What to Say When Families Think Segregated Special Education Classrooms Are Best ~ 904

Tim Villegas:
Sometimes, though certainly not all the time, social media can bring about interesting and thoughtful conversations. May 26th, 2021, Facebook, Sara Jo: I was asked yesterday if I thought “special education classes (segregated classes) had any place/value in education.” And just so we are all clear. No, they do not.

Comment, AW: I am often surprised at the number of parents who feel their students get better services when segregated. How do you respectfully reply to those parents who feel this way?

Janice Fialka:
Your question is one that deserves to be asked. I am happy to talk in detail about it. As a parent, social worker and activist, I started out believing that special ed was the right place for Micah. That was 30 years ago. With careful research, finding the right leaders in the field, being treated with respect for my own growth and questioning, we eventually learned about inclusion and were won over. It was a journey requiring relationship building and respect for how we all integrate new info.

Tim Villegas:
Sara Jo: Such an important question. I can give my experience, but Janice Fialka is an absolute expert. I always start with understanding: what they are afraid will or won’t happen in gen ed. So often it is fear and not knowing what inclusion is.

Janice Fialka:
Yes to fear and not knowing, and not rushing folks to know what you know. These thoughts are the beginning of an important article that needs to be made public or even a podcast.

Tim Villegas:
Well, folks, you asked for a podcast, you shall receive a podcast. Here is Janice Fialka, author, and activist, telling me about how her journey to inclusion started.

Janice Fialka:
Thirty-some years ago when Micah started public education, he was in a self-contained or segregated classroom. And I was a social worker so I thought services for someone with a label is good. That’s what I knew. Thank goodness I unlearned that. But Micah came home one day and said, “I want to go in the same door as all my friends.” And that’s what started us on this journey towards inclusion.

Tim Villegas:
And Sara Jo, activist and educator, saying what inclusive education means to her.

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
Inclusive education to me is a process by which we include all students, regardless of ability, disability, language, national origin, race, creed, sexual orientation in the general education classroom. And we work as educators to create a space in which all these students learn.

Tim Villegas:
Hey, y’all. My name is Tim Villegas. And you’re listening to the Think Inclusive podcast presented by MCIE. This podcast exists to build bridges between families, educators, and disability rights advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world.

To find out more about who we are and what we do, check us out at thinkinclusive.us or on the socials: Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. Also take our podcast listener survey. Your responses will help us develop a better podcast experience. Go to bit.ly/TIPodcastSurvey to submit your responses. We greatly appreciate it.

Today on the podcast, we interview activists and advocates: Janice Fialka and Sara Jo Soldovieri. We talk about what we really mean by inclusive education, what might make the biggest impact to bring inclusive education to school districts, and how to talk to families who think segregated special education classrooms are really best for their child. We are so glad you’re listening. And now our interview with Janice Fialka and Sara Jo Soldovieri.

Tim Villegas:
So today on the Think Inclusive podcast, I’d like to welcome Janice Fialka and Sara Jo Soldovieri. We’re going to talk about some really great things today. I’m excited. Would you mind Janice and Sara Jo, if you wouldn’t mind just introducing yourself to our audience. And we can start with Janice.

Janice Fialka:
Sure. Yeah. Thanks so much, Tim, for inviting us. I really look forward to the conversation. Nice to be with Sara Jo and nice to see you again, Tim. So the question who am I? I am a longtime activist, advocate. I’m the mother of two adult children, Micah and Emma. Micah was in the film “Intelligent Lives,” featured as one of the individuals. He lives interdependently in Syracuse, has an intellectual disability. So in many ways he’s been all of our family’s teacher or door opener to the world of disability. Long time in that world. I’m a social worker by trade and let’s see, I love to shovel snow. So I’ll leave it at that a little bit.

Tim Villegas:
I’m glad somebody does… Shovel snow, that is, yeah. Okay. Sara Jo.

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
Yes. And thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Janice, always an honor to talk and work and be in community with you. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Sara Jo Soldovieri. I’m a doctoral student at Syracuse University studying inclusive special education. I’m an inclusive special educator by training. I’m also the proud product of a fully inclusive school which I was first introduced to as a child. I was previously at the National Down Syndrome Society where I created and ran their inclusive education program. Some of you may have seen me in the recent documentary “Forget Me Not” in which we’re bringing to light the situation in New York City with inclusive education. And I am a long time advocate for inclusive ed and disability rights. I’m happy to be here.

Tim Villegas:
The reason why this all came together was a conversation in a Facebook thread. And to be honest, I don’t even remember the post, but the comments were surrounding how do we advocate for inclusive education with parents and educators who really believe that segregated special education classrooms are best for their students and children? Before we get into that big conversation, why don’t we define what we’re actually talking about? Because I know sometimes when we talk about inclusive education, people have different ideas of what that actually means. So in your words, how would you describe inclusive education to our audience?

Janice Fialka:
Go ahead, Sara Jo.

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
Perfect. The lens through which this Facebook post was looking at was for students with intellectual and what we used to consider complex disabilities. I like to push back on that notion of what a complex disability is. Inclusive education to me is a process by which we include all students, regardless of ability, disability, language, national origin, race, creed, sexual orientation in the general education classroom. And we work as educators to create a space in which all these students learn.

Janice Fialka:
Thanks, Sara Jo. I think that is really important to lift up. The way I, as a mother and maybe as a social worker, frame it similarly is that it’s kids with and without disabilities or labels learning, laughing, being in the same classroom and receiving the necessary supports that they need. That’s so important. It’s not just, as we used to say, dumping kids in the same classroom. They need to be able to thrive and grow. And that growth is relative to the individual. They’re growing as individuals—cognitively, emotionally—and also as a community. They’re growing as an inclusive community. So that would be what I would add.

Tim Villegas:
What do you think are the biggest barriers to realizing that vision of inclusive education?

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
I think it’s a multifaceted issue. As a scholar looking at teacher prep programs, we have programs that still teach students have to earn their way in. It’s not an accepted notion of presuming competence. So we have a structural issue in how we’re training future teachers. We also have a structural issue in that IDEA allows for segregation. LRE is flawed. Some folks don’t want to touch IDEA, but I’m one that says we have to move past allowing segregation.

Then there’s a mindset issue. I don’t think as a society we do enough to educate folks around presuming competence, disability justice, and models of disability. The assumption is that parents, once they have a disabled child, will do all this back work. But that’s not fair. Those with the most privilege are the ones pushing for inclusive ed because they can spend the time, do the research, hire an advocate, take time off work. We have to meet parents where they are and explain the benefits and get past that fear.

When parents didn’t go through inclusive education and don’t have the resources, that’s why we see folks perpetuating segregation even for their own students.

Janice Fialka:
Excellent. I want to keep revisiting each of the things you raised, Sara Jo. My number one point was teacher preparation, but that’s sort of the long-term. In terms of the specific, I think one of the things—our daughter Emma is now a principal in Boston, very supportive and skilled in inclusive education—I asked her last night how to respond to this question. She said there’s an overemphasis on finding the right setting as opposed to creating the right setting.

And I just thought, that’s it. None of us really know how to do this. We move into it through conversation and reflection. One of the things we noticed as we supported Micah to be fully included was that there wasn’t enough emphasis on conversation or reflection among professionals. We can learn so much when the speech therapist, general ed teacher, art teacher, or maintenance person come together and explore what’s working and what isn’t. Those structures of reflection also need to be in place.

Tim Villegas:
Do you think the IEP process is a barrier?

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
Absolutely. I say I’m on social media to cause problems, but I put something out a few months ago that said I’m not interested in working within special education systems. I’m interested in burning down the structures that we have—these systemic issues of segregation. The IEP allows kids to be segregated. I had a professor at SU who said, “If you build it, you’ll fill it.” You build a segregated spot, you’re going to find kids who you think fit there. I’d love to see what we have completely thrown out and rebuilt.

Janice Fialka:
That’s great. What we learned is that often general ed teachers didn’t pay attention or even read the IEP. So we created a one-page form. It used to be ten pages, but most professionals don’t have time to read all of that. So it’s just a one-page conversation about what Micah is learning and how to support him. Eventually, we did something that I know a lot of people haven’t done—Micah’s peers were involved in exploring with him and the teachers what’s working and how to support him.

It’s also about engaging the community. My husband, a longtime activist from the sixties, would say at IEP meetings, “The first IEP goal is to change the school.” A big noble issue. But yes, I think the IEP really segregates in and of itself. Thank you for that, Sara Jo.

Tim Villegas:
This is something that Sara Jo, I know Janice knows, but something you may not know about me is that I taught in segregated self-contained classrooms for essentially 13 years. My teacher training was at Cal State Fullerton, where I was trained in inclusive education. But then I had to get a job, and my credential was in adapted or modified curriculum.

What ends up happening for me and for a lot of other people who believe in inclusion is that the only job you can get is in a segregated self-contained classroom. Even though I tried to make change at my schools in California and then following my move to Georgia, it’s difficult to make change from the inside out. Sometimes there just aren’t the options available.

So I’m making that connection to families who say, “No, I don’t want that for my child. I don’t want my child to endure all the barriers it’s going to take for their education to be successful.” Do you run across that in your day-to-day conversations? What would you say to a parent who is struggling with this concept?

Janice Fialka:
Well, I’ll start. I wouldn’t say a lot initially. I would listen. Listening is one of the most underrated skills because it looks so easy—you just lean in, nod your head. But listening, when you are really present with the other person’s thoughts, takes an enormous amount of work. You have to challenge yourself to be with them.

In my own work, I do a lot of conversations about stepping back and listening, building relationships with families or teachers. That’s hard when we feel so passionate about something and we’re so clear that this is a humane way to go—inclusion and social justice.

Janice Fialka:
So I think not negating the importance of listening, asking: What are your fears? What are your hopes? What is it about special ed that feels like the right answer? Not rushing to responses or resolution. That is hard—when you feel passionate, when you feel like you don’t have a lot of time, and when you want to give so much to the child.

Listening can help build relationships. And relationships are the safe place where we can explore differences and things that are unknown to us.

Janice Fialka:
Thirty-some years ago, when Micah started public education, he was in a self-contained segregated classroom. I was a social worker, so I thought services for someone with a label were good. That’s what I knew. Thank goodness I unlearned that.

Micah came home one day and said, “I want to go in the same door as all my friends.” That started us on this journey toward inclusion. We had to hear stories from other families about what that meant. Sometimes it might take three, four, five years to move into that. I’ll stop there—Sara Jo, go forward.

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
I think that’s where I start as well—with listening. And it is hard. I would get rid of all segregated spaces today if I could find that magic wand. But understanding what the fear is—what are you afraid of?

Often it comes from a place of wanting to protect your child. I then follow up with, “Where do you see your child in 15 years?” Because after K–12 education, we cannot create an artificial environment for them like we do now.

There’s also the issue of parents knowing their rights. So many folks I talk to say, “I was told this can only happen over here.” That misunderstanding—no, you can still have the most intensive services in a gen ed classroom.

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
We’re not rolling a student out to just sink or swim. When we talk about skills students need when they graduate K–12, what is that? It’s not folding towels or having a coffee cart. It’s having relationships with peers, advocating for yourself, and having critical thinking skills. The best place for that is general education.

Helping parents come along to understand that—sometimes it takes time. I’ve had families where we start with specials. If we’re really fearful, let’s start there and work our way up. I’m comfortable doing that because I’ve never had a family come back and say, “I wish we hadn’t done that.” Inclusion works when you have the right support.

Sometimes it’s about building trust. That can be said for schools too—let’s just try it. Let’s give all the supports. If I were a betting person, I’d bet on inclusion every time.

Tim Villegas:
Now I wanted to talk about educators or school systems that really dig their heels in. We’ve been talking about families and schools being collaborative and receptive to change, but there are times when school systems say, “No, we’re not going to do that. Your student doesn’t belong in the gen ed class. They belong in the self-contained class.”

When a family who is advocating for inclusive education hits that roadblock, there’s a choice to be made: Do I fight for what I think is right? Do I have the capacity to fight? Or do I say, “We’re just going to make the best of the situation”? A lot of families are in that situation. What advice would you give to those families on how to move forward?

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
I will say—and of course I’m not a parent, so it’s very easy for me to say from my apartment in Syracuse what I think, but it’s a different thing to live it—I believe it’s a fight worth fighting for. I say to my families, “I will be with you a thousand percent every step of the way.”

Now, I’m not ignorant to think that everyone can go hire a lawyer or find an advocate. I hope folks find that community and reach out to us. Going to mediation, filing due process—yes, it’s scary. But what’s even scarier are the phone calls I get from families with students who are 19, 20, 21 years old in segregated settings who are about to age out and say, “We have no skills. We’re headed for a sheltered workshop. What do we do?”

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
I have one family I worked very closely with, and the mom keeps reminding me, “You either pay now or you pay later.” So how do we balance this? Part of it is finding community and looking at alternate ways that aren’t just traditional mediation or due process.

One thing I’ve been doing with many families—and I’ll first say I’m not a lawyer—is we revoke consent for special education services and just use a 504 plan. We sort of force the school districts: “Hey, you don’t want to play nice? Neither are we.”

Systemically, the problem is school districts tend to have a blank check to work with. They’ll always outlast the families if they dig their heels in enough. So what can we do to give the power back? That’s one tool I’ve used. It’s a small data set, but it’s worked 100% of the time with the folks I’ve worked with. I feel like that’s a secret folks don’t know about. I want people to remember that’s an option—you don’t have to consent to these services.

Tim Villegas:
Yeah. I love it. That is so burn-it-down, Sara Jo. I work with an advocate here in Georgia who has done that, and it was like, “Ooh, that is so good.” Janice, did you want to add anything? Oh, sorry, Sara Jo, if I cut you off.

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
I was just saying, once I coordinated it—every student I was working with who had Down syndrome in that district revoked consent on the exact same day. And guess what they did? They hired an inclusion trainer to come in the next year. So again, it’s a fun secret, especially if you can coordinate it well.

Janice Fialka:
Yes. And we need creative folks like you to tell those secrets because family members and educators often don’t know them. I totally agree with what’s being said.

I also know, perhaps as a parent and social worker, that each family has to assess where they are emotionally, physically, spiritually. It may take a fight, and every family may not be able to do that in that particular moment in their life.

Even though a family may have experienced segregation of their child to the age of 19, 20, 21, I also don’t want to limit the idea that you can’t make changes at any age. Amazing things happen. Sometimes it takes a different route than what we might want to advocate for. I’ve worked with families whose kids have been segregated throughout K–12 and now they’re living more interdependently.

Janice Fialka:
There are small things you can do if you’re not able to fight at that moment. Nothing’s forever. I always say to families—and had to practice this myself—“Who in that building is most supportive and gets what you’re trying to do to support your child to thrive?” There’s always somebody—the art teacher, whoever.

That’s the person to sit down with and say, “I’m not asking you to change the system. Talk to me about what we can do in a small way.” That builds community. You talked about that, Sara Jo—finding community is essential.

I want to give tidbits of hope as well. I don’t want our son Micah to be the exception. Everybody should have the opportunities that he has too. Good, rich conversation.

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
Yes. Thank you for saying that. I think those are all fantastic points. It’s never too late to enter an inclusive and interdependent world.

Tim Villegas:
Absolutely. I’m muting myself because my dog is having a moment. Well, is there anything that you wished I would have asked you or anything that you would want to add to our conversation?

Janice Fialka:
I’ll go. One of the most important lessons I’ve learned from Micah and the disability justice community—and many others—is the ability to ask for help or to invite support, which is so contrary to the American way.

Pretty soon we’re going to be celebrating July 4th, Independence Day. If you go to my Facebook that day, I always say I’m changing—as if I have any authority—I’m changing the day to “Happy Interdependence Day.”

What I want my kids, my community, and myself on my good days to be able to do is to reach out to others, even when I’m not sure I know how to do it. To ask for help without apology, but with dignity, respect, and intention.

Janice Fialka:
I think that’s at the core of all social movements as well. I’ll end with a story that Micah has given me permission to tell, to illustrate this in a beautiful way.

Micah was flying by himself and wasn’t really comfortable flying at that point. There was terrible turbulence on the plane as they were landing. When we greeted him at baggage claim, he was a little troubled. I asked, “How did you get through that? What was that like?”

He said, “I was really scared. So I turned to the person next to me and told them I was a bit scared and asked if they would hold my hand.”

And I thought, that’s the world I want to live in. I won’t always get it returned, but more likely I will. That’s the big umbrella I bring to this conversation. Thanks so much, Tim. And please, Sara Jo, share.

Sara Jo Soldovieri:
Wow. That’s such an amazing point. Something I’ve learned in the privilege of knowing you is seeing how much that interdependence matters. None of us are truly independent, right?

I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for my friendship with Micah, or my friendship with you all, and my chosen family and all these people along the way.

I would add the last pieces: question everything. As a PhD student, I feel like I know less now than I did when I came into it, because I’m left with more questions.

I ask families to question: Why do we do it this way? Why is the system this way? For teachers: Why am I doing this in my practice? Why is the larger school community doing this in their practice?

We’ve gone down this path of “we just do this because that’s what we do.” We give an IEP because that’s what the system says we’re supposed to. I know that system’s not working. So let’s dive into it.

The last piece: just find a fun community. I’m honored to get calls and texts from teachers all the time who say, “I feel like I’m alone in this.” And I say, “You’re not. We’re here for you. We’re rooting for you. What do you need?”

There are days it’s hard. It’s hard work. But it’s worth it. Thank you so much for having us for this really important conversation.

Tim Villegas:
Absolutely. Thank you, Janice Fialka and Sara Jo Soldovieri.

Tim Villegas:
That will do it for this episode of the Think Inclusive podcast. Subscribe via Apple Podcasts, the Anchor app, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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This podcast is a production of MCIE, where we envision a society where neighborhood schools welcome all learners and create the foundation for inclusive communities. Learn more at http://www.mcie.org/.

We’ll be back in a couple of weeks to talk with Michael McSheehan to discuss multi-tiered systems of support, universal design for learning, and why sometimes we are the biggest barrier to inclusive education.

Michael McSheehan:
All the general educators I’ve ever worked with—once they have that first moment of, “Oh my gosh, I can reach Jack. I’m now connected with Jack, a student I never knew I could connect with”—that teacher’s on fire for the rest of the year. They’re good. They need that moment.

But if we’re always in this “getting ready for the change” thing, and we never put the kids physically in the room, people don’t get those great experiences.

Tim Villegas:
Thanks for your time and attention. Until next time, remember: inclusion always works.