Beyond Six Seconds: Carolyn Kiel on Neurodiversity and Authentic Inclusion ~ 1022

Tim Villegas
From MCIE. Neurodiversity and podcasting, two of my very favorite topics. My name is Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, and you are listening to Think Inclusive, a show where with every conversation, we try to build bridges between families, educators, and disability rights advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. You can learn more about who we are and what we do at mcie.org.

On this episode of Think Inclusive, I speak with Carolyn Kiel, who is an experienced instructional designer of employee training programs. On her podcast Beyond Six Seconds, she features neurodivergent and disabled entrepreneurs, creatives, and advocates who shatter misconceptions, break stigma, and showcase the vibrance and diversity of these communities.

Here’s what I cover with Carolyn Kiel in this episode: the meaning behind the title of her podcast Beyond Six Seconds and why she made the leap into podcasting five years ago, what it has been like to be diagnosed with autism later in life, and what she hopes educators learn by listening to neurodivergent people.

Before we get into today’s interview, I want to tell you about our sponsor Together Letters. Are you losing touch with people in your life, but you don’t want to be on social media all the time? Together Letters is a tool that can help. It’s a group email newsletter that asks its members for updates and combines them into a single newsletter for everyone. All you need is email. We are using Together Letters so Think Inclusive patrons can keep in touch with each other. And groups of 10 or less are free. You can sign up right now at togetherletters.com. Thank you so much for listening. And now my interview with Carolyn Kiel. Carolyn, welcome.

Carolyn Kiel
Hi, Tim, thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here. Beyond Six Seconds is a podcast that I’ve been hosting for about five years now. I talk with neurodivergent and disabled entrepreneurs, content creators, advocates, and more about their lives and identities. I really just try to provide a balanced and full picture of what it’s like to be neurodivergent or disabled.

The meaning of the name Beyond Six Seconds—I got that from a study by one of those career sites years ago. It’s a statistic that says recruiters only look at your resume for about six seconds before they make a judgment on your experience and whether or not you’re a fit for a particular role. So I thought it would be a good basis for a name of a podcast. We’ll go beyond those six seconds because I wanted my platform to provide more time for people to share their stories.

When I originally started five years ago, I was not focusing on neurodiversity or disability specifically. At that time, I was interviewing some of my friends that I had on social media and some other people who I knew in my personal life about some of the really interesting projects or jobs or other interests they had. I wanted to give them a platform for talking about the cool things they were doing because they weren’t out on social media talking about it a lot. It’s that concept of you may pass someone in the hallway or just know someone as an acquaintance and not realize what they’ve achieved in their lives or the cool things they’re involved in.

Some of the people I interviewed were working with drone technology, my friend who went to an orphanage and helped found a music program in India, and other things like that. I found those stories very interesting, and they don’t really make it into that 30-second little soundbite that we’re so often pressured to share when we’re talking on social media or presenting to a group.

About a year ago, at the beginning of 2022, I decided to switch to focusing on neurodiversity and disability after discovering that I am neurodivergent myself. I can talk more about that story a little later. Since then, I’ve been focusing mainly on neurodiversity because as I learned about what neurodiversity was, I realized that I was only really hearing stories about it from third-party resources or experts, not from neurodivergent people themselves. The same with disability. I wanted to broaden those types of stories and bring them to the forefront, hearing directly from people who were impacted. That’s why I pivoted the podcast about a year ago.

Tim Villegas
I think that’s so important to hear from neurodivergent people themselves. My history is as a special education teacher, and when I first started in the field, all I learned about disability was from books and from other “experts.” But they more often than not did not have a disability. So like you, when I started to hear the stories from neurodivergent people, I was like, “Oh, these are the real experts.”

You have Beyond Six Seconds, and you’re telling other people’s stories. But what is the story about you that you want to tell?

Carolyn Kiel
Sure. I guess I can tell my podcasting-related story since we’re talking about the podcast. My story is that I started podcasting in late 2017. The podcast itself launched in January 2018, but I had been working toward the end of 2017 to get it set up.

The reason I chose podcasting is because I was looking for a creative outlet for myself at that time. Before that, I was a singer—and I’m still a singer, though not actively singing in any groups at the moment. I was in an a cappella singing group based in New York City. I would go down there for rehearsals after work, and we did a lot of great performances around the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut area.

Eventually, the group kind of dissolved—everyone moved out of the city. Around 2017, I started a new job much farther away from New York City, so it was harder for me to get to rehearsals. I was taking a break from the singing group, but I really missed that creativity and the ability to create something new.

I wanted something that was “my own,” where I had creative control and direction. I had started listening to podcasts a couple of months before that, so I knew a little about what they were. I thought, “I’ve been in a singing group, so I know a little about microphones and audio recording. Maybe I can close that gap, learn a little more, and try out doing a podcast.”

I decided I’d interview my friends and ask them about the things they’re passionate about because it’s usually easy to get people to talk about what they’re excited and proud of. I wanted to see how good of an interviewer I could be because I had never done that before. I’m actually a very shy and introverted person, so I didn’t even know if I could do this. But I thought, “Let’s try it out—one-on-one conversations.”

I recorded a few episodes toward the end of 2017, got those ready, and launched. From there, I started getting listeners and people interested in being on the show—friends of former guests, referrals, and so on. For the first four years, it was guided by whether I had an intrinsic interest in the type of story the person was telling.

Then in 2020, the pandemic hit. I was already podcasting by then. A lot of people started around that time, but I just kept going. I even got some “dream guests” because they were home and available.

As the pandemic went on, around early 2021, I started feeling a lot of stress and not like myself—losing steam and enthusiasm. I think a lot of people can relate to that. Around that time, I started thinking about how I coped with things during the pandemic and in childhood.

I had interviewed a couple of disabled content creators before, and through social media algorithms, I found the #ActuallyAutistic community. I connected with an autistic content creator, had him as a guest in April 2021, and kept following the community. I realized how familiar a lot of these experiences felt.

I started reading blogs, watching YouTube videos, and learning more. At first, I thought, “Maybe this is just anxiety or shyness,” but the more I read, the more it resonated. I learned how late-diagnosed autistic women often go through a pipeline of labels before autism is considered.

Eventually, I pursued a diagnosis in late 2021. The #ActuallyAutistic community absolutely accepts self-diagnosis, but I was privileged to access someone who could assess adult autistic women. I got a diagnosis of autism. That was almost a year ago, and I’m still processing what it means.

It hasn’t changed my day-to-day life much, but it’s helped me be kinder to myself when I experience sensory overload or need to stim. For example, I have a little orange rubber ring I squeeze—a stim toy.

After that, I wanted to learn more about neurodiversity beyond autism. My podcast now leans toward autistic guests, but I’ve also interviewed people with dyspraxia, dyslexia, ADHD, auditory processing disorder, and even someone with Down syndrome.

I’m fascinated by people’s experiences because when I was in school in the ’80s and ’90s, we knew so little about autism—basically just “Rain Man.” Even with two psychology degrees, I learned almost nothing about autism or ADHD in school. So I had to self-study.

I’m glad I discovered these stories because otherwise, you just get information from the loudest voices or self-proclaimed experts, which isn’t always the full picture.

Tim Villegas
It’s a strange time to live right now. I grew up in the ’90s, pre-internet, where you got your information from strict gatekeepers. Now anyone can put anything out there—anyone can have a podcast or a YouTube channel. In one sense, it’s great because you have access to information. On the other hand, it’s not so great because there’s so much misinformation, especially about disability and autism.

Something you said reminded me of Steve Silberman’s TED Talk called The Forgotten History of Autism. Have you seen that?

Carolyn Kiel
I haven’t, no.

Tim Villegas
Are you familiar with Steve Silberman?

Carolyn Kiel
I am.

Tim Villegas
It’s a video, about 12 or 13 minutes long. I show it to a lot of teachers because part of my job is podcasts, social media, and writing, but sometimes I’m involved with training educators. He talks about misdiagnosis and the non-diagnosis of people who are female or assigned female at birth. It’s striking.

As a podcaster, I started Think Inclusive in 2012 as a side gig while teaching. Eight years later, it became part of my job. So I’m wondering about your podcast. You started five years ago, and you have a day job. What is your dream for the podcast? Would you want it to be your full-time job, or are you satisfied with it being a side thing?

Carolyn Kiel
It’s interesting because recently at my job—very recently—I might actually be doing a little podcasting as part of my job. Not as my full job, but something we just started talking about a couple of weeks ago. That’s exciting, but it’s also given me a taste of what it’s like to do a podcast related to a job versus my own podcast, where I can do anything I want anytime I want.

At the moment, between Beyond Six Seconds and the work I’m doing during my day job, it’s a lot of podcasting. So I’m thinking, I don’t know if I’d want to do podcasting as my full-time job. I never say never, but I’m not 100% sure. I tend to like doing a lot of different things or having variety in my day job, which I fortunately do now. I design training for a large corporation—different kinds of training, different audiences, different topics—so it’s a nice variety.

In terms of a dream or goal for Beyond Six Seconds, I’d love for it to be considered one of the top neurodiversity podcasts. I don’t know if that means downloads and streams or just being known. I’m not looking to be an influencer around neurodiversity. Despite being in my mid-40s, I’m still very new to knowing I’m autistic, so I don’t feel like an expert. I know my experience, but I can’t speak for others, which is why I have a platform to learn and share.

The advocacy I’m doing is about sharing and elevating voices, breaking stereotypes, and educating people in a welcoming way. I recently applied for an award—got nominated but didn’t win. I’d like to win something like that to get more exposure for the podcast. I don’t need to be a big influencer, but I’d love people to discover the podcast, learn about different conditions, or feel validated and seen.

I’ve gotten feedback from people who’ve had their minds changed about certain conditions, which is important to me. If I can reach more people and open more minds, that would be exciting.

Tim Villegas
I absolutely agree with changing people’s minds. I believe podcasts do that. I’m so happy to support the work you’re doing with Beyond Six Seconds and other creators. When we support each other, we grow this industry more and more—whether we’re hobbyists, part-timers, or full-time podcasters. I’m happy to introduce you to our audience.

Our audience is mostly educators, with some family members of children with disabilities, disability rights advocates, and disabled creators. As you think about our audience and your experience in school—you said you came to diagnosis later in life—what message would you want to leave with educators?

Carolyn Kiel
If you work with neurodivergent students, take time to listen to neurodivergent voices—on blogs, social media, or in real life. A lot of frustration I hear from the autistic community is tension between autistic adults and parents of autistic children, not realizing they can benefit from each other’s experiences.

Especially with autism and ADHD, people think only children have it, and once you turn 18 or 21, it goes away. That’s not true—it’s lifelong. Adults talk about what it was like in school decades ago—how great it was with the right support and how hard it was when misunderstood. Educators have an incredible opportunity to support students, and clues often come from listening to autistic or neurodivergent adults.

Autism and other neurodivergences are often judged by behaviors instead of what it feels like for the student. Behaviors seen as stubbornness or disobedience might actually be sensory overload or inability to process. Adults can explain what that feels like.

Another challenge: many kids and adults don’t know they’re neurodivergent. They’re coping the best they can. So you may have students without a diagnosis. Learn as much as you can. Follow autistic or neurodivergent creators, blogs, YouTube channels, or podcasts. Everyone’s experience is unique, but hearing a few gives you a broader understanding of what it’s like for kids.

Tim Villegas
Looking back on your school experience, did you feel supported?

Carolyn Kiel
My school experience was interesting. I went to a small public school—graduating class of 85. We were mostly together K–12. I spent most of my time in what was then called the Gifted and Talented program. There was no concept of twice-exceptional students then—you were either in gifted, general ed, or special ed.

I got along fine but didn’t have deep connections. I had a small group of friends outside my classes and was a competitive musician, which gave me community. I played saxophone and sang, so most of my extracurriculars were music-related.

I was always shy and quiet. One-on-one, I could talk, but in groups, I’d go silent because I didn’t know when to speak—a common autistic trait. No one called me on it, so I didn’t think it was unusual. Presentations were fine because grading was mostly on writing and projects. Gym class was a disaster—another autistic thing, being uncoordinated.

I had a period of deep depression in high school that colored my social life, but college was great. I liked structure and learning new things. Vassar was a good fit—great academics and communities.

My experience was unusual for an autistic student because I was in the gifted program. Some consider giftedness a neurodiversity itself. Many autistic and ADHD students wind up in gifted programs because they’re smart, but they’re not supported in other ways. Sometimes challenges arise after school.

Tim Villegas
It sounds like you experienced belonging in various forms—high school, college.

Carolyn Kiel
Yes. When I struggled with depression, I lacked belonging. Otherwise, I had communities, even if I didn’t make lifelong friends. Today, I have a few close friends, and I’m grateful for that.

Tim Villegas
Is inclusion something you cover with your guests?

Carolyn Kiel
I haven’t done a deep dive, but I think about it. For me, inclusion starts with listening to people’s experiences and believing them. I’ve been thinking about accommodations—not just legal ones, but being accommodating in general. Don’t assume—ask people what they need.

In workplaces, people often want to help but don’t ask. Inclusion means hearing voices and integrating their input—whether developing a product or creating an accessible classroom or workplace. Give people the opportunity to share without fear of retribution.

Tim Villegas
I like how you put that—listening without judgment. Inclusion involves trust. If I disclose something and you respond well, it builds trust.

Carolyn Kiel
Exactly. And for people like me who were late diagnosed, many want or need accommodations but don’t know why. They don’t know they’re neurodivergent. Companies aren’t legally obligated without a diagnosis, but why wouldn’t you provide a simple accommodation?

Tim Villegas
Anything we didn’t cover that you want to mention?

Carolyn Kiel
Yes—presume competence. I interviewed Noah Seback, a nonspeaking autistic advocate. He communicates by spelling on a letter board. He was treated like a first grader for years because he couldn’t speak, but he’s brilliant.

Non-speaking autistics often say: presume competence. Don’t assume someone who can’t communicate is intellectually inferior. Keep teaching, keep looking for ways to communicate. That applies to all students—don’t assume they’re not smart if they struggle in one environment.

Tim Villegas
Carolyn Kiel, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive podcast.

Carolyn Kiel
Thanks, Tim.

Tim Villegas
Think Inclusive is written, edited, and sound-designed by Tim Villegas and is a production of MCIE. Original music by Miles Kredich. If you enjoyed today’s episode, become a patron for ad-free content, behind-the-scenes posts, and more. Visit MCIE.org for information about inclusive education. Remember: inclusion always works.