Exploring Play’s Role in Inclusion and Personal Growth 

Tim Villegas: This is Think Inclusive. I’m Tim Villegas. Wow—we’re nearly finished with Season 12 of Think Inclusive, MCIE’s podcast that brings you conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. It’s wild to think I’ve been doing this podcast for… let’s see, 13 years. 

It’s a privilege. So I just want to say thank you to everyone who tunes in week after week. I really, really appreciate it. 

We have a fantastic show for you today with two wonderful guests: Dr. Leah Kelley and Dr. Kari Gustafson. 

Dr. Leah Kelley is a neurodivergent education consultant, author, activist, educator, and parent. She currently works with families, community organizations, school districts, and university classes. After 25 years as a public school teacher—including roles as a primary teacher, inclusion resource teacher, and SEL mental health helping teacher—Leah now presents nationally and internationally on neurodiversity, advocacy, and inclusion. She also authors the popular blog 30 Days of Autism. 

She’s a sought-after speaker, known for her storytelling, practical wisdom, and relational approach—qualities reflected in her book The Person Who Arrives: Connecting Disability Studies to Educational Practice for teachers, parents, and others. It’s a wonderful book. I can see it right now—it’s on my shelf. 

Dr. Kari Gustafson is an instructor, researcher, roleplaying gamer, and parent working at the intersection of neurodiversity, disability studies, education, and roleplaying games. Kari holds a PhD in Philosophy of Education from Simon Fraser University, where their dissertation focused on D&D, relationality, and inclusion—exploring how we might welcome students for their strengths and collaborate effectively. Kari is a faculty member in the Disability and Community Studies program at Douglas College. 

In today’s episode, Leah, Kari, and I talk about play. We meander a bit around the idea of play—how it relates to disability, and really, to life in general. It’s a fascinating discussion, and I think you’re going to love it. 

If you enjoy rambling, meandering conversations, this episode is for you. 

Before we dive in, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this season: IXL. IXL is a fantastic all-in-one platform designed for K–12 education. It boosts student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress seamlessly. Imagine having a tool that replaces dozens of different resources—well, that’s IXL. It adapts to each student’s needs, ensuring they’re both supported and challenged, and provides personalized learning plans to close knowledge gaps. 

Interested in learning more? Visit https://ixl.com/inclusive. 

All right—after a short break, we’ll get into my conversation with Dr. Leah Kelley and Dr. Kari Gustafson. Catch you on the other side. 

Tim Villegas: Is everyone drinking something? Tea, water, coffee? 

Kari Gustafson: I’m actually on water, which is very unlike me. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. Leah, what are you drinking? 

Leah Kelley: I already had a giant glass of water. Now I’m drinking coffee as my reward. 

Tim Villegas: Ah, okay. I’ve also had my water, so now I’m drinking Yorkshire Gold tea. 

Kari Gustafson: My empty coffee cup is here—this is the second cup of that size I’ve had today. So I decided water was the way to go. 

Leah Kelley: I have to hydrate because I’m racing tomorrow. 

Tim Villegas: You’re racing? Outrigger racing? 

Leah Kelley: Yeah, I do dragon boat and outrigger races. 

Tim Villegas: What’s a dragon boat? 

Leah Kelley: It’s a big boat that seats people two to a side. There are huge races with about 22 people, including the steersperson and caller. Everyone has to paddle in sync or you’ll whack paddles. There are races all over the world. 

Tim Villegas: I’ve never heard of that. 

Leah Kelley: Outrigger races use a very narrow canoe—OC6—that seats six people. There’s a float on the side called an ‘ama’ to help with stability. Remember the opening credits of Hawaii Five-O? That’s an outrigger. 

Tim Villegas: Oh, okay. Got it. Interesting. Kari, do you do this too? 

Kari Gustafson: No, I’ve tried it once and it was amazing. I plan to start, but not yet—waiting for better weather. You have to be committed to do it in this weather. 

Tim Villegas: I have this slight fear—maybe not fear, but I’m terrified of kayaks. There’s this story my wife likes to tell. We went camping and rented a kayak. It was my turn, and I was already unsure. I went down to the boat ramp, got in, and immediately flipped over. I couldn’t stay upright. I was so mad I started saying some very naughty words. I looked up and saw a family—parents and kids—just staring at me. The parents were covering the kids’ ears. I was like, “Forget it. I’m done.” Never again. 

Kari Gustafson: You should try it with a guide. If you get in wrong, they’re super slippery and just flip. You need to get a feel for it. 

Tim Villegas: All of that sounds wonderful, but it’s raising my anxiety just a little. Still, I’m excited to hear you’re racing tomorrow. 

Leah Kelley: I’m not that excited—it’s going to be cold. But I’m proud of myself. It’s probably the only thing in my life that makes me feel like a bit of a badass. 

Tim Villegas: I’m sure there are other things. 

Leah Kelley: No, this really makes me go, “Wow, look what you just did.” We did a 29K race in Hawaii in September. 

Tim Villegas: On the open ocean? Wow. That’s amazing. 

Leah Kelley: Or ridiculous. 

Tim Villegas: Or ridiculous. Well, Kari Gustafson and Leah Kelley, welcome to the Think Inclusive podcast. 

Kari Gustafson: Thank you so much. 

Leah Kelley: Thank you for having us. We’re big fans of yours. 

Kari Gustafson: Yes! 

Tim Villegas: Thanks, I really appreciate that. This is a privilege—it’s like my dream job. Kari, Leah, we know each other. I don’t always throw a curveball at the beginning of an interview, but since I know both of you, I thought we’d start with a little thought experiment. 

You saw the questions, right? 

Leah Kelley: Yes. I vote you go first. Catch your own curveball. 

Tim Villegas: Okay, good modeling. So here’s the idea: imagine two timelines—one best-case scenario for the next six months, and one worst-case scenario. I want us to play around with how we view our reality and project what the best and worst might look like. Want me to go first? 

Leah Kelley: Yes, please. 

Tim Villegas: Okay. Worst-case scenario: I live in the U.S. and work in communications for a nonprofit focused on inclusion and equity. My worst-case scenario is that the current administration continues to root out what they call “radical indoctrination” in public schools and federal programs. We might see suppression of the work we’ve been doing for decades. The Department of Education could be gutted or removed. States might get funding with no strings attached and choose not to support learners with disabilities. People might become afraid to speak up about inclusion and equity. 

Best-case scenario: People like us won’t stay silent. We’ll speak up and continue advocating for inclusion and equity. We’ll keep telling the stories of people with disabilities and promoting inclusive education. We’ll slow down the onslaught against diversity, equity, and inclusion. We’ll keep doing our work with support and without too much damage being done. 

Kari Gustafson: From my perspective in Canada—though I’m originally American—I’ve noticed that some groups here feel inspired by developments in the U.S., and not always in a good way. Worst-case scenario: those illiberal, anti-inclusion movements grow in Canada too. I’m scared for people in the U.S. and the damage this could do to society, especially to those being excluded. 

Best-case scenario: People continue to speak up and work toward inclusion. But I’m also troubled by how polarized things are. We won’t see meaningful progress until that polarization lessens. I hope people reflect on what they’re actually promoting when they oppose DEI. Historically, most people support inclusive societies and human rights. I want us to remember that and work together. 

Leah Kelley: Honestly, at this time, I’m not even sure how to address it. And to clarify, as Kari said, we’re both in Canada—but that doesn’t mean we’re unconcerned about the trends, attacks, and oppression happening elsewhere. These are real threats to things that have taken decades to build. 

I see people I’ve worked alongside—people who’ve done this work for years—feeling demoralized. And I find myself wondering about the things I read. I try to be careful, because some of it feels like it’s designed to demoralize us. And the truth is, we don’t fight a battle we think we’ve already lost. 

And when I say “we,” I mean it. I’m deeply connected to friends in the United States. 

 Other people’s worlds are affected by these kinds of ideas, thoughts, and values—or the lack thereof. So I think the worst-case scenario is that we do nothing. Even if it’s a small thing, we can do something at the local level. 

Right now, I’m really committed to a local issue. A really anti-inclusion, anti-acceptance person on our school board ran for provincial office—and won. Now there’s a vacancy on the school board, and I’m working locally to help elect someone who’s a strong advocate and trustee, especially in terms of disability and how these changes intersect with other identities and experiences of oppression. 

And then, best-case scenario—this links into our podcast and our discussion about play. It might seem frivolous in contrast to such a terrifying slide to the right, the shifting Overton window, and the trauma and oppression people are experiencing. But talking about play might be more important than ever. 

We need to ask: What do we value? What can we create? What can we do—whether it’s at the local level or through other means—to support these things? 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. Thank you for that. I just felt like I needed to talk about it with people. Even though this won’t be published for a while, it’s something that’s constantly on my mind. I don’t know if that exercise was beneficial or not—it was for me. So thank you. 

Kari Gustafson: I think it was. Thanks especially for reminding us to think about the best-case scenario. It’s easy to focus on the worst-case scenarios that seem to be coming to fruition. But we need to remember there are ways to work toward other, better outcomes. 

Tim Villegas: All right, let’s move on to talking about the podcast project. Who wants to go first and share how this came to be? 

Leah Kelley: Sure! Tim, you put out a poll asking who wanted to do a narrative podcast, and I was like, “Me! Me!” Then I thought, it’d be way more fun to do this with someone else. You were super generous and said you’d produce it and handle all the behind-the-scenes stuff. I was all in—I love storytelling, I love talking about disability, and I love podcasts. 

Then I asked Kari if we could do it together, and you said, “Bring it on!” So the three of us started talking and realized this could be amazing. We started learning more about narrative podcasts—what they are, how to do them, and how to build a story. We’re still in the early stages, but we’ve done some great interviews and decided on a theme for our first season. We’re even thinking about multiple seasons! I’m excited. That’s how it came about. Kari? 

Kari Gustafson: Yeah! I’m kind of obsessed with podcasting. I listen to an embarrassing number of them. I also hosted the grad student podcast Ideas at SFU for a while, so I’ve played around with it—apropos of play! 

I think both of you are doing amazing work, and disability is my favorite topic in the world. So this project combines all my favorite things—how could I say no? 

We’ve done some interviews, and themes are emerging. The theme of play definitely came out of our own playing with ideas as we got started. It’s made me think more deeply about play—even though I already think about it a lot. It’s sparked new ideas and new ways of thinking. 

Leah Kelley: We’re talking a lot about play now—what it is. This process is emergent, explorative, creative. It’s got our imaginations going. We’re doing wordplay, playing with ideas, toying around. I love the idea of playfulness—what does it mean to toy with something? 

We’re also thinking about who this is for, why we’re doing it, and the big questions behind it. Kari and I have no problem coming up with intersections and things to talk about. The challenge is we have too many things in common! 

Kari Gustafson: We really do. And I think we also have a lot of life experiences in common. From my perspective, the reason this is an interesting idea—especially for our first season—is that as a parent of a neurodivergent child, I’ve experienced how play isn’t always seen as important. 

Parents are often pressured to substitute playtime with therapy time. Play becomes less of a priority. “Good parenting” is seen as limiting play in favor of something more structured or “important.” That’s problematic. 

Leah Kelley: I think parents and educators feel that across the board. Play is often seen as something you earn after doing the “real” work. But when you add disability into the mix—my son is an adult now and is multiply neurodivergent and otherwise disabled, and I identify similarly—there’s a danger that play gets replaced by adult-led activities. 

People say, “Oh, they’re having fun,” but if it’s adult-led, it’s not play. If it’s goal-focused, it’s not play. Kids can have goals—like capturing a flag or finding treasure—but it’s their goal. It’s not imposed by an adult. 

There’s a danger in conflating “having a good time” with actual play. And when disability is framed as something to be fixed or cured, that can rob kids of time to play. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. I’ve been thinking about this in my own life—finding joy and being intentional about it. At first, it felt like I wasn’t supposed to focus on that. But the more I invest in joy, the happier I am, and the more I can do everything else. 

I love what you said, Leah, about play not being adult-focused. When adults dictate what’s supposed to happen, it’s not the same. It’s about self-acceptance. Could it really be that simple? The more you accept yourself, the happier and more fulfilled you are? 

Leah Kelley: Maybe it gives us more resources to do the hard work we need to do. Maybe it’s restorative for us as adults—and maybe that positions us to protect children’s right to play. 

Kari Gustafson: But it goes beyond that. That’s part of what we’re exploring in the podcast. Play isn’t just about relaxation and joy—it’s also about exploration and transformation. It’s not always easy or pleasurable. 

Roleplaying games, for example, are used for intense and important learning. People use them to explore Palestinian resistance, state-building, conflict resolution. They’re used in disaster preparedness scenarios. 

What’s important is that play happens in a space where things aren’t decided—you can go in different directions. It’s still play, but it has depth. 

Tim Villegas: That’s really interesting. For complex situations, play can be like a sandbox—where the stakes are lower, but the learning is real. If everyone’s invested, it can be transformative. 

Leah Kelley: That’s true for children too. They play through difficult situations and conflicts. They try on different roles and experiences in a safe way. They work through things they’ve seen or experienced. 

They learn to resolve conflicts without an adult stepping in. They figure out how to maintain relationships. It’s beyond just joy—it’s about navigating the world. 

Kari Gustafson: And even those intense developmental aspects of play produce joy and energy. You come away from those experiences transformed. 

Tim Villegas: Do you ever do escape rooms? 

Leah Kelley: I have. Some of them are really ableist, though. 

Tim Villegas: Oh, interesting. Tell me more. 

Leah Kelley: I’ve seen “escape the asylum” themes, which are problematic. I think I did one once, but I didn’t enjoy the time pressure. 

Tim Villegas: I’ve only done a couple. Over the holidays, we used a Groupon and went with a group of eight. The theme was that we were spies breaking into a villain’s art gallery to steal something before his goons got us. 

I didn’t expect to like it, but it was so cooperative. I contributed my little part—like pointing something in the right direction—and someone else figured out a code. It was really fun. I’m looking forward to doing another one. 

But I definitely see how some themes could be problematic. 

Leah Kelley: You should join us! Kari, we should start a D&D group and play virtually. Tim, you might like that. 

Kari Gustafson: For sure! An invite might be coming your way. It’s deeply collaborative—that’s what makes it so fun. 

Leah Kelley: We could even use it as part of our podcast—pull some audio from a session. 

Tim Villegas: We’re burning through our time here, but I want to ask: You’ve done some interviews and thought through the storytelling. Are there any stories that really exemplify the intersection of disability, creativity, joy, and play? 

Kari Gustafson: It’s not from one of the interviews, but my scholarship interest comes from a story about play. My kids were in a live-action roleplaying (LARP) group in Denmark—just a bunch of 8- to 13-year-olds running around the forest with foam swords on Sunday afternoons. It was awesome. 

I got to dress up as a monster sometimes, which was fun. But what struck me was how many of the kids were neurodivergent or had mental health or social challenges. These were kids who had been excluded in other contexts—but not here. 

They were all different and diverse, but they played together. No one was excluded. I don’t think I ever saw anyone crying, even though they were hitting each other with foam swords. 

I wondered: What is happening here that’s so hard to replicate in a classroom or sports team? That’s when I got interested in play and game structures that support inclusion. 

Tim Villegas: You said you did research on this? 

Kari Gustafson: Yes! That’s when I applied for PhD programs. I studied roleplaying games—played a lot of D&D and other tabletop games—and explored what makes these spaces inclusive. 

Tim Villegas: Are there one or two takeaways from your research? 

Kari Gustafson: Yes, there are. 

Leah Kelley: (emphatically pointing) Yes! 

Kari Gustafson: So, they’re called roleplaying games, but they’re really more like collaborative storytelling practices. Everyone plays a different character, and there’s a game master who acts as the lead storyteller. The mechanics are designed so that it only really works if there’s a variety of character types. 

I started a game for some middle schoolers, and the first thing everyone wants to do—especially at that age—is create the most overpowered character. Everyone wants to be the fighter or the hero, because we’re used to thinking in terms of action heroes. But the game requires collaboration. You need all the different types of characters to succeed. It’s a kind of forced inclusive space, and it becomes obvious that difference is a strength. 

Also, the dice determine whether your actions succeed or fail. Even the strongest character can roll a one and fail, while someone else might roll high and succeed. It reinforces the idea that success and failure aren’t just about individual ability—they’re influenced by the world and circumstances. And every failure is just an opportunity to try again in a different way. 

Tim Villegas: Everything you’re saying is just so beautiful. Amazing. 

Leah Kelley: It really is. I’m a giant fan of Kari—and of roleplaying games. But mostly of Kari. The idea that roleplaying games create inclusivity by valuing each participant’s strengths is so powerful. Everyone has value and can contribute. That’s a beautiful model for inclusion in classrooms—valuing everyone’s strengths in our schools, homes, and communities. 

Kari Gustafson: That’s great. I get off track with my own stuff, but Leah can summarize it perfectly. 

Tim Villegas: That’s why you make a good team. 

Leah Kelley: We can summarize for each other. I’ll make you a tiny version of me in an Altoids tin with a script of what your work is about. You can do the same. A little frizzy-haired person in a tin—open it up and there’s your elevator pitch. 

Tim Villegas: Oh my goodness. 

Leah Kelley: What were we talking about? Oh right—stories. Maybe my story is that idea: Leah in an Altoids tin. Seriously though, I love to play. I love being ridiculous, wordplay, paddling—it’s all play. I love trying things I’m not good at. I’m involved with the Society for Creative Anachronism, sewing medieval garb. When I started paddling, I was terrible. I think they kept me because I was coachable and enthusiastic. My range of motion was so bad I could barely check my blind spot. Now I’m like an owl. 

I’m an activist at heart. I believe in leveraging privilege to make the world better. And I’m sustained by being a goof—being playful, telling stories, making people laugh. I want to live the life I thought adulthood would be when I was a child. 

Tim Villegas: That’s good. That’s really good. 

Leah Kelley: As a child, I thought the world would be at peace by now. I’m going through life with a checklist: Would I be in the medieval society? Check. Every sentence started with “Let’s pretend.” We were in the woods all day. Kari and I have talked about what play was like when we were kids—we were outside all the time. 

Kari Gustafson: We talked about how over-programmed kids are now. What they probably need is free time outside to play. 

Leah Kelley: And with disabilities, there’s even more programming—therapy on top of everything else. I wrote about that in my book. The pressure on parents of disabled children conflates love with therapy. That robs children of time to build relationships and just have fun—to be themselves and find pride in who they are. 

Tim Villegas: Like the mouse who saves the group by slipping through the log. 

Kari Gustafson: Exactly. School and therapy often focus on what kids are bad at. The more time spent on that, the less time they have for what they’re good at or enjoy. 

Leah Kelley: That’s different from choosing to learn something you’re not good at. I’m sewing garb—I’m not good at it, but I enjoy the challenge. 

Kari Gustafson: There’s a difference between doing something for fun and doing it because you’re expected to reach a goal. You can enjoy being bad at something, but it’s different when you’re being judged. 

Tim Villegas: That’s why Universal Design for Learning is so powerful. It gives learners autonomy. When students have ownership, they’re more engaged and motivated. But if you’re told, “You’re not good at math, so now you have to do extra math,” it’s demoralizing. 

Leah Kelley: And how much time do we lose in the present because we’re focused on the future? Teachers say, “Next year you’ll need this.” Or we look at a 2-year-old and worry about what they’ll be like at 5. With disability, we project a child’s current state into adulthood, which is ridiculous. People grow and develop. 

Tim Villegas: Yeah. We’re close to time. We could talk longer, but I have things to do. 

Leah Kelley: He’s got a play date! 

Tim Villegas: That’s right. Let’s wrap up. Normally I ask for takeaways for educators, but this whole conversation has been full of them. I’ll summarize in the outro. But first, our mystery question! 

Leah Kelley: This is play! 

Tim Villegas: It is! I’m almost out of mystery questions. I’m recruiting my 12-year-old to write more. 

Leah Kelley: Awesome. 

Tim Villegas: Here we go. The question is: What upcoming life event are you excited about? 

I’ll go first. My oldest daughter is in college, about two hours away. We’re going to visit her next weekend—it’s the first time we’ve gone down there since dropping her off. I’m really excited about that. 

Leah Kelley: Nice! 

Tim Villegas: What about you? 

Kari Gustafson: I’ve had a lot of big changes recently—moving, birthdays. So my life event is not doing anything big for a while. But I’m looking forward to celebrating all the changes with friends in our yard when the weather’s better. 

Tim Villegas: That’s great. Happy birthday! 

Leah Kelley: I’m looking forward to attending that—assuming I’m invited. Tim, you might not want to make the trip! 

Tim Villegas: It might be a bit far. 

Leah Kelley: My big life event is a book talk at our local library. I got a grant and I’m doing a talk and signing. I’m also excited about this podcast. Working title: The Pebble in the Shoe Podcast: Season One—Let’s Play. 

Tim Villegas: You said that so confidently—I’m in! 

Leah Kelley: I was channeling my son’s toy that said “Let’s play!” when you turned it on. 

Kari Gustafson: We need to find that toy and use the sound in the podcast. 

Tim Villegas: Yes! Record it! 

Leah Kelley: You don’t have a goat on your podcast, but now you have me doing sound effects. 

Tim Villegas: That’s really good. There was a game called Goat Simulator. Did you ever play that? 

Kari Gustafson: My kids did. I couldn’t watch—it made me feel weird. The animation was disturbing. 

Tim Villegas: It was not great, but they loved it. 

Leah Kelley: Big takeaway, listeners: Keep your ears open for The Pebble in the Shoe. 

Tim Villegas: Let’s do it. It’s going to be awesome. 

Leah Kelley: It is! 

Tim Villegas: Kari Gustafson and Leah Kelley, thank you so much for being on the podcast. 

Leah Kelley: Thank you for having us. 

Kari Gustafson: Thank you so much. It’s always a treat to talk with you. 

Tim Villegas: That’s all the time we have for this episode of Think Inclusive. Now, let’s roll the credits. 

Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I handle the writing, editing, design, mixing, and mastering. This podcast is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. 

Our original music is by Miles Kredich, with additional tunes by Melod.ie. A big shout-out to our sponsor, IXL. Check them out at https://ixl.com/inclusive. We truly appreciate each and every one of you who tunes in. 

One way to help us grow the show is by sharing an episode you like with someone you know—a colleague, friend, family member, your child’s school principal, or even the cashier at the coffee shop. Tell people about Think Inclusive and the show will grow. 

Another great way to help is by leaving a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Write something in the Apple Podcasts app—it really helps. 

You can always email me at tvillegas@mcie.org. We respond to listener feedback. 

Thanks for your time and attention—and remember, inclusion always works. 

Download the entire unedited transcript here. 

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