Inclusive Systems Change in Secondary Schools with Dr. Jennifer Spencer-Iiams ~ 1322

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
I think one of the myths of inclusion is that it’s a one size fits all, and that we’re just taking students out of segregated spaces and just putting them into the general ed class that you remember in your mind.

And what we’re really doing is we’re teaching differently. We’re anticipating variability across every classroom. When you expect that you plan for it differently, you collaborate and use the expertise of multiple educators in the space. And that teaming becomes so paramount because each educator brings expertise about the content, about accessibility, about disability, around language acquisition.

All those things matter. And kids learn so much from their peers. So when we keep peers separate or segregated and don’t allow them to learn how to connect with each other, I think we’re maybe over-inflating our importance as teachers and under recognizing all the learning that happens between peers.

Tim Villegas:
Hey friends. Welcome back to Think Inclusive, real conversations about building schools where every learner belongs.

I’m your host, Tim Villegas. Today’s episode is about what it actually takes to move a whole school system towards real and authentic inclusion, not just a one-time initiative, but a long-term shift in beliefs, routines, and how we teach. We zoom out to the district level, but keep it grounded in what educators see and feel every day.

Expectations, belonging, and the practical work of making classrooms work for more students. Our guest today is Dr. Jennifer Spencer-Iiams, an educational leader focused on leading collaboratively for transformational change. She’s the deputy superintendent for a medium-sized school district in Oregon and co-author of the book Leading for All: Creating Truly Inclusive and Excellent Schools.

We talk about what it means to have a default toward inclusion while still making individualized decisions, how to bring stakeholders along and what happens when you miss a key group, and why middle and high school can be a great place to do this work. When collaboration time and structures match the vision, we also dig into the fear of distraction and what students can teach adults about belonging and how to stay flexible without sliding back into separate programs.

And at the end, the mystery question gives us a glimpse into our younger selves. Before we meet our guest, I wanna tell you about our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by IXL. IXL is an all-in-one platform for K–12 that helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress in one place.

As students practice, IXL adapts to their individual needs so that every learner gets just-right support and challenge, and each student gets a personalized learning plan to close gaps. Check it out at ixl.com/inclusive. Again, that’s ixl.com/inclusive. All right. After a quick break, it’s time to think inclusive with Dr. Jennifer Spencer-Iiams. Catch you on the other side.

Welcome back to the podcast.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Well, thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here. I’m such a fan. I listen all the time and get so much inspiration from the other voices that I hear that are all dedicated to this thing called inclusion.

Tim Villegas:
Thank you so much. Thanks. And yeah, thanks for listening.

Thanks to everyone who listens and watches, because I still really can’t believe that I’ve been doing it for this long and that it’s my job. So it is wild. And to your point, there are so many people doing really great work, and I think that that has always given me a lot of hope.

I had this idea when I first started that, oh yeah, there’s people out there doing all this work and all this good stuff. But to be able to talk to people week after week and to share their stories, that has been really amazing. And you are one of those people.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Well, it’s such a pleasure, and I feel that same way.

I think I sent you an email after I listened to your long-form series. I was so inspired. And just getting to hear others in that journey is so affirming and inspiring. Sometimes I just wanna get everyone together in one room and hug each other and support each other. Let’s keep doing this work.

Tim Villegas:
I know. Yeah. And I feel like our stories just aren’t flashy enough or viral enough, because if you could get a million people into one room and hear the stuff that we hear, don’t you think that would really change people?

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
I do. Because once you dive into this work, there’s really no going back. And I think many of the things that hold people back from going there are fear of change, fear that it’s going to be hard, fear that they’re maybe not going to meet everyone’s needs as well as they wanna meet them.

Those are the same things that we work through in public education anyway. It is hard work. We are constantly evolving and trying to think about how every student in our class is not just there, but really learning at high levels, engaged, experiencing belonging with their peers.

That’s what we want for all students. So why not do it on the right side of history instead of in an old-fashioned segregated model? When you see this is doable, we can do this work, it convinces more people. And that’s why I’m so glad that you share these stories so broadly.

Tim Villegas:
I really appreciate your kind words and that you’re here today. And speaking of you talking with people about this work, you’ve been doing this for a long time.

So I’m wondering, let’s say you’re at a coffee shop talking with a friend about what’s been going on in your district, and someone overhears you and is trying to figure out, how did this happen? How did you move your district towards authentic inclusive practices? What’s the first thing you would say to them?

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Well, you would think I’d have this down to a quick elevator speech, since it’s a common scenario.

I think connecting back to the values that everyone goes into education with is key. People go into education because they wanna help kids, make the world a better place, and meet the needs of children. About 13, 14, 15 years ago in our district, we sat down and thought, we are doing so many things well, but we are still segregating some students with significant support needs.

They’re not attending their neighborhood schools. We’re asking families who are already navigating being parents of children with disabilities to also navigate being part of two different school communities. We are not giving students access to everything that’s happening in general education. And we asked ourselves, can we do better?

The research is very clear that we can. And what inclusion means for us is a couple of things. Number one, no segregated classrooms. Everyone attends their neighborhood school. And then we work incredibly hard and collaboratively to individualize what students need, built on a foundation of practices like Universal Design for Learning.

As we build the classroom, we ask what the starting point is so it works for more students, for almost all students. When we plan that way, we then have space to really individualize for students with significant support needs.

It doesn’t mean a student can never be learning outside of the classroom. Of course we can do that when it works for a student and family and the educators are working together with an intentional plan. We do that all the time, including for students without IEPs.

If they need learning in a learning porch or somewhere off campus to practice a particular skill or access something, we can do that.

I think one of the myths of inclusion is that it’s one size fits all, that we’re just taking students out of segregated spaces and putting them into the general ed class you remember.

What we’re really doing is teaching differently. We’re anticipating variability across every classroom. When you expect that, you plan for it differently. You collaborate and use the expertise of multiple educators in the space. And that teaming becomes paramount because each educator brings expertise about content, accessibility, disability, and language acquisition.

And when we work together, we can have really inclusive and excellent schools where students achieve at high levels.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
You know, one of the things that interests me, Tim, have you ever looked into TAG education? Like, what are the best practices for talented and gifted students, identified as talented and gifted?

Tim Villegas:
I have some personal experience with exploring what talented or gifted education looks like in our family. But I have always thought it strange that we separate kids to get something extra special in gifted and talented programs, when the teaching that happens in those programs seems like it would benefit all learners, not just gifted and talented. So that’s just my thoughts about that.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Well, I’m right there with you. In my previous district, I oversaw gifted education for a period of time, and I learned a lot. I went to a lot of conferences and learned that these strategies—having inquiry-based learning, allowing student choice, allowing different ways of representing and expressing learning—line up exactly with Universal Design for Learning.

So why are we thinking these have to be separate and that only some students get access to those? As we’ve focused on inclusion and inclusive practices around no longer segregating students with significant support needs and identifying instructional practices that engage a wider range of students, we’re also thinking about students who need challenge and engagement but may or may not be identified as talented and gifted.

When we do it well, we’re engaging all of those students and finding pathways for them to experience success. That was a real turning point for me, realizing that the strategies used in a quote-unquote talented and gifted classroom and the strategies used in a well-designed universally designed learning space are really the same. And it affirms that when we do this well, it can benefit all students.

Tim Villegas:
Yes, absolutely. I’ve talked to so many people that sometimes the stories I remember get crossed. I don’t know who told me this story, but I remember a student being in a regular track of a department—say history or language arts—and the expectations on that learner were not exceptionally low, but they weren’t high.

A teacher recommended the student for an honors or gifted class, and the student was shocked, asking why. That made a huge difference. The student moved to the class, did exceptionally well, and years later asked the teacher why they were chosen. The teacher said they picked one or two students every semester to advocate for.

That decision made the difference. Not to say the student wasn’t special or gifted, but the advocacy mattered. That’s such a huge lesson. We all need to be that teacher.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Those expectations and identity are incredibly powerful. I think about that when we have low expectations in segregated classrooms. What are we communicating to students?

Back to your coffee shop question, I would say this is the right work for all kids. And when you dive into it, you need to engage everyone in your district. This is systems change. It’s not just the special ed teacher in one classroom. It’s helping everyone understand who belongs, how expectations matter, and how we can adapt classrooms and systems to meet student needs.

We did some things well early on engaging stakeholders, and we had some misses. We did a good job talking with parents on both sides, teachers, specialists, principals, and district office folks. We formed an Inclusive Schools Leadership Team. In our second year, we involved students, and student voice was huge.

Our big miss was not involving union leadership early on. We learned that lesson quickly. Now we have strong connections with our associations. If I could do it again, I would include them from the start.

The next thing is to find friends in the work. No district’s journey is the same. We built relationships with other districts and do learning walks in each other’s schools every year. Seeing inclusion in action makes a huge difference.

Sometimes you need to bring new teachers or board members into classrooms to understand the why. Groups like Urban Collaborative or MCIE help you find those friends.

Finally, trust your professionals. Teachers are amazing. This is ready, fire, aim work. You can’t wait until everything is perfect. You prepare, you move, and you adjust. You learn the work by doing the work.

I’ve seen districts stay in planning mode for years while maintaining segregated classrooms. At some point, you have to get in and keep adjusting. We know this is the right work from social justice, research, school climate, and anti-bullying perspectives.

We spend time on anti-bullying while adults segregate students. How do those things align when building inclusive schools?

We also overestimate our importance as adults. Teachers matter, instructional practices matter, but peers matter deeply. When we segregate peers, we lose learning that happens between students.

Tim Villegas:
That’s a good counterargument to the fear that a student will be disruptive. The conventional wisdom is that students who act differently will prevent others from learning. But what I’m hearing is that students learn from each other, and learning to live together is a more important lesson.

After the break, we dig into what it really looks like to lead inclusion at the systems level, how districts make the shift, where they stumble, and why expectations and collaboration matter so much, especially as students get older. This episode is brought to you by Adaptiverse.

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Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Yes. I would affirm that. A couple of years ago, during a learning walk at a middle school, we entered a math classroom. A student with extensive support needs was working on something different with a paraeducator, counting money, while the class worked on equations.

It wasn’t ideal, but a peer was sitting next to the student, engaging with him, counting money together. They were laughing. The teacher was teaching at the front. The peer was able to toggle between tasks without difficulty.

The student with support needs was vocalizing happily. I wondered if it was distracting. I asked another student if it was hard to learn with the noise. She looked at me and said, “Lady, he has a right to be here. This is his math class.”

That belief doesn’t happen overnight. It’s why you stay in the work. The fear of distraction wasn’t happening. Kids were learning to accept difference. You can’t put a price on that.

Tim Villegas:
Oh my gosh. Wow. You just got told.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
But this is the thing that might not happen year one, right? Is why you stay in it and what’s the culture and the beliefs that we’re building about who belongs now. And I don’t know if I worked with that teacher, maybe that was atypical of how things are going and we need to work on instructional practices, or maybe it was just a moment in time. You have to be very careful when you pop in and out of classes to make too much judgment.

But what was clear was this fear of distraction not only wasn’t happening, kids were able to toggle back and forth really well, and what they were learning about accepting people and understanding difference, you really can’t put a price on that.

Tim Villegas:
Oh yeah. Wow. That’s great. And what grade was that?

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
That was seventh grade.

Tim Villegas:
Seventh grade. Okay. Great. And that’s a great example because a lot of people say you can’t do this in the higher grades or middle school. And so I’m wondering about high school, because that is a common argument or criticism of moving toward an inclusive model.

That it’s easier to do it in the lower grades, easier in elementary, easier in middle school, but once they get to high school, it’s a whole different thing and it might not be worth doing. So I’m wondering if you have any examples from high school.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
You might not be surprised that I have some strong feelings about this and a lot of examples. I actually think high school is a great place to be inclusive. And there are things built into high schools that support inclusive practices in powerful ways.

A couple of years ago, I shifted from overseeing student services to overseeing our high schools. From that general ed point of view, I thought, as an inclusive district, how do I hold those values and bring them here?

That was the year we were coming out of COVID, and we knew we needed to change some things in our master schedule. We met with high school teachers who were honest and said they believe in inclusive practices but do not have time for collaboration and co-planning. And that is foundational.

So we studied this for a year. We asked, what is the inclusive way to think about a schedule? We included learning specialists, special ed teachers, and language specialists. We identified guiding principles: more choice for students, time for teacher collaboration, predictable transitions.

After a year, we decided on a new A/B schedule and spent another year planning implementation. One foundation was life class, where students stay with the same cohort for four years. This builds connection so students don’t get lost in large high schools.

Life class includes executive functioning lessons all students need, planning for post-high school, intervention or extension time, community building, and assemblies. By building a universal structure, we supported more students.

High school also offers electives and activities where students explore identity and find community. One of our goals has been that all students served by an IEP are in at least one co-curricular activity.

We also allow affinity spaces. Students may opt into groups based on identity or interest, without being predetermined.

Another investment at the high school level is professional learning around Universal Design for Learning. We worked with Katie Novak’s group, and Chris Browne did PD for all high school teachers. They now engage in studio groups focused on UDL.

When you step back and think about what we want high schools to be, they are a great place to be inclusive. Kids are deeply interested in social justice, and it’s a powerful place to build connection.

Tim Villegas:
Those are great examples. And if you’re listening and thinking, I could do this in my high school, make sure you share this episode with your administrators and district leaders. People need to know there are schools and districts doing this work.

I want to ask about learners with more extensive support needs versus learners with learning disabilities. Some educators believe those learners need separate spaces for specialized instruction. How would you talk with an educator who believes that?

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
The research around strong MTSS systems provides a good framework. In our district, we looked at our literacy curriculum and realized Tier 1 needed improvement. We were referring many students for learning disabilities when we needed stronger foundational instruction.

We describe ourselves as having a default toward inclusion and the general ed classroom. That’s the starting point, not an exclusive stance. We ask whether the classroom instruction is meeting needs and provide targeted supports within the classroom.

We monitor progress. If a student isn’t making progress, we do something different. We don’t cling to one model. The ultimate goal is that the child learns to read.

That might mean bringing students together for explicit instruction, inside or outside the classroom. We also consider how the student feels. For some, pull-out is devastating. For others, it’s relieving.

As inclusionists, we default to the classroom and belonging, but we never avoid making individualized decisions to ensure progress.

Tim Villegas:
That’s a great point. Inclusive schools are responsive schools. They respond to learners without creating separate programs.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
We’re also improving our tools for monitoring progress so we intervene sooner, always with the default toward the classroom.

Tim Villegas:
I’m wondering if you can help our listeners understand what’s happening in Oregon right now in the educational landscape.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Oregon has had strong leadership from the Department of Education around equity, and inclusion is an equity issue. We have the All Students Belong Act, which is powerful.

At the same time, funding is a major challenge. Rising costs are not matched by funding increases. I also have some envy of Washington State, which has taken strong leadership around inclusive practices.

We’re more grassroots. District leaders are banding together. My superintendent, Dr. Kathy Ludwig, and I started the Inclusive Schools Leadership Collaborative to engage superintendents around inclusion as equity.

It’s been small but powerful. We recently hosted Shelly Moore, invited districts statewide, and encouraged them to join the collaborative. Our Coalition of Oregon School Administrators has now signed on as a sponsor.

We’ll have our first meeting next week. Because right now, whether a student is segregated often depends on zip code. That is not right.

We are in process. It’s messy. Some things go well, others are challenging, but we have to stay in the work.

There’s also uncertainty around leadership at the national level, which can feel discouraging or motivating. Those are the emotions educators are navigating alongside funding challenges.

Tim Villegas:
Hmm. So Jennifer, do you have any go-to examples that inclusion works? You have shared a lot of really great stories, and I’m wondering if there is one that you typically go to when you’re talking about does inclusion really work?

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
I have so many. It’s hard to pick one because I have the joy of being able to stay in one space for this period of time. I’ve gotten to see student after student after student. But I think I wanna tell you a story of a student named Ryder.

Last year, I happened to be at one of our high schools. This is a student I’ve known since kindergarten. When he came in in kindergarten, we still had a self-contained classroom. We called it a communication resource classroom. It was focused around the needs of students who experienced autism.

As we moved toward inclusion, he moved to his home school. It’s been this whole arc of the journey.

I was at the high school as school was ending. Kids were getting on buses. It was a little chaotic. I was really there to see if the buses were leaving on time. The last bus left, and there were three students still standing there. Two of them were throwing a football. I thought they were fine.

Then I saw Ryder. He looked distraught. I wondered if I should intervene. I know him, but he doesn’t know me. I decided to hang back and see what happened.

He started walking back toward the school and headed to the back door. Some students were hanging out there. They said, “Hey Ryder, what’s happening? Are you okay?”

He said, “I missed my bus.”

They said, “Oh, I’m so sorry.” One student said, “I know where you live. The city bus goes near your house. Have you ever ridden the city bus before?”

I was thinking, I hope we don’t send him on the city bus for his first time. Another student said, “Before you decide, do you wanna go call your parents and see if they have ideas?”

He said yes, but didn’t know where the phone was. A student said, “I’ll walk you to the office.” They walked him in, and he called his parents.

That interaction had so many elements of why inclusion works. Ryder was developing problem-solving skills. He knew to go back inside. In many schools, he would have been fully supervised with a paraeducator.

Those students knew him. They had known him for years. They understood he needed support, but they treated him as a high school kid with dignity and belonging. That unscripted moment is really sticking with me.

Tim Villegas:
That is a great story. They didn’t try to fix the problem for him. They supported him through it.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Yes.

Tim Villegas:
It would have been easy to get an adult or ignore him or move away.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Yes.

Tim Villegas:
Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I love that.

Okay. Last question before the mystery question. Where do you look for inspiration and guidance in this work?

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Last year we hosted Urban Collaborative with Portland Public Schools. Colleagues from around the country came who care deeply about inclusion.

We held a student panel with high school students with disabilities talking about why inclusion matters to them. Seeing them speak to hundreds of people was incredibly powerful.

We also held a panel with our original teachers who have been here through the whole transition, both special ed and general ed teachers. They shared joys, missteps, and areas where we’re still learning.

Our students, teachers, parents, administrators, and principals inspire me. We have a bond coming up that would redo elementary playgrounds to be more inclusive because parents kept advocating.

We’ve also had the opportunity to work with incredible people. We hosted the Bernas and screened their film. We’ve had Paula Kluth and Shelley Moore. I met Michael Giangreco. I follow Katie Novak’s group, the TIES Center, and the SWIFT Center.

And Think Inclusive.

Tim Villegas:
Thank you. I wasn’t trying to lead you there.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
I was listening to your episode with Samuel Habib today. We met them when they screened The Ride Ahead. Highlighting voices of people who experience disability matters so much.

Sometimes I think, why are you talking to me? I don’t have that lived experience. Then I remember that people leading systems have a responsibility to speak up and act.

Tim Villegas:
That’s fantastic. I want to mention your book, Leading for All. Is there an updated version or another book coming?

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Shout out to my co-author, Dr. Josh Flossy. We don’t have an updated version, but I’ve been thinking about another book focused more on high schools because there isn’t much literature there.

Tim Villegas:
Breaking news. Book publishers, knock on Jennifer’s door.

If people want to reach out, can we include your email in the show notes?

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Absolutely. We host people, join meetings, and support districts where we can. This is our role. There are other areas where we shouldn’t lead, but in this area we take responsibility to lead.

Tim Villegas:
We’ve talked about inclusive systems, expectations, and belonging. Now it’s time for the mystery question.

Since you’re a listener, you know about it.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Very excited.

Tim Villegas:
My daughter usually writes these, but we’re out of questions. So we’re picking one randomly. The question is: what was your first car? I can go first.

My first car was a Mitsubishi Montero. I got it in high school. I did not take care of it. I skipped oil changes. I drove it into the ground.

One day it overheated on the freeway. I cracked the engine block. The repair cost more than the car was worth. I loved it, but I didn’t take care of it.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
As 16-year-olds do.

Tim Villegas:
Exactly. Take care of your cars now.

What about you?

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
I didn’t have a car until after college when I started teaching kindergarten. I was 21.

It was a Peugeot 604, an older French car. Beautiful steel color, leather seats like a worn-in bomber jacket, a Blaupunkt stereo. It was a gas guzzler but felt luxurious.

I loved it, but after six months I got into a fender bender. It cost more to fix than it was worth, so it was totaled.

Tim Villegas:
Only six months. Oh no.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
But those seats and that sunroof were lovely.

Tim Villegas:
That’s a bummer. Thank you for sharing.

Thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Jennifer Spencer-Iiams:
Thank you.

Tim Villegas:
That was Dr. Jennifer Spencer-Iiams. One thing I’m really sitting with after this conversation is how much inclusion is about the everyday systems we build or don’t build around people. Jennifer kept coming back to expectations, peer relationships, and the idea that belonging isn’t something you can just attach on later. It’s something you design for from the start.

I also keep thinking about how often segregation gets justified as being easier or more realistic, when what we’re really talking about is adult comfort, not student need. If we want schools where every learner belongs, we have to be willing to shift schedules, roles, and assumptions, and trust that kids are capable of learning with and from each other.

One practical step for educators is to look honestly at whether collaboration is actually built into our day. If we believe inclusive schools are a team effort, and I think you do, then general education teachers, special education teachers, specialists, anyone involved with educating learners needs real time to plan together, not just goodwill and best intentions squeezed into lunch or before or after school.

If this episode resonated with you, share it with a colleague who’s building inclusive schools. Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and follow Think Inclusive wherever you get your podcasts.

Shout out to every school leader who is working to make their schools more inclusive. I know you are out there. If you wanna share your journey, no matter where you are on that journey, you can always email tvillegas@mcie.org. I’d love to know what is happening in your school or district.

Now, let’s roll the credits.

Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I write, edit, mix, master. I basically wear all the podcast hats and the baseball caps. This show is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, with additional production help from Jill Wagoner. Our original music is by Miles Kredich, with extra vibes from Melod.ie.

Big thanks to our sponsor, IXL. Visit ixl.com/inclusive. Another big thanks to our other sponsor, Adaptiverse. Visit Adaptiverse at adaptiverseapp.com.

Fun fact: February 20th is Love Your Pet Day, and research funded by the NIH shows that interacting with animals can lower stress hormones like cortisol, reduce blood pressure, and increase feelings of social support, and that includes students with disabilities. Studies found that children on the autism spectrum were calmer and more socially engaged when playing with guinea pigs in the classroom, and kids with ADHD showed better focus and social skills when reading to therapy dogs.

Even watching fish swim can promote calm, reminding us that inclusion and connection sometimes start with the most unexpected relationships. Have you ever used animals to create an inclusive classroom? I would love to know about it.

Email me at tvillegas@mcie.org. I read every single message. If you’ve made it this far, you’re officially part of the Think Inclusive Inclusion Crew. Want to help us keep moving the needle for inclusion? Head to mcie.org and click the donate button. Give $5, $10, $20. It helps us keep partnering with schools and districts to move inclusive practices forward and support educators doing the work.

Find us on the socials almost everywhere at Think Inclusive. Thanks for hanging out, and remember, inclusion always works.