Guy Stephens
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Guy Stephens: [00:00:00] We've learned more about behavior through the lens of the brain and the nervous system in the last few decades than we've known in all of time before this.

And as I shared earlier, when you begin to see kids differently, you see different kids. And when you begin to see kids through a lens where you're understanding behavior through the lens of the brain and the nervous system, you have an opportunity to respond differently. And here's the thing. I'm a really big believer and I know there are people that are part of your audience.

In fact, I had a chance to meet some of them when I was at your conference last summer. But that, that are aligned with a lot of this work and have seen the benefit of a lot of this work and the same things that can improve the outcomes for our children and especially our children who are often on the other side of a lot of that punitive and exclusionary discipline.

Again, neurodivergent kids with disabilities, black and brown kids, traumatized kids, the same things that we can do to improve their outcomes can actually improve the outcomes for teachers, staff, and families. But we've gotta be thoughtful, we've gotta be intentional. 

Hi friends. This [00:01:00] is Think Inclusive. I'm Tim Viegas, who you just heard was Guy Stevens, a nationally recognized expert and passionate advocate for ending restraint and seclusion in schools. In 2019, he founded the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint,

Tim Villegas: A ASR. A respected nonprofit dedicated to transforming punitive discipline practices and dismantling the school to prison pipeline. AASR promotes trauma-informed, neuroscience aligned and neurodiversity affirming approaches that prioritize relationships and collaboration. 

Guy is a sought after speaker presenting at conferences across North America and guest lecturing in undergraduate and graduate programs. He currently serves on the boards of the Arc of Maryland And PDA North America, his work is founded in the belief that we must do better for all children and adults, creating safe, inclusive environments that honor.

Neurodiversity and [00:02:00] ensure equal rights and opportunities through AASR and his advocacy guy continues to influence policy and practice inspiring systemic change in education and beyond. Thanks so much for being here with us today.

We appreciate each and every one of you listening to or watching. Think Inclusive MCIE's podcast that brings you conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. And while you are here, make sure to hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you are so that you can keep getting Think Inclusive in your feed.

In this episode of Think Inclusive. I had a fantastic conversation with Guy Stevens about our experiences and thoughts on behavior management in schools. We kicked off things with how we met at the COPAA conference, and then got into challenges and drawbacks of traditional behaviorist approaches like PBIS.

Guy shared insightful stories from his journey as a [00:03:00] parent and advocate stressing the importance of trauma-informed practices and neurodiversity affirming approaches. We wrapped up with practical tips for educators looking to shift their perspectives and improve their strategies, and even had some fun discussing our road trip must-haves.

Overall, it was an eye-opening and engaging conversation about creating more supportive and effective learning environments. Before we get into my conversation with Guy, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this season. IXL. IXL is a fantastic all in one platform designed for K 12 education. It helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress seamlessly.

Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources. Well, that's IXL. As students practice IXL adapts to their individual needs, ensuring they're both supported and challenged. Plus, each learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively [00:04:00] address any knowledge gaps.

Interested in learning more, visit ixl.com/inclusive. That's ixl.com/inclusive. Alright, after a short break, we will get into my conversation with Guy Stevens. Catch you on the other side.

​

Tim Villegas: Guy Stevens, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast. 

Guy Stephens: Hey, thank you so much. I'm, I'm excited to be here with you today.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, absolutely. Um, guy. Uh, guy you and I met for the first time, uh, in person at the COPAA Conference of the Council of Parent Attorneys and Advocates Conference. I believe it was in May. Is that right? Of, uh, 2024, or [00:05:00] was it March? I can't remember now. 

Guy Stephens: I believe March, but I'm not known for my great memory of dates, so, yeah.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. But, um. You know, I had heard about you for a long time and I, I had heard about, uh, the Alliance, uh, for a very long time, and it was just so nice to meet you in person. And then we struck up a conversation and then I realized, oh my gosh, you were in Maryland, which I had no idea. I mean, I work for a, a nonprofit that is in Maryland, and you're in Maryland.

So I'm like, ah, this is, this is great. 

Guy Stephens: Yeah. Isn't it funny how often you, you know, you find yourself. In another state, meeting somebody from around the corner. Right. I mean, I, right. I remember when I met you, I had the same kind of re reaction. I was like, oh, well it's great to meet you. And you're from Maryland.

You know, uh, it's funny, I was, I was talking to somebody in a, uh, local school system recently and, uh, talking about kind of coming out and, and potentially doing some, some work with them and, uh, it's really exciting to work with a local school. Because often like our work is like all around the country and all around the [00:06:00] world.

So to me it's exciting to, uh, have some of that back home in, in the state of Maryland, 

Tim Villegas: right? Yes. Um, and so I want to, I wanna tell a. A, a story, not, it's not really a story, it's more just like my experience when I sat in, um, it was a session that you and, um, oh gosh, I'm gonna forget her name. Is it Connie?

Uh, Connie 

Guy Stephens: Persike. Yep. 

Tim Villegas: Connie Persike. Thank you. And then, uh, the person from, uh, CPI. 

Guy Stephens: Uh, Susan Driscoll. She's Susan D's the president of CPI. 

Tim Villegas: Yep. Yes. And it was a session and I, I think I was so struck. Uh, it was all about reframing behavior and, uh, you know, thinking about that, the, the science of, um, of, you know, why behavior happens.

And, uh, I've been, you know, I've been going on this journey for a long time as a, as a former special education teacher. Um, I [00:07:00] was trained a certain way, just like many people, uh, in, uh, you know, behaviorist principles, ABA all that stuff. And it took a while, but by the end of my time in public schools, I was much more

aligned with thinking like, okay, behaviorists principles, um, are certainly the, it's like that's the majority of how people think, but there's another way to think about behavior. There's another way to think about the why of behavior, and so. Really kind of, uh, expanding my knowledge and then I sat in your session and just some, just some things jumped out at me.

Like, um, actually, what about the, how the brain works and, and what is going on inside of your body, uh, in your brain when a person experiences trauma or maybe even like, remembers a trauma, right? And how that [00:08:00] affects, uh, behavior. And so. What I'd like to start off with is, you know, I've gone through this journey of like re-imagining what I think about behavior, challenging behavior.

Was there a time in your life that you viewed challenging behavior through a behaviorist lens and then moved on? Or had you always kind of been skeptical of that? Like framework. 

Guy Stephens: You know, I, I'd like to say that I was always skeptical, but that's just simply not the truth. I mean, the truth of the matter is that that many of us have been raised, uh, in families and attended schools where behaviorism and, and behaviorism again, is really kind of the science of behavior that looks at behavior, uh, through the lens of conditioning, through things like operant and conditioning through, uh, the lens of to change a behavior, you'll use rewards or consequences or other things to.

Kind of change or manipulate behavior. And, and many of us were raised that way, and many of us may [00:09:00] still raise children in that way as well. Um, you know, like you said, um, Tim, I, I've been on a journey, I've been on a journey as a parent. Uh, I've been on a journey now, uh, as somebody that has, um, kind of changed, uh, very late in my life, changed a career path to do work that I, I feel very passionate about.

And, and, and there's been a huge journey there as well. But, you know, I, I'll, I'll share with you. That. Um, you know, again, when I think back to my own childhood, there was a lot of, you know, reward consequence behavior. You know, if you do this, that's gonna happen. Uh, a lot of that, right? Uh, I even, uh, attended, um, a number of years attended private schools and, uh, um, I can share with you and, and this is not something that excites me, but I mean, I was subjected to corporal punishment as a kid.

Uh, I remember doing things that should never have led to an adult hitting me, uh, in a school that, that, that was my experience at six, seven years old. Um, as a parent, I. You know, parenting is a journey, and I [00:10:00] remember when, you know, my, my kids now, so I, I have a son who is now 19, uh, who is really related to this work I'm doing, and maybe I'll touch on that later.

Uh, I have a daughter who is 15. Um, you know, both potentially neurodivergent, uh, you know, one of them of course, um, you know, was, was diagnosed at a much earlier age. And at any rate, you know, as a parent, my, my son was my, my first child. Um. Gosh, don't, I wish I knew the things then that I know now, right? Um, this is truly a, a journey, but what I'll tell you is as a parent, I began to learn things early on.

You know, my, my son, um, my son was identified, uh, kind of through child find when he was fairly young, uh, with some pragmatic speech. Uh. And language goals and, and also a little bit of a speech delay. And, uh, we were in, uh, with an IEP fairly early on in, in his, um, academic career. And, uh, you know, my son was my, my first child.

And, uh, you know, there, well, I [00:11:00] would say there's no good book on parenting, but I, I disagree with that. Now. I think there are some good books now, like, uh, Dr. Mona Delahooke Brain Body Parenting, one of my favorites. One I recommend for parents all the time, or, uh, Robin Gobbels, you know, um, you know, supporting kids with big baffling behaviors.

I mean, there's some great things out there now, but, you know, starting off as a parent and a parent of a, uh, neurodivergent child, um, there were things that I began to learn along the way and, and the things that I began to learn on along the way. Um, later made a lot of sense to me as I learned more and more, but I, I'll give you an example.

So when my son would sometimes become dysregulated and, and have, you know, what we would've said as a, a meltdown, you know, you, you said the word kinda challenging behavior. Um, I don't even really call it challenging behavior anymore. I often call it like, you know, stress behavior or, you know, kind of understanding through a different lens.

But you know, very early on, I remember when he would have a difficult time and he would really. Um, you know, be, be having, um, you know, kind of a, a meltdown for lack of a better way to [00:12:00] put it. Um, the things that I did in the early days, and, and I'm not proud when I look back and think about how I might have responded or the things that might have been part of what we were doing, but I learned some things fairly early and, and one of the things that I learned that was really important was when he was really upset, when he was having a hard time.

If I took a step backwards, if I made myself smaller. If I use a calming, soothing voice. My demeanor had a lot to do with where the situation would go and, and when I first got on this journey, I'm not proud of, of the way that I sometimes responded. You know, I would respond very top down and assume that he was intentionally behaving in a certain way.

But when I began to realize what a big impact my, uh, you know, I, I had on this situation, it was really transformative. And I remember my wife, like, she's like, well, I don't get why he's different with you. It wasn't that he was different with me. I was different with him and, and we developed a really good rapport that suddenly we began making some really [00:13:00] positive progress.

But early on, you know, it, it was much more assuming intent, being punitive, you know? Um, and, and you know, that changed fairly early along because I realized that those things weren't working. But even in school, you know, when he was in school, uh. There's a whole lot of kind of behavioral approaches that are very prevalent in our schools.

Um, even though in theory people have shifted away from a lot of the punitive things, they've been replaced with rewards, right? They've been replaced with incentives. And I happen to be in kind of the Alfie Kohn, um, uh, end of, of rewards and consequences. They're actually both very similar rewards and consequences.

They're really two sides of, uh, the same coin. You're, you're kind of. Saying to someone, if you do this, I'm gonna do this to you. Or if, if you, if you do this, then you'll get that. Um, external motivators aren't the best way to really help kids, but they're very common. So I remember as a parent, like, you know, a teacher saying, well, what is he like?

You know, we'll find an incentive for him. And I remember my [00:14:00] son, oh gosh, the things that, that are done in schools today, were done then are done today. Like having these behavior tracking sheets that all day long the child's supposed to mark off a color or how they're doing. And, you know, then talk about it with, with a staff member.

And you know, imagine having a really bad day and every hour during your bad day, you had to kind of reflect on a moment how badly you were doing and all the expectations you weren't meeting. And not only then have to talk about it, but then take that piece of paper home and then share it with somebody else.

So not only are you feeling bad and disappointed, but then you, you, you know, go home and you have to share that with somebody else. The things we often are doing to kids in the name of behavior, a lot of it's really harmful. So the short answer, after I've given you a long answer, is. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this has been a journey.

You know, I, I wish I knew some of the things, um, when I first started my journey as a parent, um, that I know now about kind of behavior and looking at behavior differently. But I think the important thing is always to approach wherever we might be. Whether you've been in a profession [00:15:00] for, for 10 years or 20 years, or a parent, wherever we might be.

Always be open to the possibility that we can do better. You know, I, I frequently use the Maya angelou quote, right, which is the do the best you can until you know better, and then when you know better, do better. When it comes to approaches around behavior, I'm a firm believer that we can do a lot better than behaviorism, and it's often the catalyst for big behavior, and it often leads to those things that lead to.

You know, things that I care a lot about, like restrain, seclusion, suspension expulsion, punitive exclusionary discipline. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm reminded of something else that you said during the session about. About that. All the things you just mentioned, the, the punitive part of, uh, of how behavior support sometimes happens, um, or is implemented the trauma, right?

Mm-hmm. So it's traumatic for the student, but it is also traumatic [00:16:00] for the adult. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that, that was felt very deeply in me. Because as a person who is trying to support kids, um, and you've been told to support a student in a certain way, and sometimes that way is, um, you know, is, is not great, uh, for anyone, uh, that all of those emotions, right?

And all of those things that I just, it brought me back to how awful it feels. To be put in that position. So not only is the student experiencing this horrible situation, um, because, because we're implementing, you know, support in a particular way, but also the adults are feeling that way. Mm-hmm. And so I think that that really struck me.

Um. Um, as, as just powerful. 

Guy Stephens: Yeah. Y you know, it, it, I'm always, um, [00:17:00] you know, uh, to know that resonated with you means a lot to me. And, you know, I, I have a, a diagram that I created at one point, I call the kind of the trauma discipline cycle. And, and part of that cycle is that if we look at kids. That are more often on the other end of a lot of punitive and exclusionary behavioral, you know, discipline.

If we look at the kids that are, that are more often on that cycle, we're very often talking about children with disabilities. Neurodivergent children, black and brown children, kids with a trauma history. If we begin to look at what's in common there, a lot of the kids that are ending up, you know, a, a lot of the kids that are having difficulty meeting the expectations in a, a classroom or in a home.

A lot of these kids are kids that have some trauma, and there's a huge intersection with disability and trauma. Neurodivergence in trauma. Being a neurodivergent individual in a neurotypical world that is not designed for you. Can make the world itself somewhat, sometimes very difficult and traumatizing.

So if you look at that common denominator of trauma being [00:18:00] something that we see in a lot of kids that are having concerns around behavior, what we know about trauma today is that trauma changes the brain. We know that trauma changes the brain in such a way that it leads humans to be hypervigilant. It leads humans to be a little less likely to feel safe and secure.

And when we don't feel safe and secure, when we're hypervigilant, we're far more likely to have kind of stress related behavior. And what very often happens in kind of a school or even home sometimes is when a kid is having a behavior which may be caused by. You know, kind of trauma by stress, by not feeling safe.

When a child has a behavior that might be big and baffling and you can't understand why that behavior's coming from somewhere. And what often happens is that an adult meets that situation and says, okay, well I need to demand their compliance. I need to, I need to make sure that they do what I want them to do.

And if you take any dysregulated human. And you, you approach them by demanding that they comply [00:19:00] with you. You begin to put more demands on them. Maybe it's go sit here or go do that. What happens is you push them further down that continuum of dysregulation. And very often what we see in the work that we do, because we focus a lot on a lot of the punitive exclusionary discipline, but it's that, huh?

Attempt to help a child who's dysregulated that actually leads to further dysregulation. And that further dysregulation may result in a child that goes into a fight or flight response. And that fight or flight response, that's an autonomic response, you know? And what happens, of course, when we have that fight or flight response, you know, our prefrontal cortex, the thinking, logical, rational part of our brain, it goes offline.

And we're responding. We're responding come from kind of a survival type of instinct. And you know, it's at that point that a child might go running out a room or knock something out of a desk or hit or push or do something, and that very often results then in some kind of discipline. It could result in a restrain or seclusion, but it could result in some other form of discipline and discipline itself when we're talking about punitive discipline.[00:20:00] 

It can actually be very dysregulating and it can be very traumatizing. So what we end up doing is we end up causing trauma on top of trauma and, and that leads to more hypervigilance, more behavior. So many of the things that we're doing today commonly not only aren't working, they're probably leading to more behavior.

But that cycle, like you mentioned, that holds true the adult as well. You know, adults that don't feel safe. And, and, and there's a lot of reasons why. I mean, there's a lot of challenges. I'm very empathetic towards the, the challenges for teachers in the classroom. Um, but an adult who is dysregulated, uh, they don't feel safe.

They're more likely to have a stress response as well. And if they, you know, let's say that a situation ended in a restraint, for instance. That is very traumatizing for the adult. There is nothing at all pleasant about holding a child in a restraint. Um, and that can lead to more trauma for the adult. So, you know, when we think about being trauma-informed, when we think about the impact that this all has, we've gotta think about the adults and the children, both.

It's really critical. 

Tim Villegas: Can you give us an idea of how [00:21:00] idea, uh, big of a problem, uh, seclusion and restraint is, uh, right now? Um. Yeah, and I don't know the, the best. I don't know. I don't, I don't know if that's the right way to an ask that question, but, 

Guy Stephens: okay. Well, um, yeah, and, and, and quantifying can be difficult because mm-hmm.

The best data we have is not very good. But, but let me, let me go up a level and say, you know, first of all, just say, you know, for anybody that may not be aware. When we're talking about restraint and seclusion, we're, we're generally talking about physical restraint and sometimes mechanical restraint. But a restraint is where, you know, a child is held in some way to prevent them from moving freely on their own.

Now those restraints, uh, can look like a lot of different things, but Those restraints. Often when a child is dysregulated, when they occur, uh, they might look more like something you might imagine happening in a law enforcement interaction where somebody is being held or being held down to the ground.

And, you know, there's different forms of restraint. Um, and restraint is [00:22:00] a, a very strong physical intervention. And, and one of the things you've gotta understand about physical restraint is that it can lead to not only trauma, but significant injuries and, and children have died being physically restrained in schools across the nation.

And, and unfortunately, Tim, I'm not talking about one or two kids. I'm talking about if you go over the last decade and a half, hundreds of kids that have died in schools being physically restrained, and if you look at it through that lens, you've gotta understand that putting hands on a child to restrain them,

It's the use of potentially deadly force. And if you look at the data, what we know is the kids that are more often restrained and secluded are children with disabilities. Neurodivergent kids, black and brown kids, kids with a trauma history. Very young kids. It's more likely a 6-year-old autistic child.

Being restrained, a non-speaking, 7-year-old autistic child being restrained. And when you look at it through that lens of, of children who have died, you've gotta keep in mind that the use of restraint is a use of potentially deadly force. And when do you do these things? Unfortunately, they happen more often than they should.[00:23:00] 

And one of the problems here is that we have no federal law around restraining seclusion in schools around the nation. Not to say there haven't been efforts, there have been efforts going back to 2009 to to get federal law. Uh, there was a report that came out by the Government Accountability Office and the report, the, the title of it always sends a Chill Up my spine, but the title of the report was Restraining Seclusion, selected Instances of Death and Abuse at Public and Private Schools and Treatment Centers.

A spotlight got shined on this a number of years ago, and the federal government, uh, there were efforts to pass federal law. They have just not come to be over the years now, states have started putting laws in place over, over the years that kind of passed, and some states have better laws. Some states have, you know, laws that aren't so great.

Um, so, so that's restraint. Seclusion is, is putting a child in a rumor area against their will and not letting them out. In theory, what that looks like is a child who's dysregulated. Being forced, usually restrained taken, put in a room, the door is held shut, uh, and they're in there. There might [00:24:00] be an adult outside saying that, you know, you can't come out until you calm down.

The rooms are sometimes padded, sometimes plywood, sometimes cinder block. There is nothing calming or therapeutic about being put into a room against your will. Kids go in those rooms, they scream, they yell, they bang on the, the walls. Um, they might urinate or defecate. That's not intentional, that's a stress response.

Um, kids after, I don't know, 20. Minutes. Maybe they, they put their head down, they slouch down. You know, they, adults say, oh, they've calmed down. That's not calm. You're seeing a child that's going into a, a shutdown phase. You know, when we become so overwhelmed by stress, we have a fight or flight response.

If you can't, you know, flee, you can't fight, we will sometimes go into that shutdown response. Kids even sometimes dissociate when they're in there. So, you know, that kind of defining restraint and seclusion. Our belief at the alliance is that seclusion putting a kid in a room or area against their will and not, we should never do that.

I don't think, I don't think one instance of of seclusion is justifiable. We should not be doing that. [00:25:00] Absolutely not. We have entire states now, uh, including Maryland that prohibit that practice in our public schools. Um, I. Restraint should really be exceedingly rare if you only restrained a child in a situation that really had a high risk.

And that high risk is defined in, in federal guidance as imminent serious physical harm, which means a potentially life-threatening situation if you only ever restrain a child in that kind of situation, would be exceedingly rare. It's not. And the truth of matter is the situations where restraint happens.

They're not. They're not, they're generally not. Those life and death situations, they often begin around a compliance issue. Hmm. A child is given a demand, they're unable to meet, they're having a difficult time. They begin to become dysregulated. The adult sometimes in an effort to help, but continues them down that road of dysregulation.

We shouldn't go from. Coloring it on the wrong side of a piece of paper to getting restrained. But that kind of thing happens. So how big of a problem is it? Well, you know, anytime you seclude a kid, it probably shouldn't be happening. That's [00:26:00] my opinion. Uh, and, and that's our, our opinion as well. But, you know, restraint should be really rare.

Now, there is data out there, and the data out there is from the federal government as part of the Office of Civil Rights, uh, data collection, the OCR data collection. They collect data on this every two years on restraint, seclusion, and they have a requirement that states report the use of restraint.

Seclusion. There's problems though, one is. Restrain seclusion could be defined differently at the federal level as it is at the state level. Many states don't require reporting at the state level. Um, when you have different definitions, it's hard to keep track of things. Um, our data on this has shown things, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm gonna go back and, and don't hold me to these numbers, but.

110,000 instances over the course of a year, uh, 120,000, uh, instances over the course of a year. Um, but the truth of the matter is that the best data we have is off by large measures. Uh, I'll give you an example. Um, at one point, the data for the federal, you know, [00:27:00] collection was something like 110,000 instances.

At the same time, Maryland was reporting about 27,000 instances. Now, I assure you Marilyn was not 25% of the total. Okay. But that just shows you that this data is vastly under-reported, and that's not just my opinion. The Government Accountability office in 2019 came out to the Department of Ed and said, there's problems with this data.

You have entire large districts that are reporting zeros when we know they're not zeros. So the problem is hard to quantify, but the truth of matter is this. Um. Putting a kid in a seclusion room is not something we should be doing, and restraints should be really, really rare. These interventions are sometimes misused, overused, and, and, and they're, they're more rampant than they should be because people don't know what else to do.

And that's the key here. You know, when, when I come here and I talk about this, I get really passionate about it. But this is not to be critical of people that might find themselves in these situations where they're having a, a big behavior in their classroom and they don't know what else to do. What we really have to do is focus [00:28:00] on what that, what that is.

What else To do and you know, from, um, you know, hearing me talk before, I'm a huge believer in going upstream around this, right? This isn't just about what do we do in that moment when a kid is really dysregulated. It's about trying to understand why is the kid dysregulated? What is the difficulty they're having?

We often have expectations around behavior that not only are not developmentally appropriate for kids. But they don't take into account, you know, what we know about behavior through the lens of the brain and the nervous system. They don't really take into account, uh, the impact of trauma or neurodivergence.

So we, we often find that adults have expectations just that aren't really grounded in reality. And when we push those expectations in the name of compliance. That's where we see a lot of problems. So, uh, in my mind, the problem is much larger than it should be because these things should be exceedingly rare.

Um, but there's a lot of under-reporting of data. So if you talk to any parent who's had this happen, uh, for every instance that might have been reported, they can probably [00:29:00] tell you three that weren't. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah, yeah. Um, you, you talked about what we, what we should be doing, uh, to support. Uh, learners and, uh, how we can better support like the social emotional development and, uh, keeping kids safe.

Um, so I'm, I'm gonna, this is how I'm gonna phrase this question, uh, currently. Uh, a a a lot of schools, I don't know if it's the majority, but a lot of schools use some sort of school-wide behavior system. Uh, and I can just talk about the school districts that are in, you know, my community, uh, the, the school that my kids go to.

Uh, they're steeped in, uh, positive behavior interventions and supports. Um. Many schools, uh, over the last, you know, decade, 15, 20 [00:30:00] years, uh, are steeped in this, um, kind of positive behavior support. Um, so I've asked this question, you know, to a bunch of people Before, but it, it's like when you have a system that is already set up and you have a school that it's already set up to, to do some of this stuff, um, what do you tell teachers that maybe wanna try a different approach but are stuck with having to use this, you know, reward system?

Mm-hmm. 

Guy Stephens: So, um. You know, again, I think, I think you, you know, that, um, I have a lot of concerns around a lot of the traditional behavior approaches and, and these are approaches that really became prevalent a hundred years ago, you know? Mm-hmm. Uh, we're talking about the 1920s, 1930s, 1950s, the work of people like BF Skinner, uh, kind of this conditioning, uh, type of, um, you know, and, and there's a [00:31:00] lot of, and I'm holding up air quotes here, kind of evidence to support a lot of these approaches now.

Evidence, uh, you know, we can get into ev what evidence-based means, but there's, there's actually some real concerns when it comes to evidence. Uh, you know, what you're trying to prove, how you're trying to prove it, what it is, in fact, that, that you're, you're stating, uh, PBIS is, um, well intentioned positive behavior interventions and supports.

It has a great name. It sounds like a basket full of puppies, right? And okay, well, we're gonna look at behavior through a positive lens, and that's gonna be great. Um, and at its heart is a framework, right? Is a, is a kind of a tiered frame intervention framework. Um, however, what is often kind of filling that framework are interventions that are heavily based on behaviorism.

There's a lot of, um, you know, husky bucks and dojo points and pizza parties and a, a lot of positive incentives. Um, you know, like anything else you could probably, you know, break it down and find, okay, well these are positive [00:32:00] elements here. May, maybe there's some things here that are, I. That are good, that you're doing, you know, making clear expectations and things like that.

Uh, my, my problem with PBIS comes in the fact that much of it is based heavily on behaviorism and, and there's a shift that needs to happen here in, in my, uh, opinion, and that's away from these behavioral approaches that are all based on kind of conditioning reward and consequence and, and moving into an understanding of behavior that is informed by neuroscience.

That is trauma informed. That is neurodiversity affirming. That is, that is relationship driven. That is collaborative, right? We, we need to move away from these things that aren't working. And, and what I would say is if you, you begin to break some of these things down, um. Again, rewards. Um, there's a whole lot of research out there.

Uh, my, my friend and colleague, Connie Persike, who you mentioned earlier, she wrote a great article for us at one point called The Dark Side of Rewards. I encourage people to go look that up. It's one of our most popular articles, but it gets into the research behind the problem with rewards, because when I say a reward, everybody goes, oh, well that's positive.

We, we work for money. [00:33:00] Right? You, you get paid. And, and that's, you know, the truth is there's a whole lot of research that goes into what some of the, um, downfalls of rewards are. Uh, you know, they, they lead to very fixed mindsets. They lead to feelings of being controlled. They can cause you to lose intrinsic motivation when you're doing something for a thing and not doing it because of, you know, kids are naturally curious.

Kids wanna learn. We, we take that away from them if we try to incentivize everything they're doing. Um, so there's a lot of research around the problem with rewards. And what I would say is a lot of these programs like PBS are very heavily, uh, implemented. Using those things now, I've had people over the years try to talk me, uh, out of my, my opinion here and say, well, you know, it's not all about behaviorism.

And I remember somebody giving me kind of this, uh, manual, it was a PBIS uh, uh, some documentation, and it didn't take me long to get to the foundation's, you know, based on BF Skinner's work. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like, well, yeah, it, but it is, it is, it is these things, you know, I, I take things like, um. You know, pizza parties, right?

Um, let's say [00:34:00] you're gonna have a PBS event and kids earn their lanyards, and then if they earn their whatevers, they, they get to have a pizza party and, and have a celebration. Um, what happens is the kids like my son that don't, didn't, didn't have the ability to meet those expectations. He wouldn't enter his lanyard, he wouldn't go to the pizza party.

The kids that went to the pizza party were the kids that already had the ability to meet the expectations that were there. Um, what you weren't seeing at the pizza party were people that were like. I was gonna do this, but I really like pizza, so I'm gonna make a better choice. I mean, it's kind of ridiculous if you really break it down.

The pizza party did not change the behavior of a, a child in that school. They're like, oh, well, because I really like my pepperoni, you know, I'm not gonna go do that thing I was gonna do. And, and the kids that are excluded, well, what does that say to them? My son was fortunate enough to have a teacher at one point in a school that was using a lot of PBIS.

It would, would essentially make sure all of her kids earn their lanyards, right. Uh, because she didn't want them to be excluded. [00:35:00] And an exclusion is a, uh, powerful, harmful agent for children. Um, and there's a lot of exclusion that already is happening to many of the kids that, uh, we're talking about. So what I would say is there's a lot of positive intention behind programs like PBIS.

I've seen people try to use it as a framework and bring in different kinds of interventions. We will no doubt see evolution, you know, evolution in terms of seeing more words like trauma informed and neuroscience and things like that. And, and that may happen over time. But what I would say is that if you were to talk to a lot of educators and say, well, how's that going for you?

How's that PBIS working out for you? Um, that's probably all the answer you need. 

Tim Villegas: Uh, you are so right about the, uh, the pizza parties, the, um, you know, the. Well, I, I'm trying to, I'm trying to not say the thing at my kid's school because I don't want the identifier, but it's like, you know, the, uh, [00:36:00] I'm gonna use your Husky one, you know, the Husky days?

Yeah, the husky bucks, the panda points, the, you know, all that stuff. Panther dollars, whatever they are. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you get, and so maybe there's like a special day that you use those Right. Uh, to purchase whatever, you know, on a particular day. Um, I know for, I know for our kids, um. It was very much like they, um, are motivated.

They, they, they're, they're the kids who already are gonna earn the stuff. Right? Right. Um, and so I, I, I've tried to have conversations with, with my, especially my middle schooler, um, I'm like, do you think you really, do you think you really need. The rewards to do, to behave right? Or, um, do you just, do you just like them?

Are you just the beneficiary of these rewards? Because, because you already are behaving, you know, and so, [00:37:00] um, I don't, I don't think that there was any really big epiphanies there, but I think that it was, I'm just trying to help them understand that like, you know, there are kids who don't have the skills to.

Achieve those expectations, and I think that's what you said. Yeah. I, I think that's what I heard you say about skills. Like if we think of behavior as, as skills, it's just they don't have the skills to meet those expectations yet. It means you have to teach those skills, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's something that you have to, to actively work on that like, uh, explicit instruction or whatever.

Um, and, uh, and then. I, I think you said Dr. Ross Greene, or maybe, maybe you didn't, but, uh, he's along the same lines as far as like kids do well if they can, right? Absolutely. Yep. Yep. So, yeah, if if it's a, a matter of a, of a skill development, then why are we going to punish [00:38:00] or withhold something from a student who hasn't learned the skill yet?

Right, right, 

Guy Stephens: right. Yeah. Right, right, right. Absolutely. And again, you know, when you, when adults begin to understand behavior differently, you begin to see behavior differently when you see behavior differently. There's an opportunity to respond in a different way. And when you respond in a different way, it makes all the difference in the world.

Um, Dr. Stewart Shanker, who I think really highly of, uh, wrote a book called Self Reg, uh, has done a lot of work with a organization called The Merit Center. Um, you know, he says, um, you know, you see a child differently. You see a different child. A lot of this, you know, we, we put a lot of behavior on kids.

You know, think about it. A kid is having a difficult, what time? What do they do? Well, maybe it gets to the point where they do a. Functional behavioral assessment and, and someone comes in and observes and, and then they, they kind of come back and they think about, okay, well what, what was the antecedent that led to this behavior?

And what, what was the behavior itself? And, and, and what was the consequence of that behavior? And, and let's develop a plan to try [00:39:00] to change or modify that behavior. And an adult comes up with a plan, often it's a reward, uh, or some type of consequence. And, uh, you know, you're assuming intent. You're assuming the behavior's intentional when you're doing that, and what I would say to you is that far more of the behavior than you realize is not intentional.

And that tracks along what we know about brain development. It also tracks along what we know about kind of the, the brain and the nervous system. A lot of our behavior is not top down kind of cognitive, okay, I'm going to do this. And in fact, if you look at brain development, you know, when is our brain fully developed?

Uh, 25, 30. Somewhere in that ballpark, it varies. Um, the last part of our brain to fully develop is a prefrontal cortex. The, the kind of thinking, logical, rational part of our brain. Children are not miniature adults with fully developed, you know, rationale, executive function, all, all of these things. And when you begin to add on trauma neurodivergence and things like that, we often have expectations of kids that are not appropriate.

[00:40:00] And we, we look at things as if kids are making choices about things, when in fact, a lot of behavior is what we call bottom up or body up. Our brain and nervous system are designed to keep us safe, and if you've experienced trauma, if you're a neuro divergent, you may have a more sensitive. Threat detection system, you may have a more sensitive nervous system.

Kids may seem to have behavior that comes outta nowhere and it doesn't, it's somewhere, it's coming from somewhere. Um, but you know, very often that happens because they have a more sensitive nervous system. And that is based on experiences. It's based on, you know, uh, differences, individual differences as well.

So I think one of the shifts that's really important, you know, I've sat in and, and I've, I've told this story before, but I mean, I've sat in IEP team meetings. And you've, you probably, uh, have had similar experiences or talked to some that have, where teams talk about a kid's behavior and they talk about what they're doing, and they begin to use words like manipulate and, and, you know, attention getting and, you know, avoiding, and, you know, the, the, the, you know, the [00:41:00] non-preferred task and all of these things and, and, you know.

If you listen to these things hard enough, they'll, they'll talk about the child as if this child is lagging in almost every potential category of development. Yet somehow this child is a criminal mastermind who has manipulated all of the adults around them, who is gaining the attention to their peers in masterful ways and doing all these things.

And I've, I've sat and I've listened to them and thought. I'm not smart enough to do the thing you're, you're accusing my child of doing and my child is six years old and autistic. So, um, you know, but, but that's how we think about behavior. Very often people think about all behaviors being a matter of intent.

It is not much of our behavior is in fact a stress response. So that's why I said earlier, like. I don't even, even sometimes talk about things like challenging behavior. It's often behavior that's coming because, you know, we, we don't feel safe or we've experienced trauma or we have individual differences that, you know, we're having a hard time when demands, demands themselves can lead to a stress response.

Tim Villegas: That is a great point. [00:42:00] And something, um, like, I don't think I've ever characterized any adult's behavior as challenging. You know what I mean? Right. So it's almost like we give the benefit of the doubt to the adult because Right. If there's, you know, an, an adult that is, um, experiencing a stress response.

Right. And having these, having, and we all have them behavior. And we all do. Exactly. Exactly. Um, but I'm not going around like, well, you know. Um, that's challenging behavior, right? And that's challenging behavior. You, you usually go like, oh, well, like, what's going on? Right? Right. You know, like, what's happening?

Well, 

Guy Stephens: curiosity. Curiosity is the key to so much of this, but the other thing we don't do to adults, I. Um, and, and, and maybe things are different, you know, in, in your life. But, um, you know, I, I can't think of a workplace that has a clip up chart for the adults in the workplace. Oh my gosh. To say, oh yes. Hey, [00:43:00] Tim.

Tim, you're have Tim. You really need to go clip down. You know, the, the way, you know, I heard you talking to that guest earlier and, and, and you need to go clip down. Imagine if we did the things to adults that we do to children, and, and there's a bigger problem with that because we do a lot to children that we shouldn't do.

Even like bodily autonomy, right? Um, you shouldn't pick up a, I mean, you shouldn't pick up an adult without consent, right? You shouldn't pick up a child without consent. Yeah. Um, we often do a lot of things to kids that, that really we shouldn't. And of course we, we live in a nation here where corporal punishment is still allowed in 17 states.

Um, you know, you're allowed to hit a kid in the name of discipline. 

Tim Villegas: God. Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, yes, yes. Can I just say, I'm not sure if I'm gonna include this, but I'm gonna say it anyways. Um, there are faith communities, you know, and I'm not sure if you are a particular faith community, but I certainly am, uh, you know, uh, have experience being in a faith community mm-hmm.

Where the, the, the, the leader of that particular community, [00:44:00] faith community, uh, talks about. Um, corporal punishment as a really positive and good thing for, you know, parents to do. Mm-hmm. And parents should, you know, and, uh, it was like, I'm just, you know, trying to keep myself together. Uh, well, 

Guy Stephens: well, and, and that happens, I mean, Oklahoma.

Oklahoma was, was working on some legislation to prohibit corporal punishment on children with disabilities. Now, I think they should prohibit corporal punishment on all children, but, but nonetheless, they were working on this. Yeah. And, and the arguments that came up were religious. People would quote pieces of scripture and say, you know, that, you know, this is what scripture says.

And often it was a misinterpretation of what the scripture actually says. Uh, rods are for guiding, not for, for hitting, but nonetheless, um, you know, there's a lot of, um, misuse of, of that kind of, um, you know, and, and, and I mean, the truth is, I mean, we, we know better. If we know better, we should do better.

[00:45:00] And, um, it's always disappointing to me to see, um, faith used as a way, I mean the word discipline. Really interesting, the word discipline, if you break it down and you look at the roots of it, it comes from, uh, a word that means to teach. And if you were to think, like, think about like what, what you study disciplines, right?

We're gonna study the discipline of this or that, um, to teach. And if you think about discipline, meaning to teach when, when someone is not meeting the expectation or not able to do the thing that they need to be able to do, we should be teaching. We should be instructing, we should be helping, we should be skill building.

We shouldn't be having a adult imposed con a consequence on them. Now, does that mean that there's never any consequences in life? Well, yeah, of course there's natural consequences that happen as a result of things. Um, but you know, the adult imposed kind, um, are typically not going to be helping. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah, yeah.

Um, I think that that whole thing, it, it's just also a fundamental misunderstanding of. [00:46:00] Of how we, of how we, um, learn to be, learn to be ourselves and to be safe. You know, like, uh, uh, I've. What, what I, what I say, what I try to, when I'm trying to frame this, uh, so that, so that people can kind of maybe put themselves in, in another person's shoes is, um, like you may have behavior change because of a negative consequence, right?

Or because of a punishment. Um, but, uh, how often does that lead to long lasting life change? You know? Right. And so, you know, when in your life have you changed your behavior, um, for the long term, right? So what, what, like, how, how, how did that come about? Was it because of shame? Was it because of punishment?

Or was it because maybe someone [00:47:00] invested in you and really taught you a better way to do things? Right. And I think that's what we're really talking about here. 

Guy Stephens: Yeah. No, I, I absolutely agree with you and, uh. You know, I think that, um, you know, I mean it's like rewards are, or consequences. People are like, well, they work well.

It depends on what you mean by work. But if you talk, if you wanna talk about, can a reward sometimes get you short term compliance, I. Sometimes it'll get you short-term compliance. Is it really going to change or better equip a human to meet a challenge in the future that they're having a difficult time meeting or don't have the skills to meet or whatever the case may be?

Um, and the answer to that is no. Um, you know, so if your goal is short-term compliance, you're not gonna get very far with it. And, and rewards lose effectiveness as well. Um. You know, and punishment is the same. I mean, there are people and, and you know, I mean, kids that, uh, suffer a lot of abuse that eventually are able to, I mean, they dissociate, they turn it off.

They, you know, they become numb to it. Um, you know, the trauma that can be caused by, um, you know, I. [00:48:00] Abuse is, is what it can be, uh, can last a lifetime and, and lead to higher instances of drug and alcohol use and, uh, a greater chance of any up going down the school to prison pipeline. So the long-term impact of, of, you know, physical

Discipline, and I'm kinda holding up air quotes there, but, um, can be immense. Yeah. 

Tim Villegas: Um, there, there are a lot of educators that listen, um, you know, all the way from, you know, teachers to principals to district administrators. Um, do you have any, some practical next steps if someone wants to really take action and be like, you know what, I really.

All this is resonating with me. I really do want to learn more. I want to do better. Um, what are some suggested actions for educators to take? 

Guy Stephens: Sure. Um, so I guess the first thing I'll say is that when I started this organization, um, gosh, we're going on six years now. Uh, when I started the Alliance, um, you know, I started it because of personal experience with, with my son.[00:49:00] 

Um, and, and our organization began to grow. And of course we focus on restrained seclusion, but more broadly we focus on, you know, a lot of the, um. Kind of exclusionary and punitive discipline, restrain, seclusion, suspension, expulsion, corporal punishment. Um, and, and even above that, it's about kind of often the things that are done to kids in the name of behavior.

Um, as our organization grew, um, we were joined by a lot of educators, a lot of teachers, paraprofessionals, a. Superintendent superintendents, school supervisors, occupational therapists, a lot of folks. And, and what brings us all together is kinda this idea, which is, you know, how can we do better? And, um, you know, again, I I, I share that quote from Maya Angelou a lot, but it, this is not, this is not about judgment.

This is not saying what you're doing is wrong. It's a really tough time to be a teacher. It's a tough, uh, time to be in a classroom. For lots of reasons. And, and it doesn't seem like anybody's doing educators any favor by making their job any easier. Um, it is a really difficult time and I, I feel that, and I [00:50:00] appreciate, uh, people that kind of dedicate their life to, to wanting to make a positive difference for kids.

So, you know, um, know that, you know, the things that we share and the things we talk about, this is not about saying, well, you're, you're doing it all wrong. Or, um, it's about, we have information today. We didn't have. You know, a number of years ago, uh, the 1990s were the decade of the brain. We've learned more about behavior through the lens of the brain and the nervous system in the last few decades than we've known in all of time before this.

And, and as I shared earlier, when you begin to see kids differently, you see different kids. And when you begin to see kids through a lens where you're understanding behavior through the lens of the brain and the nervous system, you have an opportunity to respond differently. And, and here's the thing. I, I'm a, a really big believer and, and I know there are people that are part of your, your audience.

In fact, I had a chance to meet some of them when I was at your, your conference last summer. But, um, that, that are aligned with a lot of this work and, and have seen the benefit of a lot of this work [00:51:00] and, and the same things that can improve the outcomes for our children and especially our children who are often on the other side of a lot of that punitive and exclusionary discipline.

You know, again, you know, neurodivergent kids, kids with disabilities, black and brown kids, traumatized kids, the same things that we can do to improve their outcomes can actually improve the outcomes for teachers, staff, and families. But we've gotta be thoughtful, we've gotta be intentional. We need school leaders that when they bring in this ideology, is bringing it in in a way that is cross-cutting, meaning that, you know, um.

You know, I talked about kind of our five principles earlier, and these are the things when people say, well, what do we do differently? It's, you know, trauma-informed approaches, neuroscience aligned approaches, neurodiversity affirming approaches, relationship driven approaches, collaborative approaches, those same things need to be brought into the staff, right?

You can't simply become trauma-informed and have a trauma-informed approach to supporting kids if you're not trauma-informed with your staff. Mm-hmm. If you're not understanding. [00:52:00] You know, there are teachers out there that have suffered plenty of trauma from being in the classroom, doing work that they love and that they feel strongly about.

Um, and we've gotta begin by making sure we're supporting those educators. So, more practically, what do they do? I mean, you know, I just wanted to kind of paint this picture that it's important that these changes that we bring about are really kind of systemic and, you know, again, that, that we're considering the needs of the teachers and the staff, um, you know, as well as the children.

But you know, there, there are a lot of different approaches out there and, and what I would say to you is that, you know, I care less about kind of which approach you choose and more about the fact that you go on the journey and you become curious. Uh, I'm a huge proponent of curiosity. Uh, there was a, a quote from a Ted Ted lasso episode, you know, be curious, not judgmental.

When we're curious and when we begin to ask questions. I think there's a tremendous potential for finding better ways. And you know, for me it's, I. If you're [00:53:00] not on the journey, go on the journey. Read a book like Beyond Behaviors from Dr. Mona Delahooke. Or, you know, you mentioned Ross Greene's work. Yeah. Uh, Dr.

Lori Desautels. Um, you know, there's a lot of, um, um, gosh, Robin Gobbel's, um, understanding kids with big baffling behavior. There's some really great resources out there. Begin on the journey. Take a step. Don't feel like you've gotta change everything overnight, but, you know, dive into the neuroscience of behavior.

You know, if you can shift your ideas around behavior. Everything else changes. So, you know, what I would say to an educator is, is look for, look for opportunities. Um, and, and you know, some of this is the, the audible, you know, um, book on audible that you're listening to on your commute into work. Or, you know, maybe it's not the PD that you're getting in your school right now, but go on your own journey and, and find like-minded people.

And you know, I, I love, we, we had a, a little conference recently. I. We had, we were doing a, a conference on, uh, neuroscience and neurodiversity affirming approaches. It was [00:54:00] virtual. We had 550 people from across the world that joined us for that. Educators from New Zealand and Australia, United States, and Canada.

Uh, and, and I love when we, we find, you know, these people that are on this journey and really, um, leading the way to. Making huge improvements. That, that, again, um, you know, I'd like to see joy return to educators, you know, in terms of teaching. Like it's a, it should be a joyful profession and there's a lot that needs to change, but I think there's some hope.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. 

Guy Stephens: Yeah. 

Tim Villegas: Um, guy, let's wrap up and do a, uh. Uh, a mystery question. What do you say? 

Guy Stephens: I'm, I'm game for anything and, and I'm sh sorry if I talk too much and didn't get to all the questions. So I will gladly take a mystery question. I'll be, uh, listen, concise if I have to. Like 

Tim Villegas: I've said other guests, this is a podcast, so you could be as long-winded as you want, you know?

Yeah. Well, you better watch that. All right. All right. This is, uh, one of [00:55:00] my favorite, uh, one of my favorite segments. I just, uh, I really just enjoy this. Okay, so here we go. I'm gonna pick, uh, off the top of the deck. I. I mixed them up off the top of my deck and we will both answer this question. All right.

If you were going on a road trip, what are, this is where I've never, I didn't even know this was in here. Oh. If you were going on a road trip, what are the three must haves you couldn't leave without? That's an interesting question. So here we go. That that, that is 

Guy Stephens: an interesting question. If you were going on a 

Tim Villegas: road trip, what are the three must haves you couldn't leave without?

Oh my gosh. Alright. Who's 

Guy Stephens: first on this? Is it you or me? 

Tim Villegas: It doesn't matter, you know? Do you have 'em off the top of your head? Do, uh, 

Guy Stephens: I've got two of 'em, so I'll let you go first and I'll see if I get my third. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. Uh, what is a must have? Um, hmm, hmm. I am trying. Well, okay. This isn't really like a, um, the, I just, the first thing that popped in my head was a [00:56:00] playlist.

So, uh, whenever we go, we actually go on a lot of road trips. Um, my family and I, um, and my wife usually starts it. She'll start a collaborative playlist. My kids are old enough, um, that. Everyone, everyone has their own Spotify account because, you know, 'cause it, it's, it's just a thing, right? It's better that way.

It's better that way. It's better that way. Yeah. So, uh, she'll start a collaborative playlist and so we will start like, you know, days in advance, we'll start like adding songs to the playlist. And so it'll be like, you know, the. You know, Villegas road trip 2025 or whatever, and then we'd all like add. And so as we're driving away, we start the playlist and you know, it's just a random, you know, so we go.

So it's a must have. We must have a collaborative playlist. So that's number one. What, what about you? 

Guy Stephens: Uh, so I, I was actually, music was the first thing that came to mind. And as you were sharing that, I was thinking about a trip I took with my daughter, uh, last summer. And, uh, we were driving down to Florida, which is a pretty good drive from here.

And, uh, we, we didn't have a playlist, [00:57:00] but I. We, we both have kind of our own devices with our own playlist, but we, we began playing songs and it was a fun little thing we were doing. Um, she would play a song and it would remind me of a song and then I'd play that song. So, you know, she might've been getting something back from the eighties from, you know, whatever she was playing.

Yeah. But it was kind of fun to have that, you know, connection. And the funny thing is, um. You know, my daughter's very musical. She plays, uh, you know, uh, plays ukulele and bass and sings and, uh, likes to record music as well. And, um, you know, there was a long time that my musical interests were kind of locked in.

Uh, you know, the, the decades I grew up in and over the last couple of years, um, I think because of my daughter, like I've been discovering a lot more new music. And it's kind of fun because, you know, when I was young, I was very into music. I mean, as a kid, I. I spent a lot of money at Tower Records, if you know what that was.

Oh my gosh, 

Tim Villegas: yes. Yes. Tower Records, uh, warehouse, cd. Um, what, what was the other place? Um, there's so many. Yeah. Yeah. Was 

Guy Stephens: Sam Goodie and [00:58:00] Waxy? Maxie? Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, they're all regional I guess, but, uh, yeah, those are the ones I remember around here. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah, so many CDs I spent, I spent all my money on CDs basically.

Uh, I did too. I did too. Yeah. Um, so another, so this isn't really a must have like quote unquote must have, but it's like a more of a must to do. So I. Anytime we go on any sort of extended, you know, road trip, I, I, uh, make my family stop at Bucee's. Are you familiar with Bucee's? I am. I'm familiar with Bucee's.

Okay. So there's, we, uh, I actually, so I, we, I work for a nonprofit in Maryland, but I live in Atlanta. Okay, in Georgia, so there are a couple Bucee's in Georgia and there's one in Alabama and we've definitely stopped on our way to fam to visit family in Mississippi. So anytime there's a Bucee's, my family knows we must to go to Bucee's and I have to get their, uh.

Candied, uh, pecans. 

Guy Stephens: Oh, nice, nice, nice. Oh my gosh. 

Tim Villegas: [00:59:00] It is. Yeah. You know, I think, think we had our, 

Guy Stephens: our first stop at Bucee's, maybe on that trip I was talking about with my daughter. Uh, you know, I remember a passing Bucee's before and, and not stopping there. And, you know, 1, 1, 1, 1 time we, we went to stop there and for whatever reason there was some prop plumbing, plumbing problem and like.

None of the bathrooms were working or something like that, which, oh, no. I mean, you know what that place is like. Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, I think our, our first stop was on that recent trip. Um, yeah, so, so my, my number two was gonna be snacks, you know, like having snacks. You don't Yeah, yeah. There you go. You don't have to stop.

And, um, you know, but, but, um, yeah, I was, I was assumed I could find that, but um, yes, snacks are definitely a must for that road trip. 

Tim Villegas: Yes. Uh, now what else would be a must? Um. Another, well, another thing that we would do too is, um, and we don't do it as often anymore, but we used to stop at, like, if we were going across states, we would stop at like the, the state rest stop.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And like take the picture in front of the state sign. So [01:00:00] that was always a big thing. Um, we haven't done that in a while. 'cause we, the last road trip we did was a couple years ago. So. We, we may end up doing something this summer, but we'll see. 

Guy Stephens: Yeah. You know, um. You know, I, I don't know about my firm number three, but, but I think, um, having some time for spontaneity is a really good thing as well.

Mm. Um, my, my, uh, my daughter, I remember, uh, one year, you know, kind of on a trip with her, um, she likes, uh, boba tea, bubble tea, and, and everywhere we went, we'd have to try to find a, a boba place. It was like, okay. Let's pull up, uh, the maps thing and see if we can find one. Okay. We gotta go at, you know, 45 minutes out of our way, but we're gonna do that.

I, I did a road trip with a, uh, a good friend of mine a number of years ago and, and our mission was, as we drove through Carolinas, was to try different kinds of barbecue. So, oh yeah. I, I think we, we stopped for, uh, way too many, uh, pulled pork sandwiches on that trip. But, uh, I think having some spontaneity is always fun on those trips.

Tim Villegas: That's great. That's good. Uh, well thank you so much for, uh, indulging me [01:01:00] Guy. I just love the mystery question so too. Well, you know, I've 

Guy Stephens: not been asked the mystery question before, so, you know, I got a, I have a lot of answers that, that are ready. Um, but that was, that was not one of 'em, so it was kind of fun.

Tim Villegas: Guy Stephens, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast. Uh, really appreciate your insight and, uh, this was a lot of fun. 

Guy Stephens: Thank you. I enjoyed the conversation.

Tim Villegas: That's all the time we have for this episode of Think Inclusive. Now, let's roll the credits. Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I handle the writing, editing, design, mixing and mastering. This podcast is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Our original music is by Miles Kredich with additional tunes from Melod.ie, A big shout out to our sponsor, IXL.

Check them out at ixl.com/inclusive. We truly appreciate each and every one of you who tunes in. We'd [01:02:00] love to hear how you are using our episodes. Are they part of your teaching toolkit? Are you sharing them with school administrators? Drop me a line at tvillegas@mcie.org and let me know.

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