The Best of Think Inclusive Volume 1 ~ 812

Tim Villegas:
Hello and welcome to a very special bonus episode of the Think Inclusive podcast presented by MCIE. I am your host, Tim Villegas. This podcast features conversations and commentary with thought leaders in inclusive education and community advocacy. Think Inclusive exists to build bridges between parents, educators, and disability rights advocates to promote inclusion for all students. That’s right, y’all. All means all. To find out more about who we are and what we do, go to thinkinclusive.us, the official blog of MCIE. Check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

Tim Villegas:
Today, I’m coming to you from my neighborhood cul-de-sac. Like many of you out there in listener land, the Coronavirus pandemic has caused me to change some of my habits. One of them is walking around my neighborhood. I try to do it every day, but there are some days where I get too engrossed with my work and even forget to take a lunch from time to time. As I moved into my new role as Director of Communications for MCIE this year, I had to be intentional about making time in my day to get some steps in. What new habits have you made this year?

Tim Villegas:
Today we are bringing you clips from four previous interviews and one previously unpublished interview. In fact, it was my very first interview. Essentially, it’s a “best of” episode. Today, you’ll hear from Paula Kluth, Dan Habib, Julie Causton, Nicole Eredics, and my friend and colleague Scott. I’ll set up the clips before they play. But before we get to that, I want you to do something for us: become a patron of the Think Inclusive podcast. When you do, you will get access to patron-only posts, unedited interviews, and more. Go to patreon.com/thinkinclusivepodcast to become a patron today. Help us reach our goal of 50 patrons, and we will produce one additional podcast episode per month only for our patrons. Your contribution helps us with the cost of audio production, transcription, and promotion of the Think Inclusive podcast. Thank you for helping us equip more people to promote and sustain inclusive education. So stick around, after the break: the best of the Think Inclusive podcast.

Interview with Paula Kluth

Tim Villegas:
In 2013, I spoke with author, speaker, and all-around amazing person, Paula Kluth, about her book, Don’t We Already Do Inclusion? Here is a clip of our conversation.

Tim Villegas:
Well, let’s get right into it. The reason I asked you to be on the podcast is to talk about your book. Of course, we have a lot of other things that we can talk about. But first, I’d like to say I love the title of the book, Don’t We Already Do Inclusion? Do you find that in your trainings or in conversations, you were answering this question a lot? And what was the impetus for you writing this book in the first place?

Paula Kluth:
Well, first of all, I do love clever titles—they’re memorable—but a lot of them come out of conversations I’ve been having. This came up a lot in doing work with teachers and administrators, especially when I was working with schools that were sophisticated and had been doing the work for quite some time. I had spent a lot of my career helping folks move out of segregated or self-contained settings into inclusive environments. But I began to realize that sometimes I wasn’t having discussions with folks who were already seen as having inclusive models. I thought, it’s time to address some of the work that is happening—or not happening—in schools that already have an identity of being inclusive but may not realize, or may not have the tools or awareness, that in the work of inclusive education, like in education in general, the work is never really done.

Paula Kluth:
Some of the impetus for writing came from being in schools that were known for inclusion, sometimes for a decade or two, and had that reputation. Yet there were kids with certain labels who had never been brought back from private placements and were never thought of as candidates for inclusion. Or I’d be in a school with great energy around certain elements of inclusivity—great supports, good co-teaching models—but some students still received a lot of education in a room called the “inclusion room.” I used to joke and say, “If you have a room called the inclusion room, you’re probably not an inclusive school.” These are things that all of us, no matter where we are in the journey, could reflect on. That’s really what the book is about.

Tim Villegas:
What I think is interesting about what you said about systems—schools, districts that have had a history of being “inclusive”—is that those systems have their own idea of what inclusion is, and they play it out however that culture deems fit. I remember when I was doing my teacher training in California, we visited a school that was a model for inclusion, yet they didn’t have any students with significant disabilities. At the time, I didn’t even think that was weird because I had never worked with students with significant disabilities. So it was just like, “Oh, okay, they go somewhere else.” But it’s interesting that certain schools define inclusion a particular way. Do you have a definition of inclusion?

Paula Kluth:
I think about inclusion as what I call “the big I.” Instead of thinking about inclusion as just bringing kids with disabilities out of segregated environments into inclusive environments, the “big I” is about inclusion around race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability, ability, gender—really making schools appropriately challenging, safe, and welcoming for every student. Part of that definition is that students are educated together, side by side with their neighbors, siblings, and classmates in common environments. We don’t have classrooms only for certain kinds of learners. That doesn’t mean we can’t have small group instruction or independent projects. Kids can still get personalized instruction, but we don’t want spaces designated just for certain learners that others can’t access.

Interview with Dan Habib

Tim Villegas:
In 2014, filmmaker Dan Habib was promoting his film Who Cares About Kelsey? which documented the lives of students with emotional and behavioral challenges. Here is a clip of my interview with Dan.

Tim Villegas:
I’m hearing a lot of different buzzwords for those familiar with inclusion—positive behavior intervention supports, universal design for learning, person-centered planning. Those are all things that, as a believer in inclusion for all kids, are really important. How did this particular high school get all of that support all at once? And like you said, Kelsey was a lucky recipient of being in that environment. How does that happen exactly?

Dan Habib:
It can happen in a lot of different ways, depending on the school. One thing I will say, as I’ve talked to a lot of people around the country, money is not the biggest factor here. School transformation and inclusion—yes, education needs money, no doubt about it. You want good staffing ratios, properly trained staff, and technology. That’s just good education. But what I’ve found makes the biggest difference is great leadership. Sometimes that’s a great principal. It’s very difficult to have this type of positive transformation without strong leaders. You also need an attitude within a school that we are about supporting every kid and not giving up on any kid. We presume every kid is competent, and everyone in the building knows that every kid can be successful. We all understand that a lot of us struggle when we’re younger, whether we have a disability or not. You’ve got to get kids through those bumps.

Dan Habib:
Specifically in Somersworth, there was a New Hampshire Department of Education grant that incentivized other supports because that approach is seen as effective across the country. Once that was incentivized, they were able to get some training for their staff, which was helpful. Having someone facilitate the process for a young student with a disability was extremely helpful. But ultimately, the capacity has to be built internally. That’s what happened in Somersworth—they weren’t relying on outside consultants for years. They took this on themselves. When you look at positive behavioral supports (PBIS), it’s about creating a positive, healthy school climate and culture with good instruction. About 80% of students will succeed if you have that. Easier said than done, but their focus was on making the school a place where kids and staff felt safe, with a strong sense of community and consistency around discipline and language.

Dan Habib:
Then there are 10–15% of students who need more—extra instructional support, check-ins in the morning and afternoon, what PBIS calls the “yellow tier” of support. And then there are the Kelseys of the world who have everything going against them and need intensive supports. Without that, they’ll drop out or be sent to “special schools” because of behavior problems, which is not a good roadmap.

Dan Habib:
Kelsey had severe ADHD, depression, and anxiety. She was very public in the film about being sexually abused as a kid. She was self-mutilating in eighth and ninth grade. Her mother was heavily into drugs, emotionally disconnected, and most of her siblings had teen pregnancies or didn’t finish school. Everything in her life was pushing her toward dropping out, incarceration, drug abuse, and pregnancy. The film is about how the school worked with her to change her trajectory. Now she’s taking college classes, training to be a firefighter, and traveling around the country with me on this film tour, hopefully opening people’s minds.

Interview with Julie Causton

Tim Villegas:
Also in 2014, Julie Causton and I discussed a research project called Schools of Promise and why it was so important to understand how systems change is vital for promoting and sustaining inclusive education. Here is a clip of our conversation.

Tim Villegas:
Let’s dig right in. The reason I wanted to get you on the podcast was because of the work you did with a research project called Schools of Promise. I know that was a while ago, but I was hoping we could talk about this research and tell our audience about your involvement. Do you agree that this was a good example of how inclusive education can be possible for all students?

Julie Causton:
Definitely. Schools of Promise began almost eight years ago. My colleagues at Syracuse University and I were teaching undergraduates how to create inclusive schools. We teach teachers how to teach general and special education in inclusive settings. We were placing our students in city schools near Syracuse University, but we weren’t seeing very good models of inclusive education locally. We were teaching them something they couldn’t see in practice. So we decided to look at the schools where we were placing our students and see if we could work with them to become more inclusive.

We went to the superintendent of Syracuse City Schools and asked if anyone was interested in being involved in our project. We got a lot of schools interested and worked with those where 80% or more of the teachers were on board with becoming more inclusive. We started with two schools in Syracuse. These were typical schools with pull-out classrooms, resource rooms, and segregated classrooms. To be involved in the partnership, they had to agree to get rid of segregated classrooms and resource pull-out programs, and all children with all disability labels would be included in the general education curriculum.

Julie Causton:
We worked with those schools for three to five years. We helped them restructure, eliminate segregated programs, and include all kids in general ed classrooms. Our work focused on professional development—teaching teachers how to create inclusive classrooms, differentiate content, support kids with challenging behaviors, and collaborate effectively. The schools looked different—no children were segregated—but what surprised us were the academic results.

Julie Causton:
We expected inclusion to be good for social justice reasons, but we didn’t expect such big academic gains—not only for children with disabilities but also for their peers without disabilities. Across reading, math, social studies, science, and state tests, kids did better academically when included. This shifted our argument from social justice to academic performance. Since then, we’ve replicated these results in multiple schools across the country. Now, when I talk to administrators about why to include students, I use academic achievement gains as the number one reason.

Tim Villegas:
Do you find that’s more effective at convincing administrators?

Julie Causton:
Definitely. Everyone is focused on test scores, cut scores, and the Common Core. When we can show real numbers and real schools, it’s powerful. These schools aren’t perfect—they’re decent schools with great teachers working hard—but the point is, we have hard data showing kids do better in inclusive classrooms than when they’re segregated or constantly transitioning in and out. Students miss so much during those transitions. It only makes sense that students who spend their days in the Common Core, learning alongside peers in creative ways, will do better academically.

Interview with Nicole Eredics

Tim Villegas:
One of my first guests on the podcast was fellow blogger and podcaster Nicole Eredics. In this clip from 2012, we discussed one thing that worked for her in her inclusive classroom.

Tim Villegas:
Maybe there’s a teacher out there listening who’s trying to get inclusion started in the U.S., or maybe they’re an inclusion teacher in a co-taught situation. Is there one thing that really worked for you when you were in the classroom that you could share with us?

Nicole Eredics:
I have a lot of strategies, but the one thing that really worked for me was bringing parents on board. Start the school year off right—don’t wait for back-to-school night. Get a newsletter out to your class parents right away and invite them in. I would have what I called an intake conference. Every classroom in my school had it. You just sit and listen to the parent talk for about 10 minutes about their child—their strengths, weaknesses—and you explain your program. It’s face-to-face, and right off the bat, they feel like your partner in their child’s education.

Parents have a lot of influence in the school and in your classroom. If you can get them on board with inclusion, they can support you in so many ways—helping you differentiate lessons, supporting on field trips, creating materials for various children in your class. They’re an extra support system you have access to. I used parents all the time in the classroom. Once you get them in there and show them you want to be partners, appreciate their help, and value their input, you’ll have their trust and support for the rest of the year.

It was continual communication throughout the school year, not just a one-off. Inclusion takes a lot of energy and time, but it’s worth it. The more support you have, the better.

Conversation with Scott

Tim Villegas:
Finally, when I started the podcast, I did a test interview with my friend and colleague Scott, who was—and still is—a general education PE teacher for an elementary school. We talk about what he learned about students with significant disabilities being in his class. Here is our conversation.

Tim Villegas:
What I heard you say before was you normally never saw kids that attended my room in general ed PE up until a couple of years ago. Is that right?

Scott:
Correct.

Tim Villegas:
And so how has having the kids in my room be in gen ed? How has that changed your perspective of them, if at all?

Scott:
I don’t know if it’s changed my perspective of them. It’s gotten me more exposure with them, and I think I can understand them better and have a better sense of what they can do and how they can do it. Then I can help their assistants—the parapros that come in with them—with strategies of what I feel they can or can’t do. I adapt things: “Instead of rolling this kind of ball, I’ll give you this kind of ball,” or whatever.

Even though they use different equipment, that doesn’t mean they have to be on their own. They can still be in a group of four or five with other gen ed kids. When it’s their turn, or when the ball comes to them, we can just use a different ball. A lot of times, the group they’re in—the student and the other four general ed students—will all use whatever ball we adapt to. When they’re fine with that, it means the kids don’t care. They’re happy to help out. I think the general ed kids get as much, if not more, out of your kids being in there than your kids do. It shows them that there are differences, and you have to help people with differences, adapt, and be okay with that.

I think it’s a good situation all around. I’ll tell you, my first experience with kids with disabilities was as a summer camp instructor in Tucker. There was a student in a wheelchair. I had to take him to the bathroom—I’d never done it before. I said, “Okay, let’s go.” He was a bright kid. I had to pick him up, help him with his pants, hold him, and then put him back in his chair. I jokingly said, “How did I do for my first time?” He looked at me like I was the biggest klutz in the world and said, “Pretty good.” I knew I was horrible at it, and here’s this child trying to make me feel better about myself. That put me in my place. It was a great experience for me.

That’s what I think the kids at Kincaid get by being around so many kids with disabilities and challenges. It’s eye-opening and great. When they go out in the real world and see someone who’s different, they’re not going to think much of it. I think it’s great.

Tim Villegas:
Right. Kincaid is a very unique place—not just in Cobb County, but across the country. What do you think is vital for any school? If a principal, assistant principal, or superintendent is listening, what’s one or two things that are vital for inclusion to be successful?

Scott:
You have to include. You have to make their lives and school experience as close to any other student’s as possible. The adaptive PE changes forced us to do more, and I think it’s forced other schools to do more—getting those kids in there. I’m sure you’ve posted about what you’re doing in your classrooms—taking your kids and getting them into other general ed classrooms. This past year, we’ve seen a huge difference in some of your students just by putting them out there with kids and letting them take whatever they’re going to take from it. It’s been amazing to see what they absorb and how they can relay that to us if you give them the chance.

Try to make their experience a mirror image of any other student’s—lunchtime, enrichment, recess. Get them involved with the school as much as you can.