Alissa Rausch + Ben Riepe Master
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Ben Riepe: The myth of inclusion that it's gonna somehow take away from someone else's experience versus enrich it, that if the time spent to support children with disabilities somehow doesn't also, improve the, the social outcomes of, of all the children in the classroom, that's something that at all the levels we think carefully about how are we connecting with families and how are we bringing them in to, to learn their experiences.

Alissa Rausch: One of the reasons that we feel so strongly about the systems approach to this, particularly the community approach, is because even when inclusive opportunities are present, sometimes the experiences of families, when their child say, gets a diagnosis anywhere from the nicu, all the way up into age three, families are often hearing that all the things that their child will never be able to do.

So they move into this setting and what they hear is and they hear, oh, these inclusive opportunities are available. But their lived experience has been, people have told me that my child will be capable of this. And so the systems approach really helps us to think about, these are birth through five or birth through eight indicators, and they really help us to think about what's happening with these families, what's happening with the diagnoses that are coming out of the medical profession that are even just setting these families up with immediate barriers and really a lack of presumed competence.

Tim Villegas: Hey friends, this is Think Inclusive. I'm Tim Villegas who you just heard was Alissa Rausch and Ben Riepe as the director of a Research and Technical Assistance Center at the University of Denver. Alissa Rausch is a passionate advocate for the educational rights of young children, particularly those with disabilities and intersectional identities.

With extensive experience as a provider, program leader, advocate, faculty member, and technical assistance provider, Alissa has successfully developed inclusive programs, both collaborative partnerships and promoted equitable practices, a leader in early childhood education. Alissa has contributed to legislative initiatives, professional development, and systems level transformation through work with organizations such as Disability Law, Colorado, N-C-P-M-I, and the ECTA Center.

Ben Riepe is a senior project manager for the positive Early Learning Experiences Center at the University of Denver. He supports ECTA and the National Center for Pyramid Model Innovations as a technical assistant. He has 13 years of experience supporting Head Start Classrooms as a teacher coach in trainer in Denver, Colorado.

This program served as a demonstration site for high fidelity program-wide implementation of the Pyramid model. His focus for the last decade has been to support systems to embed evidence-based practices into communities and classrooms. Thanks so much for being here with us today. We appreciate each and every one of you that is listening to or watching Think Inclusive.

MCIE's podcast that brings you conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. And while you are here, make sure to hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you are so that you can keep getting think inclusive in your feed. In this episode, I speak with guests, Alissa Rausch and Ben Riepe about their work with the Early Childhood Technical Assistance Center, ECTA, and the development of inclusion indicators.

They discuss the critical role of these indicators in guiding inclusive practices across various levels, state, community, local programs, environments, emphasizing family partnerships and collaborative teaming, highlighting the importance of early childhood inclusion as a foundation for lifelong success.

They share insights on how these indicators can drive systemic change, improve educational outcomes, and ensure that all children, including those with disabilities, experience, belonging and dignity in their educational setting. We also touch on implementation science and the significance of intentional community-based approaches to inclusion.

Before we get into my conversation with Alissa and Ben, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this season, IXL. XL is a fantastic all in one platform designed for K 12 education. It helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress seamlessly. Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources.

Well, that's IXL. As students practice, IXL adapts to their individual needs, ensuring they're both supported and challenged. Plus, each learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively address any knowledge gaps. Interested in learning more, visit ixl.com/inclusive. That's ixl.com/inclusive.

All right. After a short break, we'll get into my conversation with Melissa Rausch and Van Riepe. Catch you on the other side.

All right. Alissa Rausch and Ben Riepe, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast. How's everyone doing? 

Alissa Rausch: Great. Thank you so much for having us. We're, uh, honored to be here. Thanks for your incredible work. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah, we're very excited about this this day, so thank you. Absolutely. Uh, well, one of the reasons why, uh, we wanted to have you on, um, was our relationship with the Early Childhood Technical Assistance Center, uh, Jani.

Um, Kozlowski actually is the one who, uh, uh, suggested that y'all be on to talk about the inclusion indicators. Um, so why don't we start with. What your role is, uh, wherever you are, uh, in whatever agency or organization you work with. Um, so just say that and then also your connection to the indicators.

And let's just, let's just start there. Uh, and Alissa or Ben, either one can just go first. 

Alissa Rausch: Great. Um, so my name is Alissa Rausch and we're at the University of Denver. Um, we, uh, have a subcontract on the Early Childhood Technical Assistance Center, um, and the team at the University of Denver does, um, a number of things.

Uh, at the Early Childhood Technical Assistance Center. One of the things that we spend, um, quite a bit of time on is, um, implementation of inclusion, um, and for young children, um, both, uh, birth to birth to three as well as ages three to five and also five to eight. And so, um, our team at the University of Denver has spent, um, a number of years, uh, working on the inclusion indicators, uh, supporting the development of those indicators, um, across all the levels, the state, community, local program, and environment levels.

Ben. 

Ben Riepe: Yeah. And we've also helped, um, their, their dry run, um, with, uh, you had an earlier podcast in May with, um, uh, Meredith, uh, vz. And, um, that was, that was our first, one of our first states, Oregon and Illinois. And so we, we, um, we were went through them with those folks. We got feedback from people who have used them and then updated, uh, the indicators over time.

Um, and this is just, this work is just super near and dear to us, uh, a lot of inclusion work of over the past couple decades and, and, um, having, uh, a list for folks to look at, um, and um, consider, have conversations around, um, is real, is a real joy for us to share with others. So. 

Tim Villegas: Fantastic. Uh, the, the indicators, how did that come about?

You said you had, uh, you had a dry run, you had, Oregon was one of the first, uh, states that you worked with. Where, where's the it coming from with the need for the indicators? Um, what, was it something that was, um, already in the works or did ECTA facilitate that? How did that, how did that happen? 

Alissa Rausch: Yeah, so, um, there have always been, um, supports through ECTA around supporting states, um, to, um, to, um, you know, create the circumstances, the policies, the procedures, um, and the practices that support inclusion.

And there's been a number of tools that ECTA has put out over time, um, in 2017 or 2018. There was a group that came together, um, that really said, okay, we've got a lot of tools that help with, um, inclusion at the environment level, um, that really say this is what we know the practices should look like. Um, but really there's a need that, um, in order for really good practices to be happening for teachers, um, and providers to use, um, really good strategies that include all children, um, and help them to belong in the environment.

There needs to be a system that exists that supports them and those systems, um, are they, they include what's happening at the local program level, what's happening with administrators, with principals, with those folks who. Um, who are making the policies within envi, within the, the school that supports teachers.

Um, we also know that children with disabilities are everywhere in the early childhood environment. They're not just in schools, they're in childcare. They're community childcare. They're in a head start. They're in all those. Places. And so there does also need to be some guidance for communities to say where wherever the child is, is how we can support getting, um, or how can we support getting, uh, information or getting services to that child.

Um, and so really making sure that, um, the things are in place that services follow the child rather than like a place. And that at the, at the top there, we also know that there needs to be things in place at the state level, um, that break down barriers for the communities and local programs to do their work that offer guidance, um, for how that should be done, um, and how inclusion is a priority and really, um, you know, to raise awareness around, um, children birth to age five or birth to age eight with disabilities.

Um, and so that is how that really got started was to really say, what does this look like at a systems level? 

Ben Riepe: You know, for, for a lot of early childhood educators, I'm speaking for myself circa 25 years ago, you know, you may have the desire to wanna help, um, children with disabilities and your, your heart is in the right place and your skillsets just don't align.

And so having tools to support, um, programs to make those systems possible, uh, that, that the teachers get the skills that they need, having, um, classroom strategies so that you can have conversations about what it is that I'm doing, what it is that I wanna do to get children's needs met. Um, that's a real, that's, uh, something that really drives me.

Um, and also the community piece because, um, I worked with communities, uh, who were trying to get these things in place and it, uh, it's a, it can be a really, um, isolating feeling if you think your program is the only one using these practices, if your classroom is the only one trying to support a pool of children.

Um, with disabilities, but if your whole community is working together to make these things happen, um, it's beneficial for everyone. Um, but it's especially, uh, beneficial for children and families that they don't feel like they are isolated, that they have to fight, to fight to get their kids, uh, included.

Um, uh, which is just unfortunately what happens in a lot of places. Um, 

Tim Villegas: yeah, absolutely. And I'm assuming that it's, it's challenging for families who really want an inclusive setting and, and can't find one. Right. Um, or they don't even know what they're looking for. They don't know what it looks like. They may have an idea of, I have a, I have a child with a disability and I.

You know, I know that, um, I'm able to receive services to support my child. Uh, but the only options that are available are ones in a special education classrooms or only, um, there's only students with, uh, with support needs. Um, how do, how does fa how do families know that this is something that their, their settings can't even access?

Ben Riepe: Yeah, that's another one of my favorite part of all, all the levels is, is, is this, this addressing of the biggest challenge of all, which is attitudes and beliefs. It's not the, it's not that the skills are, are unresearched or ineffective, it's that people don't know what the strategies are and, um, especially at the community level.

'cause you don't go, like, I use this analogy a lot, uh, Tim, I. Uh, you don't go to the seven 11 for financial advice or marital advice from the dude, you know, unless you know them. Right? Right. So they, but you go to people that you do know and people in the community know, and there will be people in, in, uh, different communities that will, that you'd look to for advice.

And if the community has a plan for how to share information with the doctors, with the, um, with, with all different kinds of, you know, faith groups and lots of different people that are in the community, and reach out to them and share with them, here's what it is that we're doing as a community in the early childhood community to help support children and families to get their needs met in their programs.

And, um, that, that can be a real driver, um, to address that really, uh, challenging piece. And it's the same thing for like, you know, special educators for, um. Speech language pathologists, like there are so many folks that just don't understand, or they, they, they either have all their experience in an isolated setting or they have, um, or they have this better experience where they're like, you know, supporting, um, uh, supporting different classrooms along the way and supporting the teachers to know what it is that they need, what practices they need to use to support the needs of all the children that they're, they're supporting and newsflash, um, it supports all the children.

Like the, that's the, the myth of inclusion is powerful and, um, mm-hmm. Um, that, that it, that it's, that it's gonna somehow take away from someone else's experience versus enrich it. That it's going to, um, that it's going to the, the time spent, um, to support children with disabilities somehow doesn't also, IM, IM improve the, the social outcomes of, of all the children in the classroom.

Um, so that's a, that's something that they, at all the levels we, we think, we think carefully about how are we connecting with families and how are we bringing them in to, to learn their experiences. And part of that is getting to know what do the, the, the families in our community believe about inclusion and what do they know about the, the facts on, um, the, the research and the, the studies on inclusive outcomes.

Um, and can we, uh, do a better job of letting all the people know what's available and providing professional development supports for the folks who are ready, wanting to know, um, like me 25 years ago, not that didn't have the skillset yet, but will are, are going to learn them. Um, that's the, there's, it's, it's putting a plan in place to make those things happen.

Alissa Rausch: Yeah, I, I love that. And I think, um, one of the things that. You know, there is this notion of like, what's been the experience, the personal experiences of folks with in inclusion that really drive. Mm-hmm. What have been their experiences in education that really drive, um, the decisions that they make? One of the reasons that we feel so strongly about the systems approach to this, um, particularly the community approach is because, um, even when inclusive opportunities are present, sometimes the experiences of families when they have, that they have, when their child's say, gets a diagnosis, um, anywhere from, you know, the NICU all the way up, um, into age three.

Um, sometimes those medical diagnoses, um, are, are medical in nature and, um, families are often hearing, um, that all the things that their child will never be able to do. So they move into this setting and what they hear is, um. It and they hear, oh, these inclusive opportunities are available. But their lived experience has been, people have told me that my child will be capable of this.

And so the systems approach really helps us to think about, these are birth through five or birth through eight indicators, and they really help us to think about what's happening, um, with these families, what's happening with the diagnoses that are coming out of the medical profession, um, that are even just setting these families up with immediate barriers and really a lack of presumed competence.

Um, and so, uh, really thinking intentionally about that and, and using that as a leverage point, I think supports families later on in understanding all of the great things that are available. 

Tim Villegas: Let's break down what the indicators. Are so that listeners, uh, can conceptualize how they, how it might be useful for them.

So we have, we certainly have special educators, general education teachers that listen. Um, school administrators, uh, most likely, uh, people and educators who work in early childhood. Um, I'm often surprised at how many people don't know that there's inclusion indicators or that there is even a, a national center, like early childhood, the Early Childhood Technical Assistance Center.

Um, if you were to explain how the indicators could be useful, um, for, for a school system or a community, um, how, how would you explain that to someone? I, 

Alissa Rausch: yeah. Um. I'll take a stab at it, and then I'm gonna let Ben take his stab at it. 'cause I think based on our, our different roles, I think we'll, we'll come at this potentially differently.

Um, the indicators are called indicators because they indicate something, um, they point toward something. And so across the four levels, the state, the community, the local program, and the environment level, um, there are lists of what inclusion looks like and or feels like. The experience of inclusion in each of those centers or in each of those, uh, systems.

And what the ideal policies, processes, practices that should be in place that describe this is what High quality inclusion, belonging, dignifying, humanizing identity affirming sorts of of things. This is, this is the ideal situation for that. So that's what the indicators are in terms of like, what actually are they, the process of using, um, them really includes, we, we say includes implementation science.

Mm-hmm. 

Alissa Rausch: So, um, we often know that we say stuff like, let's just start implementing inclusion. Um, that doesn't just happen overnight. There's lots of things that have to be put in place. So while we know that those indicators are a guidepost, um, we also know that implementation is what guides that process.

So we spend time with, um, with the states and communities and programs that we're working in to explore what is it that they're already doing, um, what is it that they want to get better at? What is it that their families are telling them that they, that they need more of, less of all of that. What does their data say?

Um, about least restrictive environment. Um, and, and some of those sorts of things. And then after we explore that, then we begin to think about how do we wanna install these? What are the sort of the first things we wanna get after? And it's after we set that base that we start to think about initial to full implementation, what we know when we move through those stages in that way, using the indicators at the guideposts as a guidepost at any of those levels that we're more likely to get to sustainability, um, and scalability because we have all of those things in place, um, moving forward.

And so when I try to explain it to folks, it is that their indicators, their guideposts, their North star, and it's the process of how we support systems to do that. Um, that really does, um, is where the rubber meets the road. 

Ben Riepe: Yeah. So for. For a lot of, um, you know, preschool teachers that are out there. Um, again, like you have this like desire to be supportive, but you're looking for some, for, you're looking for those guideposts, right?

So there's the bigger indicators and then there's the elements inside of them. So for classroom level, there's things like, you know, social, social emotional learning and development. And, um, how am I going to, uh, predict, make predictable act class activities so that my child, the children in my classroom are able to manage, you know, their way through that, that, uh, classroom activity.

So I use my outlook to make sure that I'm in the right place at the right time and I'm in the right zoom meeting. Um, children, they need their circle time to be pretty predictable so that they can just say, all right, dude, I'm going to miss, miss Sunshine is getting through the, the, the, the book. She's gonna sing a song afterwards, and then we're done with circle time.

I can manage it through the book and the circle and the song, right? But it, but if I don't know, it's really stressful for me and I might start acting out. Um, so it's, it's get, it's providing teachers, um, ideas, but it's also providing them, um, opportunities to have a conversation. How am I going to support the peer interactions between the children in my classroom?

What opportunities can I provide for them to, to practice those, those interactions, um, in, in ways that are meaningful for the child, right? Um, and ways that are meaningful for the families that we're working with. Um, versus, you know, Ben's version of what, what, what, what a interaction should look like.

What are the, what do the children in my classroom, what do their families say about interactions? And then I weave that into my, my lessons so that things are impactful. And it's the same process all the way up and down the line, whether you're a program or a community, like what are we doing with these different guideposts?

And let's talk about it and make action plans so we can meet, meet the goals that we're wanting to make, um, and get better outcomes for the children and families, um, that we're, we're providing care for. 

Tim Villegas: I think this is a, a really great discussion about, uh, you know, how someone can use these, um, indicators very practically to improve their own practice or classroom, especially like a special educator e even even a, a, like a center administrator or something like that.

But to, um, your point, uh, Alissa, the process of systems change is not something that you can just. You know, snap your fingers and do, or even really do by yourself. You need, you need a process. Yes. You need a process to go through. Um, and you're speaking for, for the, you know, for MCIE, uh, we, our, our technical assistance work is steeped in implementation science.

So, um, you're really speaking our language when you're talking about installation and, you know, getting ready for this, this change in process. Um, and so my next question is, while the indicators can be useful for the here and now, um, as systems are looking for that long-term process of change, uh, how can, maybe that's a, maybe that's a question for ECTA.

Um, but how can people like. Uh, use the indicators to it, it to further their work, like long term. 

Ben Riepe: Can I to, do you wanna? Mm-hmm. Can I get a take at the first? Go for it, Ben. Chat with this. Yeah. So it's really intended for leadership teams across, uh, across the way to like, take them and then to look at, go through them and then to action plan based on their priorities.

Right. So, um, there's teams that we've worked with five years ago who we just spoke to earlier today. Um, and they were like, family partnerships is still one of our top three priorities. Like we was a priority back in the time and it's still a priority. We are always reaching out, trying to, trying to find ways of like, how are we gathering the information to families?

How are we finding out who, which families aren't getting access to, um, to our work and how do we support, uh, them to get better access to inclusive practices? So it's part of a process of, of a leadership team process. That's how they're intended to be used. Um, they're a little different than sometimes people have.

Um, this is, you know, they may have like rubrics or whatever, and you might, you might use them, but it's, we're we're more interested in you using them to def to determine, um, action plans and to have conversations and to find solutions. Less than like, you gotta, you got a high score, yay. And then, you know, three weeks later, Alissa leaves and goes to Wyoming and now we have a word square, square one because one person was doing all the work and now we, we don't have any of the systems or, or pieces in place.

So we've intended them to be used alongside with leadership teams to have conversations with those leadership teams, to action plan accordingly. And then, um. That's, that, that, that was my, that was my take on, on the use of them. But we found that like the community teams that use these early on really did have great outcomes over time.

And, um, and now they're, what I, what I loved about an earlier call today was that they, you hear these teams are sharing their knowledge and their experience with other communities inside of the state. And because there was a state system that was supporting this, they're allowed to do that. And they're, they're given, you know, agency to support each other.

And, um, and it feels really good to help other people newsflash. Um, and it feels really good to, um, to have hard fought victories in terms of like inclusive practices and increase the number of children, um, as your make, uh, uh, podcast shows. You've made this big growth over time, um, not just in the number of children who are being served, but also in the quality of the, the services provided.

Um, 

yeah, 

Ben Riepe: that's really answered your question there. I got off on a tangent there, Tim. I got, I got all excited about the work. No, we 

Tim Villegas: like the 

Ben Riepe: passion. 

Alissa Rausch: Yeah, I was just, I was gonna like, I think that's so, that's so great, Ben. Um, and, and I, I think too, there's a, a qualitative piece to the inclusion indicators, um, that is responsive, um, and supportive in nature.

So, um, we, when we. Support, technical assistance around the inclusion indicators. Um, we rarely, we don't say, here's what you do. Here's the recipe, here's how to move forward. Um, rather what we do is we say, what are your strengths? What is like, we believe in building on the lasting capacity of others. And so, um, what is it that you're already doing?

What are you really good at? And how can we help you get into this, get, you know, continue that path towards continuous improvement in a really logical way that matters for your context, for the experiences of the providers, children and families. We find that that's really how you build that fabric of, um, that if one person goes away and you pull one thread, the whole blanket doesn't fall apart.

Right? You're, but you really are weaving it into, um, what's the culture, what's the climate of the state, of the local program, of the community, of the classroom, um, and building on what they have there. So, um, I think one of the things that we know will be sustaining about these is that it will be responsive.

They can be responsive and supportive. 

Ben Riepe: Yeah. There's another, there's another indicator that code that kind of weeds its way through these and it's on collaborative teaming. And, uh, I think that's a really, like, it's a sort of, um. If we're all getting along and we're all working together, uh, also in the family, uh, the family indicators that we're family engagement indicators that we're working together to level the playing field, that there isn't just this expert.

Um, we have experts that are, uh, experts of the field of, uh, early childhood special education, but that doesn't mean that they're experts of the families in the community. And we, we wanna make sure that the knowledge is shared back and forth. That there is a, there is a, um, uh, the teachers know a lot about their classroom, the, uh, the, the, uh, but how do we share this information back and forth so that it's meaningful change happens based on the context of the people that we're supporting.

Um, that that leads to the lasting change and that leads to people not moving. Uh. Um, out of the program and leaving to another program because they're just so frustrated. Nobody's listening to what, what is going on in my room? Or, you know, you know, going to the post office and becoming a postal worker because forget it, I'm outta here.

This, this is too much work for not enough. Um, nope, not enough payback. Uh, emotionally, so, 

Tim Villegas: yeah. Yeah. Oh, my apologies too. I just hit my, it just hit my microphone pretty good. You good? So someone's gonna be like, sorry, there, there, listening to this. Um, and, um, uh, I wanna, I want to, to explore what you said about family engagement, um, because I think in the K 12, in the K 12 space.

Um, that's certainly something that we talk about. We don't talk about it enough, like family engagement. Um, but I'm wondering in your perspective with putting together these indicators and then also just kind of working like who you're working with out in the field. Um, well, like how do you see, how do you see the role of the family in this process of like co-creating inclusive spaces?

Ben Riepe: Critical. Yeah. Essential. It's, you know, what's, what's interesting, um, and I'm just gonna share this and then, um, Alissa, um, I think you have some, some well thought out, um, pieces here. Uh, it's interesting because early childhood, um, frequently is like the, this, uh, um, now, what am I gonna say here? Uh, frequently early childhood providers are sort of seen as this lesser than.

To the, uh, K 12 system, right? There are these people that are babysitters, air quotes, um, that are, um, that are not, they don't understand, um, all the challenges that go into education, air quotes again, and yet it's interesting. Isn't it interesting that like, uh, inclusion happens so much more frequently in, in my experience in the early childhood setting 

mm-hmm.

Ben Riepe: Where children are allowed to be, where children feel that they belong, where children feel, um, like they're having joyful learning and they're having these great experiences. Like those are things that can happen in early childhood. They can also happen in the K 12 system. And what we're hearing. From families and what we're hearing from providers, even early childcare providers, they're saying, I did all this work, I had all these outcomes, and then I moved my child into the kindergarten system.

And then they, my, the, the children that I had supported all that time are now isolated into a different classroom. And, um, it's devastating for the families and the children. It's devastating for the, for the providers who did all this great work and they're sort of discounted. So it's really good. Like community work can be really good at like addressing that a little bit on saying, Hey, this is what the family's experience has been and let's, let's keep that kid, uh, going.

But, um, families are, are, um, absolutely, um, they're advocates for their children. Uh, they make, they should be essential decision makers in the process. They should, they should be sharing. What, what is working for them at home, and that should be implemented in the classrooms. Um, they should be able to, uh, advocate, uh, for themselves and to support cover for their children as the children are learning how to self-advocate for themselves.

Um, uh, we have a strong belief, uh, in our organization that dignity is a, is a right and like, so children should be treated with dignity, families should be treated with dignity. And um, and there's a lot of times when practices are really dehumanizing. Um, and, um, the, uh, the, and that's, that's not okay. And, um, yeah, that's, um, it, you know, for those of, you know, when you have children of your own and you've, and you've gone through, um, through these processes with OR systems and your child has a disability.

It's, it, it hits different mm-hmm. When you see, um, the conversations that people have about your children, the, uh, the way that, that people treat your child. Um, and it's really important, um, to, to support families because they have been hearing in lots of other different spaces, they've been hearing from folks all, like Alissa described earlier, all the different things that your kid can't do or sh won't be able to do, or, uh, um, all the reasons that they are less than their peers and, and that's not okay.

That shouldn't be part of our, of our school system or our early childcare system. Um, what they should be hearing is, you know, what's going, what's, what's working? What do you want us, what's your next steps for your child that you're hoping to see? Then when the child is able to say, these are my next steps for me, that should be, uh, who we're listening to, um, in supporting.

And, um, Alissa has shared an example. Uh, you know, we're not saying that children can't do hard things. We believe that children can do hard things. We have high expectations for the children that we're supporting. And, um, we need them to be part, they need to be, um, the families need to be in on the decision making that happens.

Um, they need to be in, on the, uh, choices that are being made about their children, and they may not feel like they're supposed to be the expert. So programs and systems in schools and teachers absolutely can help them to feel that way, to feel like they're, they're their advocates and it's important that they do those things and that those are, those are in the indicators in different places.

But, um. That it's, it's just an important, uh, personally, uh, professionally, everything like the, they're the ones, they're the most important people making the decisions. And, um, there you go. That's my take. 

Alissa Rausch: Yeah. Every, every level of indicator as, um, connection to family partnerships. And, and we do go into this like notion of family partnerships, um, even over family engagement because we do, um, want to see this as a partnership in terms of what families have to offer.

And so whether it's the state level, um, or any of the other levels, what, um, what, what are, what's families, um, what is family's partnership in, in those decisions that are being made, and how is that looked? And how does that look? How are they compensated for their time when they're supporting guidance that's written at the state level, when they're, um, when you know, all of, all of those sorts of things that really allow families and, and, um, to actually co-construct these systems.

Um, and so those, that's what exists there. And I think at the end of the day, you know, we believe that for young children, the way a system, um, recognizes or doesn't recognize families is a direct reflection of how they do or do not recognize, um, adults with disabilities, right? Mm-hmm. So what we see in terms of that self-advocacy piece and, and how families, um, are treated in that system, how they're, um, understood and how their experiences are sought out, how their expertise is sought out, um, really can.

Be a good measure of how adults will be treated in that same setting. Um, and so we want to establish early on that, um, across the system that is something that, um, is really important because, um, it's important for voice and autonomy and identity throughout, um, every, uh, person's experience in the educational system and beyond.

Tim Villegas: I really like what you, you had to say about family partnerships as, as far as instead of engagement, um, and I, I wanna bring this up again, this idea of co-construction of inclusive spaces, because I. I think, you know, and I'm just, I'm like thinking about all the conversations I've had about inclusion in, you know, in K 12, um, and how sometimes the, the conversation is, well, I need to make this space inclusive, right?

Without thinking about who is actually in the space. Right. So, um, and we cer and we certainly talk about that when we're, we're, we're talking about like collaborative planning and co-teaching is, you know, we're, we're looking at a lesson and maybe I'm a special education teacher and I'm working with a general educator and not just saying, okay, I'm gonna create this, I'm going to adapt this lesson, or whatever.

But really to think about who is in my class, who are the individuals in my class, and what kinds of, uh, people and cultures are represented in that class. And then figure out how to make it accessible for everyone. You know? So I'm, I'm, I'm imagining that this is the kind of collaboration you're talking about is who is in my center, who is in my school, who is in my community, uh, and how can we bring those people in and co-design something that works for everyone?

Yes. 

Alissa Rausch: Yeah. And the indicators really guide, um, across all the levels, you know, ways in which we can partner with families, um, that isn't, you know, check a box for, oh, we had a family night, or, oh, we had parent conferences. Yeah. We're working with programs now that are. Really, um, doing focus groups with families or individual interviews with families, and they're saying, you know, even though you might only be here for a short period of time, right?

You're in the K 12 setting for, you know, a couple of years at a time. Oftentimes our families are only in the early childhood setting for a co for a year or two. Um, but even being able to understand that and capture that really early in order to, um, create a culture and environment that's driven by families takes a lot of intention.

Um, and a lot of just sort of positioning yourself as, um, as, you know, not empower over families or an expert over families or, but rather, um, with families. And we find that when programs actually do that, then that is how they're able to capture, um, a lot of the great things that, that families, um, can and should offer in co-construction.

Ben Riepe: I have two thoughts. One like that. Intentional. So that's why it's a system, right? Mm-hmm. Like you can't, you as a teacher, having the time to meet with families, having time to hear feedback from families takes time. And so as a, as a program, you need to provide the opportunity to have those things. And I already hear a couple of, uh, squeaky wheels that are saying in their head, this is a lot of work.

Like, I don't have time to be playing intentionally for all the children in my classroom. You are already doing the work, man and woman, and people like you are already doing the work. You're already staying up late at night, not able to sleep about how Tim or Alissa are not participating in your circle time.

You're already like pulling your hair out. You're already like stress eating or whatever it is that you're doing to, to men. You're doing the work already mentally unsuccessfully because you did not do these steps and. It is hard work and we can do hard things. And if you do the work, your job becomes more meaningful, your outcomes become superior.

You feel better about who you are as a teacher. Like there's all, like all the things, man. Like it's, it's all available, it's all in front of you to do. And it does take, it does take a system. So if you're a, if you're a director, if you're a, you know, a CA community person, it's, it's like the tide. It doesn't matter which way you, you can be part of the energy that helps, like address a level of the system to help make things happen.

But it just, I, I know that people get worried about, or hung up on this is a lot of extra work. It's not extra work. The work is the work man. The work is in front of you. Whether you're a preschool teacher, a kindergarten teacher, a third grade teacher, it's, it is already there and you're already putting in all this energy.

Wouldn't you prefer. That the energy that you pushed did used was like effective. And so thinking carefully about the children in the program is, is absolutely, um, it just, it just really resonates with me. Um, 

Alissa Rausch: you'll also, um, read in the indicators or see in the indicators, or notice in the indicators that there's this level of presumed competence of families as well.

So one of the things that, um, that, you know, we wanna make sure that these inclusion indicators help to identify is that, um, again, with that positional power, um, that can happen in that, you know, education, family sort of dynamic, that when families enter in, they are indeed a full vessels. Um, and the whole notion of building on the capacity, um, it's not, we, we immediately don't then devalue what they could bring and then therefore exclude them as well from co-constructing with us.

But we enter from this posture of. Every family, um, and every child and every provider, um, is, um, we are building on their lasting capacity. Um, a colleague of ours at ECTA reminds us not to say that, um, we build capacity, but rather we build on capacity. And that mindset is really important when you're engaging in family partnerships as well.

Tim Villegas: I that Allison Jones. Well, thanks Allison Jones. I really like that. 

Alissa Rausch: I know. She's amazing. 

Tim Villegas: I really like that. Uh, something that Ben said that wanted to, uh, expand upon because it made me think of something that Shey Moore says, are you familiar with Dr. Chile Moore, uh, in Canada? It's that it's not, uh, this work, this work of inclusive practices.

It's not more work. It's different work. And I really, I really like that, that phrasing, um, that, and it's. Uh, because we do hear that as well, Ben, we hear, um, this is a lot, this is a lot for me to do. Or they, they, you know, certain educators are like, this is a lot for me to, to think about, uh, changing the way that I am doing things.

Uh, but hopefully you are getting some support. Hopefully, um, you are not doing this work alone. And just as a reminder, uh, a reminder to all of us that it's really not, uh, about putting more things on your plate, but it's actually just trying to utilize your resources a little bit more, um, efficiently. So, uh, really good, really good stuff.

Great discussion. Um, I am wondering about you, you said that you were working with Oregon. Um, are you working with any particular states right now? Or are you, as, as we look into the future, uh, of the indicators, is there anything else left to do as far as the work goes? 

Alissa Rausch: Yes. So, um, we do multiple types, levels of support, um, technical assistance related to the indicators.

Um, and some of those are really intensive work with, um, states. Some of that will be intensive work with communities that are trying to figure this out at the local level. Um, and, and maybe, you know, sort of in states where they're not ready to take that on. But the, but the community level, um, is a, is a really powerful leverage point.

Um, and, and we are continuing to do that. We're also, um, developing lots of wraparound supports, um, around this idea, um, that our colleague Sally Hansen brings in, um, that really connects with implementation science around how do you use these indicators to get ready. To get set to do next and go and, and so really building some of those wraparound supports that, um, that are, that are guiding this, um, that look at all these different complex dimensions of inclusion.

Um, inclusion, uh, Dr. Jackie Joseph reminds us all the time that inclusion is a system, it's not a set of anything. And so we are really hoping that the tools that, um, will be widely available on the ECTA website will really help, um, uh, pro programs, communities and states to think about what are those things that they're doing with children that will support outcomes.

But what are those things that they're doing with families? Um, what are those things that, and partnering with families, what are those things that they're doing around collaborative teaming that we know are all gonna move this, like, support the engine moving forward? Um, and those will all be, um, widely available on the ECTA website coming up soon.

Uh, and, and then ongoing work, um, currently on the A CTA website, there's an impact story. Um, so we know that there's lots of, um, data that we can, that we can look at related to least restrictive environment related to, um, some of, some of those. Um, some of those, uh. Points and within the IDEA statute, um, we also know that, um, we can measure impact through stories.

So the stories of families, of communities, of providers who feel really, who, who feel differently about their work and are doing different things. Um, and then also that sort of the, that child outcome sort of piece and measuring that really broadly. Uh, so we were, I think, um, looking forward to continuing, um, this work as it's in line with, um, success across the educational, um, experience as well as, um, into, uh, a lifelong, um, citizenship in the community.

There's, 

Ben Riepe: there's opportunities like technical assistance centers sometimes have, you know, uh, ongoing opportunities to participate in the same kind of process that right now Arizona and Washington and Oregon and Illinois, um, had, had gone through where you. You get more technical assistance to kind of like, think about that process and to run leadership teams, et cetera.

So those are, those are available and they, and they show up on the ECTA website occasionally. So I encourage people to check that out, see if, if things are coming up soon, um, 'cause they're, um, and build a commute, build, build a sense of community between, you know, yourself and other states. Like figure out like what's going on.

Um, and, um, what did, what lessons did you learn? Like I feel like there's, there's no, um, these, these people make themselves available once they've gone through this process to, to, to others, to, to show up and ask them questions. And it's, it's really, um, it's, it's inspiring to me, um, that they continue to share their, their hard work, uh, to help others to make, make a couple less missteps along the way.

Tim Villegas: Any, any final thoughts as we are wrapping up this conversation, um, to our audience, uh, educators, families, um, administrators? 

Alissa Rausch: You know, um, I, I would just say that, um, you know, this, the early focus on inclusion in early childhood in this birth to five or birth to eight way is so important as a foundation because it really does initially shape the.

Both positive and negative experiences that families and children have. And, um, and so to really, um, the investment in this becomes so important because it often sets the stage for educational success, um, and community success. Um, and so, uh, we, you know, we are really always looking for partners who, um, who want to be engaged with us and then move into the K 12 setting and make this a continual sort of process.

Um, so that we don't have, um, these disruptions or these moments where not great experiences are happening for children, families, and providers. 

Ben Riepe: Um, there's a, there's a, a couple of colleagues who are that, that talk about, you know, if, if you can say that you're helping a child, a child, or a family belong, you don't have to continue to to talk about like what, why that's important.

Like, you could stop there. Um, but if you have the heart of a, of a, a person who. Here's the word investment and says, I'm not gonna invest in this, this stuff. It's like, um, getting an oil change. And you could buy a new car every couple years because you blew the engine 'cause you never got your oil changed.

Or you could invest in something that you know is gonna have a big outcome, uh, over time and prevent you from spending a lot more money in K through 12 slash beyond because you spent the money when you were supposed to, to support the system at the beginning. So, so if you're, if you're wholly driven by money, don't waste your money by waiting until the car, uh, engine blows up to get a new engine.

Just change the oil. And, um, early childhood is a way of doing that. But it's also a way of, more importantly, if, if your heart is in the place where mine's at, you are helping children to not experience all these traumatic things, um, because your system wasn't set up for them. We can set systems up for everyone.

And it's, it's a, it's a good use of, uh, your time and it'll make you feel better and it'll also save you a lot of money. So, um, amazing. 

Tim Villegas: Amazing. Thank you. Yeah. Um, and that is such a, uh, relevant, I'm just a, I just got a little change. So that was actually, you think 

Ben Riepe: yourself was really just, 

Tim Villegas: really just thinking about that.

And what's funny, uh, Ben is I've had a car blow up on me on the freeway. Same. Um, you know, and it was when I was, when I was much younger Yes. And did not take, take care of my car. So I am, that 

Ben Riepe: analogy is so student teaching on the way back from Cedar Rapids to Iowa City, my car burst into flames and it was raining and I was like, I feel like there's a lesson here that I'm not learning.

And it was, I probably should have 

Tim Villegas: had that oil change like 5,000 miles ago. Yep. Yep. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Um, so true. Can you, uh, can you hang on with me for a few more minutes to do a mystery question? 

Ben Riepe: Yeah, 

Tim Villegas: yeah, of course. Okay. So I have a stack of cards here. Uh, and it's just a random prompt card.

They're pretty innocuous, hopefully, from what I remember. And then we'll all answer the, the question. So the mystery question is, um, well, it says if you were a bartender, but let's just say if you were a server at a restaurant that may or may not serve adult beverages, uh, what famous person would you like to serve?

And that is the card right there. If you were a bartender, which famous person would you like to serve? It doesn't say dead or alive, so I just, you know, you just decide which one. Um, let's see if y'all have one. Go ahead. Because I'm trying to think of one right now. Um, who would I really want to meet? Well, you know what?

Okay, so I will, I will go first so that while you, you all thinking, you, you, y'all are thinking. Um, I, uh, recently just, I, we were in New Orleans for the Tash Conference, um, our organization and I was looking up just, I forget exactly what it, oh, I know what it was. I was scrolling social media like you do, and there is a magician that I really like.

His name is Justin Willman. And Justin Willman is a comedian from Los Angeles and he does magic and I've been a big fan for years and he, he's had a couple Netflix specials and so I was like. Um, oh, he's gonna be in Atlanta, which is where I live. I live in the Atlanta metro area. And, um, it just, it didn't work out with the dates, but I'm like, oh my gosh, he's in New Orleans, the same weekend of Tash.

And so I was like, I have to go. And so I asked my wife, I'm like, how do you feel if I went to go see this magician by myself? And she's like, please, you go right ahead. You go right ahead and get that ticket so I don't have to go. And I was like, 

Ben Riepe: okay. That's funny. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. So then I, um, so I ended up getting two tickets and I took one of uh, uh, our coworkers, one of our new, new hires.

His name is Stewart. Hi Stewart. 'cause I know you listen. Um, and we had a great time. We had a great time. But I really like, um, I. He's just se seems like a really cool guy and I would love to be like the server. And he sat down and I would just, 'cause, you know, that he would just, he probably like, um, does really fun things wherever he goes.

So that would be my person. Not super famous to a lot of people, but he's famous to me, so. All right. Who would like to go? 

Alissa Rausch: Um, I'll, I'll go. I think, you know, here on this, on this podcast, um, the act of serving someone, um, is such a, such a giving sort of thing. And, um, it feels like to me, I would love the opportunity to reciprocate service to somebody that has demonstrated service.

Um, in, in so many different ways to me, um, not just in the acts, but also in the way of being and, and their experiences. And so as you started talking, um, Judy Human came to life for someone of I would love to serve a drink too. Yes. Um, and really just, um, have the opportunity, um, to, uh, admire, um, as a, as a human being, as an advocate, as a woman, as you know, all of those things.

Um, and, um, and I, I probably am not alone in that, so I think we'd all have drinks lined up ready for that's ready for her. Um, but, um, but uh, that's really who came, who came to my mind in terms of, um, providing a service for someone that has provided, so services for so many people and, um, for me personally, 

Tim Villegas: absolutely.

Great. Yeah. Great one, Alissa. Thank you. I. All right, Ben. 

Ben Riepe: I'm like, I'm like, which rockstar do I want to? I know, right? Yeah, it was way too good. Uh, uh, Michael Stipe man, I would Oh, nice. Yes. Love REM and, um, and, uh, would just think he would be really interesting if he's, you know, feeling social. Would love to Right.

Hear what he has, has to say about thing. Um, yeah. Or Patton Oswalt would be hilarious. Huge. Oh, just absolute us to talk to of 

Tim Villegas: those. Yeah. These are great. These, these are all great options. All great options. Great job. Yes. Love it. But oh 

my God. 

Ben Riepe: Yeah. No, yeah. I, I, I would, that would be, I would have to be a little bit different, a little bit more, um, social somehow to, to be a successful barista or, uh, bartender.

But, um, anyway, this, it sound it does sound appealing occasionally. 

Tim Villegas: It does. It does. Yes. It's super draining. Super draining. Yeah. Yeah. Emotionally and socially. Um. Fantastic. Thank you so much for indulging me in the mystery question. Um, Alissa Rausch and Ben Riepe, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Thanks so 

Ben Riepe: much. We appreciate all you're doing. Thank you so much. Thank you. These, it's a gonna a great series. We appreciate it. 

Tim Villegas: That's all the time we have for this episode of Think Inclusive. Now let's roll the credits. I think inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas I handle the writing, editing, design, mixing, and mastering.

This podcast is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Our original music is by Miles Kredich with additional tunes from Melodie

a big shout out to our sponsor, IXL. Check them out at ixl.com/inclusive. We truly appreciate each and every one of you who tunes in. We'd love to hear how you are using our episodes. Are they part of your teaching toolkit? Are you sharing them with your school administrators? Drop me a line at tvillegas@mcie.org and let me know.

And hey, if you're still with us this far into the episode, it probably means that you love, think inclusive and the work MCIE is doing. Can I ask a small favor? Help us keep the momentum going by donating at our website mcie.org. Just click the button at the top of the site and chip in $5, $10, $20. It would mean the world to us and the children in the schools and districts we partner with.

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