Inclusionists Discuss Strategies and Stories in Education Panel

Tim Villegas: If I say the word “inclusionist,” what image comes to mind? For many people, that word is paired with the term “rabid inclusionist.” This tends to imply someone inflexible in their thinking, overtly harsh in their critique of how districts deliver special education services, or someone who uses shame to urge people to change their behavior. I’d like to propose a different interpretation of the word “inclusionist”—someone reflective, thoughtful, knowledgeable, creative, and a good storyteller who will nudge people in the right direction to change practices over time with conversations. And that is precisely what we will do with today’s episode. My name is Tim Villegas, and this is Thinking Inclusive. We’ve been off for the summer, sharing some feed drops with some of our podcast besties. So definitely check them out in your feed. This week, I’m sharing a live recording of Thinking Inclusive during MCIE’s Summer Institute 2024 in Annapolis, Maryland.

Panelists: Margo Gross, Lisa Quinn, Jennifer Ayers, and Jennifer Sommerness—all self-proclaimed inclusionists—discuss what it means to be an inclusionist, sharing personal stories of pushing for inclusive education and overcoming challenges. This episode will be super beneficial for you to gain insights into strategies for fostering inclusion, the importance of listening and collaboration, and maintaining motivation even when there are setbacks.

Tim Villegas: Welcome to the Think Inclusive podcast. My name is Tim Villegas, the Director of Communications for the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. And I have four wonderful panelists here in the beautiful ballroom of the Crown Plaza, Annapolis. Margo, will you start us off and just introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you’re from, and what your role is?

Margo Gross: I am Margo Gross, and I am the Supervisor of Equity for Calvert County Public Schools.

Lisa Quinn: I am Lisa Mihalik Quinn. I am a former special education teacher in public schools, and I am the owner and executive director of Reach Every Voice.

Jen Ayers: I’m Jennifer Ayers. I’m an instructional coordinator for special education with Cecil County Public Schools.

Jen Sommerness: Hi, I’m Jen Sommerness. I am a researcher at the TIE Center at the University of Minnesota.

Tim Villegas: All right. So the name of this panel is “A Conversation with Inclusionists,” but what do we mean by that term? What do we mean when we talk about what is an inclusionist? So let’s start off. Anyone can go, you’re going to have to fight for the mic, but how would you define the term inclusionist or what does the word inclusionist mean to you? Who would like to go first, Margo?

Margo Gross: When I think of what an inclusionist is, I think of someone who can identify barriers, who is courageous enough to advocate for the removal of those barriers for students, and who also advocates for inclusion in atmospheres where it’s not happening. So, like an inclusion buster.

Tim Villegas: I like that.

Lisa Quinn: I can add on to that. I think it’s also somebody who sees the barriers, sees the hard things, and is not afraid to have the hard conversations about them. Too often, I think we have our ideas—I’m an inclusionist, this is what I think—and I don’t stop to listen to others or to have the conversations about how we are going to dismantle the barriers. What is that going to look like?

Tim Villegas: Yeah, I like the listening part too, right? Because sometimes when we hear the word inclusionist, we get the sense that you are this rabid inclusionist, right? That you are always on the offensive or the attack. But really, we’re talking about listening. So thank you.

Jen Ayers: One of the things I talked about a little bit today too is not just the schoolhouse, right? So thinking of how can we impact our communities, where families are, where children are, all over the place, and really empowering those people so families feel included and become inclusionists themselves.

Tim Villegas: Right. Exactly, Jen.

Jen Sommerness: I was going to say the listening part, but I think that that’s one of the biggest pieces. And I think like when you said the rabid inclusionist, I think I used to be—I’m a recovering rabid inclusionist—because I think that I intentionally listen more so that I can meet whoever it is that I’m talking to with stories that align with that or help them see it. And it’s almost like you have to either see it to believe it or believe it to see it. And depending on who you’re talking to, you have to enter in and help them either see it or believe it to see it. So I kind of listen a lot these days.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, I like that. We’re not just one way, right? And that we can grow. As a follow-up, I’m wondering how you became an inclusionist, right? So for me, I started this work as not somebody who believed inclusion would work. If you know any part of my story, I’m a former segregated special education classroom teacher. In my early teacher education program, I actually got into arguments with my professor because they wanted me to build an inclusion plan for my students on the autism spectrum. And I was like, that ain’t gonna work, y’all. Like, they need something special. Don’t you realize they need something special? And she’s like, well, first of all, this is an assignment, so you’re going to do it. And then once I saw it work for myself, that’s when I’m like, oh, there’s something to this. And then I started to learn more and more about that. So how about you? Where did the inclusionist—how did you grow into that as an identity?

Jen Ayers: For myself, I still wonder that sometimes too. I am the child of two educators, and so I’ve grown up in education. My mother worked with children who are struggling readers, and so I did a lot of work alongside her. So I think that’s where it started. Dr. Teaglen, who some of you, most of you are probably familiar with, worked in my school district. And she came to me when I was like a fourth-year special educator in a segregated setting and said she had this idea for me. I’d be great for it, right? To teach in one of the district’s first inclusive early childhood classrooms. And I just jumped right in and I haven’t looked back. So I guess that’s how I became this person.

Lisa Quinn: So when I was a kid in elementary school, like late 80s, early 90s, there were students in my school who were probably part of a pilot program for inclusion at the time. And I didn’t know that, right? Growing up as a child, you just know what you see around you. And what I saw around me was people with varying abilities, somebody who used one of the earlier communication devices, and for me, that was normalized. And then, you know, I had kind of a winding path to come into education, and when I started teaching, I thought I wanted to be in a self-contained classroom. I started realizing, well, that’s not what I grew up with, right? I didn’t grow up with this experience. I grew up with people being in my classes, in my community. And I think, you know, I’m also a recovering rabid inclusionist. My natural tendency is to want to burn things to the ground very quickly and impulsively. And I’ve had to learn over time that if I want actual change to happen, I’ve got to kind of adapt my strategies.

Margo Gross: I think for me it was twofold. It’s like one of those things that I feel like a seed was always planted, but I just needed somebody to tell me what it was called, right? And so, as a social justice advocate and always looking for ways to include all children, our district at the time was very much segregated. It was very normed for that to be the way it was. And you know something’s wrong with it, but you don’t, like at the time I didn’t necessarily know how to go about it. And it wasn’t until our district partnered with MCIE that the information started being dispersed. And at the time I was a vice principal and IEP chair. So, as the information started trickling down and we were talking about how to make better decisions for students, it was almost as if once that hook got in my mouth, I was able to make so many connections between that and the civil rights movement, that and students of color having access in the same fight that I had been fighting all my life. As a woman of color, I was able to see connections between that and what our students go through. And so for me, it sort of was an easy sell, if you will, because it fell naturally into my bent for social justice and for people to have access and opportunity like anyone else would.

Tim Villegas: Thank you, Margo.

Jen Sommerness: For me, it was a job that I had that I didn’t even know I was a paraprofessional at the time, but it was that. I was just working to make some money over the summer and I met these two young men who were four and included in preschool and happened to be autistic. I fell in love with them and their family and did stuff on weekends with them and respite. Ultimately, I had a divine intervention named Lou Brown tell me that this is the work that I should be doing and I argued with him. He said, “No, really, your grades aren’t good enough. You need to quit pre-med and you need to do this.” And so that literally was how I started. But I think that for me, it’s been mentors the whole way that have been people who have been inclusionists and have told their stories and learned these things. Jen York-Barr is like my sister. She thought about collaboration and reflective practice and teacher leadership, and that was just like, you add that to inclusive practices and social justice and the whole world just opens up. So I just keep learning, I think, is what I do.

Tim Villegas: Thank you for sharing your stories. And I think that for us that are listening, as a question to y’all, what is your story that you are going to bring back to whatever your context is? It may be something that you learned today or yesterday during this Institute, or it could be something that you’ve been learning for years. But we all have a story to tell, right? And that’s part of being an inclusionist, I think, is knowing your story and telling your story. A lot of times how we’re framing is that it’s the right thing to do, which it is, right? A morality to this idea. So in your perspective, why is pursuing inclusive education the right thing, Margo?

Margo Gross: Because it works. I think sometimes we can get caught up in, yes, law supports it, research supports it. But when done with support, it works best for students. And I think we can get away from that sometimes. And I also think when we approach it, as you said, sort of in asking the question, from the lens of, it’s the right thing to do. Sometimes the problem with that is then we think we’re the savior when we do it, right? So there’s this notion of, I did these students a favor. No, they didn’t. They belong there. You’re not doing someone a favor because you let them in. And so that whole notion is where I become the rabid inclusionist because, you know, the end of segregation, somebody was letting me in too. And so there’s this notion of let, but that points to the power, which we talked about in this morning’s keynote, right? That alludes to some level of power. And so I think when we begin to talk about how good it is for the student and how the outcomes are better, yes, there’s research supported. Yes, legally, we should be doing it right. All of those things. But it’s also, it works.

Lisa Quinn: Right. And you know, like when we do these things, when we increase our circles and like how wide they are, who’s in them, we learn so much more, we’re exposed to so many more things. We get to understand and see the brilliant diversity of everything in a natural space, right? And acknowledge that. So, yeah, absolutely.

Jen Sommerness: I had to pause when you said that, even though I had been thinking about this question beforehand. But in the moment, I love what you said, Margo. Well, and you too. That’s just to affirm. But to me, there’s a piece that just happened to me last week that was so affirming and so cool. It absolutely is social justice. Absolutely. It’s all these things. And we’re not giving them something. It’s something that they, yeah, it absolutely is the right thing. But my dream has ultimately been that people who have kids who don’t have IEPs are the ones that are fighting right alongside the parents of kids who do have IEPs to say this is the right thing. And it happened to me last week. I had, do tell, it happened to me last week. It was this amazing conversation with educators who are in a fully inclusive school and I’m not going to identify them. But they were speech pathologists and both of their kids go to the same school and they both independently of one another basically said, if I had to go somewhere else in the district, I would keep my kids. I would fight for my kids to be here because of how much their kids are getting from that. And I’m like, there it is! Like, I’ve been hoping for that. It can’t just be the parents of the kids who have disabilities that are fighting for it. We have to be the ones that are saying, this is just good instruction. The research shows it, not just for kids with disabilities, but this is good instruction. And when teachers work that way, kids get everything that we’re hoping for them. And so that, I think it’s coming. I’m very hopeful.

Tim Villegas: I like the hope. Yes, yes. Let’s spread that hope around.

Jen Ayers: I shouldn’t have gone last, but I know I’m just kidding. I always like to say, right, you shouldn’t have to earn the right to be in any classroom or to have high-quality instruction. And so, you know, it’s not just the right thing. It’s the thing that all people deserve. And I think you were speaking to parents of children. I also think children are also going to become the biggest advocates we see too. I know I see it in my children and just also spreading that so that they can take up this kind of philosophy and change what we do.

Tim Villegas: Any additional thoughts before I ask the next question?

Lisa Quinn: I really appreciated what you said about having to earn your place, right? And it’s the same thing as making our students prove they can be there, right? So often it’s our students who have to prove something to us, that they can communicate, they can read, they can behave, before we allow them into our spaces. And that’s, I think that’s a big thing that we all need to grapple with.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, definitely. Okay, so as former rabid inclusionists, all of us that are working through this, we have a lot of conversations with people, right? That we don’t necessarily share the same mindset. So I know in my role, in working in segregated environments, in school systems that routinely had disability-specific programs, segregated classrooms, I was always the one to be like, “Hey, have you thought about maybe a different way?” Or, you know, talking to people and trying to open up their minds. So what is your strategy when you’re talking with someone that you’re not on the same page with about inclusion?

Jen Ayers: I’m going to go first this time. I think Jen said it perfectly earlier, right? It’s really about listening, right? You also mentioned that thinking about where that person is because each person, it might be different. And maybe where are they coming from and what’s building that barrier for them. I also think making those connections with maybe a child or person that they know, because then you build that momentum as they see that success. And so supporting them to see it. And then they start to build that trust with you and just move forward.

Lisa Quinn: I had somebody recently who in the last year saw one of my posts about inclusion on social media and responded very swiftly that inclusion is dangerous, right? How dare I be proposing a proponent, like how can I support this thing when it is so dangerous for students? I mean, that caught me off guard, right? And so my immediate reaction was like, I gotta hit back. I gotta get you some statistics. I get you some information, right? Let’s talk about abuse and neglect and students who can’t communicate what’s going on in their classes. And of course, I got that information out there, but then I also had a conversation with this person offline. And it turned out that her child had been abused in an inclusive setting by a paraeducator. Man, that’s a hard thing, right? That’s a hard thing to talk about. It’s a hard thing to even go forward from. And I can understand a little bit more why she was so quickly backlashing against inclusion, but it led to a conversation that over the course of time built a bridge and now she comes to our programs, works with us. And I feel like we’re in a different place because it wasn’t just my initial impulse to light and throw a match into the situation.

Margo Gross: In addition to what all of these wonderful ladies have said, I would add that I tend to ask probing questions to get to why people, sometimes when you send someone down this why cycle, right, of, okay, you said that, then why did you say that? Well, why do you believe that? When it begins to get irrational, that’s when I know that they may not really have a leg to stand on when it comes to their argument. But let’s engage. And so I’m a person that likes that engagement. I thrive on the whole conversation and not to be offensive and not to argue, but really to get facts put on the table because so much of what you hear, whether it’s equity, inclusion, belonging, all of those terms now people have made it mean what they want it to mean. And sometimes it’s not rooted in real data, research, and things that support it. So sometimes even just starting with the same working definition, this is what I mean. What do you mean? Asking those questions and finding out where the thinking is specifically in my role. I think it’s important for me to be aware of what staff members are thinking. And if you’re not approachable, if you’re not the type of person that people can talk to, they won’t tell you what they’re thinking. I can design PD around what your thoughts are to help you grow in that area. But I think providing those resources is important, but also being able to speak to them when people bring up things because people no longer want to be fact-checked. They don’t want to know that maybe your way of thinking is not really real. It may be a very fictitious way of thinking. So I think sometimes being able to have those educational tools and ask probing questions can sometimes lead people down another road. I also think being able to make things personal. Sometimes when we’re talking about specific kids who have maybe harmed someone or personal stories, it’s very easy for people to be combative. But when we ask about your child, if it was your child, or if it was you, right? I think about we all walked in the door, nobody met us at the door and said, “Well, what’s your IQ before you came in?” Nobody said, “Well, let me see how, what your score was on Praxis to determine what table you get to sit in.” We didn’t have those things. And so when you begin to make those parallels for people, sometimes even if they don’t tell you in the moment, they’re thinking about it. And even if that’s the one thing that they take away, they’re toiling with the thought. As I left Seclusion World, right, because I definitely, it’s sad to say, but as a teacher, I definitely advocated for people to be put in what our county calls regional programs. When I made the switch, I remember having conversations with a particular inclusive education facilitator, who’s here, and I said, “People are going to be like, what happened to her? Like she was like, get them out of here.” What transitioned? And it was the ability to see that it wasn’t working. Taking the blinders off and being open, but it was through having a relationship with someone who didn’t shun me when I had the questions, who didn’t turn me away when my thoughts weren’t like their thoughts, but really took the time to hear me and kept sending me videos to watch and books to read. And I did the work. And before long I was like, how dare we do, and had to be pulled back a little bit, like, come on in now. But I think it’s a mixture of a lot of things you have to do, and as we will with students, it depends on who you’re talking to. You know, there are people who have their heels dug in, and they have no desire to move, and they’ll listen to you, and then go back and do. You know, so you have the passive-aggressive, you have the aggressive, you have those that really want to learn. So you kind of have to meet people where they are. I think listening is a tool. Extending the questions, making it personal, and providing resources.

Tim Villegas: Thank you. And this is a podcast, so you can talk as long as you want. All right, go ahead.

Jen Sommerness: Oh man, the fourth position is tough. So I’m going to say two things. Both came from mentors of mine. That in addition to all of this. One from Sharon Fragon, who is an awesome inclusionist in Illinois, and she would talk about cooperation versus collaboration, right? So cooperation is like playing cards and you’re putting your hands over a couple of them, right? And you’re cooperating, right? We’re okay here, but I’m going to go back and do what I want to do anyway. So the trick is to get collaboration where you’re removing your hands and everyone can see all your cards and now we’re working together here. So how do you get people to do that? And I think using frameworks, using seven norms of collaboration, or really leaning on those things that we know that help us collaborate with one another is one of the things. And then the other thing that’s related to bringing people in is a Lou Brownism that is, “It’s much easier to have people inside your tent peeing out than it is to have people outside your tent peeing in.” Do what you have in your tent. That’s it. You just get them in your tent. So that one down, everybody’s taking notes. So ultimately, and that works no matter who you’re talking to really, you can just keep it in your mind. How do you do that?

Tim Villegas: Lou Brown, rest in peace, Lou Brown. Oh my gosh. He was an interesting man. Yes.

Jen Sommerness: That’s what happens when I go forth, by the way.

Tim Villegas: You brought the goods, the golden nuggets right there. I’m getting to call out a friend of mine, Mark Crenshaw, who is at Georgia State University. He’s a good friend of mine. So Mark, you’re going to be listening to this. And so just know that we love you. I was in a meeting with him at Georgia State and he was talking about, and I don’t remember if this is his quote or he took it from someone else, but he said something about how systems change is really conversations over time. And I love that, right? Because the work we’re doing here and the work of MCIE is really about changing systems, right? But the practicality of what that actually means, if you boil it down, it’s about conversations. It’s about bringing people in, it’s about having relationships, and then yes, we change structures, right? And we change practices, but how do we actually do that? It’s with conversations. So thank you because you all touched on that. And I didn’t hear, and Margo, you specifically called it out. We aren’t shaming people in the change, right? And audience, when have you made a sustainable lasting change through shame? You may have changed your behavior in the short term, right? But long term, probably not. Awesome. This is fun. See, y’all, y’all doing great. All right. We’re right on time too. Okay. Story time. Do you have a story that shows that inclusive education really works?

Lisa Quinn: Just one? I mean, isn’t that why we’re here, right? Because we have so many. We have so many stories, hopefully, that show that it works, right? Absolutely, yeah. And now we’re all panicking to think of just one on the spot. I mean, you know, I can think of just a cohort of students I worked with who spent most of their time in segregated classrooms, not receiving access to general curriculum, not receiving the needed supports for anything. And then they were included with their peers. They were provided the supports they needed to be successful in those environments. And all of them now have graduated from high school with a diploma, are pursuing jobs or going to college. And that’s just one of hopefully hundreds of stories that we all in this room can tell.

Jen Sommerness: Don’t leave me to last. You know what happened last time? Mine, I think, relates back to my dream of kids who don’t have disabilities and stuff. And so, one of my children, and Carolyn and I were just talking about this, the kids who are included with each other, that’s the part that I think is the most exciting, how that’s showing up. It’s just a thing, like, why are we even talking about this? And so those types of stories. But my son, when he was my baby boy who just turned 21, hi, Matthew, he’s going to hate me, but when he was in third grade, he came home one day and he was so excited. He said, “Stephen, who happened to have an IEP and was upset on the playground.” My son came home and told me about what he had done in the moment. He just walked over and Stephen was on the swing and he was crying. My son just went over and held out his hand and didn’t say anything, but just held out his hand and Stephen put his hand on my son’s hand and it soothed him. My son came home and it’s not like in third grade, eight-ish years old, he was paying so much attention to what mom actually does for work. So I don’t think that was it. It wasn’t through coaching at this point. I think it was because he was just friends with this guy and he just knew him. And I said, “Well, what made you do that?” And he said, “I just held my hand out and he touched it and it just calmed him down. He just needed to be grounded, mom.” And I think that’s the cool part. I think inclusion works. There are all the stories that we have of the kids that have disabilities, but I think we also have the stories of kids without.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

Margo Gross: I’ll share. Mine is related to my daughter too. My daughter was a high school student at the time and was what they coined then a best buddy. It was a situation where she was assigned to a student who was nonverbal. At the time, my daughter didn’t understand the nuances. I haven’t trained her either. She was sitting in the cafeteria with her and there were several times where she said, “I would just talk to her. She didn’t say anything back, but I would just continue to have conversations.” She came home one day excited because she was like, “I feel like she understands what I’m saying because her facial expressions show that she’s laughing, even though she may not be able to show laughing the typical way.” This sort of became a project for her to just sit there and talk and say all kinds of things. She was like, “I don’t know how much she understands, but I’m going to just keep talking to her.” And I said, “Okay.” So, I think a year passed and the communication device that the student was given was able to show what she now was thinking. My daughter comes home and she’s like, “You’re not going to believe this.” And I’m like, “What?” She was like, “We caught up on years of information. She does think Tommy is cute. This whole time I knew she was looking at Tommy and she does not like the cafeteria cookies. She prefers the macaroni and cheese and she does like it.” And she’s telling me all of these things. I tried to ease in like, “Mommy’s work does some,” trying to get a little bit of kudos from her. And she was like, “Yeah, uh-huh. But about the student.” They became great friends. Hearing that story, I’m emotional, so it brings tears to my eyes because when this student was given access, they then were able to create a social relationship that is part of belonging, being included, and feeling like you’re a member of where you are in the school. It’s not just about being in a room or the place, but it’s really about the relationships and the communication that’s happening now. This whole time communication was happening and I just wonder how many times we’ve lost an opportunity or missed the moment because we didn’t support what a student needed to have these types of relationships that are essential to our livelihood and enjoying life and those kinds of things. That’s one example. If I was to point to our school system as a whole, we hear over and over again from parents with tears in their eyes that they never thought their student would make friends, be invited somewhere, or be able to do a skill. Then they find out after being included and surrounded by a language-rich environment, all of those things, that now, yes, they can develop and they can do. They’ve met us at IEP tables with tears in their eyes, right? But they shouldn’t have to beg for it. They shouldn’t have to argue for it. These students, these stories shouldn’t even be stories because they should be the norm. We should expect it. It should be what happens because it’s the right thing to do.

Tim Villegas: You can clap. There you go, Margo.

Jen Ayers: My story is a little bit about the ripples of each of us, right? And to make sure that we all remember that. I was in a school recently that I don’t normally go into. It’s not one of my supervising schools. But they reminded me of a student from years ago and asked if I had seen their parent gave public comment in support of our school system. This was a student that the family entered school thinking they didn’t belong in a public education system based on outside support. I was a rabid inclusionist and I supported the team, right? And we supported the child and the parents. She was able to return to schooling and achieve a higher-level job, which then resulted in larger impacts for her whole family, as well as obviously her child’s benefits from those inclusive practices. That was something I didn’t even know, right? So it’s those ripples, those things that were impacting people when we don’t even know. That was like five years ago. She just gave that public comment this year. I didn’t even know we had that impact on her. But just remember there’s always those impacts. We just don’t see them all the time.

Tim Villegas: Thank you for sharing those stories. And thank you for also naming that there are a bunch of different stories that we could tell, right? So many stories. Not all of them have happy endings either, I have to say. A lot of the stories that I have, and that I’ve told many times, are stories where I’ve personally seen inclusion work for a student in a particular instance, but then they go to middle school, right? Despite the growth that they experienced in elementary school, they get to middle school, it’s a new team, it’s a new administration, and it’s like it never happened. Those stories are so frustrating. Because if they just, you know, and it’s not like we don’t tell them right of what the student is capable of. But how as inclusionists do we keep going despite that? Because I feel maybe those stories of near misses are more plentiful, right? So how do we keep going and keep advocating and keep pushing our systems to move forward?

Margo Gross: I’m going to start so I don’t have to be last. I would say keeping students at the forefront. When I was a vice principal, I ended up having to go through some court thing. I don’t want to get all into that. With a particular parent, right? I remember going to my principal at the time and telling her how this had been three years of a battle for something that really didn’t even involve me, but I digress. It had been three years and it was really weighing on me. It was becoming very difficult for me to get up and feel the same oomph that I did in the morning to go about my day. She said, “Go inside of your favorite teacher’s classroom and sit down for a little while.” It brought me back. In that moment I realized why I was there. Because you can be so busy about the work of advocacy, or so busy about the work of meetings and changing policies and procedures, which are all necessary, right? That you forget that at the center there are students. These are people who are going to grow up and be our next advocates, our next leaders, our next vice principals, principals, and so forth. I would say sometimes it’s easy, especially in my work at central office when you’re in meeting after meeting, and a lot of meetings that could have been emails, you can lose sight of the real work and who it’s for, right? You can sit and go through routines so much that you lose sight. I think those are the times where you feel like, oh goodness, I’m sick of this. But if you keep students at the center, and whatever you have to do to do that, whether that’s go sit in a classroom, whether that’s to teach a lesson, because you’ve been out of the classroom for a while, to re-center you on the humans that are at stake when we don’t do the work we’re supposed to do. One is too many, right? One secluded student is too many. We often say, you know, when someone says, “Oh, only five percent aren’t we doing well?” Show me the five percent. You don’t want to make it point them out for me, right? When you keep students at the center, it helps you keep going. Because one is too many to lose because we decided to take a break that day. For me, it’s constantly being reminded of who I’m there to serve and why I’m serving them.

Jen Ayers: One of the things that keeps me going are just the people who I know. I work towards future leaders and people who are going to continue to grow the change. I’m a leader in title. There are some of my leaders in character over here, right? That keeps me going because we’re building those people who I know will continue the work. We’re building children. I know some of us have given some of our own children’s stories, but yes, my children are the same way. We are building those pieces and that keeps me going because I know they’ll just do even better and continue to grow the work.

Lisa Quinn: It’s hard to follow all these things, but sorry, I’m not going to be last this time. I do a lot of work with families and students where I already know before we get there, the answer is going to be no to a lot of things. That’s hard, right? It’s hard to even enter into that space when you know there is no flower-filled field at the end of this road. It is a brick wall. And we’re still showing up, right? We’re still doing that work and that gets to be crushing and defeating again and again. For me, in addition to all the things you’re saying, right? Centering yourself in the students and why we’re really here. It helps me to listen to things like your podcast, like your inclusion stories. I was telling Tim earlier, I have a vivid encoded memory of where I was when I was listening to one of his inclusion stories about a student whose family was just so desperate to get her in the door of her own neighborhood school where her siblings were that they were like, “We’re going to revoke all of her services so that she can just get in the door.” You’re giving up your legal protections for that. For me, it helps to know it might feel isolating in the moment. It might feel like I am the only one fighting this battle, but there are a lot of people out there doing the work. Even though my ripples feel very small, they’re combined with all the ripples of everybody in this room and across the nation who are inclusionists and who are believing in and doing this work.

Margo Gross: I just wanted to follow up on what she said because that was just so powerful. One of the things she helped me do too was actualize sometimes we’ll say, “Oh, it’s so hard for us inclusion fighters,” right? But many of us are included all the time. It’s not hard. It’s not as hard as it is for the kids, right? We sometimes think, “Gosh, this work of dealing with these adults and trying to get them to do the right thing, oh, it’s so hard.” But imagine being the kid that has to come to school or the learner, trying to use the right language, the learner that comes to school every day and has to battle with people constantly telling them what they’re not, where they can go, what they have access to, all of those things. So I think what she said about that ripple is so powerful because sometimes we can get lost in our own, how it makes us feel and forget that we’re adults. We get to opt out. We get to say, “I don’t want to work for the school system anymore. I’ll apply somewhere else.” We get to have those moments. “I don’t want to teach fifth grade. Let me see if I can transfer to sixth. I don’t like this school. I’ll go to another one.” We have so much power and control in that. We can take a sick day. Many of our students can’t do that. The ones that show up every day don’t look at me like I’m crazy. They always come to school. So there is a lot that’s in our power to do and handle. While for a lot of our students, they don’t have that, and they have to deal with being who they are in a place that does not necessarily include them. So thanks for sharing that.

Jen Sommerness: I had something in mind. And now it’s just, yeah, it’s beautiful. How do we keep going? That was the question? Just to re-center myself. I think, I mean, there are all these pieces, but I also, like, you have to find stuff that’s not this, I think, too. But that it all relates to this as well. And something that you said about, it’s not that hard, like, you know, when people say that. Like, if I’m at the grocery store, I love to cook. So going to the grocery store is one of my favorite things to do. My mom every day is like, “You’re going to the grocery store again?” And I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, I am. I really love it.” And I find, but if I’m at the grocery store and someone there is like, “Oh, well, you know, for whatever reason it comes up, like what I do.” And it’s like, “Oh, that must take a lot of patience.” I want to punch someone, you know? Because it’s like, no, it doesn’t. It just takes the things that we’ve been talking about. It takes knowing what you’re good at and sharing that with other people. It takes listening a lot to what other people are good at and where are we going. So it’s like, as soon as I try to take a little mind break from it, half the time someone will insert themselves and it goes back to that question of how do you bring people onto the page that might not be there. I don’t know that you can ever step away fully from it, and I don’t ever try to, but I also acknowledge that there are people who really get this work to the degree that we do in this room and to have those times to let some steam out one way or the other, whether that’s through conversation or finding some fun things to do with one another, or just acknowledging it. Because I feel like when your passion and your skills intersect and that’s the work that you do, you can’t not keep going. But how do you keep yourself healthy as you’re going, I think is probably how I think of it.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, I like that. The healthy balance so you don’t burn out.

Jen Sommerness: You could try. I think that’s the goal. I don’t know that I’m good at that, but that’s where I would like to think about it. Because there have been a lot of, to your point, where it goes poorly. You have to be there to help new teams, new systems, new things with even the kids who have been doing great stuff. It’s not just one and done. It’s a continuous process of retending and regardening.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, I like that, regardening. It’s like we’re right on time, which is amazing. What is one thing that you want everyone to walk away from this conversation of inclusionists?

Jen Ayers: I mean, just keep going, right? Keep doing it. The work is important. We’re in it together, right? There’s other people out there just like you all the time working to support children and families. So that’s kind of what I hope everyone takes out of this whole experience, out of the last two days.

Lisa Quinn: I think, even for myself, I want to remember that it’s okay not to know everything, right? It’s okay to say, “Gosh, I really don’t have the answer to this right now, but I want to learn. I want to see what I can do to help or to better understand this situation.” And then also going along with that, the ability to say, “I was wrong.” And not be shamed for that. Be somebody who is seen as actually being a stronger person for saying, “I did some things that were wrong, and now I’m going to change what I’m doing.”

Margo Gross: I did everything they said. Because asking for help is definitely big on that list. And having people you can vent to is high up. I often see pictures of movements from the past, whether it’s people fighting for different rights throughout the years. And I often ask myself, when I look at the picture, say, of Ruby Bridges headed up the steps, would I be Ruby? Would I be people saying yes or would I be the people saying no? I would submit to you that fighting for inclusion now puts you on the right side of history. So when the revolution is televised of how far we’ve come, what story do you want to give your grandkids about what side you were on? My legacy matters to me and what side of history I’m on. So that one day when there’s a picture of these people who fought for inclusion, I hope that I’m in the audience holding the right poster. Because no one wants to be the one that’s like in the museum, “That’s your grandmama saying that?” So I just want to be holding the right poster. And I hope you do too.

Jen Sommerness: Oh man, am I last again? Jeez, you’re not nice. You are nice. What do I want to leave with? Boy, that’s a really tricky question if anyone’s seen me up on the stage with a mic before. Just keep going. To your point, be on the right poster, that’s a really good one. It’s worth it. It is the right thing. It’s different work. It’s hard, but it’s different. It’s not undoable. Everything is figureoutable. We can do it. It’s different. You can feel it. My last parting words would probably be least dangerous assumption, I think, works for me. Just assuming competence and just figure it out. Over, under, around, or through. Thinking together. I think that’s all you need. The tools of teachers and educators and time. That’s what I’ve seen. That’s all you need.

Tim Villegas: Did you, we all went, okay, great. Okay, so now comes the part of the Think Inclusive podcast where it’s called the mystery question and I did not want to pass by the mystery question for this episode. So I gave you three questions and I am going to pick which one. So let’s go with an easy one. You roll up to Starbucks, okay? You’re about to get a drink. What are you ordering?

Margo Gross: So the cinnamon coffee cake gets me. I don’t chase it. It chases me. Just the smell of it alone. So that’s what I’m getting.

Lisa Quinn: I used to have a thing for this drink called a latte macchiato that they don’t make anymore. So now I just largely will get an iced coffee because I put a lot of investment into finding the right drink and then they took it away. So now it’s just like, oh, I’ll go with something easy.

Jen Sommerness: Thanks. No, no, it’s Starbucks. She gives it to me. I would just get a dark roast, but for sure I would be corrected in how I ordered it. So someone needs to come to Starbucks with me and do some community training because I always, you know, it’s like a medium. I want a medium. What is that? That’s a what? Okay, perfect. But the person checking me out every single time, a dark roast. Do you want cream with that? No. What size? Medium. You mean grande? Yes. So that’s me. It’s a medium dark roast.

Tim Villegas: I like the vulnerability. Thank you.

Jen Sommerness: Yeah.

Tim Villegas: Thank you.

Jen Ayers: So not only do we have the same name, but that’s also what I do at Starbucks. I know, right? And those who know me are probably not surprised. I used to be just the J on my Google account. I didn’t even put an image and there was just the J because, you know, just the dark roast. That’s it. Give me any size.

Tim Villegas: I typically, yeah, I’m not good with names either when I order, so I’m probably going to get this wrong. But I really like the cold brew with cream cold foam, something like that. The salted caramel is my favorite. It’s the cold brew with the really creamy cold foam on top, and it’s just like, yeah, something like that. I don’t know. If it’s not that, then it’s just regular coffee. You know, and I drink way too much coffee. I used to have a coffee pot in my classroom, which was a big problem. But now, it’s not, because I don’t have a classroom. Now I just make it at home. Which is also a problem, really. Okay, y’all give it up for our fantastic panelists.

And thank you for being a wonderful, wonderful audience for our first live recording of Think Inclusive. Go subscribe and listen on your favorite podcast player. Okay, y’all, thank you so much. Actually, let’s get a picture really quick.

Tim Villegas: Thanks for listening or watching Think Inclusive. Next week will be our very first episode of season 12. Here is what to expect: If you’ve ever listened to this podcast, you know that I’m a former special education teacher who taught in segregated classrooms for many, many years. During that time, my thoughts and beliefs have evolved in favor of fully inclusive schools and districts. What I often haven’t shared with you is what really happens in segregated settings and why they are not great for kids or teachers. So, that’s next time on Think Inclusive.

Think Inclusive is written by me, Tim Villegas, and is produced by the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. It is listened to and watched by you, our dear audience. Original music by Miles Kredich. Additional music from Melod.ie. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works.

Download the complete and unedited transcript here.