Jen Newton Master === Jen Newton: the knowledge that gen ed teachers have about special education is next to none. And it's not their fault. They just haven't been given that opportunity to learn it. And they don't get PD on it, and they don't, they're very much told like, this is our thing, and it's a secret private thing that you can't see, watch, witness be a part of. Right. And until we blend this better. Because there are a lot of goals and activities and interventions that could be happening in the gen ed classroom with the gen ed teacher as the interventionist if we supported their expertise development, right? It doesn't all have to be by an intervention specialist. It doesn't all have to be pulled out. It doesn't all have to be separate. But we aren't sharing that information in an active way, and I think that is by design in some ways. Hi, friends. It's Tim Villegas. This is Think Inclusive, and who you just heard was Jen Newton, an associate professor at Ohio University. Dr. Newton's research interests include anti-racist, anti ableist education, early childhood inclusion, and inclusive teacher preparation. She regularly presents locally, regionally, and nationally on a range of inclusive educational topics. Dr. Newton's 25 years in inclusive education began as an early interventionist and an inclusive pre-kindergarten teacher prior to pursuing doctoral studies. She's currently a teacher educator and an inclusive consultant and researcher. In this episode, we explore the challenges of preparing teachers to effectively include students with diverse learning needs in general education classrooms. Jen and I share our personal experiences highlighting the significant gap between the ideal of inclusive education and the current reality, which is often shaped by rigid teaching practices and legislative mandates. We emphasize the critical need for comprehensive teacher training that encompasses modifications, accommodations, adaptations, and a deep understanding of learners with extensive support needs. Our discussion also ventures into the political aspects of education, including the underfunding of the individuals with Disabilities Education Act, and the common misconceptions about the role of the Department of Education. We advocate for the necessity of inclusive licenses for teachers and highlight the importance of collaboration between general and special educators. I wrap up my conversation with Jen, with her giving some book recommendations for educators and I ask the mystery question. Now before we get into my conversation with Jen, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this season IXL. IXL is a fantastic all-in-one platform designed for K 12 education. It helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress seamlessly. Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources. Well, that's IXL. As students practice IXL adapts to their individual needs, ensuring they're both supported and challenged. Plus, each learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively address any knowledge gaps. Interested in learning more? Visit ixl.com/inclusive. That's ixl.com/inclusive. All right, after a short break, we will get into my conversation with Dr. Jen Newton. Catch you on the other side. ​ Tim Villegas: Just, this is just what it is, you know? Jen Newton: Yeah. And you'll make me sound smart, right? Tim Villegas: I, yeah. I try to make everyone sound like perfect, not perfect, but like, you know, articulate. Um, what did I write in the email to you? 'cause I was, I've been like trying to, um, Jen Newton: a little bit about teacher prep, right. Preparing. Oh, that's right. Tim Villegas: That, that's what we wanted to talk about. Right. Jen Newton: Yeah, and I've been thinking too about one, like specific angle of that is how to prepare all teachers for specifically how to accommodate and modify. Hmm. Yeah. That Jen Newton: we just don't have the skills. Yes. We just don't have the skills. People don't have the skills to, um. So the idea is there, right? The idea maybe we might think like, okay, I want to do this and yet everyone in the class is doing mean and median and mode, Uhhuh Jen Newton: and I, and she isn't there and I don't know what she should be doing then. And that doesn't seem hard to me, but it is. It is definitely tripping up. The inclusion of a lot of kids. Tim Villegas: Yeah. And, um, I don't know how it is in Ohio, but if a student has like, really, like their, their assignments are significantly modified, uh, sometimes those students are on alternate assessment. Or on a certificate track for high school. Right. And that is another barrier. Um, because the teachers may even like, want the student in their class, like, that's not the issue. It's okay, what do I do? Like, do I give them the, the tests that everyone else gets or do I not? And if I don't, then what do I give them? Right. Jen Newton: And who should be creating that thing that I am giving them. Tim Villegas: Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Where does it Jen Newton: come from and, and who is designing it and you know, who, who's providing the accommodations or the supports for it. Um, and I think in my mind, in a lot of ways, it's just our very rigid thinking about what teaching and learning looks like. Um, because to me it doesn't feel that big of a barrier. Mm-hmm. Jen Newton: Because in my mind I'm like, inclusion doesn't have anything to do with everyone doing the same thing at the same time in any typical classroom, I. Everyone shouldn't be doing and can't be doing meaningfully engaging in the exact same thing at the exact same time. That's just not realistic. What did we learn from NCLB? Nothing. Right? So I, Jen Newton: I, I, I thought we all understood that a hundred percent can never be a hundred percent, but. That does seem to be the idea of how do we adapt, modify, create opportunities for kids to engage meaningfully, but at their own pace or in their own way. Seems to be a huge barrier. Um, and I think though that where I get sort of, I. Hung up in the conversation about it is that it feels very all or nothing. Like if you're not doing exactly what the class is doing, then you should be somewhere else doing what someone else is doing and that we can't quite conceive of how different people could be doing different things in one space Tim Villegas: and, and so to bring it back to teacher prep, I think that. Uh, that's, that's part of the problem, right? Is that we're teaching our teachers that that isn't, um, that isn't an expectation. Right? And I, I don't know. That's, that's like a, a super gross generalization because I, the, my role in teacher prep is very, very limited. So, um. And, and we've started, by the way, Jen, so, you know, um, uh, my, my role in teacher prep is that I teach, um, two different classes for. Um, educators who are receiving an alternate certification to be a special educator in the state of Georgia. It's separate from my work at MCIE. This is just kind of a side gig. Um, but I do bring all the experience that I had working in a, in a system in Georgia, and then also all of the professional learning that we do at MCIE. I try to kind of, uh, mesh those together. And give the, the, the teacher candidates, um, a little bit more to think about on the inclusion side of things. Uh, Georgia's not super inclusive. Uh, we've had, you know, things like words like equity being scrubbed out of our, you know, uh, standards, uh, teacher preparation standards. So it's not, it's like kind of treacherous waters, but, um. That's kind of where I'm coming from, but, and so, Jen, what about you? Where, where are you coming from in this teacher prep, um, lens Jen Newton: I. So I am an associate professor of teacher education and Ohio University. Um, I've worked at three different institutions doing specifically teacher preparation for in program development, right? Developing teacher education programs to meet licensure standards, both at the state and accreditation level. Um, so matching programs. Like curriculum and field experiences with accrediting bodies and state requirements. And so I have a, a pretty, I think, sound knowledge and understanding of what we have to do and then what we can do. And I think that's a piece that the general public maybe misunderstands quite a bit. so people will ask me why we need inclusive teachers. We need inclusive traffic preparation. If I'm talking in public spaces about what I'm doing in a specific class, they'll say, I never had a class like that. I never learned something like that. No one ever taught me those things. We don't teach inclusive, um, ideology in preparation. I was a special ed teacher. I was taught intervention only. I was taught pull out only, or I was taught resource room self-contained only. Um, gen ed teachers are, you know, they say I had one class, right? I wasn't taught how to modify, how to adapt. All of those things are true. It's not because your, um, program doesn't believe in inclusion. It might not have, I'm not saying that there's a lot of, you know, super progressive inclusive programs, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that our state legislators. Build our program credentialing. So, you know the first thing, we're recording this a week before the election. So the first thing is to remember that education and teaching is very political. We all work as civic professionals. We're accountable to a bunch of governing bodies, our school boards, our local, um. Our local representatives, our state representatives, our federal representatives. And so because of that, we have to be a little bit in tune with the, the political discourse around education. Because I live in Ohio, um, we have right now three licensure bands, right? We have a PK through fifth grade is our elementary license, and then we have four through nine, which is our middle, and then we have seventh through 12, which is called a y, a adolescent and young adult. Last year we had a new bill pass that pretty much eliminated middle, and so we now have a PK through eight and a four through 12 license. So as teacher educators, we are charged with the task. Now our department of ed doesn't have standards built. For those new licensed bands. Right. But we now have a task to redesign all of our licensure programs, all of our courses, all of our assessments, our key assessments for accreditation. All of these pieces have to be rebuilt to meet that standard. We still have only four years. We still have to figure out how to teach reading, how to teach math, how to teach content area. 'cause now we we're in the middle grades, right? So we also have to do content area, plus we have to teach kids how to read. All of these things have to be addressed in one license ban. Now. People are gonna look at that and go, that's nuts. Why would Ohio University be doing that? That's not a decision we made. That's a decision that our, our, um, representatives made and now we have to enforce it. So when we have a K 12 special ed license. That says anybody can be a teacher of a student who's five, or a student who's 21, who's labeled with having a disability. And that student could be a student with really high support needs, who is, um, in need of communication supports, who is in need of medical support, who needs a variety of different supports. Or this could be a student who has very minimal educational needs. You need to be prepared for all of these kids, every single one of them, and we're gonna give you one license in four years to prepare for it. Right? That is not a decision that educators make. Those of us who, who are trained in this field, we don't say that's best practice, right? That's not what we're doing. Right? If, if Jen Newton: I got to decide, like if someone said, Hey, Jen Newton, you wanna be the the Secretary of education. Under the new administration and I was like, sure, that sounds fun. What would I say? Well, I would say we need inclusive licenses across the band. I want every student or every teacher to be prepared and licensed for special ed and gen ed. 'cause I want one system. And I want them to be prepared to understand IDA, understand special education, understand IEPs, understand accommodations and modifications. Understand UDL under, right, all of these things for every student, plus content knowledge and state assessments, and all of those pieces for whatever grade band you want. So if you wanna be a PK three teacher, I want you to be an inclusive PK three teacher. Mm-hmm. Jen Newton: And that, and we can build licenses that way. There's some states are trying, you know, some programs are trying to do that. Not as many as we'd love to see you and I would love to see, but that's the future. I mean, that's where we're headed because there is no firm line between what student should be receiving and fully comprehensive general education curriculum and what student needs support RTI became a way of trying to support those students. That didn't completely fit into, um, what we have now as a special ed model, but we're students who needed support and we know that's not a hundred percent effective at because the line is too blurry. We aren't people who fit into boxes. And so building a workforce of teachers who can be more nimble. And work more effectively with a, a wide range of students is, is where teacher prep has to go. But we are nowhere near that right now. Tim Villegas: No, and there's like, every state is different, right? Uh, like you said, Ohio has their own thing and Georgia has their own thing and California has their own thing. And um, and so it's really difficult to have any sort of, um, parody. Among states. And so back to being political because this is going to publish after the election. So, you know, whatever happens, happens. But, um, what kind of drives me crazy about the narrative about the Department of Education, uh, which, uh, some people have been very vocal about abolishing or, you know, dismantling is that. There's this, like, this fundamental misunderstanding that de the Department of Education has any teeth to do anything in any particular school district, right? And so this demonization of the Department of Ed, when really they're there to support states and districts, um, nobody from the Department of Ed is going in and making anyone do anything. Um, so. Like, I wish that the Department of Ed could do that, but it doesn't. And uh, and then also the Office of Special Education Programs is part of the Department of Education. Uh, you know, the uh, uh. Office of re rebil, I'm not gonna say it right, so I'm not gonna say it, but, uh, like all of those, um, those services and supports, um, and where even IDEA is kind of like, if there's any accountability, it's the Department of Education. So what are we gonna do without the Department of Ed like. It, it drives me a little, it drives me a little batty, but, um, back to my point. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, it, Jen Newton: I was just gonna say, I think people really, generally speaking, again, I think that, I say this a lot. Um, I wish that there, like, I wish your podcast would get picked up by like, the pod Save America net, like crooked media or, you know, a, a big. Conglomerate that has millions of people listening because no one is talking about education on a huge platform, and there's so much misunderstanding about public ed and how it works and what, um, the broader sort of accountability metric is or how, how it runs. Right. The Department of Ed, um, is, is a really. I tell my students when, at the beginning of every semester we talk about the whole history 'cause they just don't know like how the Department of Ag got started. You know, when it started, why it started, what happened with the nation at risk, why it, why it survived. The Reagan era, right when it originally, and then how Republicans have worked to try to dismantle it since. And, and Reagan wanted it gone. And then he became sort of a champion of it after doing this deep dive into it and recognizing that actually having an educated populace was important and that it, it is bad for America to not be smart. And that teaching kids is an important investment in America. Um, but, but the Department of Ed is fundamentally a way to funnel supports and money into states. And I I'm with you. I wish that there was a mechanism for enforcement. Um, I tell my students all the time, right? There's no IEP police that are coming around knocking on doors. Uh, I wish there were, I really wish there were, because the mechanisms that are in place and the ways in which, because of the courts like Schaefer v we put in place that the burden of proof is on the one bringing the, the suit. And that is often families, right? And so they're always at a disadvantage. If your child's rights are being violated, you're most likely going to have little to no recourse in order to fight that, unless you are very well positioned. And so the Department of Eds. You know, the abolishment of the Department of Ed will hurt all of us because mm-hmm. The distribution of funds is, people wanna talk about how underfunded IDA is. Imagine what it will be without the 14% that we get now. Tim Villegas: Right. Right. Exactly. Um, are you aware of the I believe it. I, I don't, I don't know what happened with this, but I think it was Tennessee that was trying to, um. What do you call it? Basically say, no Department of Ed. We do not want any of your funding. Did you, were, are you aware, aware, aware of that news story? Jen Newton: Yes. Where they tried to sort of like secede from the Yeah. Yeah. Tim Villegas: Department ed? Jen Newton: Yes. Yeah. I don't think it worked. I think they weren't able to. I don't Tim Villegas: think so either. Uh, we have some, uh, colleagues. I'm gonna shout out the di Diverse Learners Cooperative, uh, in Nashville. Uh, we got to meet them. Um, last year. We, we worked on a, uh, project with them, uh, called Inclusion Today. And, and so they're the ones who actually told me about it. And I was like, I had no idea. I had no idea that states even wanted to do that, um, or could, you know, could try to do that. And so I. It's just, uh, it, again, it's just amazing the disconnect, um, that I think that the general public has about what, how education is funded, uh, and how it even works, right? Um, like even, uh, I'm like, this is like way, way off topic. But like in Georgia, there was a, you know, speaking of like ballot measures and stuff like that, there was, uh, like a homestead exemption exemption act. Um, basically saying that right now, um, someone, I need a fact checker, somebody needs to fact check what I, I'm about to say. But basically it's like you have families. Um, who like mine, who have kids and send their kids to public school, we pay taxes. And some of those taxes go to fund public schools. Well, if you are over a certain age, um, your property taxes do not fund public schools. They're like, Nope, sorry. It's like, like there's a cutoff. Right? And so, uh, there was like some sort of, uh, ballot measure that was gonna change the rules in Georgia. Um, so it's like. Again, like no one really talks about how we fund public schools. Like if I ask some person, I, if I asked my neighbor, I don't think that they would know. Right. But it's all there, it's all public information. Um, like the vast majority of how we fund public schools is locally. So in our city, in our county and our state, we receive very, very little money from the federal government. Yeah. Jen Newton: Yeah. I also think that one, one thing that keeps repeating itself that we haven't gotten the word out about, and I think part of this is just because of the timing and you know, education policy, like 2004 is the last time that the individuals with disabilities education, right? Yeah. Reauthorized. And I think it's, we can't say that enough, right? So anyone who listens to your podcast needs to be reminded of it, and then they need to remind everyone in their lives of it. Because 2004 was a really long time ago. Yeah. Yeah, it was. And we know a Jen Newton: lot of things about mental health, about trauma. We need to rethink some of our definitions. We know more about autism now. Like if you look back at the autism definition that we're using in, in IDA. It is, it is insufficient, um, emotional disabilities, the, or how it's emotional disorder in IDA is a problematic definition. It is, it is continuously to this day being used to harm children. It is being used to funnel kids into the, um, into the. Legal system and, and on into prisons. And so those definitions have got to be reworked. And I know that there's a lot of, um, a lot of conversation about the reauthorization and the administration that we want overseeing it and the conversations that are happening. And I know within my field there's a lot of debate, and I understand that, and I'm not weighing into that right now. But what I'm saying is 20 years for a bill like this to be going without reauthorization is problematic. But the, um, every Student succeeds act. Is was reauthorized at the end of the Obama administration, which for those of us who were, you know, were alive and well during that time. Doesn't seem like that long ago, but it was that long ago. And a lot of people are still operating under the No Child Left Behind Act. They still think that NCLB is the law of the land in education. And because of that, sometimes we have an idea about what the role of the federal government is and that it's this punitive body. Mm mm-hmm. Right. And that, um, it's hyper testing and then penalizing public schools. And that if we didn't have the federal government and the Department of Ed involved in schools, we wouldn't have all this testing and we wouldn't have these punishments. And I think when every Student Succeeds Act was authorized, it was at the very end of the Obama administration. We had other. Fish to fry, so to speak, right? Mm-hmm. We were mm-hmm. Moving into the Trump era and things were changing really rapidly. So we were also at war on a, on a couple of fronts. We were in Afghanistan. There were things people were worried about related to that. Um, we don't get a lot of movement on education, policy and law when we have, um, foreign war is happening. And that's just historically been true. And so they, it didn't, they don't want to push out a lot of press releases about a reauthorization of an education bill, right? When then, when, sure. We're dealing with some of these things happening on a more national level. Because of that, a lot of people didn't get the memo. So those punitive things that we were dealing with during the Obama administration because of the way that the Bush administration wrote, no Child Left Behind. They're no longer in place. Right? We no longer have safe harbors. We no longer have annual, yearly progress. We never, we don't have those like things anymore, but a lot of people don't know that. Hmm. Jen Newton: And so we don't hear about them, but we still hear about testing, we still hear about over testing, we hear, still hear about assessment. And so there still feels like there's this punitive thing that Department of Ed is pushing down on schools. And I think that's Tim Villegas: a really good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that Jen Newton: there's a disconnect there in. The way in which people are feeling about the federal government's involvement in their local schools. Tim Villegas: I remember when I was teaching, uh, in, in the, my local school district here in Georgia, the College and Career Readiness Performance Index, I think is the, you know mm-hmm. There's some sort of acronym, um, that. That kind of, uh, the idea was that that replaced the annual yearly progress, but, um, like you still hear about quote unquote failing schools. Right? But isn't that more of a state? There's report Jen Newton: cards. Tim Villegas: Yeah, it's like a state, like a, a state system, not necessarily a Department of Ed system. I, I, like, for instance, in Maryland, uh, there are certain states, certain districts that are labeled as. I don't, I don't have, I don't remember the term right now, but, uh, they're labeled as this district needs to, uh, improve, right? Yeah. And so either, uh, you know, funding or technical assistance or whatever is provided for those particular districts. Um, but to your point. It, the, uh, the, the Feds aren't doing that. It's a, it's it's state. So it's, again, it's always coming back to whether we're talking about teacher prep or we're talking about, uh, assistance and support for, um, you know, schools that need to improve or whatever. It all comes back to. The state legislature makes the rules, and then the local school districts or entities that are in that particular state are the ones that are implementing whatever intervention, um, you know, has been decided for whatever, whatever area that is. Jen Newton: Right. Yeah. And states have, you know, accountability for the Yeah. Success of their public schools and they report to the federal government. Sure. Yeah. Jen Newton: The states really do have the. The main, the means to manage. And, and that's what we've seen over and over again is that the state school boards, the state superintendents, that those are the entities where all of this, um, rub is sort of coming to, to a head. But people want to look at the Department of Ed as. Having power, it just doesn't have. And again, I think that if we had more of a interest in really talking about the issues of education, um, I do a project in my classes called an UN essay, and students are allowed to like pick a topic that we've talked about in class and then do a deeper dive on it. And a few years back, one of my students picked, um, school funding and in Chicago they. They were, um, what is his name? Um, rapper Chicago Chase Chase. Chance. Chance the Rapper. Chance The Rapper. Rapper. I said Jen Newton: Rapper in Chicago. Chase. Chance I got there. Chance the rapper had started like did a um, his own. Like private school or voucher program or something like that. And had started a funding project for supporting some south side kids to go to different schools, like an art school, something like that. So my students did, uh, deep dive into where his money started and then where it went. They tried to follow the money to see if, you know, if you independently invest money. From in these different fashions, like is philanthropy the answer to like school funding issues? And what they found is that it all goes to the same place, right? It all ends up, like philanthropy doesn't actually solve the problem. Just like we saw with the Gates Foundation, remember when they were investing all of this money, now you have like the Bezos Academy happening all over California, right? There's all of these Bezos academies popping up. They've um, sent me like job. Announcements, like wanting and, and they're paying like $400,000, which I'm like, maybe I could just go work there for that. Wow. Jen Newton: Um, but like, maybe that's not such a bad idea. Um, but it all ends up being the same problem. Mm. Is Jen Newton: that all kids? Need a variety of different supports, some being more expensive than others, and when you eventually have to decide who and how you're gonna support different kids, right? And at some point it comes down to that decision making threshold that what, no matter where your money is coming from, the rubber meets the road and. Private schools have this problem. Charter schools have this problem. Vouchers have this problem, like unless you're going to actively remove kids from your school because they're not toeing the line, which then becomes a discriminatory like a DA 5 0 4 violations, then you're gonna have the same problems as public schools. Tim Villegas: When you, you, you think about private schools, you think about charter schools, any schools that have any sort of, um, enrollment criteria. Um. That can self-select their students, right? Um, you're going to underserved learners with disabilities. Um, and so I think Jen Newton: you see it even with schools that serve from primarily students with disabilities. You still are gonna have Tim Villegas: Oh, Jen Newton: yeah. A student that you say, well, we don't have the means to meet that student's needs here, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean Jen Newton: I've definitely had that experience where a school, like a developmental day school will say we can't meet that student's needs. And that idea that like that's ever an option for any school is evidence that we aren't collectively understanding the task at hand because. There can't ever be an option for us to say, we can't meet your needs here. The, the question always has to be, how can we meet the student's needs here? Mm-hmm. Jen Newton: How can we meet the student's needs here? What do we, as the professionals, the grownups in the room, what do we need to do? What are we not understanding? What are we not getting right, because there's something we're missing and. It could be the environment. I think schools are not healthy environments for a lot of kids, and a lot of kids don't have the coping skills to just suck it up. For the six and a half hours, right? They like their bodies. Let us know that this is not, I love Carla Libby's Canary in the coal mine, um, analogy, right? They let us know that there's something wrong in the environment and they're the ones telling us with their behavior that there's something wrong in the environment or with their bodies or with their, um, actions, but. We are not listening to that. And so I wonder if we think about that language that we use as the professionals or as the adults, and we turn that around to think like, what am I missing? What are we getting wrong? What is he telling me that I'm not hearing? Um, because there has to be a place and a space for everybody to learn. Tim Villegas: I want to, I want to turn our conversation a little bit because I think, um, as, as a teacher educator, you are a teacher educator and I know that there are teacher educators that listen to the podcast, so they may be listening and going, um, I'd really like to know. Like what, how do you prepare your teacher candidates, um, to think differently about education and to, um, be more inclusively minded? Be because I know your teacher candidates, they, they go off and they become teachers, right? They're not working in inclusive schools. No, they're not. So then like, how are you preparing them? Because you only can do what you can do, right? So, right. Like, what are, what are the things that you are doing to help, um, at least get them on the road to start thinking more inclusively. Jen Newton: Yeah. I love that. Well, and I will say too that I, I don't, you know, I'm only as successful as. I'm able to be. Right. Right. Yeah. I can't, I, I think a lot about the ones I didn't get to or that, you know, weren't, um, weren't there yet or weren't open to it because we are all steeped in and we come up in an environment that is really able to. And a lot of students come in. I mean, these are, my students are 20, right? They're 19, they're 20, they're 21. They just came out of schools that are deeply segregated. For the most part, they, that's their experience in school. And so they are sort of not, they, they wanna be early childhood educators, or they wanna be special educators because they want to be. The, in that savior role with students who have disabilities that they, you know, they volunteered in the self-contained classroom and they really liked that feeling of, you know, being the helper and they, they really wanted, they wanna do that as a career. They want people to go, oh, you're a special kind of person. You must be so patient. Right. So those kind of pieces are, are important to unpack. Um, or they wanna be an early childhood teacher because they played, they played teacher when they were kids and all their stuffed animals were really well behaved and they listened and they like let them read the whole story and they always did what they were told. And so when you come into a class like mine, and I'm kind of radical, right, they haven't really met someone like me before, maybe. Not always, but maybe they haven't. Right? So on the first day of class, I'm like, have you, have you heard about me? Have you like, has it, do you have any friends who have had my class? What have you? What do you know already? And so they'll tell me like, yes, no, we know this person in common. And so we talk like a little bit like that to sort of soften things up a little bit. And then I tell them, you know, this is kind of how it's gonna go. And I, we do a lot on social media, um, related to, like in, I, I want them to listen to disabled people. Mm-hmm. I want them to have as much exposure and experience with disabled people as possible, because that is the source of the why. Um, you know, the, the special education from its very root. To today, really in the research is not about disabled people. It is not about disabled kids. It is about a very centered medical model of fixing what's wrong with you and getting you to look. As much like a typical kid as we can get you to look so that you can behave in a way that we can accept at school. And so I want them to listen to how that feels. I want them to get exposed to disabled people's voices and listen to how it feels when teachers are telling you to be different than yourself. How hard kids are working to mask themselves while they're at school and how hard it is for them to meet our expectations when our expectations are sometimes really stupid and really arbitrary and really inconsistent, especially when they have four teachers a day. Right. And sometimes I'm like, put your name on the left side of your paper, and then your next teacher is like, I want your name on the right side of your paper. And then in this class, your number is 12, but in the next class your number is four. And you have to, you know, remember all of these things and you have to put them on the paper the right way. All of that kind of code switching stuff is really, really hard for a lot of students. And then. But we have these expectations that they should be able to do it all. And so I help them think about those things. I also talk to them a lot about what they do to cope as students, and then I remind them that even though they come to a three hour class and they're really tired and they don't wanna be there for three hours and they hope I let them out early, but that they have an expectation that their students will do the right thing for six and a half hours, right. And that we want them, like we want them to. Then we might take away their recess. We might tell them they have to do their math homework instead of going to lunch with their friends, or we might, right? Like, so we, I try to put them in that position again. We talk about what their experiences are with school, that kind of thing. I Jen Newton: also embed a lot of things that I think are important inside the curriculum that isn't directly aligned with the curriculum, because if I'm only teaching them about UDL and adaptations, I can't do that without helping them to understand the history. Like we watch Crypt Camp because they have to understand what disability rights looks like and why it's important, and that helps them understand why universal design is critical. Because if we can't access spaces, we can't access learning, right? And so being able to environmentally access is the, the equivalent in the world as it is in our learning. And so I have to position everything into this like bigger picture idea to help invoke some emotion. And the social justice aspect of it, right? I want you to care about why a kid has a right to be here and to learn, and I want you to feel something when they're removed. Mm-hmm. We talk a lot about belonging, right? And my definition of belonging is always like, kids should ask where they, where they went. If you belong in a class, if you belong in a community, then when you're missing people miss you. When you're pulled out all the time and people expect you to be pulled out all the time, no one ever asks where you went because you don't belong enough to be felt when you're missing. And so I always ask them like, kids have to, inclusion means belonging in the sense that people notice when you're missing. And so they get to understanding what it means. They'll say, well, she's included for X, Y, Z. That's not included. Does anyone notice when she's here or when she's not? That's what I want you to pay attention to. And then they'll say, okay, it's not inclusion because I'm noticing these things. Hmm. Jen Newton: Um, and so a lot of it is like trying to embed those things. Um, my friend Sarah Bash, I am doing this really cool activity and I, um, I wanna tell you about it because one of the things that I work on a lot is their biases. Piece. So we start off by talking. I'm like, super, I am so passionate about this. Like, I, I can, I can, like generally speaking, I can convince paint on a wall that they should be con they should be including people, right? And I can, like, I can make people really sit with it for a second, but then they'll walk into a classroom and be like, well, he can't be here because he's being disrupted. Right. It doesn't, I mean, it doesn't last like to your point, right? Yeah. It's like, it's like you're in front of me and you're, you know, you're like, oh my God, Jen's like, she's changed my mind. And then you go in a classroom and you're like, Jen, who? Right? So Right. Uh, Jen Newton: so we were working this week on the, on our biases and they were writing down Id like reasons why kids can't be included in the Gen Ed classroom. So they write down all these reasons. And then we did Sarah's activity on Monster. But the monster jam activity. So each student like makes squiggly line in four squares of a paper and they pass to the right and make a monster out of that square pass to the right, make a monster pass to the right, make a monster four times, and then they get 'em back. They have this paper with four squares of monsters and they write their like bias of why a student can't be in a little speech bubble coming out of their monster, and they turned out really cute. I know this is an audio platform, but. They made monsters. Yeah. Tim Villegas: Just describe one if you, can you describe one Jen Newton: with a, they made like a squiggle line monster, you know, that they turned into like a dragon monster and it says I'll have to change my lesson too much. Tim Villegas: Oh, that's good. Um, that's really good. Jen Newton: Or one that says he's just too unpredictable and dangerous. And so I, when they got them back and they were putting their speech bubbles on, and then everyone just sort of was sitting there looking at them and I was like, okay, who has a monster they wanna share with us? And I, because I was like walking around, peeking at everyone's monsters and one of my students was like, I don't really wanna say this out loud. And I was like, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? We hear and see these things all the time, but when the words were coming out of this little pencil drawing of a monster, it felt different, right? It made it feel like more of a, more of a bias, more of a critique, more of a negative, more of a, and I think that there has to be a way for us to really sit with the fact that we wouldn't say that about anybody else. You know, we've somehow created this idea that it's okay for us to separate, segregate, disabled people. Yeah. Yeah. Jen Newton: And we haven't made good models for what it means to include befriend, belong, adapt. To allow for meaningful inclusion. And I think, I mean, as a teacher educator, I teach one whole semester with three sections of early childhood teachers of just adaptation where, and I don't think I've figured out yet how to make it really meaningful in terms of how to actively adapt, meaningfully adapt curriculum in the moment because. They, they still are thinking of like, I have a student who has an IEP, so therefore this, and I'm like, it doesn't matter if they have an IEP or not. I want you to look at what their goals are, what are their supports. You can have an IEP for speech and not need it in math. Right. I need you to think specifically, but we have in our mind, like disability, IEP, separate. Tim Villegas: Well, and that's why it's so important for general and special education teachers to be collaborating like that is one of the core aspects of when we, when we're working with, with one of our partners, I. About what inclusion actually means. Um, you cannot, you cannot have authentic inclusion without collaboration between general and special educators. Uh, for that very reason. It, you know, like, just talk about adaptations. Um, you know, like a, a special educator shouldn't be adapting materials without any sort of input from the general education teacher. I. And, and vice versa. The general education teacher shouldn't be creating a lesson plan without the input of the special educator knowing what kinds of needs need to be supported in a particular class. Um, but it happens all the time. Yeah. It happens all the time, like that's like that is what happens. Jen Newton: Or you have the special ed teacher pulling the student and doing whatever because there's no right. You, the gen ed teacher doesn't know what's happening. Outside of the classroom, and then the student comes back and joins, whatever, and there's no communication about what was happening outside the classroom and then what was missed inside the classroom. And so that col and oftentimes that's an administrator issue with collaborative time. That's not given to the teachers. It's, but this is why I feel like we will never solve this problem until we have inclusive licensing because, Hmm. Jen Newton: The. The, the knowledge that gen ed teachers have about special education is next to none. And it's not their fault. They just haven't been given that opportunity to learn it. And they don't get PD on it, and they don't, they're very much told like, this is our thing, and it's a secret private thing that you can't see, watch, witness be a part of. Right. And until we blend this better. Because there are a lot of goals and activities and interventions that could be happening in the gen ed classroom with the gen ed teacher as the interventionist if we supported their expertise development, right? It doesn't all have to be by an intervention specialist. It doesn't all have to be pulled out. It doesn't all have to be separate. But we aren't sharing that information in an active way, and I think that. Is by design in some ways, but every time somebody wants to talk to me about the teacher shortage or the special ed teacher shortage, I'm like, we've done this to ourselves. Yes. I mean, this bifurcation of systems is, is driving people out. I know there are, we have more teacher candidates than we can support, like we we're. We have to cap our program. We have so many students who want to be special educators, but. We don't have enough. I live in Appalachia. We don't have the capacity for enough placements in our community schools and that kind of thing to support more students, but we also know that they turn out because schools don't support them and they do this isolation thing. You get out into the school and you're off on your own and you don't have any opportunity to collaborate with teachers. You can't, you know, build those cooperative lesson plans like you're talking about. And we do all of that here when they're in practice. But then Tim Villegas: it's totally different. It's totally different. Yeah. Yeah. And that was like, that's, that's how, that was my experience. And I went to, I was a teacher, ed, I went through my teacher education in 2003. So it's been 20 years, Jen Newton: right? Exactly. And part of why it hasn't changed, I mean, this is where I get frustrated 'cause we're supposed to be like the innovators and the creators of knowledge. And we're supposed to be like, where it, you know, where it starts or where it, and we can't because we're, we're bound by the laws that, and so if you're in a state like me and you. Where our state legislators aren't pro-public school and they're not pro educator, and they're moving toward alternative pathways and trying to dismantle public schools in various ways. There's no opportunity for us to kind of, you know, try some of these other things that we think might help. Um hmm. Jen Newton: So supporting teachers in that way I think is really tricky. In some, in some states it's like you said, like states are federal law, that every student succeeds act, IDA, those are federal laws that everybody is accountable for. But there isn't, there isn't an accountability metric for those. There's no way of, right. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Right, right, right. Um, before, before we wrap up, um. Is there any message you wanna send to listeners, educators, um, you know, that that could provide some hope? Maybe Jen Newton: so, I mean, I love to talk about this stuff and so I, I would say I'm definitely not hopeless because I can talk about this forever. Um, I think that the successes are in the moment. In the individual little pockets. And I, I'm fortunate to have communication with so many teachers, like all across the country who are amazing enough to send me a message and be like, oh my gosh, you know what happened today? Right? And so. That is very motivating and inspiring to me. Um, I would also say that if you're interested in the politics of teaching and the ways in which teaching is so super political, I would really recommend this book called The Wolf At the Schoolhouse Door. It's by Jennifer Schneider and. What's the other guy's name? Um, Tim Villegas: I don't remember, but they have a great podcast. Jen Newton: Yes, they do. Um, oh, Jack Schneider, I, I mixed their name. Jack Schneider. Yes. Tim Villegas: Yes. Their names Jen Newton: all one. And Jennifer Berkshire. Yes. I put their together. Jennifer Berkshire and Jack Schneider. Um, their book, A Wolf at This, at the Schoolhouse Door. And they do have a great podcast that is called. Tim Villegas: That is called, uh, it's one of my favorites and I don't, uh, I can't think of it right now. Hold on. We're gonna, we're gonna find this out. Hold on, hold on. Have you heard? There we go. Have Jen Newton: you heard? Tim Villegas: Yes. It's a great podcast you should listen to. Have you heard? Jen Newton: It is a great podcast about fixing the nation's public schools and, um, they're super intelligent, bright, bright. Connected, uh, well researched. Really, really smart. And I think they're the only people. They are not talking about special education nearly enough. I wish they were talking about it more, but they are talking about public school. So I think if that's something you're interested in, I think that's a really good, um, place to get more information. And the Wolf at the Schoolhouse door talks a lot about the history of. How we got here kind of, and I think it's really smart because a lot of people just don't know. We didn't learn about it, you know? Yeah. We didn't really learn about like the history we, we learned, like do we. And then nothing else, Tim Villegas: right? Yeah, Jen Newton: right. It's like we all learned about Dewey and then Montessori and then nothing, so, Tim Villegas: right. Yeah, I think Jen Newton: it's really, um, it's a really good book and I really love it and I've read it so many times and I recommend it to everybody. Um, I would also say, if you haven't yet to read Carla Libby's book, troublemakers Lessons and Freedom from Young Children in School. It is, um, one of my favorites and I think it really. Is a profound book about the way we think about kids, young kids and how they're telling us about how our schools feel, um, to young children and maybe that some lessons that we might be able to consider about the way that kids feel. I think it's really important for our students to read. Um, troublemakers. I know this is not a hot take by any means, um, but I would also have students read demystifying disability, uh, what to know what to say, and How to Be an Ally by Emily Lidow. Like, uh, that's an extraordinarily good book for every early career teacher. It doesn't matter if you are. Um, an intervention specialist or not, but anybody who's gonna be an educator should read Emily's book and do a book study on it, and then, you know, have to buy two copies and give it to friends. It is really good at addressing euphemisms if you're still using words like special needs, or if your school uses like the Office of Exceptionalities or something like this. This book is a way that you can like. Be more progressive and push us forward in thinking about how disability is like an identity, right? Disability is a natural form of human diversity. It exists. It's not good or bad, it's neutral. It's okay to say it. It's okay for us to just acknowledge that there are disabled people all over the place and they're also in school and they may or may not need specific sports to help them be more successful at school. So, um, I think that's a good book too, to. Sort of help move people forward in considering the ways in which we're like infantilizing or mm-hmm. Harming disabled students at school. So that's my like, thanks rant. Thanks, Tim Villegas: Jen. And, and if you want, if you want even more, Jen, you can follow, uh, her on, uh, on Instagram. Uh, it's teaching is intellectual. That's the handle. Is that right? Jen Newton: Yep. Tim Villegas: Okay. Jen Newton: At teaching is Intellectual on Facebook and Instagram, and we also have a website teaching is intellectual.com, which could probably use a refresh. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, we all, we all can use a refresh on the web and then, uh, and then you have a newsletter. Yes. Could sign up there too. Yes. Tim Villegas: Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. All right. Uh. Uh, Jen, I have you for a few more minutes. Let's do a mystery question. Jen Newton: Okay. I'm ready. Tim Villegas: All right. Here we go. Where we stop, nobody knows. Here we go. What is the one thing you'll really be disappointed if you never get to experience it? Wow. Wow. That's a tough question. What is the one thing you'll really be disappointed if you never get to experience it? Um huh. Hmm. Jen Newton: Retirement. Tim Villegas: This isn't a comedy podcast, but that was pretty funny. I'm so proud about. That's Tim Villegas: a great answer. Wow. That's great. That is great. I think, um, I think it's travel related. Um, for me, uh, my wife got to go to Alaska. Um-huh. When she was in college. She's a, she's an rn and so in her nursing school they did, um, like travel. Like travel study and so mm-hmm. She, we are both from California and she had a chance to go to Alaska for a few weeks, like an extended, like three to four weeks or whatever. And, um, she said it was beautiful, it was really cool. But she got to, you know, experience like some really. Interesting, uh, cultures and then also just like the terrain and just the beauty of it. And so I would really like to go to Alaska one day. I think that that'd be really cool. There's like a bunch of national park we like, our family loves national parks and so I'd like to go there, uh, like see the Northern Lights, you know, kind of like experience something totally different. So Jen Newton: yeah. Tim Villegas: I just don't know when that would happen. Jen Newton: It's stunning. We went on a cruise when my in-laws had their 50th wedding anniversary and it was right before covid. Um, and it was stunning. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. So that's probably, that's probably what I would say, you know, I want to visit more places than is, than it would be like, um, monetarily possible. Jen Newton: Yeah. Oh, me Tim Villegas: too. Jen Newton: I think travel wise, for me, now that I have an exchange student this year, I think travel wise for me it's going to Spain. Like I would love to spend time now in his home and like with his family. Um, that would Tim Villegas: be cool. Jen Newton: Yeah. Yeah. So, Tim Villegas: yeah. And yeah, just to, and provide a little bit of context. So, uh, you know, uh, for those listening, uh, Jen is a, a host family for an exchange student from Spain. And it's kind of an interesting story 'cause it just, it kinda like all of a sudden happened. Right, Jen Newton: right. Yeah. He came very quickly into our lives and, um. His family lives in Madrid. He's 15. Um, and he is staying with us for the whole year and his family lives in Madrid. And so I would be disappointed if I didn't get the opportunity to go to Madrid and to be stay with his family for a little while. 'cause I talk to his mom a lot and um, I would just love to be able to spend some time with them. I think that would be cool travel wise. Tim Villegas: Yeah. Well, I hope you get to visit Spain. Uh, we went to, we went to Spain, uh, last. Fall for our 28th anniversary and it was fantastic. It was southern Spain. Um, Granada was like my favorite Uhhuh, and uh, if you are, if, if you like food and you like to drink, it's like the best place alcoholic beverages that mean, I mean, Jen Newton: yeah, that sounds awesome. Tim Villegas: All right, I'm gonna, well, my kids are Jen Newton: planning on doing like a euro rail with him this summer. 'cause you only have to be 16. So they, they wanna like all fly back with him in June and then do two weeks of a Euro rail trip. Tim Villegas: That, that would be amazing. I think that would be amazing. Yes. Yes. So Jen Newton: I'm actually just working extra to try to send them all on a trip so they can go. Tim Villegas: What a great mom. I know. Jen Newton: I'm like, wait a second. But I think that would be so cool for them. I mean, that's that's amazing. Tim Villegas: That is amazing. That is amazing. Jen Newton: I think that'd be cool. Tim Villegas: Jen Newton, thank you so much for being on a Think Inclusive Podcast. Jen Newton: Thank you for having me. That's all the time we have for this episode of Think Inclusive. Now, let's roll the credits. Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I handle the writing, editing, design, mixing, and mastering. This podcast is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Our original music is by Miles Kredich, with additional tunes by Melod.ie. A big shout out to our sponsor, IXL. Check them out at ixl.com/inclusive. We truly appreciate each and every one of you who tunes in, and we'd love to know how you're using these episodes. Are they part of your teaching toolkit? Are you sharing them with school administrators? Drop me a line at tvillegas@mcie.org and let me know. And hey, if you're still with us this far into the episode, it probably means you love, think inclusive, and the work MCIE is doing. Can I ask a small favor? Help us keep the momentum going by donating at our website mcie.org. Just click the button at the top of the site and chip in $5, $10, $15, $20. It would mean the world to us and the children in the schools and districts we partner with. Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works. ​