How Poway Unified Transformed Special Education ~ 813

Nancy Brundrett:
When you see a caterpillar… There’s nothing when you look at a caterpillar that tells you that it’s going to be a butterfly. Nothing. Nothing when you look at that would tell you it’s going to be this big, beautiful, successful butterfly. So if we just pause for a second and say, what is it hurting us to give this student a chance? Like maybe we’ll get in there and we’ll find a butterfly.

Tim Villegas:
Hello, and welcome to a very special bonus episode of the Think Inclusive Podcast presented by MCIE. I am your host, Tim Villegas. This podcast features conversations and commentary with thought leaders on inclusive education and community advocacy. Think Inclusive exists to build bridges between parents, educators, and disability rights advocates to promote inclusion for all students. That’s right, y’all. All means all. To find out more about who we are and what we do, go to thinkinclusive.us, the official blog of MCIE, and check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

Tim Villegas:
Now you probably already have a notion that educating students with and without disabilities together is the right thing to do. That’s why you’re listening. But finding information to inform this belief or to share with people who don’t believe that inclusion is the right thing can be difficult. That’s why we’ve made it easy for you. We have a brand new resource document called The Best Inclusive Education Links, which is a compilation of a hundred links and over nine years of delving into the world of inclusive education. The resources here include some of the best websites, articles, movies, social media accounts, and more that will give you a better understanding of inclusive education. So go to bit.ly/inclusion100 to sign up for our hundred links resource document today. It’ll also be in the show notes. So check it out if you’re interested.

Tim Villegas:
So Tim, what is a bonus episode? Well, we love our listeners so much that sometimes we release extra episodes. And this is one of them. But what if you want even more content like unedited interviews or subscriber-only posts? All you have to do is go to patreon.com/thinkinclusivepodcast to become a patron today. Your contribution helps us with the cost of audio production, transcription, and the promotion of the Think Inclusive Podcast. Thank you for helping us equip more people to promote and sustain inclusive education.

Tim Villegas:
So today on the podcast we talk with Megan Gross and Nancy Brundrett of the Poway Unified School District in California. They tell us how their district has changed, how they educate students with significant disabilities, and their role in supporting Poway schools with inclusive education. Stick around, after the break, our interview with Megan Gross and Nancy Brundrett.

Tim Villegas:
Inclusive education is hard work. And for schools and districts that want to be more inclusive but don’t know where to start, it can seem impossible. MCIE can help. We’ve been partnering with educational systems across the United States and the world for three decades and know how to build systemic inclusive school practices, transform educational services, increase the rate of placement of learners with disabilities in general education, reduce removals and suspensions, and improve outcomes for all students across all school settings. To schedule a free initial consultation and find out how we can help, contact us at mcie@mcie.org or visit our website mcie.org.

Tim Villegas:
Alright. So I’d like to welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast, Megan Gross and Nancy Brundrett. Megan has been a special education teacher for 14 years, supporting inclusive practices for students with mild to severe disabilities in K-12 schools. And she’s currently a teacher on special assignment where she’s supporting school staff and facilitating inclusive practices and leading professional learning for K-12 school teams. Megan is the 2017 California Teacher of the Year, and she is also the co-author of two books: “The Inclusion Toolbox” with Dr. Jenny Kurth and “ParaEducate” with Renay Marquez. Nancy Brundrett has been a special education instructional assistant for 19 years in the Poway Unified School District. She is currently serving as the district’s first classified on special assignment where she is providing job-embedded coaching to fellow instructional assistants, supporting school teams in implementing inclusive practices and leading professional learning. So Nancy and Megan, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Nancy Brundrett:
Thank you. Good to be here.

Megan Gross:
We’re so excited to get a chance to talk with you today, Tim.

Tim Villegas:
Yeah. So I am, I’m really excited about this conversation too because I’ve never heard of a classified on special assignment. Is that like, is that a thing?

Nancy Brundrett:
It’s a thing for Poway Unified School District, which is awesome. I believe I’m the first one ever. This is an amazing time and a great honor to be chosen as that person.

Tim Villegas:
Right. So why don’t we get started? Megan, why don’t you tell us a little bit about Poway, how you are implementing inclusive practices and how Nancy in this special assignment role is supporting that?

Megan Gross:
Poway Unified is a school district in the suburban part of Northern San Diego County and the city of San Diego itself, along with the city of Poway. We have more than 30,000 students across 39 schools, TK through 22 years old. So we have a lot of students, a lot of staff. We’re really fortunate to work for a district that believes in the idea of continuous improvement. Our boss likes to say, “We reserve the right to be better,” and to continuously improve the student experience.

We have school board members who are really supportive of the work and inclusive practices, along with a superintendent who is leading the way. With their support, the district created both of our positions—teacher on special assignment and classified on special assignment—with the recognition that we have staff and families who want to expand our inclusive opportunities, and we need support to do that.

Megan Gross:
We had no interest in doing past practices like a “dump and run.” That was not what we wanted. A couple of years ago, Nancy and I had the opportunity to start a pilot project and work with schools that volunteered and applied and were excited to take their next step in inclusion. Unlike other places across the country where there’s a district mandate, our district gave us the creative freedom to identify what is your next step? What is a reasonable place to begin expanding inclusive practices?

Nancy and I have been really lucky to support creative teachers, instructional assistants, and site leaders in carving out what that looks like—whether they’re in elementary, middle, or high school. I’m so thankful our district created Nancy’s position because there’s absolutely no way this work happens without boots on the ground—someone supporting paraprofessionals, classroom teachers, and principals. I think Nancy’s in the principal’s office more than classrooms sometimes, but she’s providing that real-time support, which is often missing when we’re including students with unique needs.

Tim Villegas:
I want to get to the questions I gave you, but more things come to mind that I know our listeners will want to know. One of those is about the reason your district started this process in the first place. I know you were a teacher, Megan, and taught in high school, and this was already baked into what y’all were doing. But was there a reason why the district wanted to expand this to more schools? Was it a philosophy that grew, or was it about improving LRE numbers? Or was it both?

Megan Gross:
I think it’s a combination of both. What got the ball rolling system-wide was that our school board requested an independent audit of special education services. In California, there’s an independent auditor who comes in and assesses these services. One of the findings was that we continued to create specialized programs that everybody loves and moves to the district for, but that wasn’t fulfilling our obligation under IDEA to provide access to general education in the least restrictive environment. So we took a hard look at our services and our starting point.

Megan Gross:
Our district created stakeholder committees that met for 18 months and included representatives from across the community and different personnel classifications. They looked at what our next step should be and how to implement the report’s findings. The report gave a two-year guideline for shifts and changes. So we had data supporting the change, and we also had family and staff members and a school board saying, “We’re ready to do this.” That administrative and leadership support gave us the opportunity to take a philosophy and put it into practice. It’s rare, and it shouldn’t be, but when you have that support, you get to build an incredible opportunity not just for students but also for staff. Nancy can speak to how this inclusive moment for students is leading to an inclusive moment for staff as well.

Nancy Brundrett:
I agree with Megan. Poway was long recognized for our excellent special education programs, and people moved here for that. Alongside that comes the pride that staff—including teachers and IAs—have in those successful programs and outcomes. That’s been one of the shifts that’s hard to get at because people say, “But we do this so well. The kids are doing great.” So that’s another layer of coaching and teaching up—yes, we are excellent, and we’re still excellent. We’re just going to do it a little differently, in a more inclusive way.

Nancy Brundrett:
Not only for our students, but I look at the success of those students in general ed spaces and their general ed peers. They gain a lot from this. I can go into an elementary classroom and know which student is going to be a special education teacher someday. The kids pick up on it, and it’s as wonderful for them as it is for the newly included student. Praise to Poway Unified. I was one of those IAs for years in a specialized classroom where we did some inclusion, but it wasn’t what we’re doing now. We didn’t have the permission to think outside the box. We didn’t think a non-verbal student with sensory issues could be successful in a second or third grade classroom. But they are. And exposing their peers to them is powerful for that child’s education all the way through high school.

Tim Villegas:
So, when you are supporting staff, when you’re supporting teachers and teaching them about co-teaching, who is supporting you? Like, who is giving you the support when you get into a situation where there are barriers—whether that’s school staff or parents? What we’ve seen at MCIE and other organizations that work with districts is that it seems like it needs to come from the top as a philosophy. While your schools opt in, what does that look like? What support do they give you?

Megan Gross:
That’s a really great question, Tim. I think that leadership support is key. Nancy and I have a boss we can connect with and say, “Hey, this is a challenge I’m having. I’m trying to support these teachers, and I said this thing, but it wasn’t received well. How do I fix it?” It also means partnering with our unions—our teacher union and our classified union—and having everyone share the same vision and picture of what the work is. That way, when those offices get phone calls, they’re informed about what’s happening. Our unions have been great partners, also reaching out to principals when there are questions and concerns, so things can be handled at the lowest level possible. Go ahead, Nancy.

Nancy Brundrett:
I also think that we’re talking about teaching people how to be collaborative and teach collaboratively and support students collaboratively. That does start at the top. I totally believe that. Our special ed department works very well with our learning support department, our general ed partners. The more we see that collaboration at the top level—like we’re all in this together, they’re not your students, they’re all of our students—the better. Our district has a strong vision and mission statement around “all students are general education students first.” Getting that message out often and quickly has helped. People start buying in. But you’re right—it starts at the top, at the bottom, and all over. We need everyone on the same page. Poway Unified has done a great job with leadership and individual campuses—site administrators, program specialists—all the pieces that make our special education department work. And it’s not just a special education thing. It’s a student thing.

Megan Gross:
I think folks are also looking for consistency. Especially in education, we always have a new fad and buzzword, and everyone experiences change fatigue. Oftentimes, things come into our schools and if you wait a year or 18 months, they disappear. So you don’t have to be an early adopter because it’s going to go away. Two years into this work, people across the district are seeing, “Oh, they’re serious this time. We’re actually doing this.” The support network is larger, and more voices are saying, “I’m co-teaching now, and this is what it looks like,” or “I’m an instructional assistant, and I get to support the gen ed teacher.” That builds momentum and shows this isn’t just a random thing we decided to do and will forget about next funding cycle or school year. That consistency helps.

Tim Villegas:
Awesome. Was there a time that you were ever skeptical about inclusion? Maybe at the beginning of your teaching career, where you thought, “Hmm, I’m not sure about this. I kind of like self-contained special day class. I think that’s a good idea.” If so, what changed? What moved you over? And the same question for Nancy.

Megan Gross:
I’m really fortunate that my first teaching position was in an inclusive school district. My mentor teacher was Dr. Jenny Kurth, and I shared a classroom with her. That was intentional on my part. When I was finishing my credential, I felt I needed experience in inclusive settings if I was going to be an agent of change in other places. You have to walk the talk and have experience. I believed in it from my student teaching placements and from working alongside Dr. Kurth. I saw what happens when students have access to core content, electives, and lunchtime with their classmates.

Across my career, it would be disingenuous to say I never doubted whether I could include a specific student. One thing that’s been critical to my career is my instructional support team and the paraeducators who work in my classroom. When I first started teaching, I felt like I had to do it all—adapt everything, be in every classroom space. One very sweet paraprofessional came to me after school and said, “I see how hard you’re working. This is not sustainable. I’m a college graduate, I have a master’s degree—let me help you.” That was a wake-up call. People here have skills and want to be part of this work in a meaningful way.

Megan Gross:
She gave me permission to let go of some of that control. When I took a position here in Poway that was a segregated classroom, I had the confidence to say in my interview, “This is not who I am. We’re going to be as inclusive as possible. And do you mean my kids too when your school memo says we’re an inclusive school?” That message became part of our team: “This is what we’re going to do. We don’t know how yet, but we’re going to do it.”

I had four incredible paraprofessionals who supported the classroom, and it became their mission too. When I had doubts or when new students came in with unique behavioral profiles and I started to worry if we could do it, that team called me out on my hypocrisy. “What do you mean you’re not going to include that student? What is it going to take?” We had a great behavior support provider come in and say, “This isn’t you. We’re going to figure this out.”

Having people who provide reality checks and real-time support is essential. As a teacher, it can feel overwhelming—how am I going to provide intensive instruction in reading and math and also support students in general education? What if a student can’t stay the entire class period?

Megan Gross:
With that student, we talked as a team and said, “What are we going to do?” It wasn’t sustainable the way it was, but we wanted our students to be included. Our behavior support provider gave us permission to start with just two minutes a day. It sounds silly, but those two minutes built to ten, then twenty, then a full 70- or 80-minute instructional period. Eventually, the student could go to the classroom independently and get started.

Because of that push and reminder, I didn’t feel overwhelming pressure to succeed immediately or that inclusion would be deemed a failure if it didn’t work right away. That pressure is real for special education teachers and advocates. But those incremental changes also gave the general education teacher an opportunity to shine. She asked, “What do I need to do?” and created a sensory box that everyone could access. She made her classroom a safe space.

That was a key moment for me—realizing we can always do this. It might look different, and we need patience and persistence to go from two minutes in September to 70 minutes in June. It’s hard to sustain, but it’s so worth it. It’s good to have people on your team who give you reality checks and keep you grounded in your values for all kids.

Nancy Brundrett:
One thing Megan didn’t say, but I will, is that the team—paraprofessionals, instructional assistants, and the teacher—really has to work as a team. Oftentimes, well-meaning, stressed-out, busy special education teachers end up divvying up the work without much collaboration. “I need you to do this with this student,” and that’s it. But how much time do we really spend collaborating within our own team to explore inclusive opportunities?

It takes a strong teacher to stop and say, “I have this team here. Maybe they’re not well-versed in this subject area, but they are in another. What kind of PD can we do together to expand opportunities for inclusion—whether in academics or co-curriculars?”

Nancy Brundrett:
Megan’s point is well taken—it takes a team. From an IA perspective, it can be hard. You might be tasked with taking a student to a classroom and think, “This student is non-verbal, has maladaptive behaviors, and I’m supposed to stay here for 30 minutes. What are they going to get out of it?” I hear that a lot. “What are they going to get out of going to science class or math class?”

One thing I try to spread to our instructional assistants in Poway through PD is the analogy of a caterpillar. When you see a caterpillar, there’s nothing that tells you it’s going to be a butterfly. Nothing. But if we pause and ask, “What’s the harm in giving this student a chance?”—maybe we’ll find a butterfly. Maybe we’ll find someone amazing at math.

When we find strengths in our students in general education settings, and their peers see those strengths—like being a calendar savant—it draws kids in. That’s good for all students. It becomes a strength-based approach: “They’re great at this, let’s try something else.”

Nancy Brundrett:
I think that really builds up all students. The paraprofessional needs to be willing to look for those opportunities and have permission from the classroom team to try things. Sometimes it may not work, but if it doesn’t, we don’t give up. We try again. What other area, subject matter, or time during the day could we possibly use to help this student make connections and broaden their social and academic opportunities?

Tim Villegas:
Fantastic. We’re almost to two o’clock, but I wanted to know if there was anything you wanted to share with our audience that maybe I didn’t ask or something you really wish you could say to the people who listen to this podcast.

Nancy Brundrett:
I have one. One of the things we talked about was what advice we’d give to people moving forward. I think: build a team. Let go of past failures—whether with personnel, a subject area, or a department—and give yourself a new try. Build a team and try again. Our attitudes and experiences are important. Let’s be inclusive with students and with every adult partner on campus. You might not think the person who takes lunch money in the cafeteria needs to know this, but they do. Include everyone—from bus drivers to custodians, lunch servers, and front office staff. They interact daily and often with our students. Including everyone in the mission and vision for inclusion is critical. And don’t give up. This is what kids absolutely deserve—and really what we all deserve—because making students’ experiences better makes everyone’s experience better.

Megan Gross:
Nancy, I love that.

Tim Villegas:
Give her a raise.

Nancy Brundrett:
I have a daughter going into this field. I used to say, “Don’t be a teacher. They don’t make enough money.” But she reminded me recently—she’s 24—“You always said you never woke up in the morning and didn’t want to go to work.” There’s value in that. It was a great reminder. I’ve obviously told her that early on. There’s value in doing something meaningful and something you love. A lot of our paraprofessionals operate from that same mentality. It’s powerful work. It’s great work. It’s hard work. But seeing successes has huge value. It makes you get up in the morning and not dread going to work. You wonder, “What’s new today? What successes will we have today?”

Tim Villegas:
Thank you. Thank you for that. What about you, Megan?

Megan Gross:
Over the past few years, I’ve been learning how to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. As a teacher, that can be challenging. There are so many moving parts. You just want to get in and teach your content and your students. For so long, our profession has been isolated—you had your room, and I had mine. Now we’re blurring lines and supports. Learning to be comfortable with change and uncertainty has been impactful for me.

Megan Gross:
Nancy can tell you—I often retreat. I need a moment to process and figure out the next step. On a journey of inclusion, there are lots of roadside pit stops where you wonder, “What am I doing? Am I really making change?” That’s when you need the team Nancy talked about. You give each other grace when someone needs to step back. I’m grateful for Nancy and my other colleagues who, when I need a moment, remind me, “Look where we were six months ago. Remember that student in the classroom.” Folks on this journey need that circle of support—the same support we want our students to have—for the hard days and the days when it doesn’t seem like things are advancing as fast as we want or as fast as they should. That’s been incredibly helpful for me.

Tim Villegas:
Awesome. Well, I want to thank Megan Gross and Nancy Brundrett for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast. We appreciate you being here.

Nancy Brundrett:
It was an awesome experience. Thanks for having us.

Megan Gross:
Thank you. Loved talking to you.

Tim Villegas:
That will do it for this episode of the Think Inclusive Podcast. Subscribe via Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, or the Anchor app. And while you’re there, give us a review so more people can find us. We love reading reviews on Apple Podcasts. Thank you to NewBethG for the five-star rating: “A fantastic podcast for all educators. I am a special educator working on a state grant, and I am loving this podcast. I am working my way through past episodes and constantly sharing with my consultants and school and district administrators we support. The last episode with Katie Novak was amazing, and we plan to use it for a UDL PLC in one of our districts.” Thanks a lot, NewBethG.

Tim Villegas:
Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@thinkinclusive.us. We love to know that you’re listening. And thank you to patrons Pamela P, Veronica E, Kathleen T, and Mark C for their continued support of the podcast. This podcast is a production of MCIE, where we envision a society where neighborhood schools welcome all learners and create the foundation for inclusive communities. Learn more at mcie.org. We’ll be back in May with our guest Eddie Fergus of Temple University, where we discuss disproportionality in special education. On the blog, make sure to check out “Nine Ways Your School May Be Doing Inclusion Wrong.” For example, if your school has an inclusion classroom. Thanks for your time and attention. Until next time, remember: inclusion always works.