it in death because I didn't think that, you know, people cared or that, um, I was willing to share enough about it.

Um, but it's a weight that you are, you're, you're sharing, you're talking about. Um, and it's not like trauma dumping, but it is sometimes traumatic, right? There are some things that happen, um, and a lot of folks in disability spaces, right? We piss on pity. We don't want pity, but like, the story is sad. So like, sometimes it also just elicits that like it's just a human response.

So it's like such a fine line to, to roll or to walk, um, in between those spaces. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yes. Um, is there a story that you, it's like your favorite to tell? 

Jeiri Flores: Um, I think, yeah, I, I, when people ask me like, how did I grow into this advocacy thing, it started because I was translating for my mom. Um, because this random translator, he just, he, he, my mom said something and he translated for her and it wasn't what she said.

And then like, in that moment I was like 10 years old, but in that moment I was like, this is not gonna happen to us again. Right? Like, it was like a whole shift for me. Um, and I think that that's one of my favorite stories to tell. 'cause it was like when like, your kind of, your superpowers get turned on, like, yes, alright, boom.

Like this is it. Like, um, and it just, 'cause I can't even tell you like how I became an advocate or why this is my, like, how this became my job or how this became just something that I'm good at. I, I can't because this, I studied sociology, like that's what I got my undergrad degree in in high school. I was even surprised I made it to college, to be honest with you.

Not because I wasn't a good student, but just because I didn't have a, a path. Right. I didn't know. Right. Yeah. I just knew, I liked to talk trash, like I'm a trash talker. Like that's, I knew I could do that and so I, you know, but that is, you know, when I sit back and reflect in retrospect, like, you know what kind of set the tone for me, right?

My advocacy work didn't start in disability. It started because my mom happened to be Puerto Rican. She happened to live in the States. She happened not to live, not to speak English. We happened to need a translator once, and you know, from then on, I, you know, when they didn't say what my mom said, I, in my mind I was like, I can't allow that to continue to live and happen.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. That must be, um, uh, it's like the, like what you said about finding your superpower, it's really, um, it's like magical, right? Um, I didn't real, like the whole reason I'm doing this, that this is my job, that part of like, my job is podcasting is because I, um, always wanted to do a podcast, you know, as a teacher.

I mean, actually growing, growing up and like learning how to use audio equipment because I was in like a, a band and like, you know, learning how to edit and all that stuff was just, I just thought that was gonna be a hobby. Like it was no big deal. Right? And then once I started to, to create and people responded to it, I was like, oh, okay.

Jeiri Flores: Because it feels like love. Right? It feels like real love. Like you're like, oh my God, I'm good. You think I'm good at that? 

Tim Villegas: Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so surprising. It's, uh, it's so surprising 'cause you just don't, like, I didn't see it coming. 

Jeiri Flores: No. I, it's so funny. I never think of this as a skill Right.

Until I see somebody do it bad 

Tim Villegas: and then I'm like, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so weird. And then I'm like, 

Jeiri Flores: I got, like, I really am good at this. Like I really, I put this together, like 

Tim Villegas: Yes. Yes. And, 

Jeiri Flores: you know, and it always happens that way. And I'm like, you know, especially when I, like when I really went at something, okay.

Like that night that when I told that story I was like, I'm this me. Like, I could do this for real. Yeah. Like, I, I, I do this. I can't, not just, I could do this, I do this, I do this, I'm good at this. Um, and it feels like such a win. Um, that you can't even, like, it kind of just washes over you. Like, you know, like, like little tickles.

Like, it just kind of comes over and you're like, oh my God, I'm really good at this and this is a skill and people need to stop fronting on me. Um, even if I don't have no haters in the crowd, in my mind I'm always like, people need to stop fronting on me because I could really, I put that together. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't, is it a, I I always thought this was like a personality thing. Um, so I don't know if it's, if it's like this for you, but, um, I always think whatever I'm doing is not good enough 

Jeiri Flores: for sure. I have to remind myself that I'm enough all the time. 

Tim Villegas: Mm-hmm. 

Jeiri Flores: That it's, is good enough or, you know, because I also like the creative space or the, when you have a role and as ambiguous as the one that I have, it's, um, it's hard to, how do I say?

Like, it's hard to be like, oh. Like, was that good? Because it has to be received well from someone else. Like I said, you know, I gotta do it good enough to be invited back to this class or do it well enough to be invited to present again. Like there's, I always have that and I always think like, I hope that I was like that.

I did you justice and whatever space you invite me in, I hope I did you justice. Um, because that is my intention. I don't, my intention is not for you to invite me into a space and then I, I like half-ass it and, and I don't. And you don't feel like I did enough. Um, but I can't, you know, it's hard to tell every time.

It's, I can't ever be like, oh, for sure. That was great. Um, you know, there's sometimes I leave and I'm like, that was not my best word and I don't know what I could have done different. Right. I don't leave that space thinking like, oh, I could have said this. I could have did this. No, I just know, like, I leave and I'm like, that wasn't my best work.

Um, but I, I don't know how I could have done different, or sometimes like the people think it was great, but I feel like I didn't do it, you know? Mm-hmm. And so then there's that. Yeah. Um. And they're in this, in this, particularly in the disability advocacy space, there's not a lot of people that look like me.

Right. And there's not a lot of people, um, you know, with my same intersections, um, the predominant voice happens to be white. It happens to be white women. Um, and so there's a lot of, like, sometimes I, you gotta be delicate in the way you say things. And when I get a little, like, let's say I get a little more passionate, I get a little more, you know, intense.

Mm-hmm. Um, I get nervous like, oh my God, did I become that angry woman of color in that space? And then I hate what, what happens? I become apologetic. Like, oh my bad. Like, I didn't mean to, to go this hard, but it just is like, I'm also human. And so I'm also living in that moment. So, you know, I'm also listening to, you know, this white woman who you're giving such huge platform to like say things that like.

Might not make sense or, or just might not be as good as what I think I'm saying or what someone else is saying, right? 'cause it's not always me, right? It's not always my voice that's saying something better. Sometimes it's another advocate of color who is saying something better and who just isn't highlighted in the same way.

So for, for me, in those spaces, I really have to sit back and, and really recognize that, no, no, I wasn't wrong. My delivery was different, but I wasn't wrong and I just need a, you know, a moment and I need to go where I'm loved. Um, so that I could like, get myself back on into my square. Like, no, you still good at this.

You're still like, you still should have been in that room. You still should have been at that table. Um, but it just may be, you gotta deliver it a little different because also this is a finicky state, right? Like, I could be, I always wanna be vulnerable and I always want to be like just super outspoken, but that also is problematic for women that look like me.

You know what I mean? Like, that's also not. We're not always celebrated for that. Like people like us because we do this, but we're not always celebrated for that. And then people, you know, become fearful. They don't trust what you're gonna say. So it's such a, it's like a catch 22, if you will. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, I know it's, it's like you don't wanna make excuses either, you know, but there's the reality of it, you know, that's just, um, like whose voices are valued and you're like, well, that person has a really big platform.

And then you look at like their characteristics and you're like, that makes sense. And I'm not, I'm not trying to call anybody out about any, so I'm being very vague. Right. I'm not 

Jeiri Flores: trying to pick any, you know, because we could pick a handful of folks, right? Like Sure. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. You know, there's, there's probably thousands of Michael Jordans out there, right?

Like, but yeah, yeah, yeah. We only know won Michael Jordan. Right? Like Michael Jordan didn't win all them championships by himself, but, you know, who do we know? We know Michael Jordan. You know, like, that's me. And I think that that's still the same premise. It, it just, it doesn't matter what arena we're talking about.

There always is a Michael Jordan, like, you know, like, and that, and it's hard and it, but once you see it, you're like, all right, I get it. I get why you get to be Mike. Like, but it's hard for someone who did all the same training caps as Mike, like played in all the, a AAU teams as Mike, like, you know, did all the things to not be at Mike's status.

It's like, okay, 

Tim Villegas: yeah, yeah. Like the degree of separation feels so small, but the, but. The outcomes are just super wide. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. 

Jeiri Flores: Like there's some advocates who get paid, Tim, no lie. Mm-hmm. Five, six Gs per like mm-hmm. Thing that they do. And I'll, they'll invite me in, offer to pay me a lot less that, and this is not about money, but if this is how we gauge who is good and who's not, right?

Yeah. Well, let's say they'll pay me a quarter maybe of what they paid this person, I'll work harder than the person that they paid more and I'll be better than the person that they paid more and they'll congratulate me and, and give me love, like after the event goes great. Um, but they will never offer me those numbers that they offered.

You know, the person who they think has a bigger platform than I, the person who they assume, you know. And so that's also when you start getting into the space, like, am I enough? Like why don't I, what, where is that? Like, where am I lacking? Um, and again, that, that is, is hard, but it doesn't change the way I tell stories and it doesn't change the way I decide the stories that I tell, or even the work that I do.

Um, yeah, it's just a little frustrating. It's, yeah. Um, because then like the worst thing is like, well, what is it? I, I think that's why I'm in therapy. Like, I'm just trying to process like what the 

Tim Villegas: worst thing I'm, I'm right there with you. I'm right there with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is, what is our worth?

And, and, uh, and like the, the, just a accepting oneself for who you are with your own stories, uh, is super important. Um. And I think like eventually it does become more effective. Like as you grow in yourself and like as you like, begin to, to really be your true self, your, I think your stories, um, are more effective.

It's just there's a lot of growth that needs to happen and, and stuff like that. And I, I want to connect it, like, I want to connect it to people who are listening, who are educators because this is a lot of how I felt when I was a teacher and going like, how do I convince people to change? Like, um, because facts don't always do it.

In fact, like, you know, like if you just give them facts, you need the, that's not what's gonna change people. 

Jeiri Flores: For sure. You need real life, right? Like when I, uh, one of my favorite things that I did, I used to work for the city of Rochester and one of my favorite things was, well, my best friends, we all happen to work in nonprofits.

Like, it just is what, it's kind of what happens to women of color. Like this is the spaces that we, because we ready to save the world. Like that's the problem. I'm not sure what part of our DNA was like, ooh, they gonna stay the world type. Like that's where we land. And I'm not saying that white people aren't in, are incapable of this.

I'm just saying that if you, statistically speaking, if you look a lot of women of color work in non-profit areas, a lot of women of color pursue degrees in helping professions. Like that's just the statistics, right? Mm-hmm. I don't have the exact number, but if the research is there, I promise. So my best friend at the time, she used to, uh, teach or.

Facilitate, I don't know, whatever you wanna call it, um, in a, in a trauma space for children. And in high school here at the city, uh, in the Rochester City school district. And I worked at the city and I was like fascinated by my job because I had never seen the city as an organization. I had never like been taught about the city as an organization, as a business.

I had never seen it in this way in my 20 something years ahead, living at the time, I had never been exposed to it in the way that I was at that job. And so I had city officials at my fingertips, right? If there was a real live issue, I could go into somebody's office and I could say, this is an issue. How do we change it?

How do we fix it? Who are the right people we talk to, whatever. Um, and, uh, I was blessed to work with this amazing woman who was always just ready, um, to invite people into the office to learn about the city, um, to, you know, work with her. And so we have here, we call it parcel five. This is like a huge green space.

It's, there used to be a mall in this space, so to, to give you a size idea. So it was huge. And what she was to do was have, uh, folks come into the office and she would say, what do you think should happen in that space? And she collected all this information, right? And she was gonna present it to the mayor so that, because they didn't know what to do, what to propose with this, with this parcel.

Um, and what was originally proposed was like an auditorium, but we have an auditorium already, right. And it just wouldn't make sense to move the, like, to put a new auditorium in the downtown of our city because we had a different auditorium where it was like surrounded by local restaurants. So the restaurant, it was like a whole ecosystem, right?

So the restaurants get a lot of business when there's plays in town because they all, like, they're codependent of each other. So to move the auditorium downtown, it would, it would change all of that. It would shift the, the, the, the workings in of it all. So she had all these people come in and they would either draw it, talk about it, all these things, right?

And so when I think of my best friends and I think of the kids that she works with, and I think of how limited the kids in our city were in terms of sharing their thoughts on changes on our city. I was like, what if we bring the kids to the office? What if the kids come and the kids tell us what they think should happen with Parcel five?

Um, and at first she got some pushback from the school 'cause they couldn't understand why we would wanna do this event. And in my mind I'm like, what do you mean? This is such a great thing? Like for the kids to meet city officials, for the kids to get their voices heard in this way, um, for their, for their work to be presented to the mayor.

Like, this all really feels like a good idea to me at least, right? Because, well, I'm not a, like a, a kid educator, but like as an educator, like you're teaching them direct local government how it works. So finally we get to the point where they're like, all right, well, how about if they come to us? So we, I bring my city official boss to the school, and this is one of like the roughest schools in our city.

So we're not talking about like one of the best testing schools. We're talking about rough, right? Like, these kids are barely making graduation, are barely making, you know, to finish. Um, and so I bring the city, uh, I bring our, my city official boss and her assistant. They come in and the kids, I promise you, they came up with some of the greatest ideas for what should happen at this parcel.

And I was like, look at this. Like two girls from the hood who grew up in this hood we're able to put this all together to get these kids to put a presentation together. They all present to us, but when I'm sitting with the kids, talking to them, giving, like, giving them ideas or talking about the, the, like the why we're doing all of this.

Like one of the girls, she sees one of my tattoos. And it's a semicolon and essentially it's a mental health like piece. Like it's supposed to like let you know like you're not finished, like you have more to go. And she's like, lemme have one too. What? And so she shows me hers and now we're talking back and forth about like life and why and why I got mine, why she got hers.

Yeah. Now this has nothing to do with what was happening at the city, but look at how we got to vibe. And then when she's ready to share out, it's so much bigger, so much livelier because I'm a real person to her and I really care about what she's talking about and what she's saying and how she envisions this.

They came up with like a five story building and they wanted like a, a daycare and they wanted it to be like a workspace, um, where people could work here, like in this building, but have daycare right in the building and then have like, they have these different sets of schools that they thought should happen all in our downtown.

Where else would we have heard stuff like that, right? Um, but I think she was so much more livelier when she was presenting because we had that chance to survive and to really share those stories. And for me to really express to her why I thought it was important for her to understand what local government did and how it all worked out.

But it came from me telling the story of this tattoo and it came from me telling my best friend the story of why I think the parcel five was so important for the kids to tell us what they wanted. So all of this was really brought together by me just trying to put all these stories together in one and giving the kids and one, an experience, but two, also me and my best friend, being able to, to do the work that we wanna do for the kids to progress in our city.

Um, and I just thought that that was like such an amazing thing and I was so impressed by us, um, doing it all, but it really stemmed from being able to tell a story. In a way, um, that really just spoke to someone because even convincing my boss, while she was great, she had a very busy day. So I went in, I'm like, man, lemme tell you about these kids.

Lemme take you what they need. And you know, at the end of that year, two of her students interned for me at the city. That's amazing. And we were able to like it, you know, it just, you see how organically it grew, but it came Yeah. From me being able to tell multiple people a story in a way that just kind of spoke to them.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm hearing a, a couple different things and I that jump out at me about storytelling. Um, one is that it was important to you, right? You felt it was important. You felt like you were passionate about this and you advocated and told like, Hey, we should, we should bring these kids into, into this process.

Right? Um, and then, um. We actually, or y'all, um, it brought in other voices, uh, to inform a decision about something, right? And you asked for their input and stories, uh, into what they were gonna be using this land for, you know? Um, and I, I just don't think that we do that enough. Like ask people how best to serve them or what they need.

Like what do you need? 

Jeiri Flores: I 

Tim Villegas: think that's, I, I just don't think we, I don't think we ask. I don't think we do that enough. 

Jeiri Flores: I agree. But I think as educators, like that's really the best way to, to really do this. Like, I work with, um, my, my nieces are obsessed with me as an educator. 'cause they, I think they think, I teach kids and I think it's hilarious because it's like they, I took them to work with me, uh, like two weeks ago because I think they keep asking like, well, how are your students?

I'm like, okay baby. They, they good. You wanna see them Like, all right, so I bring 'em in and like, it's all these adults and they're like, but one of the things that really works well again, is asking like, what is it, like, what, what is it? Like, what don't you like, what is not happening? What, what doesn't make sense?

How do we, how do I get you to understand this? Or how can I show you, you know, what it is that, you know, I'm trying to get at with this conversation? Um, I teach a specifically, um, in the fellowship that I teach my students, I teach a session on advocacy. Um, and I really tie it in. To a lot of stories, but one of my favorite things to do is to bring people in who have nothing to do with disability advocacy, who just like do advocate.

So one of my favorites, uh, people that I like to bring in on a panel is an abortion doula because it's a, that's a rare position for someone to hold. It's also not someone that people talk about often. Right? Right. And when this lady first came, she, she has a huge role. She does a lot of like body positivity stuff.

So like being an abortion doula is just one thing on her list of things that she does, or I didn't even know that she did this right. Originally when she first came, I was like, well, you're body positive. Like, this is what you talk about. You talk about inclusive sizing and like, we, like, I'm like, you'll be a great panelist.

Um, and she mentions this like being an abortion doula and I'm like, this is such a great conversation because let's unpack this. Like, because. You know, an abortion. People make it seem like it's just something easy and fast that people just do 'cause they can. Mm-hmm. But it's also an emotional journey.

Like it's a very intimate, emotional journey that you're going on. And here is this woman who is volunteering her, her time, her space, and her energies to helping you heal and travel through that with her so you don't feel so alone. So I love to bring her in front of my students so that they can see, like, look, advocacy looks different for everybody in every space, in every arena.

Um, but I wanna bring it on a humanistic level. And I think that that goes back to the vulnerability piece, right? The more humanistic you can be, the better. Um, and so for my nieces, when they come in and they see this, they don't know nothing about disability. Outside of my auntie is in a wheelchair and.

Even my niece calls folks and wheelchair, wheelchair people, and I'm like, baby, that's not, I mean, granted, she's nine, right? She's learning. Yeah. But you know what I mean? Like it's, it's for them to see how this all plays out in real life and real time and saying like, okay, how can I get you to understand what, what it is that I do, but what it is that, you know, it's so important for folks with disabilities as we continue to grow and age.

Um, and, you know, they didn't get to see the advocacy session 'cause that might have been a little too grown up for them. But it, it really is very much so important for the other students in the room to be like, what do you need to get to for this to make sense to you for this to really feel real. And even with those students in that high school, right?

For that young woman, it was like, oh, okay. Like you're not, I'm from the same hood she from, we live two streets away from each other, right? So yes, I came here representing the city, but I'm not like someone who lives in a suburb. I'm not someone who doesn't understand it. Shorty got shot up the street, uh, that down the street you like, you know, there's 16 abandoned houses.

I live right here with you. Like we are the same. And so I think that, that, from what I'm hearing from what you're saying is, you know, as an educator, the biggest piece is what you need. How do I get you here? 

Tim Villegas: Exactly. Exactly. And I can 

Jeiri Flores: make it more humanistic to you so that when you close the eyes, just you can hear me still saying like, oh yeah, this, I just feel like it makes so much more sense.

And I know that that's a heavy task. 'cause as teachers, I'm not in, I'm just someone who facilitates. I would say I do that well. Um, but I think for teachers, you're not just a teacher, right? Like, you are sometimes a caretaker, sometimes you're a counselor, sometimes you're, there's a hundred different roles that you carry.

So I think that it's, it's just a heavy load. Um, but the more humanistic you could be, the better. 

Tim Villegas: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so. I'm gonna ask you one more question to kind of wrap up our conversation, and then I have, um, the mystery question, which is just like a random question that we both, uh, answer. Okay. Okay. Um, uh, anything that you'd want educators, uh, to walk away from this conversation with?

Jeiri Flores: I think that one thing is not to be scared to be vulnerable. I think that, I think educators think that they have to fit in a specific mode, like in a specific cutout. Um, because education is a hard space to, to live and work and breathe in. But I think that, um, if you're not scared, um, one of some of the best teachers that I've had are people who weren't afraid to show me, like, look, I.

You know, this is it. Like, mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, you know, this, this is you. The, this is my grass. I know that your grass looks like that, but this is what my grass look like. And I think it, it worked out best for me in that way. Um, and so I think you can't be afraid of that. I think people are looking for that right now, especially.

Right. I think people are looking for that authenticity, that space of like, well, we could be human to human together. Um, and I think even for kids that works. Um, I think that that's why I vibe with kids and, and I think even for older adults, I think for my fellows, I also like to show up for them. And I know that that's hard because you have lots of roles.

Um, but if, if my fellows are presenting their master's thesis and I can make it, I'm showing up, right? You are my fellow for a year. So to me, that makes us family for this year. Right. Especially like. You know, for some fellows who we have or who are foreign exchange students who don't have no family.

Right. So they're mm-hmm. Showing up to this thing by themselves with nobody. Well, no. I'm gonna clap it up for you. Even if I don't understand any of the science you just said, like, even if I don't, one of my fellows was studying like DNA and like one specific part of the DNAI was like, I don't, I love you.

I don't know nothing that you talked about, but I'm here. Like, you know. Yeah. Um, and so I think showing up really matters or reading that article that somebody might have published and, you know, coming back and having real life like commentary. One of my fellows is, is wa they wanted to, they watched a movie that Disney recently released and they're like, oh, what'd you think?

Okay, I'll watch it. Like, we can have a conversation about it. And I think really just showing up for folks in education right now, um, is a big game changer. 

Tim Villegas: Yes. That, that human element just let's be humans. 

Jeiri Flores: Yeah. You know, I just 

Tim Villegas: be humans, man. I, 

Jeiri Flores: and I know that educators have a lot, right? 'cause you have your own family and everything, but I think that they're, if you like, I'm not saying make space for everything, but I think that, you know, little things you can just try to do, you know, sprinkle them around, like, 

Tim Villegas: yeah, yeah.

I don't 

Jeiri Flores: show up to all my fellows, you know, defenses and stuff. But like, if, if there's a handful of them that they announce like, this is happening. I, one of my fellows created an app and he was like, I'm presenting to the dean, can you come? Sure. I, I'll show up. I'm here. Do I understand the app that he created?

No, I'm not an app developer. I don't know nothing, but I was there. You know, so I think that's what important You're 

Tim Villegas: there. Yeah. Yeah. You just to support a support. 

Jeiri Flores: Yeah. He was so excited. He was like, oh, my God's here. Yeah. I, I got lost, but I'm here. Like, you know. 

Tim Villegas: Oh my gosh. All right. Um, awesome, awesome.

This has been fun. Uh, for sure. We are. Well, we're gonna end, we, we end with the mystery question. Okay. Boom. We don't know. I don't know the 

Jeiri Flores: latter numbers. 

Tim Villegas: Don't know what, no. Yeah. Sorry. It's not that kind of question I don't think. All right, here we go. I, what are most people afraid of that doesn't scare you?

Jeiri Flores: Public speaking. Oh 

Tim Villegas: yeah, I just need, that's a good one. 

Jeiri Flores: Yeah. People be real nervous and they be like, oh, uh, I don't know what I'm gonna say. The only thing I'd be afraid of is cussing. I'd be like, oh my God, please don't let me cuss. Um, because I, I cuss like a sailor that, but that's it. But that is not something that like, makes me nervous.

I, 

Tim Villegas: you don't ever get ner, you don't ever get nervous. Like, what about like, just like that energy because like, 

Jeiri Flores: so on the inside for sure. My heart race. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Racing. My height will be racing uhhuh. Like when I know I'm coming up next, like it's my turn next. My heart is racing. Like, and I'm, you know, I get nervous and I'm like, all right, like, don't drop the ball on this.

But for the most part, like, 

Tim Villegas: yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm 

Jeiri Flores: good. Like I'm just, this is not something that, like my, I just presented with a colleague of mines. To some researchers on ableism, and she's nervous. Like we had to drive 35 minutes and for 35 minutes she was wanting us to talk about the presentation and to figure it all out.

And I'm like, we gonna be good. Like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not worried. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. 

Jeiri Flores: And so it's something that doesn't make me scared. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. I can, I can relate to that because, uh, I, I don't know how many times I've spoken public, but it's a lot. And being a, and being, being a teacher too, you, it's like, that is your job, basically.

Like it's a small public, but you're, you're speaking all the time. So, um, 

Jeiri Flores: I thought that I would be nervous. There was a crowd once, it was like maybe a thousand folks and I was like, all right, this the one, this the one that's gonna not like, I'm not gonna be able to do it. Um, but I was fine. I was like, okay.

So, you know, it was cool. I really just need, I, I really just need one person in the crowd to nod and, and gimme the approval. Like, I'm, 

Tim Villegas: you're like, okay, at least one person, 

Jeiri Flores: and then I'm good. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. Um, what along the lines, it's along the, the same lines, a lot of people, um, they don't like to hear their voice like recorded.

Mm-hmm. Um, and like this happens with, uh, this happened with my kids. Like they, sometimes I will pull out my recorder and, and record our conversation or, or whatever, and they're like, no, I cannot listen to my voice. I cannot listen to my self talk. And, um, I don't know what it is, but I've always loved recording my own voice and listening to it.

And it's just something that I'm really comfortable with. So I have like a zero problem with it. The one thing that I don't like is video, and I'm getting better at it. I, when I first started, like being like officially podcasting or whatever, uh, getting paid to podcast, I did not like, uh, video, but I am getting a little bit better at it.

So that's, that's pretty good, I guess. Um, I'm trying to think of anything else that I, that doesn't scare me. Um, those are the, yeah, those are really the only, only thing. Well, I also play, I used to play in like, um, rock bands and stuff, so that's the other, that's like the other thing that prepares you for this kind of role is getting in front of a mic, you know, actually holding a microphone makes me feel really comfortable.

Jeiri Flores: Well see. I don't like holding a mic. I think, I don't mind, like, it doesn't make me nervous just being in front of people. I think the microphone is what makes me nervous. Oh, really? Okay. It just has, I think it just has to do with like. How I need to hold it. Like, it might be like, because I'm disabled, like mics have cords.

Like I don't wanna break anything. I ce the gala once. Um, and they wanted me to read a script, can the award. And someone who was like telling me like who was the previous mc was like, you should move around the stage. Don't just sit, don't just sit one spot. And so I'm like, oh my God, you want me to move around hands an award?

This microphone? It just felt like so 

Tim Villegas: much. Yeah, it's a lot. That's a lot. And 

Jeiri Flores: I was like, I dunno. Um, so I, I think microphones make me nervous. I'm not the ones that you put on your lapel because those I don't even think about. But, uh, um, like micro, even when I'm on the radio, I, I'm like, oh my God, do I sound like a fat kid that loves cake?

'cause you can hear like me breathing, like there's all these things that I think about and I really don't when I'm just talking. No, Mike, I don't think about it at all, but when I, as soon as you gimme a mic, like even on the, the thing on YouTube, right? The, the, when they first handed me the mic, I was like, oh my God.

Like, here we go. Like

me in this mic now. 

Tim Villegas: That's funny. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah. I love having a mic. I love it. I think it's like a, it's, you sound free. It's like a mask. Okay. You know, like for me it's like, um, it's like I have a mask and that means like, I have a mic and it's like my, it's my un, it's like a uniform. It's like it have a mic.

So therefore I can be a certain way, you know? And I, I feel like my personality actually comes out a little bit more. Um, but what if I don't have a mic? Then I'm a, I'm a little bit like, it's a, it's a little bit more of a struggle. Just a little bit, a little bit. 

Jeiri Flores: I think I, I attribute the mic thing to me just being disabled and just always thinking that I'm gonna like a bowl in China cabinet.

Like, I'm gonna break something. No, 

Tim Villegas: it's real. Yeah. 

Jeiri Flores: I just think that it's just gonna happen. But I think I sound great on a mic. Like, I think I would love to do like voiceover work. Like that was, like, that was, to me, I feel like I sound like so intelligent. Like the tone in my voice sounds richer. I just, I'm like, I'm just impressed with myself.

I'm like, this sounds amazing. Um, and, but, uh, I, it makes me nervous. Like, but that's just me by myself though. Like, that's not me, like in front of people. Like when I'm in front of people with the mic, that's a very different, 

Tim Villegas: yeah. Yeah. Jeiri Flores, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Uh, this was a lot of fun. 

Jeiri Flores: Thank you for having me. 

Tim Villegas: That is all the time we have for this episode of Think Inclusive. Now let's roll the credits. Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I handle the writing, editing, design, mixing, and mastery. This podcast is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education.

Our original music is by Miles Kredich, with additional tunes by melod.ie, a big shoutout to our sponsor, IXL. Check them out at ixl.com/inclusive. We truly appreciate each and every one of you who tunes in. We'd love to hear how you are using these episodes. Are they part of your teaching toolkit? Are you sharing them with school administrators?

Maybe you're sharing them with friends and family and colleagues. Drop me a line at tvillegas@mcie.org and let me know. And hey, if you're still with us this far into the episode, it probably means that you love, think inclusive and the work that MCIE is doing. Can I ask a small favor? Help us keep the momentum going by donating at ourwebsite mcie.org.

Just click the button at the top of the site and chip in $5, $10, $20. It would mean the world to us and the children and the schools and districts we partner with. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works

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