Toni Barton
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Toni Barton: [00:00:00] people can't do what they don't know. we talk a lot about mindset issues as it relates to supporting students with disabilities and inclusive education. but I would argue that for most people, it's not that they don't believe in what we're saying.

Yes, there are some that don't. but I would argue even for those people, it's because they haven't seen it. Or because they don't know how to do it.

Tim Villegas: Hello friends, this is Think Inclusive. I'm Tim Villegas 

Who you just heard was today's guest, a powerhouse in education innovation, Toni Barton. Toni is the founder of Spelligent and a nationally recognized leader in transforming schools through inclusive, equity driven and tech enabled learning models with experience as a teacher, principal, and district leader, she's reshaped instructional systems across K 12 and higher education.

Toni also launched the Inclusive School's Leadership Institute at Relay [00:01:00] Graduate School of Education 

training hundreds of leaders to build anti ableist student first environments. She's a frequent speaker at major conferences like South by Southwest EDU. Has been featured in Forbes and the Hechinger Report Report.

Her book, six Principles for Building a Truly Inclusive School is a must read for forward thinking educators. Toni is here to share how we can disrupt outdated systems and create schools that truly prepare each student for the future. Thanks so much for being here with us today. 

We appreciate each and every one of you listening to or watching. Think Inclusive. MCIE's podcast that brings you conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. And while you are here, make sure to hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you are so that you can keep getting think inclusive in your feed.

In this episode of the Think Inclusive Podcast, Toni [00:02:00] shares her journey from law to education, inspired by her son's special education experience and discusses the importance of moving beyond, merely knowing about inclusion to actively implementing inclusive practices.

We delve into topics like anti exclusionary program designs, creating. Person first cultures and the urgency of data in driving student success. Toni also underscores the critical need for special education teachers to step into leadership roles to bring about systemic change. Before we get into my conversation with Toni, I wanna tell you about our sponsor for this season.

IXL. IXL is a fantastic all-in-one platform designed for K 12 education. It helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress seamlessly. Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources. Well, that's IXL. As [00:03:00] students, practice IXL adapts to their individual needs, ensuring they're both supported and challenged.

Plus, each learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively address any knowledge gaps. Interested in learning more, visit ixl.com/inclusive. That's ixl.com/inclusive. All right, after a short break, we'll get into my conversation with Toni Barton. Catch you on the other side.

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Tim Villegas: Toni Barton, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast. 

Toni Barton: Thank you for having me, Tim. Um, I have listened to and watched clips from many episodes, so I'm super excited to now get [00:04:00] to be a part of this.

Oh, 

Tim Villegas: thanks. Thank you so much for listening. And, um, and actually we've, uh, featured, uh, your podcast in our feed. It, I don't know how many months ago it was, but, um, yeah, and we've had, uh, fantastic conversations related to inclusion and inclusive education, so I've been looking forward to this conversation.

Uh, so, uh, Toni, the, the reason, well, one of, one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on other than that you're a fantastic advocate, uh, for inclusive education and practices, is that you have a, you have a book coming up, um, and. It might be released by the time that this episodes Air Airs, but it's called, uh, six Principles of Building a Truly Inclusive School.

Um, and you said it's for, it's really for school leaders. Can you tell me more about that? 

Toni Barton: Yeah, sure. Um, so there's, uh. Uh, subheading to the title, which is, [00:05:00] um, a Call to Action for K 12 School leaders. Um, and that was super intentional on my part, um, because many people will tell you, okay, we know what inclusive schools are.

We know what inclusive education is. Um. But there's a gap between knowing and doing. And so I really designed this book to be a true call to action. Like we have the information out there, um, in terms of what it's going to take and what we need to do. We just need an impetus to make it happen. And so, um, the tone of the book really is to push leaders to think critically about what's happening in their schools, um, and to commit to.

Change. Um, and that's sort of really like the, the heart of it. 

Tim Villegas: Exactly. And, uh, I've been able to preview the book. It, it's fantastic. It's gonna be a fantastic resource. And something that I really love about the book is that you sprinkle in stories throughout the [00:06:00] entire book. So it's not just like this academic, um, way of approaching this.

You really bring in storytelling, which I think is a, a really big part of changing hearts, hearts and minds. Uh, and if you wouldn't mind, you actually start off, I think it's in your intro, talking about, um, the experience of becoming a special educator and why. Why you even went down this path? Do you mind talking about that?

Toni Barton: No, totally. I would love to talk about that. Um, so I'm a career changer. Um, I went, I actually am a two time career changer. I started off, um, in the business world and then I went to law school and shortly after graduating from law school, um, my son entered elementary school and his first grade teacher called me one day with those.

Concerning with the concerning voice and those words that a parent never wants to or is never prepared to hear, [00:07:00] um, is that I think that your son needs to be referred to special education because he's fidgety. And I was like, what? I was like, what? What does that even mean? I mean, what I know about my son is that.

He's reading chapter books. Um, he loves school. He has lots of friends. So like, what is this whole special education thing? And so I went into a deep rabbit hole around black boys in special education. 'cause I, like I said, I had just graduated from law school and so I didn't know anything about, um, special education, but.

A red flag for me also because he was one of very few black students in that entire school. And so I was like, well, maybe she just sees him be being fidgety 'cause he looks different from everyone else in the classroom. And so that research rabbit hole. Led me to understanding the inequities that exist in special education, identification, placement, programming, and all of the things, um, and what the outcomes look like [00:08:00] for students, particularly I.

Um, black and brown students of what happens to them after high school, after being in special education. And I, um, at that time I was like, no, I don't want those statistics for my son. So, um, at the time I actually lived in a pretty wealthy suburb of Northern Virginia and moved to. Alexandria, Virginia, um, which was a lot.

It's, which is a lot more diverse. And I never, ever again heard another word about my son needing to be in special education. And so that really propelled me to wanting to go into the field. And I became, um, a special education teacher in DC public schools. And I abandoned my law degree to my mom's dismay.

And she's like lost law school and then becomes a teacher. And I've always been, oh man, driven by. Passion and doing what's right and justice. And so that's, that's how I ended up [00:09:00] here and I, I have not looked back since. 

Tim Villegas: Wow. That's that's amazing. Um. And then, so it's interesting 'cause you, you, you become a teacher and then you also realize like just the inherent inequities in the education system period.

You know, so like, you experienced this with your son, um, as, as a parent, as a fam, as a, as like in your family. And then, and then you become part of that system and you're like, and it needs a lot of work too, you know, so like it's, um, and. And you are like, 

Toni Barton: go ahead. Sorry. Sorry to cut you off, but I think No, no, no.

Go ahead. One of the most insightful pieces about that is that I went from being a parent in. A totally different type of school system than where I was a teacher. Right. So you heard me say Arlington, Virginia, right? Yes, yes. Um, to DC public [00:10:00] schools and seeing inequities living in both worlds. Mm-hmm. Um, and so like the Special Education challenge knows, know.

Boundaries. Like it's, we are not bound like by race, by socioeconomic status. The challenge is pervasive across every single kind of a school. And I think that's why it's so critical that we figure out how to leap o the barriers that just continue to persist. And that was like, that was over t that was like 20 years ago at this point.

Yeah. Um, and we're still still challenged by this. 

Tim Villegas: Yes. Yes. Um, and I know, uh, that I know that you believe that part of that solution is inclusive leadership in schools. Um, and so let's unpack a little bit about like, leadership, because [00:11:00] um. I'm a former, uh, public school teacher and it, and was a special educator.

Um, I definitely considered myself a leader in my school and in my district, but I did not, I did not reach, uh, any sort of director or pri principal or coordinator, uh, level where I could really make change. It was more. Um, you know, trying to convince other people to move forward with inclusive practices.

Um, you know, we have a lot of educators that listen who are in that role. Uh, do you have any advice or anything on top of mind, uh, for them to see themselves as leaders? 

Toni Barton: Oh, gosh. Sitting in the seat of a teacher is so hard because you are sitting within a system and your locus of control tends to be [00:12:00] what's happening in your classroom.

Um, and many times teachers can feel stymied or, you know, many, many different ways. And so, uh. What, like the best advice that I can give to a teacher is make the environment that you have control over the most exceptional environment that you can for the students that you are charged with serving, you have control over their experience every single day.

And so. You are a leader to those children who see you every single day. Um, I still have some of my former students to this day calling me, asking me for help or guidance in some kind of a way. So even if, like, whether you are an inclusion teacher or a teacher in a self-contained classroom, [00:13:00] ask yourself, how can I make the students in my classroom.

Feel like they belong and walk out of here today feeling like they learned something substantively. And you know, you can always say the thing about, well advocate for yourself and advocate for your students. And you know, I believe that most teachers are doing that on a regular basis, especially special education teachers.

Um, but I've been on the other side as a principal and as a principal coach and as a director, and. Seeing firsthand how leaders can be a barrier to teachers and trying to coach them through that. And in the meantime, teachers are sitting around. In a system. My advocacy's not working well, what do I do when my advocacy's not working?

Well, let's figure out how to just ensure that the students that you are responsible for can thrive in the setting that they're in. 

Tim Villegas: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:14:00] Uh, I, I don't think that I can like, make this point enough, um, because. Anytime, any, like, anytime we talk to anyone, uh, who is a teacher, uh, in a system that is not inclusive, uh, this, this concept comes up all the time.

What do I do? What do I do? What do I do? And I, I really wish I had that. I. Like, all you have to do is A, B, and C, and then you'll transform your educational system, which it just does not work that way unfortunately, because you're not in that leadership position, uh, that, that special ed director, that principal, that assistant superintendent, and, and so you have to be, you have to be, um.

You have to change the system where you are at, like you said. Uh, and, and that's okay. Like I think, I think for me I was, I always was like, that's not enough, you know? And it isn't [00:15:00] enough, but for you, like that's all you can do and you can feel proud of that. 

Toni Barton: And you know what, Tim, can I just add on to that?

Yeah. Because like to that point of like, you felt like that wasn't enough, and so I will. I'm so terrible at metaphors. I'm sure there's like metaphors. This is the thing that I'm gonna go down on. All, all 

Tim Villegas: right. Um, go ahead. We'll, on 

Toni Barton: this hill is that, that metaphor that might be the metaphor, um, is if you even have like a tiniest inkling of that's not good enough, then to me that means.

You have an impetus to be a leader in some kind of a way. And so I actually like deeply, deeply believe that special education teachers, special education leaders, need to be in positions of power. And so a lot of the coaching that I do with teachers and [00:16:00] and leaders as. Special education leaders and teachers, they need to change their seat on the bus.

I would say 95% of special education leaders that I have worked with, um, or trained or something over the past, I won't tell you how many years. Have said, I don't have the power or the control to change this or fix this. And so I'm like, okay, well how are you gonna become a principal manager or special education teacher?

I wanna see you sitting in the seat of principal or district level special education leader. What's your path to becoming an assistant superintendent or superintendent? Because those, that's the reality that we live in. Yeah, those are the people that have the voice, those are the people that have the power.

And so I firmly believe that we as a special education field, need to proactively figure out how we are going to get a critical mass, um, of us and folks with the expertise that we have in [00:17:00] those positions of power. 

Tim Villegas: That's a great point. That is a great point. Yeah. How do we equip educators to, to. Move along the path towards, uh, educational leadership.

So, yeah. Absolutely. Um, I want to, I want to talk about your book a little bit, uh, 'cause you have this, you have six principles, um, for, for building a truly inclusive school. So there's a couple things. Um. The, just even in the title, like a truly inclusive school, like I, I think that, I think you and I know what we're talking about when we're talking about inclusion, but most people, a lot of people, I.

When they hear the word inclusion, what they really mean is inclusive placement. Right? Students with and without disabilities. In the same room. In the same space. But we're not talking about supports, we're not talking about if the, the student feels a sense of belonging, [00:18:00] if they're engaged, um, even if they are, um, uh, accessing the general curriculum.

There's no. Talk of that. It's just like the presence in the room. So what, what does it mean for you, uh, like what's that truly inclusive school look like? 

Toni Barton: Sure. Um, so I. Truly was, I, I just wanted to start with like, I'm glad that you pulled that out because I put the word truly there intentionally. Mm-hmm.

Um, 'cause again, there's a million books on inclusive and inclusion, but like, what are we actually talking about? Um, when we're talking about inclusive and there's a whole section, and I believe it's the chapter on anti exclusionary program design, where I define, um, what we mean by inclusive and. Like the term that you used, their belonging, like, I'm not gonna, I don't want us to use that loosely, and I want, like, I would love to like start with that.

Sure. And I, I recently like, did a [00:19:00] post or something about it. Um, like if you ask a student, do you feel like you belong at school? What is their answer? Like, I, I challenge every leader and teacher to find. Your most, some of your most impacted students at your school, and ask them that question and listen to what they tell you.

Um, truly inclusive means that students with disabilities, not only do they, can they articulate to you if. They have the language to do so, um, that they feel like they belong in their classroom, but also they are making academic and behavior and or behavioral progress. It has to be both of those things.

Like I've been in schools where kids feel like they belong and it's, and they feel like a part of the school community, but they're not learning. Um, or they're not making any growth on their social emotional challenges [00:20:00] that they might be having. And so it has to be both and we have to have the systems in place to support that.

And that could look very different for different students. You know, there's this whole debate around, um, and I know we're not gonna get into that on in this episode. Maybe we can have a debate around. Segregated programs and specialized programs versus inclusive classrooms in another episode. Um, okay.

But yeah, I don't even wanna get into that rabbit hole right now, but it's like, I think that's the, that's the highest level question is, is are your students with disabilities able to articulate that they belong and uh, and are they making substantive. Academic and social emotional progress and are their needs being met?

And the setting for that could look different depending upon lots of different factors. Um, but at the [00:21:00] end of the day, for me, when a school is inclusive, that is true for students with disabilities. 

Tim Villegas: I like that you put the definition really in the student's perspective because it's, you know, educators can debate all they would like about what.

An inclusive model looks like with, you know, the school building and school staff and, um, curriculum and, you know, services and all that stuff. But, uh, the way that you're really framing that as part of like a, as student voice, um, I think is really unique. And it, it's, it's one that we should constantly be.

Uh, reminding ourself like, like what do our students really believe and feel is happening in schools? Right? Because schools aren't actually for adults. They're, it's for kids. Schools are for kids, not for [00:22:00] adults. 

Toni Barton: I. Yeah. I also would just name that like the, the first principle in the book is called Anti Exclusionary Program Design.

And it took me a really, really long time to land on the title of that first principle. Mm-hmm. And originally I was like, inclusive program design. And I'm like, no, we keep saying inclusive, but we're not really inclusive. Like people need to hear something different so that they can do something different.

And so. I titled that principal anti exclusionary specifically, so that people could have this like pause this moment of pause and be like, oh, like I need to be creating something that is intentionally, which is where the anti comes in to place. Mm-hmm. Yes. Supporting students and so. There are so many things that we do in schools every day that are exclusionary, and we need to be proactively shifting that.

And so [00:23:00] that's what the first principle really is all about. And I actually like break this down in the chapter and I talk about, 'cause I could have also said anti ableist, right? And so I, I didn't call it that on purpose because I wanted to make it. As simplistic as possible. And sometimes when you get into the concept of ableism, people feel like it's really a hard like academicy thing for them to understand.

And so I'm like, okay, anti exclusionary like that I think is a pretty clear concept for people to understand. Um, and so leaders really need to think about. How am I intentionally creating systems that work for students who are historically excluded, students with disabilities, et cetera. Mm-hmm. Et. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's not that, it's not that you're saying it's, it's not anti ableist 'cause it is, it's just [00:24:00] anti, like in the broadest sense anti exclusionary. And, and I like how you frame that. Um, the students are the, the students that are historically marginalized, right. Um. Yeah. And so the word choice, I think is really interesting.

Um, and, and it does, it does make you think like, Hmm, what does that actually mean? Um, and I, so I like, I like how you described that another kind of turn, you know, word difference in the chapters. And, and I, I'd really like for you to unpack this one is, uh, person first culture. Mm-hmm. So, um. If you, if you've listened to this podcast before, we've talked a lot about language, right?

Person first, language identity, first language, um, you know, what those mean. Um, how to incorporate that, uh, to just in an inclusive mindset. But I, [00:25:00] I'm interested in what you mean by a person first culture. 

Toni Barton: That's a great question. Um, and I love that correlation to the idea of person first language. 'cause when people read that principle, they're like, oh, are we talking about language?

Like, what exactly are we talking about? 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. So 

Toni Barton: this chapter is all about behavior and social emotional support systems and. When, you know, in my work with Leaders Leader, we like to think about systems like the big three systems in school, data, culture, and instruction. And so when you talk about a culture system, we're talking about, um, all of the systems that drive how adults and students act in a school.

And so, um, and things that support the culture and so behavior. Systems and discipline systems fit within that system. Whenever I'm doing work, um, I. [00:26:00] With leaders around culture. I intentionally ex, I feel like I've used the word intentionally a thousand times. I strategically, intentionally say to them, you're not gonna hear me say behavior or discipline system.

And that's on purpose. Hmm. And it's because. Those, the way that those, that language frames things, it frames it as there is a student problem and they have a negative connotation. Like when we think about discipline and behavior, there's an immediate negative connotation to it. And so what I'm trying to get people to understand is that when we're talking about, especially with students with disabilities, with diagnosed behavioral challenges, we're talking about a social emotional need and we need to identify.

What is that need and how can I support the student? And so we're coming from like a student centered frame of reference and students are people. Um, and so that's really what Person First Culture is trying to articulate is that we're thinking about [00:27:00] each student's individual needs and creating a culture to support that needs.

And so that means we need to be designing behavior and disciplined systems that are. Supporting their social emotional needs. Like the other thing that I tried to do for leaders, um. And honestly, the other thing that I'll say is that while this book is called A Call to Action for Leaders, it's actually a book that can be used by educators.

I actually even have like very specific calls to action for parents policy, um, makers and other stakeholders that are involved in the school system in some kind of a way. 'cause everyone plays a role. Um, but at the top of each chapter, I speci, I specifically named like what the call to action is. And so the call to action for person first culture is reframe discipline systems as social emotional support systems.

And so when you're approaching anything related [00:28:00] to behavior or discipline, with that as your frame of reference, it totally changes the way that you go about designing, creating rules and procedures. Um, and so I think it's really important to. For all educators to start to shift our thinking around discipline and behavior.

Um, especially 'cause it's, it's a post during covid. It's just like a common pain point that people are talking about is behavior in schools. And so I think this idea doesn't just support. Working with students with disabilities, but students more broadly, like, why are the kids doing this? Why are they doing this?

Let me actually understand why. And then let's like come up with a solution that's associated with that. Why? 

Tim Villegas: Yes. Yes. And, and it's, it's like not, it's it. It's designing the system for the students you have [00:29:00] too. So it's not like pulling down this framework and being like, I'm just gonna implement this behavior system.

Um, not even really giving a thought to who you actually like, who is in your building. Um. But what I'm hearing is design the system for the students that you, that you actually have, you know, and, and, uh, I mean, that's the whole idea of being culturally cul, culturally responsive, is you're responding to the culture that, that, that are, that's in your building.

Um, so I, so I love that framing. I think that's great. Um. And I think that's super valuable. Uh, and also just to, the way that the book is, uh, is. Structured, um, having those, having the stories, having the calls to action. Um, and then just really practical examples. I think there are really the, the, it's gonna be a, a really good resource or it is a good [00:30:00] resource.

By the time this is aired, it's gonna be out there for, for you to, to purchase and use. Um, 

Toni Barton: you know, the other thing I'll say, Tim, is that we should, I'm just like putting this out. Yeah, for future reference. So I also had the huge gift of feedback from like some of my role models in this work. Um, Zaretta Hammond read my chapter on instruction and gave me feedback on it.

And for those of you who don't know who she is, she wrote culturally responsive teaching in the brain. And she's just an icon, an icon in that work. I also got some initial feedback from Katie Novak, who does a lot of work around universal design. Um, and then, um, Paul Gorski wrote the foreword for my book and he is, um, uh, an iconic practitioner in equity more broadly.

And so I think [00:31:00] that group of individuals bodes well for some really meaningful conversations around. Special education being a part of the broader equity conversation. Those were both mm-hmm. Sort of like ahas that, um, I had in conversations with Paul and Zaretta, um, and how we can, as a sort of like an equity collective of individuals push this conversation forward, um, in a more targeted way.

So we should. I would love to get that group of folks together, um, to have a conversation about. This and the, the bigger picture. 

Tim Villegas: Yes, absolutely. Uh, and I'm always up to, to have a conversation. Um, and, uh, and Katie is a, is a former guest and, and friend, so, uh, but, and I would love to know the other people as well.

So thank you for sharing that and we'll, we'll, let's get something going. Let's get it, let's get it going. [00:32:00] Another thing, another part of the book that I think is interesting and I'd love for you to unpack is about, is about data. So, um, and you used the, the phrase data urgency. Um, is that right? Yeah. So it's, it's like really intentional language.

Um, I, I just, I really appreciate that. So help me understand, help us understand data urgency. 

Toni Barton: Sure. Um. Oh gosh, where do I even start? So we have, we get information about kids every single day. When I was a special education teacher, no one ever cared about data as related to my students until it was time to turn in IEP progress reports.

Well, those are only due every nine weeks. That is not urgent. Like we can't wait nine weeks to figure out whether or not students are making progress or meeting their goals. And so. The data for students with [00:33:00] disabilities is not, has not changed over the past 20. Years or so. And so we need to do something different as a, as it relates to data.

And so we cannot sit around and wait for kids to fail. We need to be acting and proactively planning ahead for, um, student struggles. Like we have a whole document of information about every kid with a dis with a diagnosed disability. And so how are we. Using that data on a regular basis to make decisions about their programming, um, so that they are making academic progress.

And so if you remember, we went back, if we go back to my definition of inclusive, it's like students are thriving academically and behaviorally. So how are students doing on their work? There is a kid right now in someone's classroom who is struggling. Who is failing, who doesn't know what's going on, [00:34:00] and teachers with the hustle and bustle of their responsibilities are asked to do a lot and don't necessarily have.

The time or the structures in place for them to stop and say, okay, did my students with disabilities understand the content that I put in front of them today? And what am I gonna do about it? So when I say being urgent around data, if we really, really, really want to close the performance gap between our students with disabilities and their peers, that's what we need to be doing every single day.

We need to have a pulse on, did my students. Understand what was taught. If not, what do I need to do about it tomorrow? Um, and so there are some meetings, protocols that I share in that chapter, um, that actually give teachers and leaders like a concrete way, um, or a concrete guide for how to do that. But it even like goes down to [00:35:00] the.

What are you doing during the lesson to get a pulse on who's getting it and how are you doing something about it, like even during the lesson. Um, and so are you like strategically planning for, okay, today we're learning fractions and I know that I. Toni struggles with multiplication. So this is what I need to, um, I'm gonna give Toni a little quick activity on this.

I'm gonna come check back in with her, and then at the end of this, the lesson, I'm gonna come back to her again. And so it's like being urgent. It's like every minute matters. Um, and so what are we doing to make sure that we constantly know who's struggling, why they're struggling, and we have a plan for that struggle.

Tim Villegas: I like that every, every minute matters are, are, are you familiar with the, the TV show, the Bear? No, I'm not. No. Okay, then, then this metaphor or simile or what I'm, no, I'm not good at that either. Um, [00:36:00] will, will not, uh, uh, uh, you don't have the context for it, but I will attempt to share the context. So, uh, the Bear is a show about a chef in Chicago.

Um. And he's running, it's kind of like a family owned business that he takes over. Um, and this was, uh, a, a person who went to like these fine culinary, uh, art schools and got trained at really like really high fine dining. And one of the places he worked at. Um, the head chef had a plaque on the wall that says every second counts.

And so that's kind of a running theme, is just this sense of urgency, right? Mm-hmm. That everything you do is meaningful. There's no wasted seconds. There's no wasted minutes in the, in the kitchen. And I feel very much the same way, like when you are. Teaching at a really, [00:37:00] you know, like impactful level. Uh, that's how it feels, right?

Every minute counts, every, there's no wasted seconds in a really en engaging classroom. And so, um, so yeah, that just reminded me of this, this idea of urgency. Uh, and I really, I really like it. I really love the, the language that you're using. 

Toni Barton: Yeah. And I would love to like make a connection back to what we were saying at the beginning around, um, teachers and their locus of control and then leaders and what their responsibility is.

So the thing that I described around, um, teachers planning during the lesson, okay, these are the students who are gonna struggle. This is what they're gonna struggle on. I'm gonna do this at the beginning of the lesson. I'm gonna do this at the end and I'm gonna plan for tomorrow. That's a thing that a teacher has control over and that they can do.

Hmm. Now the leader has control over like, okay, let's actually help Ms. Barton now take a look at her whole entire week. Let me sit down and [00:38:00] coach her as the instructional leader of the school and say, okay, I noticed that these three students with disabilities have been struggling on that. Like, do we actually have.

The right schedule or the right, like the bigger systems that the leader has control over in place to allow you teacher to support students in the way that they need to be supported. And so there are, everyone plays a role. Um, and I think it's just important for people to always thinking about, to always be thinking about how can I.

What is the role that I can play in this particular area? And so while again, like this book is oriented towards leaders, there are some very concrete things like outlined that teachers can actually do without, um, having a leader to have to come in and give them guidance or tell them to do something. 

Tim Villegas: Uh, [00:39:00] when leaders engage in this book, I, is there a way for, for them to kind of self-assess where they need, um, to start?

Because you ha there's six principles, right? But there, there's a lot of, there's, there's a lot of entry points. So, um, is there, is there a way for leaders to figure out where they need to, to, to start in this process of change? 

Toni Barton: Um, so at the end of each chapter I have, I put some tools for leaders to do some self-reflection and goal setting.

Um, and so I, there, there are supplemental tools that can support leaders sort of with that prioritization that. Um, will eventually be on my website that they can have access to, to help them with that prioritization. But those tools are not like directly outlined in the book. Um, but what I would say is more broadly.[00:40:00] 

There are a set of core practices for each of the principles outlined in the book. And so leaders can do a reflection on, um, which core practices, like for the different principles, which one do I have the greatest gap in, and potentially start there. But I would just say that the principles are sort of in a hierarchical order.

Also. Okay. Mm-hmm. And so principal one I think is probably the most important, a need to, people should start there. Um, and then they can sort of like assess from there, like what I hate to say, like when we're talking about inclusive schools, I hate to say, oh, you can just focus on this principle or that principle, because they all sort of work together.

And I think that's one of. The biggest takeaways that I've had in my work with leaders [00:41:00] over the years is that. People want a quick fix or a short answer. And the reality is, if you want a truly inclusive school, you need to do all of the principles that this book says. And you can start with anti exclusionary program design because that's like really forcing you to think around like the bigger picture systems and structures around those three systems that I talked about.

Um, and then you can go from there, but. People will notice as they read through the book, like especially when we're talking about the data, I mean the data and the instruction pieces, they sort of go hand in hand and they support one another. Um, so I would encourage people that if they wanna attack instruction or data to, to sort of do those together.

Mm-hmm. Um, and then all things related to culture and behavior. Um. I would say that that one is okay to sort of try to attack as a, a [00:42:00] challenge, um, separate of the others. 

Tim Villegas: Got it. Got it. Um, any, anything else you want to bring up for, uh, our audience of educators as, as kind of like a, a way to, uh, wrap up this conversation?

Toni Barton: Um, gosh, Tim, that's a, that's a hard one.

I think the biggest, like one big thing that I would say is that people can't do what they don't know. Hmm. And we talk a lot about mindset issues as it relates to supporting students with disabilities and inclusive education. Um, but I would argue that for most people, it's not that they don't believe in what we're saying.

Yes, there are some that don't. Um, but I would argue even for those people, it's because they haven't seen it. Or because they don't know how to do it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is why I think that your podcast is so powerful [00:43:00] because it elevates, um, examples of what it looks like in action and gives people guidance on what they can actually do.

And so I also sought for this book to be that vision for people. Here is what it looks like, and here's what you do. I would encourage leaders pick up this book as a book study. Even if you don't try to do the things in it in a given year. Engage in a book study with your staff about it. I encourage superintendents to pick up this book and do it as a book study with your leadership teams at the superintendent level, and then use that to drive future strategy.

There's a chapter in this book on inclusive professional learning, and I talk about, um, like here are all of the things. It's like sort of a, an inventory of what you need to know and understand in order to lead in an inclusive school. And so I. Build capacity of the people to know how to do it. Like don't just [00:44:00] assume that people don't want to or have a negative mindset.

Um, 'cause if we unpack that, we'll realize it's the, what we'll realize is that people just don't really know what to do or what this looks like. 

Tim Villegas: You're so right. It's at, I, I don't, I don't run into people who don't want to be inclusive, like. And, and if I do, it's, it's like, um, it's such a, it's such a rare thing for someone to, to really have that mindset that the vast, vast majority of people want to be inclusive.

They want inclusive schools. They just don't know, uh, how to do it or what it looks like. And so. So grateful that your book will be a resource for, for leaders to, for, um, for them to engage with and to move inclusive practices forward. Um, where can people find more information about [00:45:00] you, um, about, you know, how to engage with you, contact you, and, uh, and where they can buy the book?

Toni Barton: Sure. Um, people can go to my website, which is the Toni barton.com. Um, so like the Toni barton.com and links to everything are there. Um, they can order the book on any book seller website, um, or the publisher publisher's website. But I've linked all of that stuff on my website. So if people can go there, go there, they can find, um, the link to that and they can also find links to my podcast and.

Book excerpts and tools that, um, go along with each of the chapters. 

Tim Villegas: And what's the name of your podcast? 

Toni Barton: Oh, it's school disrupted. 

Tim Villegas: All right, good. Yes. Everyone needs to go, follow, subscribe, all of that for, uh, for your podcast as well. Okay. Toni, are you ready for the mystery question? 

Toni Barton: Yes, yes. Yeah, that's true question.

I love that. That's 

Tim Villegas: true. Question. [00:46:00] Here we go. This is one of my favorite parts and, um, I don't know about you, but, uh, from one podcaster to another, uh, but my family. My family does not listen to my podcast, except for my youngest daughter. So How old is 

Toni Barton: she? 

Tim Villegas: Uh, she's 12. 

So here we go. The mystery question for today is, uh, what is something you don't mind paying more money for?

Let's see if I can get that. What is something you don't mind paying more money for? 

Toni Barton: It could be related to anything, like, not anything that we're talking about. Any, yeah, anything it doesn't, 

Tim Villegas: you know, this is just a, this is just a. Off the top of your head. Um, and I can go, I can go first if you want, if you want.

Yeah, you can go first. Take, um, there's probably a few things, but um, I. I am a coffee snob. So, but here's the [00:47:00] thing. Here's the thing, like I will, I will go to the gas station and get coffee and be just fine. Right? But I do not mind 'cause it's like, I don't mind. Mm-hmm. I don't mind paying like the extra money to get something.

Like, to get to go to there. There's a local coffee shop here in, uh, Marietta, uh, Georgia where I live called Cool Beans. So shout out to Cool Beans. They've been there forever. Um. Excellent coffee. Great coffee. Um, it's, you know, it's a little bit. More expensive or whatever, but I don't mind paying the extra money to get the really good coffee.

So that is, that's me. I don't, I don't mind to do that. Is there, is there something in your life that you don't mind paying a little bit more for? 

Toni Barton: Yeah, I love that. I don't drink gas station coffee either, so I feel like I'm a little, same bucket. But Can I tell you the difference between good coffee and bad coffee?

Probably not. Um, but I guess I would've to say mine is. Legging like workout leggings. Okay, this sounds so [00:48:00] superficial, but No, no, no. One of my little joys in life, um, I don't wanna brand promote any particular brand, but there is a particular brand of leggings that is like stellar through and through, and I will not.

Buy cheap leggings, um mm-hmm. Because they, they're cheap for a reason. So, um, workout leggings, I do a lot of indoor cycling. Um, and so I get a lot of use out of them, and so that's my little splurge. 

Tim Villegas: That makes sense. That makes sense. Uh, it's kinda like, uh, it's kind like running shoes. Yeah. Because, uh, you know, um, I, I used to run a lot more than I do now, but like, um.

A I, and I'll say the, I'll say the brand because, you know, just in case you know, they wanna sponsor the podcast, why not? Right? Uh, uh, Brooks, I, I, I love Brooks running shoes. They're, they're wonderful shoes. They're great shoes, great to run in. Uh, but they are not cheap. 

Toni Barton: Yeah, 

Tim Villegas: they're not [00:49:00] cheap. So, um, and I'm not gonna go out and get, um.

The, you know, the cheap pair of running shoes because it actually might like, hurt my feet. Yeah. If I'm, if I'm running them. Um, so yeah, it's something, but you're right. You know, you just, um, something you spend a little bit more money on, but it's, you know, more comfort and you know, you're getting a good product and all that stuff.

So. All right. Good stuff. See fun mystery question. Welcome 

Toni Barton: mystery questions. That's fun. Yeah. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. I said, um, I. I am gonna run out of mystery questions eventually. 'cause I only have a few. I started out with like a stack like this and so I told my 12-year-old that she was gonna have to, um, start writing them for me.

So 

Toni Barton: also you get 

Tim Villegas: on that, 

Toni Barton: I'm sure Chat GPT can help you out with that. 

Tim Villegas: Exactly. You know, I did have, I know, I know this. We're just, I know we're just chatting, but, um, like AI is, um, it's just so interesting to me. I did have this idea of [00:50:00] like. Having an AI chat bot, like, come on, as like a third guest and like give us questions to answer.

So I think that'd be kind of fun. 

Toni Barton: Yeah, that would be 

Tim Villegas: fun. So maybe, maybe in the future I'll have to figure out how to do that. Toni Barton. Uh, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive podcast. This was a lot of fun.

Toni Barton: Thank you, Tim. Um, it was a pleasure. I love talking about this stuff, and I hope to be able to come back again. 

Tim Villegas: That's all the time we have for this episode of Think Inclusive. Now, let's roll the credits. Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I handle the writing, editing, design, mixing, and mastering. This podcast is a proud production of Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Our original music is by Miles Kredich, with additional tunes by Melod.ie.

A big shout out to our sponsor, IXL. Check them out at ixl.com/inclusive. We truly appreciate each and every one of you who tunes in. We'd [00:51:00] love to know how you are using our episodes. Are they part of your teaching toolkit? 

Are you sharing them with school administrators? Drop me in line at tvillegas@mcie.org and let me know. And hey, if you're still with us this far into the episode, it probably means that you love, think Inclusive and the work MCIE is doing. Can I ask a small favor,

Help us keep the momentum going by donating at our website mcie.org. Just click the button at the top of the site and ship in $5, $10, $20. It would mean the world to us and the children in the schools and the districts we partner with. Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works.