Honoring Intersectionality: LGBTQIA+ and Disability Inclusion in Schools ~ 911

Tim Villegas:
The internet says it’s too late to wish you a happy new year. So happy January, everyone. My name is Tim Villegas, and you are listening to the Think Inclusive podcast presented by MCIE. This podcast exists to build bridges between families, educators, and disability rights advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. To find out more about who we are and what we do, check us out at thinkinclusive.us or on the socials: Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter.

We are bringing you an extra-long episode today. When it’s all produced, it will clock in at around one hour, but I encourage you to settle in for a fascinating discussion. Our guests are Amanda Darrow of the Utah Pride Center and Shamby Polychronis with the University of Utah. We talk about honoring intersectionality between the disability and LGBTQIA+ communities.

We cover a lot of ground, but here’s a quick preview. We discuss how gender differs from sexuality, which differs from sex. We talk about pronouns. They share stats on people who identify as both LGBTQIA+ and disabled. We discuss ways educators can make our classrooms more inclusive for both communities. And Amanda and Shamby respond to the question, “If kids consume media that has LGBTQIA+ representation, won’t it just confuse them?” I’m so glad you’re here. Thanks for listening, subscribing, and rating us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And now, our interview with Amanda Darrow and Shamby Polychronis.

Today on the podcast, we have Amanda Darrow, who holds a master’s degree in education and a bachelor’s degree in clinical and counseling psychology, both from Westminster College in Salt Lake City, Utah. Amanda works at the Utah Pride Center to make homes more accepting and welcoming for youth and families, schools and community spaces more inclusive for all, and to educate the current and future generations about our incredible LGBTQIA+ community.

Dr. Shamby Polychronis is an assistant professor of special education at the University of Utah. She’s a passionate advocate for disability rights and has over 20 years of experience in the field. She advocates for social justice issues, including intersectionality, alternatives to guardianship, full inclusion in school and community environments, eliminating aversive interventions, and meaningful employment. Shamby and Amanda, welcome to the Think Inclusive podcast.

Shamby Polychronis:
Thanks for having us.

Tim Villegas:
I’m really excited to have you both on. I saw a presentation you gave at TASH about honoring intersectionality. For our audience—mostly special education teachers, general education teachers, principals, and administrators around the country and the world—there aren’t enough safe spaces to talk about intersectionality and what it means, and to ask questions about gender, identity, sexuality, attraction, and so on. We were only touching the tip of the iceberg. I wanted to have you on to talk about that with our community.

Before we do, would each of you share your role at the Utah Pride Center and University of Utah, respectively?

Amanda Darrow:
I am the Director of Youth, Family, and Education at the Utah Pride Center. That means I work with families and youth to make their homes more inclusive, and I help schools and community spaces become more welcoming. I also work with educators on how to make their classrooms and curriculum inclusive of the LGBTQIA+ community.

Tim Villegas:
Thanks, Amanda.

Shamby Polychronis:
I’m a professor at the University of Utah. I’ve worked at other colleges and universities and switched about three years ago back to an assistant professor role so I could return to research. My main focus is preparing teacher candidates to become special educators—working in schools and helping teachers meet licensure requirements. I also continue to advocate for disability rights, which covers a broad variety of issues.

Tim Villegas:
I’m sure some of those issues will come up as we talk. To start: when I was a special education teacher, I struggled to have conversations about gender and sexuality. That’s not just an educator thing; many people struggle to have these conversations in meaningful, authentic ways. I was struck by how clear your PowerPoint was. You had a visual—the “Genderbread Person”—that breaks down identity, attraction, sex, and expression. Would you share that with our audience and then we can dive deeper into some of those concepts?

Amanda Darrow:
Absolutely. The Genderbread Person I used was created by Sam Killermann, and you can find it at itspronouncedmetrosexual.com. I want to point out that Sam created the image I used, but we don’t actually know who created the original Genderbread Person. If you’re out there, we’re still searching for you!

The image is widely used in the LGBTQIA+ community to show that we can separate gender identity, gender expression, anatomical sex, and attraction—who we’re sexually and romantically attracted to. Breaking these apart step by step helps people understand the biological components versus how we know ourselves to be.

Amanda Darrow:
I always start with sex because we’re all assigned sex at birth. Traditionally, that’s been female or male, but we’re also seeing individuals assigned intersex. I use the organization InterACT’s definition: “Intersex is an umbrella term for differences in sex traits or reproductive anatomy. Intersex people are born with these differences or develop them in childhood.” There are many possibilities—genitalia, hormones, internal anatomy, chromosomes—beyond the two typical developmental paths we’re taught.

Next is gender identity—who we know ourselves to be. If you are cisgender and were assigned female at birth and identify as a woman, you’re a cisgender woman. That’s me: I was assigned female at birth and identify as a woman.

If your gender identity does not correspond with the sex you were assigned at birth—say you were assigned female at birth and identify as a man—you would be a transgender man. “Transgender” is an umbrella term for anyone whose sex assigned at birth and gender identity do not correspond.

It’s very important: you do not have to go through medical transition to be transgender. The only thing you need to do is know and say that you are transgender. Many people do choose medical transition, but it’s not required. Under the transgender umbrella we also have non-binary, gender fluid, third gender, Two-Spirit, agender, and more—each with distinct identities. For example, someone who is non-binary does not identify within the man/woman binary. That doesn’t mean they’re “in the middle”; it means they’re not binary. Their experience might range.

Amanda Darrow:
These facets may or may not correspond. Gender expression is how we present. People can be gender nonconforming. I’m a very masculine woman—rarely out of a tie. A feminine man is another example of gender nonconforming. Expression doesn’t have to match identity. I’m a cisgender woman with a masculine expression.

There’s also androgyny. People often assume non-binary folks must be androgynous. Not true. You can present very feminine and be non-binary. Androgyny can also be a blend—say a dress shirt, tie, and a skirt—so you can’t categorize it strictly as masculine or feminine.

Then we move to orientation and attraction. When you define orientation based on who you’re attracted to, you have sexual and romantic orientations. Within sexuality, people may identify as lesbian (women attracted to women), gay (men attracted to men, and often used as an umbrella for attraction to the same gender), bisexual (attracted to two genders), pansexual (attracted to all genders and expressions), and heterosexual, among others.

Amanda Darrow:
For romantic orientation: heteroromantic (romantic attraction to a different gender), homoromantic (romantic attraction to the same gender), biromantic (romantic attraction to two genders), panromantic (romantic attraction across genders), and aromantic. People often ask what the “A” stands for. It’s not “ally.” It can stand for aromantic or asexual—“a” as in little or none.

People don’t always think of sexual and romantic orientations as different, but they can be. I could be sexually attracted to women and non-binary people, and romantically attracted to women, men, and non-binary people. When we bring disability into the conversation, there’s a harmful assumption that disabled people are automatically asexual or aromantic and have no attractions. Shamby will dive into that.

Tim Villegas:
A couple things you said surprised me when I first heard them. First, being transgender does not mean someone has to transition medically. That’s a common misconception.

Amanda Darrow:
Everyone’s gender journey is their own. People take the measures they need to find their affirming selves. There isn’t a single path. Many people thought you had to have surgery, take hormones, and follow certain steps to be transgender. That’s not the case. If your sex assigned at birth and your gender identity don’t correlate, and you know yourself to be different from that assignment, you’re transgender. It’s individualized.

Tim Villegas:
The other thing was about pansexual—there are a lot of misconceptions. People listening can learn here, but if we search online there are many interpretations. Where should we go for clarity?

Amanda Darrow:
This is a conversation the community is always building. How I define terms may not be how someone else defines them. When we say “bisexual,” for example, I’ll offer a common community understanding, but an individual might define it in a way that fits them better. The best approach is to ask respectfully: “I’ve heard different definitions of bisexual. What does it mean to you?” Some will explain; some may prefer you to look it up. The point is that language is personal and evolving.

There are great books—Sam Killermann wrote an excellent one on gender. But talking with people in the community is the best way to understand how we identify and what terms mean to us.

Tim Villegas:
I also want to ask about pronouns—how educators can use pronouns in their classroom to normalize and make it more inclusive. Some teachers wonder why they should put pronouns after their names. Help us understand why that matters.

Amanda Darrow:
I hope we use pronouns in everyday life, not just classrooms. When I introduce myself, I say, “My name is Amanda; I use she/her pronouns. It’s nice to meet you. What pronouns do you use?” I do this to avoid misgendering. Assumptions happen, and we can be wrong.

For educators, it’s especially important because respecting pronouns is suicide prevention. When students have their pronouns respected by most people in their lives, they attempt suicide at half the rate of those whose pronouns are not respected. Modeling your pronouns is a first step. I always wear a pronoun pin. We gave out pronoun pins through the Utah Pride Center to educators—in Utah and beyond. The pins simply said she/her, they/them, etc. That opens the door for a student to approach you. Seeing you model it—on classroom walls, door nameplates, email signatures, Zoom—signals safety. Using pronouns saves lives.

Tim Villegas:
That’s powerful and such an easy practice. Shamby, anything to add?

Shamby Polychronis:
Amanda covered it. Even at the college level, I include pronouns in my syllabi, email signature, and Zoom. Mine are she/her. Students have told me they were grateful to see pronouns because they knew I wouldn’t judge them. For teacher education students who identify as trans or non-binary, they’re nervous about licensing realities. When they see pronouns in my tagline, they know they can ask me. Pronouns communicate “I’m open to this conversation,” and they also prevent assumptions—for example, people often expect me to be a middle-aged Greek man from my name alone. Pronouns help for lots of reasons.

Tim Villegas:
You cited numbers about people who identify as both LGBTQIA+ and disabled. This is where intersectionality comes in. Would you share those?

Shamby Polychronis:
Sure. A quick story on why I got interested: my background is disability, guardianship, and inclusion. I taught a class on autism every year, and I began seeing more trans and non-binary college students in that class. They would self-identify and say, “I’m trans and autistic,” or “My sibling is.” By the third year, I thought there might be something here.

In recent years, some interesting numbers have come out. The Movement Advancement Project compiled intersectional data on disability and LGBTQIA+ identities. An estimated 3–5 million people identify as both LGBTQIA+ and disabled. In the general population, about 27.2% report having a disability, but within LGBTQIA+ communities, the numbers are higher: roughly 40% of bisexual men, 40% of transgender adults, 36% of lesbian and bisexual women, and 26% of gay men report having a disability. Aside from gay men, the reported rates are significantly higher than in the general population.

And let me emphasize: LGBTQIA+ identity is not a disability. Within special education, we often see assumptions—either presuming cisgender identity and asexuality, or misinterpreting behaviors. Both are problematic.

There’s also notable data at the autism intersection. About 14% of transgender or non-binary adults identify as autistic, compared to roughly 4% in the general population. It could be higher—MAP estimates an additional 28% above that 14% when considering undiagnosed individuals who display autistic traits. In self-advocacy spaces, self-identification as autistic is increasingly recognized (though diagnosis is required for services). It can help people explain how they interact with others.

Tim Villegas:
In your research, beyond autism, is there signal across other neurodivergent identities?

Shamby Polychronis:
Great question. Most research attention and funding have focused on autism, which helps explain why we have more data there. There may be emerging work on ADHD, OCD, and other neurodivergences, but the clearest numbers right now are in autism. I anticipate we’ll see more research across neurodiverse identities soon.

Tim Villegas:
For both of you: what can educators do to make classrooms and schools more inclusive for both LGBTQIA+ and disability communities?

Shamby Polychronis:
I see a three-layered approach. First, individual relationship-building. Pronouns are a way to signal, “Come talk to me; I’m open to this.” Second, the environment—Amanda will share practical strategies. Third, policy. Leaders need to push back against extreme conservative actions that remove books and shut down discussion. In conservative contexts, even basic sexual health is hard to address unless it’s tied to an IEP goal. Teachers steer away from everything—menstruation, what to do when students self-stim in sexual ways, etc.—because everything uncomfortable gets lumped together as “bad.” We have to reframe this as suicide prevention, mental health, functional life skills, inclusion, and safety. The current climate—with book bans and fear—chases educators from the field.

Amanda Darrow:
Deadnaming is a big issue. A deadname is a legal birth name a transgender or non-binary student no longer uses. Avoid using it. Systems don’t always allow updates, and teachers can forget to inform substitutes, so students get deadnamed. When a student tells you their name, ask: “Who would you like me to use this name with? Parents/caregivers? Other educators?” Sometimes you must code-switch to avoid outing a student. Do the same for pronouns: “Do you want me to use these pronouns with other educators or your parents?” Your job is not to out students; it’s to keep them safe.

Think about how we gender classrooms, especially in elementary grades. Hall passes labeled “boys” and “girls”—where do non-binary students go? Lining up by “boys and girls,” or seating “boy-girl-boy-girl,” assumes gender identities. Remove those assumptions.

On curriculum: representation matters. Include LGBTQIA+ authors and stories. Also examine existing materials that reinforce heteronormativity. For example, a story where a brother takes more rice because he “has a family to feed,” while a sister takes less because “her husband should provide,” reinforces gender stereotypes and presumes heterosexual marriage. If we show those families, we must also show families with two women, two men, non-binary partners—reflect the diversity of families. This is part of the hidden curriculum. If someone pushes back, we can point out that normative depictions are already present; inclusive materials must be present too.

Shamby Polychronis:
A few harmful assumptions to challenge: treating disability-related support needs as “error,” presuming lack of interest in sexuality for disabled students, or presuming excessive sexual interest among LGBTQIA+ students. Disability does not create confusion about identity, expression, or attraction; LGBTQIA+ identity is not a disability. Also, the “fixing” mindset—viewing people as broken—has led to harmful, even deadly treatments. The “mourning the child you thought you had” narrative creates secondary trauma.

Legally, ADA can support accommodations for mental health needs that arise from chronic stressors—bathroom access, transition routines, etc.—including via IEPs/504s. Under IDEA, allowing bullying can violate FAPE; schools can be held accountable to remediate. Title IX prohibits harassment or punishment for failing to conform to sex-based stereotypes, so examine dress codes and discipline practices. If we operate from a heteronormative framework, we may be violating laws.

Tim Villegas:
For principals or administrators who are hearing this and wondering if their school is heteronormative—what’s a next step, and where can they learn more?

Amanda Darrow:
I’m hosting a virtual conference on LGBTQIA+ inclusion in schools on January 22. Educators can join us at utahpridecenter.org. It includes tracks for administrators, educators, community, and students—practical ideas to make schools more inclusive.

First step: walk into your school and look around. Is there visible representation—rainbow or trans stickers, inclusive signage—that communicates “you are welcome, you belong, I value you”? Students can’t learn in spaces where they don’t feel safe. If we constantly signal that hetero- and cisnormativity are the expectation, some students won’t learn as effectively. We owe LGBTQIA+ students inclusive environments. Also, commit to ongoing professional learning—for LGBTQIA+, disability, BIPOC students, and beyond. We’re not a cookie-cutter society; our schools shouldn’t be either.

Tim Villegas:
Before we started recording, you mentioned something happening locally. Would you explain?

Amanda Darrow:
Here in Utah, a district pulled titles that included LGBTQIA+ authors or people of color. The Utah Library Association and educators are pushing back. We held a press conference. Some conservative parents are pushing to pull books without reading them. We’re asking people to read the entire book before challenging it. The first big pushback in our state came from Call Me Max by Kyle Lukoff, used in a third-grade classroom. Some parents claimed we were teaching sex. That book is about a transgender child. Being transgender is a gender identity, not a sexual orientation. Saying we’re “teaching sex” is inaccurate.

The broader pattern is that anything LGBTQIA+ is labeled “about sex” and “not age-appropriate,” which leads to excluding LGBTQIA+ identities from classrooms. But we’re talking about love and identity, not sex—especially in elementary grades. Exclusion leads to lower academic achievement, bullying, family rejection, increased mental health problems, social exclusion, and higher suicidality. Representation belongs in schools. And banning books often makes students want to read them more.

Tim Villegas:
On representation: as a media company invested in authentic disability representation, we also want authentic LGBTQIA+ representation. Critics say, “If kids read these books or see non-heteronormative relationships, they’ll get confused or think they’re something they’re not.” How do you respond?

Amanda Darrow:
We also hear “it might turn them gay.” Books don’t do that. Books prompt thinking and questioning—which is good. Gender and sexuality are social constructs with norms attached. We should question and explore. If a book makes you reflect on your own sexuality or gender, that’s learning. As educators, we turn that into teachable moments. We’ll only grow as a society when we allow everyone to explore their own journeys.

Shamby Polychronis:
I can speak as a cisgender, straight, white woman with a lot of privilege—and also as a woman who earns seventy cents on the dollar. If I read a book suggesting women don’t need as much money because men provide, I should question that and talk about it. In my traditional teacher prep, we didn’t talk about sexuality or many hard parts of our jobs. When intersectionality started coming up, I worried about saying the wrong thing, so I said nothing. Working with people like Amanda helped me question, feel discomfort, affirm my values, and grow. Growth is hard and we see pushback on growth all the time.

I’ll share an example: Drag Syndrome, a London-based professional drag troupe of performers with Down syndrome. My first reaction—very protective and paternalistic—was to worry about exploitation. Then I had to pull that back and examine my unconscious bias. I encourage listeners to think about two parallel journeys: (1) our personal journey to surface bias, challenge our thinking, and adjust our environments (“Do I have gendered words all over my walls with no room for anyone else?”); and (2) our professional journey to help others—creating safe spaces, building relationships, challenging policies, and working with administrators to fix schoolwide problems. In conservative states, many of us were taught rigid right/wrong from childhood. If maintaining that belief system endangers a student, we have to find a way to honor our core values while also doing our job to keep the student safe.

Tim Villegas:
This has been a fascinating conversation. Shamby Polychronis and Amanda Darrow, I could easily talk for another hour. I hope listeners see the connection: we fight hard for disability rights and inclusive education, and we also need to include LGBTQIA+ communities. Inclusive education is about all students, not just a segment. Thank you for your time and for being on the podcast.

Shamby Polychronis:
Thank you.

Tim Villegas:
That will do it for this episode of the Think Inclusive podcast. Subscribe via Apple Podcasts, the Anchor app, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@thinkinclusive.us. We love to know that you’re listening.

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Thank you for helping us equip more people to promote and sustain inclusive education. This podcast is a production of MCIE, where we envision a society where neighborhood schools welcome all learners and create the foundation for inclusive communities. Learn more at mcie.org.

We’ll be back in a couple of weeks with our guest Greta Harrison, host of the Born Fabulous podcast. Thanks for your time and attention. Until next time, remember: inclusion always works.