Designing Schools for Belonging: Jordyn Zimmerman on Inclusion and AAC Tools ~ 1310

Jordyn Zimmerman I’m sharing from the place of being segregated in closets and then meaningfully included in classrooms, of being in the most restrictive placements with two to three staff assigned to me, to being fully included, of being labeled as someone who couldn’t, and then doing so. We have nothing to lose, but everything to gain. So why don’t we try? We really need a fully funded national framework that boldly leans into inclusive education and ensures schools have the resources and shared understanding that is needed to support students.

Tim Villegas Hello friends. Welcome back to Think Inclusive. Real conversations about building schools where every learner belongs. I’m your host, Tim Villegas. Today’s episode is about challenging the status quo in education and redefining what’s possible when we presume competence and prioritize communication access. Our guest is Jordyn Zimmerman, a passionate educator, disability advocate, and accessibility innovator, diagnosed as autistic. At a young age, Jordyn didn’t receive access to augmentative and alternative communication until she was 18. That experience fuels her mission to ensure every learner has the tools and supports they need to thrive.

We talk about her journey from segregation to inclusion, the power of presuming competence, and how policy and practice must evolve to create truly inclusive communities. Jordyn shares insights from her work with Communication First, her role at the Nora Project, now being integrated into Center for Enriched Living, and what it means to measure success beyond placement numbers.

Before we meet our guest, I want to tell you about our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by IXL. IXL is an all-in-one platform for K-12 that helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress in one place. As students practice, IXL adapts to their individual needs so that every learner gets just right support and challenge, and each student gets a personalized learning plan to close gaps. Check it out at ixl.com/inclusive. Again, that’s ixl.com/inclusive.

Before we jump into the conversation with Jordyn, I want to share something important about how this episode is edited. So for the first part of our interview, it’s about the first 20 minutes. We’ve intentionally kept the natural pauses that happen when Jordyn types out her responses. This was a decision that we made together to honor her communication method and to highlight the importance of presuming competence. These pauses are a reminder that effective communication doesn’t always happen instantly, and that patience is a powerful way to show respect. So as you listen, I invite you to sit with the silence. At around 20 minutes, we’ll tighten up the pacing a bit, but for now, let’s lean into the moment and hear from Jordyn Zimmerman. Okay, after a quick break. It’s time to think inclusive with Jordyn Zimmerman. Catch you on the other side.

Tim Villegas Jordyn Zimmerman, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Jordyn Zimmerman Thanks for having me, Tim.

Tim Villegas I want to jump right in if that’s okay. We’ve had conversations before and I’ve heard you on other podcasts. You did a keynote for one of our MCIE Summer Institutes. So I know a little bit about your story, and I know our audience does as well. But I really want to start off with a question about presuming competence, because some people may listen to you and watch you on this video and go, that is so great that Jordyn has access to a communication device, has her voice, but you don’t know my kid. You don’t know my student, and they would never be able to do that. So I’d love to know what is the benefit of presuming competence for everyone.

Jordyn Zimmerman Yeah, that’s a really real perspective, and I understand it. I’m one person and I don’t claim to represent every person who needs or uses AAC. I’m sharing from the place of being segregated in closets and then meaningfully included in classrooms, of being in the most restrictive placements with two to three staff assigned to me, to being fully included, of being labeled as someone who couldn’t, and then doing so. This is about more than a communication system. This is about figuring out what works and not having prerequisites on someone’s access to community. What works for me absolutely might not work for someone else and vice versa, but we don’t know what someone knows and we don’t know what someone can do. We have nothing to lose, but everything to gain. So why don’t we try?

Tim Villegas Exactly. Wow. I just want to highlight what you said about that. This is more than just access to a communication device. It’s really the—well, you didn’t exactly say least dangerous assumption, but I think that that is where that idea of it’s not going to hurt us. It’s the least dangerous assumption to give the opportunity for anyone to have access to an inclusive learning environment and a communication system. We need to try. So I really appreciate your words. Any other thoughts about that?

Jordyn Zimmerman We don’t know what we don’t know. And it’s okay to not know, but what we shouldn’t be okay with is to not try.

Tim Villegas Thanks for that, Jordyn. I know that you are interested and have done work around policy and specifically in education policy, and so I’d love to know if you can make one national policy change to guarantee inclusive education, what would that be?

Jordyn Zimmerman Yeah, so I think we sort of need to position ourselves in this moment, and so first and foremost, we need people to understand that the inclusion of students with disabilities is a right, but it’s also been really messy, and so we need to grapple with that. The enforcement structure of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act is essentially private, meaning that a family or student who believes their rights are being violated must file a complaint, and then to challenge a separate or segregated placement. Families often navigate and endure a confusing, cumbersome, and sometimes very expensive legal process, which can take years to reach a resolution. All that to say we really need a fully funded national framework that boldly leans into inclusive education and ensures schools have the resources and shared understanding that is needed to support students. What we have has worked in terms of providing protections at the most basic level, but we need to create accountability and not just make inclusion an aspiration, because that’s really what it is for so many students and families and even educators.

Tim Villegas You brought up a really great point about how IDEA and decisions that are made at the IEP team with families in school districts, they’re—it’s like a private. And like what you said, it’s like private decisions, it’s like a private matter, right? And a lot of times what we see is numbers. So, you know, anyone right now can look at placement numbers in general education. They can look up the inclusion rate, inclusive placement rate. But how can schools measure success with inclusion that’s just beyond placement numbers?

Jordyn Zimmerman That’s a great question. We send a lot of statements about people with disabilities by what we choose to measure, or on the flip side, what we choose not to. I guess I do want to caveat this though, because I often hear a lot of pushback on how inclusion isn’t just being in the general education classroom, and that’s true, but being in that classroom is a starting point. And again, I say this from the perspective of someone who has been both in a segregated closet and in a classroom. The hellos are different, the conversations are different, and the air is different. We need to measure placement numbers and we need to make sure those numbers accurately reflect the work. But then we also need to measure learning—the gaps in instructional time that students with disabilities face are staggering. We need to measure that difference and celebrate the success when it’s happening. And then all backed by research we need to consider and keep better data on graduation rates, employment rates, and post-school happiness. Even further though, I would also argue that very few educators actually feel satisfied and emotionally okay in underwhelming spaces. So we should probably measure their happiness too, especially when they as educators get to be part of the school community, no longer just existing in the separate space.

Tim Villegas I love that you are thinking about educators and measuring their happiness.

Jordyn Zimmerman Oh my gosh, Tim, I hear it all the time. Segregated special educators feel so distant in the school community, but we’ve seen what happens when that shifts and we should measure it.

Tim Villegas Hearing that makes me happy that that is something on your mind. And as a former teacher in a segregated classroom, I definitely felt separate and othered. So I think we should definitely keep that in mind as we are measuring effectiveness and success. So I appreciate that.

Tim Villegas (2) Coming up, Jordyn shares how inclusive education goes beyond placement, why communication is a basic human right, and what it takes to redesign schools for true belonging. This show is produced by the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, MCIE. MCIE partners with educators and school systems to promote authentic inclusion, foster change, and support the implementation of inclusive practices, whether it’s district-wide transformation, customized learner planning, or professional learning and coaching. MCIE walks alongside educators every step of the way. And here’s the best part. Our work begins with a conversation. So if you’re ready to create schools where every learner belongs, visit mcie.org to get in touch and start that conversation today.

Tim Villegas I’d like to talk about what a strong district policy would look like to make sure every student has access to effective communication. What are your thoughts about that?

Jordyn Zimmerman Yeah, so I’m going to go simple. Here we are, in talking chemistry or accounting. This is literally a basic human right. Any student who has a speech disability with no speech or limited speech should have access to their chosen AAC tools and supports at all times. It’s in their IEP and all educators are trained.

Tim Villegas Why do you think that doesn’t happen though?

Jordyn Zimmerman There’s a couple reasons, but often it is the prerequisites placed upon someone. For example, kids need to sit still first. They need to show motor control. They need to prove they understand cause and effect. And still the research has shown kids don’t need any of those skills before gaining access to robust language-based AAC. It’s essentially the vehicle that can build those skills and schools continue denying it.

Tim Villegas That is all too real. So I appreciate you bringing that to light. I want to ask two more questions about your inclusive education, and then I want to get to the Nora Project. So the first question is about your film, This is Not About Me, and in the film it’s basically your story of what you just described at the beginning of our conversation, of you being in a segregated environment, you not having access to communication, and then now having access to communication, being in an inclusive classroom and letting the world know your thoughts about that and how everyone should have access. So everyone should see the film, and especially educators, and educators that want more inclusive schools. So if somebody, if an educator sees the film, This is Not About Me, what are some next steps that they can take for their classroom or even their school?

Jordyn Zimmerman This is an interesting question and it might be unpopular, but This is Not About Me is told in documentary style, and that’s intentional. It’s not telling people what to see or what to do, but rather educating, informing, and inviting them to make their own conclusions and takeaways. But with that, I hope it does lead to major shifts in the system and I’m grateful for all the change it has made, both for young kids who are being introduced to AAC much earlier within schools who are more readily presuming competence. And even beyond that in the medical field and in communities.

Tim Villegas No doubt, it has made a huge impact with everyone who’s seen it, and I’m so thankful that it’s in the world and it’s a wonderful film. Everyone should see it, so thank you. Thank you for that. One last thing. As far as AAC goes in inclusive schools, are there things that AAC devices should have—like features—with AAC or an ed tech tool? Maybe things that we wouldn’t necessarily think of, because I know you are connected to that world.

Jordyn Zimmerman Yeah, I’ll say that it really depends on the tool, but obviously a tool needs to be accessible and therefore usable, so it needs to adapt to people’s physical, motor, communication, cognitive, and other needs. But really, whether it’s an AAC tool or ed tech, it shouldn’t be designed without the community involved and actually leading on it. I think that continues to be a huge oversight in terms of who’s at the table today, not only being at the table tomorrow, but also deciding what our needs are.

Tim Villegas Absolutely, absolutely right. Yes. If we’re designing a tool that is going to be used by disabled individuals, they should be involved with the design of it, it makes sense.

Jordyn Zimmerman Not just involved—equal partners on determining the design and development process and going through that process from beginning to end.

Tim Villegas A hundred percent. Thanks for that, Jordyn, really appreciate that. Let’s switch gears. I would like to talk about the Nora Project, which you’ve been involved with for quite a long time. And the Nora Project has recently joined the Center for Enriched Living. Some of our listeners may know what the Nora Project is, and some may not. I’m wondering if you could help us understand. What’s the Nora Project and how, with it being connected to the Center for Enriched Living, if that is, has, is changing it at all.

Jordyn Zimmerman Yeah, of course. The Nora Project is now integrated into CEL, a nonprofit based in Illinois. For listeners who know us and those who are new, we are still working to build inclusive classrooms through a suite of offerings, including curricula and professional learning. Educators can still expect the same high quality curricular materials, learning management system, professional learning, and access to support. In terms of what’s different, our name and branding are slowly changing and we have better infrastructure, but we still have programmatic independence for much of the same.

Tim Villegas Okay, that’s great to know. One of the tools that the Nora Project has is the Standards for Inclusive Schools, which I think I was actually on a webinar where you explained what that was and it’s fantastic. It’s a great tool. I’m wondering what are some things to look for in classrooms when a district is using the standards for inclusive schools?

Jordyn Zimmerman Like most standards in education, our standards for inclusive schools are open access and written in a way where we are not necessarily examining classrooms. The goal here is not to achieve the standards, but rather to use them as ideals where there is a clear vision and roadmap with the goal of all educators and students feeling a sense of belonging. The standards are broken into domains of diversity, community, and advocacy, and from there, educator and student standards. From my personal perspective, I think the look for of whether instructional tools and supports that are being used take into account multiple modes of learning, how students understand their needs and the needs of others, and how both educators and students feel about affecting change are good starting points.

Tim Villegas It seems like the standards and how you put them together are really trying to extend beyond placement, right? Like what we talked about at the beginning of our conversation where we’re measuring placement, we’re measuring inclusive placement, right? How do we measure what goes beyond that? It starts with placement, but then there’s something beyond it. And so I feel like what you have in these standards are really things that educators and students can work towards, like you said, ideal. So wonderful job with the standards. So really appreciate all of your work on that. Is there any particular challenges that you’ve noticed with implementing or trying to work with the standards?

Jordyn Zimmerman Yeah, so something that is a continuous struggle, whether it’s regarding our standards or other product aligned to the standards for inclusive schools, is how schools are designed. As we have talked about, students with disabilities, especially significant disabilities, are most commonly not included in the learning. And the standards for inclusive schools apply to all students without any exception. But if there are no students with disabilities in the classroom, these standards cannot be continuously pursued.

Tim Villegas It just, like you said, placement, inclusive placements is the starting point. If they’re not there, we can’t, we’re not an inclusive school, right?

Jordyn Zimmerman Definitely. And school is the hub of community. So let’s make it that.

Tim Villegas So you’ve had a number of different roles with the Nora Project. What is your current role with the Nora Project now that it’s joined CEL?

Jordyn Zimmerman My title has changed a couple times, but the work is largely still the same. I’m currently the manager of education, product and program development where I essentially lead on all the product and programming needs and decide where we go when it comes to mapping out next steps to make an impact in building inclusive classrooms. In the past and now we are constantly revising what the work means and reevaluating how we can create impact.

Tim Villegas What do you envision for the future with your products?

Jordyn Zimmerman You might just have to stay tuned.

Tim Villegas You’re not gonna give me anything. That’s okay. That’s okay. I will, we will be staying tuned. We will. Congrats on your MBA. So congratulations. It’s really exciting. I’m wondering if you have a business strategy tool that might apply to how school leaders are trying to scale inclusion. Let’s start there.

Jordyn Zimmerman Thanks, Tim. I really think starting basic and using an analysis to look at strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats is a great strategy. It’s a very structured way to see where a school is, what barriers or influences there are externally, and then it provides an opportunity to drive strategy and resources around those findings. We know inclusion works, but it’s also a really smart thing to do. I mentioned educators earlier, and if we are thinking about them becoming not only happier but skilled and adaptable, or the societal return on investment, there’s a huge business case here for better cost benefits as well as long-term cost savings.

Tim Villegas I love that application of the SWOT analysis to schools. Is that something that you’ve applied at the Nora Project or CEL?

Jordyn Zimmerman It is not, more so personally. And I’ll also just add that looking at numbers in the business case, inclusive education might require some initial investment. But again, the long term cost savings and overall benefits are immeasurable for students, families, educators, the school, the community, everyone.

Tim Villegas That is what we’ve seen as far as the initial investment in inclusive practices, that it doesn’t cost any additional money in the long term, because of the benefits for the educators, the students. So, thank you. Okay. Before we get to the mystery question, I wanted to ask you, where can people find out more about you, the Nora Project, and Center for Enriched Living?

Jordyn Zimmerman People can find me at jordynzimmerman.com and can learn more about our work at CEL and the Nora Project at experiencecel.org/education.

Tim Villegas We have covered everything from presuming competence and inclusive policy to the power of communication access, and Jordyn’s work with the Nora Project and Center for Enriched Living. Now let’s lighten things up a bit with a mystery question that takes us in a more personal direction. Wonderful. All right. Are you ready for the mystery question? I’ve got a couple. I have a couple questions on some cards. I’m gonna pick a random one and here we go. The question is, are you an under planner or overplanner? I guess so. Like if you—and can you see that? Are you an under planner or overplanner? It’s not exactly getting it in focus there probably because my fingers are there. But, so the question is, are you an overplanner or under planner? Do you want me to go first?

Jordyn Zimmerman Sure.

Tim Villegas Okay. So this is a tough question because I think it depends on your perspective. So my wife is an excellent planner. So if we go on road trips or if we are doing some sort of big event like a birthday party, she is a really huge planner. She plans everything out. Everything is like, you know, she knows exactly where everything is and what’s gonna happen and when it’s gonna happen. And I really like that and I appreciate that. And so if I’m doing an event, let’s say for work, I like to plan, I am a planner, right? But I’m not—I wouldn’t call myself an overplanner because I like to plan things out, but I also like to have spontaneity and not know exactly what’s gonna happen. So I like to leave room for things to naturally occur. So I’m probably more of an under planner than an overplanner. So that’s my answer. So what about you?

Jordyn Zimmerman This is a tough question from a middle schooler. Okay. I’d say it tends to depend on the situation. I’m definitely not such an over-planner where my clothes are picked out for two weeks ahead, but in the day to day, I like to have things prepared and ready. On the flip side though, I also like to leave room for some spontaneity.

Tim Villegas Yeah, I know my daughter asks good questions. Jordyn Zimmerman, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast. This was a lot of fun.

Jordyn Zimmerman Thanks, Tim.

Tim Villegas That was Jordyn Zimmerman. Here’s what I’m taking with me. Inclusion starts with presuming competence, not just in theory, but in practice. Jordyn reminded us that we have nothing to lose and everything to gain when we give every learner access to communication and community. Her story is a powerful call to rethink how we measure success in schools, not just by placement numbers, but by learning, belonging, and even happiness. One practical step for educators: make space for every voice. That means ensuring students with speech disabilities have access to their chosen AAC tools at all times. No prerequisites, no exceptions. And just as importantly, it means listening with patience and intention.

Share this episode with a colleague who’s building inclusive schools. Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and follow Think Inclusive wherever you get your podcasts. Shout out to the parent from New York City that I spoke with this week about how she is loving this season of Think Inclusive. She said she appreciated how we touch on various aspects of inclusivity, not just K-12 schools, and that she’d love to hear more from parents who made the decision to take their children out of public schools that weren’t serving them well. And I just want to be super clear here. We want every school to be a place where every learner belongs, but we understand that many, if not most schools, are not there yet. So if a family makes a decision for their child to be placed in a specialized school or classroom, look, we completely understand and we are not here to judge that decision. We are here to support educators, schools, and districts on their journey towards full and authentic inclusive practices and I am so glad that you, our listeners, are here with us week after week. If you have something to share, you can always email me at tvillegas@mcie.org.

Okay, let’s roll the credits. Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I write, edit, mix, master—I basically wear all the podcast hats and baseball caps. This show is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, scheduling and extra production help from Jill Wagoner. Our original music is by Miles Kredich with extra vibes from Melod.ie. Big thanks to our sponsor, IXL. Visit IXL.com/inclusive.

What is my fun fact? Fun fact. Fun fact. Fun fact, fun fact. Oh, I know. Here’s a fun fact. We’re about 30 days away from our Think Inclusive livestream birthday party, which will be on December 2nd, 2025, Giving Tuesday. You can find the link in the show notes to secure your spot for the event. Any donation of $13 or more—there’s some additional tiers for you to check out. We want everyone that has been impacted by Think Inclusive, by the podcast, to come. It’s gonna be a celebration and we have wonderful guests. Keith Jones will be there—his spicy self. We love Keith. Jenna Rufo. We have Mark Crenshaw, and we have Diana Pastora Carson, all fantastic people. It’s gonna be a great time, so please check that out in the show notes. The Think Inclusive 13th birthday party livestream. If you have any questions about the livestream, you can always email me at tvillegas@mcie.org. I read every single message, and if you’ve made it this far, you’re officially part of the Think Inclusive Inclusion Crew.

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Thanks for hanging out and remember, inclusion always works.