Reimagining Special Education: A Conversation on Inclusion | Think Inclusive Now

Jenna Rufo: Yeah.

Tim Villegas: All right. So now I have to go and… Okay, there we go. Then I think it will automatically go live at three. Here’s what I thought: because it usually takes a while for people to come on, I thought about doing the mystery question at the beginning.

Jenna Rufo: Yeah. Okay, yeah, sounds good.

Tim Villegas: I have officially recruited my 12-year-old daughter to write my cards. We were going over questions last night.

Jenna Rufo: That’s great.

Tim Villegas: Yep. She’s so funny. She is the only family member that listens to my podcast.

Jenna Rufo: Aww. That’s like my Emma, my 12-year-old. Same. Is she your youngest?

Tim Villegas: Yeah, she’s my youngest. A couple of years ago, she started reading the “Out of My Mind” series. I had never read them. I was honestly a little hesitant because, you know, sometimes it’s too close. I feel that way. I do this all day.

Jenna Rufo: Yes, I understand.

Tim Villegas: She had read “Out of My Mind” probably two or three times. On her third read, I thought, “I should reach out to Sharon Draper.” Sometimes it takes months or years before someone becomes a guest. I emailed, and six months later, her publicist reached out. This was before the movie came out on Disney+. It all worked out. I recorded my daughter asking a question and played it for Mrs. Draper. It was very cool. All right, we are live. Here we go. There are three people watching.

Jenna Rufo: That’s great.

Tim Villegas: Welcome to Think Inclusive Now. Jenna Rufo is my special guest. Going live is seriously stress-inducing. I’m going to check my stress level. It’s not too bad. The purpose of this is to have some dialogue and bring on people to talk about what’s going on in the field of special education and inclusive education. There’s a lot going on and a lot to unpack. We need a space to talk about it. I thought, “Who would be a great first guest on this platform?” I texted Jenna, and she was up for it.

Jenna Rufo: Yes, I can always talk about this stuff.

Tim Villegas: Exactly. If you are a fan of the podcast, you know how it goes. This isn’t exactly a podcast episode, but it will be uploaded into the feed and posted on our YouTube channel. To start us off and get people warmed up, I wanted to start with a mystery question. Usually, I end the episodes with mystery questions, but we’re going to start with one today. I have a little stack of cards. It’s very thin at this point. We’re both going to answer this question to get us warmed up. The question is: “Many people read electronic books or eBooks. Do you think that takes away from the experience?”

Jenna Rufo: There you go.

Tim Villegas: This is very timely because Amazon is officially stopping the practice of allowing you to download your books onto a drive. You have to leave them on Amazon. My buddy Mickey Mellon, who is a blogger and has his own marketing and website company, wrote a blog post about how to download them. I literally downloaded my eBooks today. They’re in a file on my computer.

Jenna Rufo: You’re an eBook guy.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, I’m old school. I prefer the actual book. I like to take it with me on the plane, to the beach, wherever I am. But I think it depends on who you are. Especially for kids and people with disabilities, having that accessible format makes the experience. For me, I prefer reading a physical book, but for others, the eBook is better.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, I’m definitely a mix. I don’t have a ton of eBooks. I do have a Kindle and a stack of books to be read. I want to be intentional about reading this year. I started “Self-Reg” by Stuart Shanker today. Are you familiar with it?

Jenna Rufo: I know of it.

Tim Villegas: If you’re familiar with reframing behavior or problem behavior, I just interviewed Guy Stevens from the Alliance Against Restraint and Seclusion. He doesn’t even like saying “challenging behavior”; he prefers “stress behavior.” That’s literally in this book. It’s called “Self-Reg” by Stuart Shanker. I just started it today on my Kindle. It’s really interesting because I want to learn more about the neuroscience of behavior. It was recommended to me, so I’m starting that. It’s going to be interesting.

Jenna Rufo: Okay, nice.

Tim Villegas: All right, so where I wanted to start was with an article written by… I’m going to share my screen. I apologize for the ads. Hopefully, nothing inappropriate comes up. This is an article from Forbes called “Re-imagining IDEA: Why America’s Special Education Law Needs a Modern Overhaul.” I sent this to Jenna because I really wanted to unpack it. A friend of mine, Andrew, sent this to me. Actually, a number of people have sent this to me, saying, “Tim, you need to read this.” I was a little hesitant, but I actually really like this article. One of the things it talks about is reforming IDEA. It mentions strengthening inclusion practices, which I would call inclusive practices. Many experts argue that IDEA should place a greater emphasis on effective inclusion strategies. I agree with that. Streamlining IEP processes is another point. As a former educator…

Tim Villegas: Uh, 16 years, I wrote IEPs and I was in, um, you know, in IEP meetings. It’s super inefficient and, uh, and then investing in early intervention. Uh, I don’t know about this performance-based funding. I haven’t really thought that through exactly, but embracing universal design for learning. So I’m wondering if just these, uh, few ideas on the table, if you have any thoughts about the authors’ ideas about the changes on the table for IDEA.

Jenna Rufo: Yeah, I mean, I think if we are looking at reauthorizing IDEA, which at this point, who knows when that’s going to happen. We’ve been talking about it for a long time. The last reauthorization was 2004. So we’re 20 plus years now since it’s been reauthorized. One of the things I think, you know, a lot of those things on there, strengthening inclusive practices, streamlining IEPs, early intervention, UDL, of course, right. Check, check, check, check, all for me, good. I think the one piece that I’m interested in, and for me, it’s not even necessarily as much the performance-based funding, but I’ve always felt that the funding, in addition to being underfunded, right? So we know IDEA is an underfunded mandate, never rose to the level that the federal government said it should. I think that there needs to be really a look at maybe not just that performance piece, but also educational placement. And one of the things that I have thought a lot about is when you have a district that is more inclusive, that is engaging in these good practices so that students with disabilities can be in the general education environment, a lot of times what happens is you have families who can, right, so if you have the means, families that will move to that district, which is great. However, what happens then is those districts that are engaging in those good practices have more financial, I don’t want to say burdens, because it’s not a burden, but financially there is an expense, right, when you have students who have higher needs that are coming in. And then it really disincentivizes those other districts from doing anything, because you know what, if we just kind of keep doing whatever we’re doing, people will move out, they’ll go somewhere else, then what’s the point in trying to improve? So for me, I think the funding piece really should also be tied somewhat to placement because we have these thresholds, these indicators for educational environment where we say, so many percentage of students should be included for the majority of their day. But when that doesn’t happen, there’s not really a whole lot of things to say that, okay, now you’re gonna lose funding or really what happens is you’re in corrective action, you write a plan and then you come off of it. So I think that’s something to look at.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, that’s so frustrating because let me see if I can collect my thoughts here. There’s this misconception, there was especially before this whole talk about the dissolution of the Department of Education, but there was this misconception that the feds had more control over local and state governments than they actually do. Okay. So there’s that. And I was having this conversation, you know, when all these executive orders were coming out and I’m like, man, I wish that the federal government had more teeth to enforcing IDEA, because right now, like what you said, if a state doesn’t meet their requirements, right? There’s corrective action. But then what? Right? I mean,

Jenna Rufo: and it really falls on the individual parents to bring those claims forward. I think there’s, in terms of, we’re thinking of things that are happening, not necessarily across the federal government now, but there are some scary bills that are out there in some different states. And one that I just saw recently is in Alabama and they are looking to actually add an additional layer of bureaucracy, I think, to the due process methodology, if you will. So pretty much they’re saying before a parent can file due process that they have to file a state complaint, go to mediation, attempt to resolve it, which I think that that’s problematic for parents because nobody wants to go to due process. You don’t want to get to that point. So I don’t think many people do that lightly. And I’m not OK with adding an extra layer of, you have to do this before you can even file a claim.

Tim Villegas: Right, right. And that was in Alabama?

Jenna Rufo: Yes, that one was, let’s see, House Bill 197. So this one, yeah.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, and what I find really funny, not funny, ironic, is that in some of these more conservative-leaning states that you have somebody trying to add a level of bureaucracy.

Jenna Rufo: Right. Yeah, that confuses me, right? Like, keep the government out of everything, and then now we’re adding additional requirements. I think that’s, it’s just, it’s very fascinating. I think a lot of people don’t actually understand how these systems work. So, you know, we’re thinking about the Department of Education, and that’s on the table to abolish it. Well, the government shouldn’t tell us what to teach in our schools.

Tim Villegas: Yeah.

Jenna Rufo: Well, actually, they don’t. That’s not the federal government, right? That’s never been their role. That role is at the state and the local level. Really, the federal government involvement from that lens, and particularly as it relates to special education, is around the enforcement of those civil rights laws. So I think that to me, that’s the scary part of if when the department is abolished or if its powers are significantly reduced, who is looking out for the rights of some of our most vulnerable students.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah. I want to get back to the article, because these are, no, no, no, it’s fine. It’s fine. I have a feeling like we’re going to be like, my gosh, we’re at time. Yeah. Cause we could really talk about this forever. I want to talk, I want to go down and talk about reform.

Jenna Rufo: Alright, I’m bird walking here.

Tim Villegas: And so I really like what the author and let’s just say, let’s just cite the author because his name is Scott White. And writing for Forbes and one of the, let me get back down to it. Sorry for the scrolling, the cost and effectiveness of reform critics of reform often cite cost as a barrier. However, many of the proposed changes could ultimately save money. So in our experience, and I’ve certainly talked to the MCIE’s CEO, our CEO, Carolyn T. Glenn, who was the assistant superintendent of Cecil County Public Schools. And in your role as assistant superintendent, or I’m not sure what the exact role was for North Penn, but the cost of inclusive practices

Jenna Rufo: Yeah, that was it.

Tim Villegas: when you, guess, look in the long term, it’s actually less than segregated spaces. Is that correct?

Jenna Rufo: Yeah, so I think the reason people think that it’s going to be more expensive and it can be dependent if you don’t really put all of your effort behind it, it can be more expensive because you can’t effectively run a dual model without hiring a whole bunch of staff. So what I mean by that is, you know, if you have all these special education programs over here that are self-contained classrooms and we need teachers here and then we have these kids over here and they’re included. And you can’t split that special ed teacher in half. So there’s not really an effective way to do it. So I think there is an element of pulling all of those strings at once and saying, okay, let’s look at what we can collapse to free up staff that can then support more inclusively. Because when you’re running both, it’s not an effective use of resources. And then, you know, I do a lot of work with schools across the country now. And what’s interesting to me is no matter where I go, what type of setting, whether it’s urban, suburban, affluent, low income, nobody thinks they have enough staff, right? So even when they do, like there are definitely places where I think, no, you’re good. It’s really, I think a lot of times a resource allocation piece. So, you know, more is not always better. And so when I don’t…

Tim Villegas: That’s so true. my gosh. Yeah.

Jenna Rufo: I also don’t believe in just throwing money at something. So I don’t believe that we need more money so we can include kids. Well, more of the same is not going to result in fundamental change. So I think if we’re funding these things, then we have to think strategically about that and how are we going to make the best use of the teachers and the staff that we have.

Tim Villegas: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I also want to bring up, I’m going to stop sharing so we can see each other. I also want to bring up this idea of fiscal responsibility, because that is a lot that, that is something that is talked about a lot, about efficiency, fiscal responsibility. So in my experience as a teacher, in segregated classes, you have one teacher, maybe one or two paraprofessionals. And in my case, I taught a kindergarten through fifth grade class. So that’s six grade levels. How efficient do you think that I was in delivering instruction for my students? Not very efficient, right?

Jenna Rufo: Right, you weren’t. And that’s not your fault. Like, that’s the thing. This is, it’s not a reflection on the special education teacher. It’s, we put people in these positions that, you know, it’s impossible.

Tim Villegas: Right, right. Plus, you know, these regionalized programs, clumping students together and all of this, like putting in funding these classrooms are actually very expensive. And you have kind of an overrepresentation of special education staff, either in one school or even in a class. So one thing that I know that you’ve talked about and you’ve written multiple books, but one of the things I’m going to bring up because I did title this Reimagining Special Education. So the book that you wrote with Julie Causton has some really great ideas about how to reallocate some of those resources. And by spreading students out across a grade level and across a school and being efficient with how to use special education staff, that is going to cut costs and it’s going to be more efficient and it’s going to be better for students, for both students with and without disabilities. So I don’t know, do you want to talk about that a little bit off the top of your head?

Jenna Rufo: Yeah, no, that’s sure. I think when we’re, you’ve heard me say this before probably, Tim, but I’m very much of the philosophy of if you build it, they will come. So if we start creating these programs, these places where someone can go, then you’re going to fill them. And I think it’s not, it isn’t always even, I don’t want them in my class. It’s people genuinely think, you know what, there’s someone else, there’s someplace else, there’s something else that can serve this child better than I can. And isn’t it great that we have this resource that they can go to that is going to help them. But of course we know, despite what our friend Doug Fuchs is saying, you know, claiming that all of the research from the last 50 years is bogus. What we know from that research is that our students, you’re laughing at me, our students with disabilities, when they’re in general education, they have better outcomes, better academic achievement, more positive behavioral outcomes, better social engagement. So looking at how to reallocate, coming back to that question of how can we restructure things better, we have to re-examine the role of the special education teacher. So again, we can’t just keep doing the same thing that we’ve always done and then expect that we’re going to get different outcomes. So how can we structure that role more creatively? I’m a big proponent of having more indirect hours with the special education teacher, doing things on the front end, like supporting teachers, modifying curriculum, working on coaching or supporting behaviorally, because I think too often what happens if we have students with disabilities in general ed. Teacher is pushing in, maybe she doesn’t have planning time, she doesn’t have enough content knowledge, whatever the barrier might be, and we’re not really getting out of that person what we could. So when we have inclusive settings where the special ed teacher looks more like an aide, that’s not an effective use of resources. So that’s another area where you have to look at and to say, okay, what can we do differently here? Because…

Tim Villegas: Mm. No.

Jenna Rufo: Co-teaching is a very expensive model to do poorly. So if you’re going to invest in that, then you have to have structurally all those elements in place. You have to have training, co-planning, administrative support, all those things to make it successful.

Tim Villegas: Ooh, I like that. Can you say that one more time about co-teaching? That is good.

Jenna Rufo: It’s an expensive model to do poorly. Right? Like you’ve got two teachers in one room. If we’re not seeing fundamentally different instruction, that’s a problem.

Tim Villegas: That’s a big problem. Y’all, one teach one assist is, we gotta ditch the one teach one assist. And if you don’t know what that means, definitely there’s a lot of resources about co-teaching models. But anyways, Marilyn Friend is one that is off the top of my head. I know that Julie Causton has written books about that. I think you go over co-teaching and reimagining special education. There’s so many different resources about co-teaching and how to… Yes, please.

Jenna Rufo: We do, and I have to share too, Tim, that my colleague Kate Small and I are working on a co-teaching book now. So, you know, we’re still a while out, but…

Tim Villegas: Okay, good, good. Yes, yes, that is definitely needed. All right, let’s get back to the article. I think this is going really well. So I’m just saying, I’m just saying, I’m just saying. Let’s see. We haven’t lost anyone yet, I don’t think. So where, I need to go back here. Okay, so…

Jenna Rufo: I’m having fun.

Tim Villegas: That’s good. Scott talks about bad ideas to avoid. He says we shouldn’t reduce funding, which I agree with, over standardizing IEPs. I think I kind of know what he means about probably making it too simple and too rigid, because IEPs are supposed to be unique to the student and then eliminating, we should not be eliminating inclusion mandates. And so, let’s talk about this for a second, because I think, I would like to talk about the maybe misconception about LRE as being this continuum of placements. And I don’t remember if we’ve talked about this before, but so when you think about LRE, you’re really thinking about general ed.

Tim Villegas: Right. And so that’s something that we talk about when we’re with our partners is there’s not this menu of options where you have the general education classroom and then the general education classroom with additional support and then the general education classroom with a co-teacher. And then you have all these different options of placement. So when you look at the needs of a particular learner, you’re like, well, the LRE for this student is… because believe me, I’ve been in many IEPs where that is the language, right? So if you were in an IEP and you heard that, what would you say?

Jenna Rufo: Yeah, so, and Tim, we were talking about this before everyone got on Facebook Live. Whether you want to refer to people like you and me as the inclusionists or the abolitionists, as it was called in the recent article, I think there’s a misinterpretation a lot of times about what we stand for. We’re not saying that students don’t need specialized instruction, right? So we’re not saying that a student who has a decoding issue doesn’t need a specific reading intervention. That’s not the message. I think where the misunderstanding is, is we’re saying, why do we need to sacrifice access to the curriculum, access to peers for intervention when there are lots of ways that those services can be provided?

So for example, particularly at elementary schools now, most of them either have response to intervention or multi-tiered systems of support where there’s an intervention block built into the day. And that’s the time where those interventions can occur so that we’re preserving the integrity of the general curriculum. So I think that’s a piece of it. The other piece, I think, when we’re thinking about the LRE for a student is it’s not a “for this student” conversation. Really, where we’re supposed to start is what supplementary aids and services could we try in general education before we consider another option? So we don’t say, because the student has an intellectual disability or whatever the disability is, this is a more restrictive environment. That should not be the conversation. The conversation is what are the supplementary aids and services within General Ed that we can consider as the least restrictive environment. And if after all of those things, we ultimately determine that there needs to be a period of the day where they’re receiving instruction somewhere else, that’s a different conversation. Then, of course, we can’t do this because the student has Down syndrome or autism.

Tim Villegas: Right, right. Yeah. Because they have Down syndrome, they have to go to an intellectual disability classroom. And isn’t it so wonderful? Look at all the fun things we do in that class, you know, and then there’s five grade levels there.

Jenna Rufo: Right. And one of my colleagues, she was in a classroom in a district last week. And she said, you know, I was in the general ed class, supporting the teacher team there, and in walks the life skills class with their Eagles hats on and treats to hand out to everyone. And the teacher says, look at these visitors. It’s so nice to have you join us. And it’s like, that breaks my heart. Like, why are these kids visitors? And why are we kind of parading around the school, serving people treats and wearing silly hats when nobody else is doing that? So, I mean, I think that’s where this concern is for a lot of these separate classrooms. What’s happening there is not up to the standard of the education that those children deserve.

Tim Villegas: Right. That was a great example. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And it’s just like, how are we presuming competence? It’s funny, that term, that phrase has increased exponentially. I hear it all the time now, which is great. But I really do challenge everyone to really think about what that means and how the situation that you described…

Jenna Rufo: Yeah.

Tim Villegas: How are we presuming competence for those students? And by presuming competence, what I mean is how are we saying that those students can learn what everyone else is learning in grade-level curriculum when they are doing all of these things like that.

Jenna Rufo: Yeah. Right. And Tim, so when I do teacher trainings, one of the things that inevitably comes up is like, well, what are they going to get out of this? And I always try to challenge that thinking a little bit that if any of us were to reflect on the classes that we took in high school, I know I don’t use most of them on a daily basis, right? But I didn’t have to prove that I could get something out of chemistry or French or biology, whatever it might be. It was just assumed that I have the opportunity to explore it and later I’ll decide if I want to use it or not.

Tim Villegas: Absolutely. And I did awful in chemistry.

Jenna Rufo: My mom was a chemistry teacher so I did okay because I had some extra support at home.

Tim Villegas: No, chemistry and biology, just, it was awful. Psychology, I nailed it. Psychology was great. No, the other sciences, no math, no, no, no. All right, let’s go down to… wait, is that it? I think that’s it. I thought there was more to that article.

Jenna Rufo: Not so much, yeah.

Tim Villegas: So let’s talk about, we increased our live attendees. So that’s exciting. Let’s talk about what’s happening with 504. And I really appreciate the concise blog posts you wrote about all the different things that are happening. Because there’s so much going on. There’s a lot going on. So do you have a…

Jenna Rufo: Thanks. Yeah. There’s a lot.

Tim Villegas: Could you help us understand what is happening with 504 right now with the lawsuit? Because I mean, neither of us are lawyers, but I know that we are connected with a lot of different people. It feels like there’s a lot of misinformation about what’s going on. People are saying in certain states like, no, this was never going to touch the disability community or take anyone’s rights. We were just talking about…

Jenna Rufo: Right.

Tim Villegas: gender dysphoria or whatever like that’s any better, right? So help us understand some of this.

Jenna Rufo: Yeah. So just to back up a little bit for anyone that’s maybe not familiar with what that law does. So it’s Section 504 of the Vocational Rehabilitation Act. And really, it’s an anti-discrimination law that says that schools or programs that accept federal funds cannot discriminate on the basis of disability. And under Section 504, disability is pretty broadly interpreted. So it can be things like asthma or ADHD or allergies, other medical issues. And what happened, so last May, 2024, under the Biden administration, this is kind of where people got upset and started this lawsuit. There was a rule that said gender dysphoria might be considered a physical or mental impairment. In September 2024, the Texas attorney general, in conjunction with 16 other states, sued saying that the federal law explicitly excludes gender dysphoria as a disability. And they cited language in the ADA and some other court cases.

Jenna Rufo: and that including that was really overreach. So this case was called Texas v. Becerra. The other states were Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Montana. I’m reading this list. Nebraska, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, and West Virginia. So on the face, what it appeared and what people were being sold was that this is about eliminating gender dysphoria as being protected under 504. However, when you scroll to the end of this lawsuit, the two of the items they were seeking for relief are one, to declare Section 504 unconstitutional, and then to prevent the defendants from enforcing Section 504.

So obviously people in the disability community saw that and said, wait, you’re going to get rid of 504. We’re going to say it’s unconstitutional. And some of the states, some of the lawmakers said, oh, no, no, no, that’s not what we wanted to do. We just don’t want this gender dysphoria included here. So on February 20th, because there was so much outcry from the disability community, there was a joint status report that was issued and basically what it says was the plaintiffs, so that list of states that I read, that they have never moved and they do not plan to move the court to declare Section 504 as unconstitutional on its face. What I find interesting about this is, okay, maybe that’s not what you meant, but that is what you asked for. So page 42 of the complaint, demand for relief says, declare 504 unconstitutional. So right now, because of all of that public outcry, the case is stayed and the plaintiffs are evaluating their position. So for now, it looks like things are okay, but obviously it’s something we have to still be vigilant about because, you know, this is kind of buried in the law as one of the things that it was gonna ask for.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. And I just want to make the connection for folks too is, you know, as an organization that works with districts around inclusive practices, like we are not equipping the teachers just to work, you know, just to think about inclusion for students with disabilities. We’re thinking about inclusion and thinking inclusively about all learners. And I want to make the direct connection between learners who are experiencing gender dysphoria or who are transgender and people with disabilities because those identities are, there’s overlap and there’s so much intersectionality with all of these marginalized communities.

And I want us to think about how ridiculous it would be for us to be like, well, you just meant you just wanted to, you know, not go forward or in a, for, and to have like gender affirming, you know, therapies or, you know, accommodate students with gender dysphoria, but the kid with intellectual disabilities or the kid with autism, that’s totally fine. Well, what happens when you have somebody that has both identities, right? It’s ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

Jenna Rufo: Right. It’s the same kid. And I think, Tim, to that point, so one of the things that I’m struggling with a little bit is I do, when I’ll see posts or things in social media where people will say like, you don’t realize that DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion, that means disability too. You know, it’s not just these other groups. And I think that feels a little icky to me because it feels like, okay, well, when do we start picking and choosing like who it’s okay for? So, okay, well, we’re not going to do this. We’re not going to talk about race. We’re not going to worry about gender, all of those things, but it’s okay if you include kids with disabilities. Like, I have a hard time with that. I struggle. I think it’s, you know, a little hypocritical to say that one group is more or less deserving than another. So, I think definitely to your point about we want to think about inclusion in a broader sense. I don’t like having to justify by saying, well, we don’t mean disability, because I don’t know, it doesn’t feel good to me.

Tim Villegas: No, it does not. It does not. Yeah. It’s almost like people think like, this is a softer sell if I say it this way, you know, but it’s like, no, actually, I don’t think that makes anyone feel good in the disability community. Like, okay. I’m safe.

Jenna Rufo: Right. And I think what is so interesting to me is the way the pendulum swings. I was very much, when diversity, equity, inclusion was at the forefront, I was always advocating for, hey, let’s talk about disability as part of this. And now we’re kind of so far the other way where it’s OK to talk about disability but not these other things. So we’ll see where the pendulum heads.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, I was just talking to my friend, Steven Davis from Disability Almanac about that very thing. He said for years, the disability community had been knocking on the door of DEI being like, please include us. Now, here we are. And here we are. That’s great. That’s great.

Jenna Rufo: Yeah.

Tim Villegas: So we have a little bit of time left. Thank you for explaining that 504 situation. I think I even understand a little bit better now that you described it the way that you did. So I appreciate that. I would love to be able to open up the live stream for questions. I know that there’s just a few people here and I can see the comments on Facebook. If you do have a question for Jenna or I about anything that we talked about or anything at all, please go ahead and put it in the comments. And I believe that I’ll be able to find it. While people are catching up with the live stream about that, let me think if I have something I wanted to ask you.

I think a lot of people want to know what to do. You know, a lot of people feel like things are out of their control. There’s so much going on. So much news to catch up with, like what’s being funded, what’s being defunded. You know, all the news is just a lot to take in. So a lot of people are asking, you know, what can I do? What can I do right now? So do you have, are there things that you’re doing or things or advice for people to do right now to kind of move things forward?

Jenna Rufo: I think you have to contact your legislators. And if we look at 504 and the about-face that happened with that when so many people did, it matters. So I think with any of these things, if it’s 504, Medicaid, Department of Ed, any state-specific bills, it’s really critical to reach out and to express that, I’m your constituent. This is how I feel on this. This is why it’s important. I think that that’s what we have to do the most. You had mentioned the one blog post I did, Tim. I tried to link in there specific resources that people could click on. So here’s a resource to find your legislator or here’s what you can say, some language around some of these things. So that information is there because I know I was feeling very overwhelmed and every morning kind of waking up and thinking like, God, what’s gonna happen today? So I’m trying to keep that updated and in one place if people want to go check that out, I do have some links for contacting legislators.

Tim Villegas: Right. Yes, and we’ll let’s go ahead and share that too while I have it up. And I was, I think I was scrolling through Facebook that morning. And I saw the name of the title. I’m like, I just started laughing because that is exactly how it feels. My goodness.

Jenna Rufo: Yeah.

Jenna Rufo: That’s what it feels like.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, so the article is “What Fresh Hell is This? Threats to Disability Rights.” And you can find that on poweredschool.org. That is also Jenna’s organization. So make sure you get on her email list. It’s fantastic. And check out all the services that she has to offer. Let me see if I can go down to what you can do.

I see you have under the topic, for instance, threats to Medicaid, right? What’s happening and then why people are concerned and then what you can do. And so, yeah, this is great. This is fantastic. A really excellent resource for you to check out. Sorry for the scrolling, but check that out. Yeah, I think some of these house bills…

Jenna Rufo: Yep, for each topic.

Tim Villegas: …have gone by the wayside, right?

Jenna Rufo: Yeah, Oklahoma has. I think New Hampshire, you know, there was significant opposition to it, but I think it’s still somewhere in the system. It’s not completely dead yet.

Tim Villegas: Right. Right. Exactly. And it sounds like there’s just a lot to keep up with. There’s a lot to keep up with, like at the state level. You know, I was just at the state Capitol, and if you didn’t know this, I live in Georgia, even though I work for the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, I live in Georgia. So my state representatives are in Georgia.

Jenna Rufo: Yeah, there is.

Tim Villegas: And I was down at the Capitol because I was interviewing a parent who has really taken it upon herself to talk to the mayor of her city, her state reps about inclusive education. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone so passionate about using local government in a way to express how she feels about inclusive ed. So I think that that was really exciting to see. So I went down and I interviewed her and was there. That’ll be coming out next week. I’m going to talk about that in my article, in the weekly-ish article next week, for MCIE. But it was a really interesting experience. Have you ever been to your state capital, Jenna?

Jenna Rufo: Yes, I have in Harrisburg. Yep, I’m in Pennsylvania.

Tim Villegas: Okay. Okay. Yeah, it was, I had never experienced that before. And I also didn’t realize that the state legislative session is only a few months long. And I don’t know what it’s like in other states, but in Georgia, I think it’s like from January to March. And I’m like, really? That’s it. So, it was really interesting. And there were a bunch of people running around and everyone’s chatting each other up and they ring this bell when it’s time to vote. It was really interesting. So yeah, but I think that anyone can go down to their state Capitol and talk to any of their representatives. In fact, they don’t even have to talk with their representatives. You can talk with any representative in the state. At least that’s the way it was explained to me in Georgia. So, you know, I encourage you to participate, you know?

Jenna Rufo: Yeah.

Tim Villegas: Let me see if there’s any questions. I don’t think there are. Or at least if there are, I can’t find them. So let me see here. Well, I’ll just give a shout out to the people who wrote something. Katie, I’m gonna say Huff, but I don’t know if that’s true. It’s H-O-U-G-H. Hello from Oklahoma. So hello from Oklahoma. Thank you for being here. And Tim Kretschman…

Jenna Rufo: Hahaha. Well, there’s a lot going on in Oklahoma now.

Tim Villegas: There is a lot going on in Oklahoma. Exactly. Tim Kretschman. Thank you for being here. Hello everyone. Thank you for your work. Really appreciate that. And those are the only two comments we have, but awesome. Thank you for being here.

Jenna Rufo: Yeah, this was great.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Yeah, this was great. So, a couple bits of housekeeping. This will be posted on Facebook. Facebook just, I think, announced that live videos will only stay up for a certain length of time. So what we’re going to do is, I’m going to take the video, produce it as a podcast episode. So that will be in our feed eventually.

And then I’ll post the video that is created onto YouTube. So that way we’ll have it as an archive. But I think this went really well. Next time, we’ll probably do it in a couple of weeks, maybe like, you know, it won’t be every week, but maybe every couple of weeks and try to bring up some current issues. What’s going on to keep everybody informed and talk about some of the things that we talked about regarding inclusive education. So look out for that and make sure you sign up on Jenna’s email list on her website at empoweredschool.org. Sign up there and then mcie.org. Just scroll all the way to the bottom of the website and sign up for our email list. And then you can stay up to date. So thank you so much and we’ll sign off. All right. See you later.

Jenna Rufo: Thank you. All right, bye bye.

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