Jay Ruderman on Authentic Representation and Inclusion in Media ~ 1011

Tim Villegas
Hi everyone, wherever you are in the world, Happy Holidays from me and everyone at the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. We are taking some much-needed rest the last couple of weeks of 2022. But we have a ton of great new content in store for 2023. Stay tuned to your podcast feed. And if you aren’t already, make sure you are signed up for the MCIE email list. Who is ready to move the inclusion needle for 2023?

My name is Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, and you are listening to Think Inclusive, a show where, with every conversation, we try to build bridges between families, educators, and disability rights advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. You can learn more about who we are and what we do at MCIE.org.

For this episode, I speak with Jay Ruderman, the president of the Ruderman Family Foundation, which focuses on inclusion, diversity, and social justice. He is the host of All About Change, a podcast focused on activism, change, and courage. Jay is a social justice activist who has spent his life promoting the inclusion of people with disabilities and, through his foundation, has been an integral part of holding the entertainment industry accountable for its lack of authentic representation of people with disabilities.

Just a quick content warning: Jay and I discuss some sensitive topics, such as suicide, school shootings, and gun violence. Our conversation was recorded in May of 2022. Thank you so much for listening. And now my interview with Jay Ruderman.

Welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast, Jay.

Jay Ruderman
Thank you, Tim. It’s a pleasure to be your guest.

Tim Villegas
So Jay, would you take some time and introduce yourself to our audience of inclusionists?

Jay Ruderman
I am a social justice activist based in Boston. I run the Ruderman Family Foundation, which historically has focused on disability rights. We came into the issue of inclusion as an issue of fairness. Our first major grant was to improve the day schools in Boston, which were not inclusive and were excluding children with disabilities, and to make them an inclusive system. That was over a decade in the making.

Since then, we expanded to work in partnership with the Israeli government and changed policy regarding people with disabilities in Israel—moving away from a segregationist model of group homes, segregated schools, and sheltered workshops to position people with disabilities as full-fledged members of society.

From there, we got heavily into advocacy—speaking out against injustices against people with disabilities, whether by corporations, governments, or celebrities, and especially within the entertainment industry. We’ve done a tremendous amount of work changing the dynamic in that industry.

We are a philanthropic, grant-making organization. Many grants are made in conjunction with us bringing ideas to influential organizations and helping shape their policy to be more inclusive and person-centered.

Tim Villegas
Gotcha. So with the grants that you provide, you’re really looking for organizations that you can help direct policy? Is that what I’m hearing?

Jay Ruderman
Yeah, exactly. We’re looking for influential organizations that may not have gotten this issue completely correct, and then we try to work with them to make their policies more just and equitable.

The best example is the entertainment industry. Since it’s so large, we first approached it by being super critical—calling out films for inauthentically casting people without disabilities in roles of disability and being the fly in the ointment to get the industry’s attention.

Then we shifted to a couple of things:

• Work with the studios. I have to thank people like Danny Woodburn, Marlee Matlin, and directors Peter and Bobby Farrelly, who opened doors when we weren’t getting anywhere.
• Speak the industry’s language. We said, “The entertainment industry is changing. Inauthentic representation is a problem—not just for people with disabilities, but for African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and many other historically underrepresented groups.”

With the disability community, it was the last to the table. We had to make the case because the industry would say, “Isn’t acting about playing people who aren’t like you? And by the way, in the last 30 years, half the men who won Best Actor Oscars did so for playing a disability.”

So we created a pledge and got four major studios to open all auditions to people with disabilities. Then we started highlighting productions—TV or film—that authentically cast people with disabilities. We began to see change: more films and TV shows with authentic representation.

In the interim, we published white papers showing the injustice within the industry and the economic value of authentic representation. Finally, we introduced the Seal of Approval to recognize productions doing a good job.

I think it had an impact. Look at the Oscars where CODA won Best Picture and Troy Kotsur won Best Supporting Actor. The message got through to the Academy that disability representation matters.

Tim Villegas
When you were developing your strategy for how you were going to advocate for change, was this based on any sort of implementation science or systems change thought? Or was it more that you were doing what you thought would make the biggest impact?

Jay Ruderman
To be completely honest, it didn’t start with a strategy. It started with, “This is an injustice, and someone should speak out.”

We had many allies and advisory groups made up of people with disabilities. I live by “Nothing about us without us.” Even though we’re a philanthropic organization and I’m an activist who doesn’t identify as a person with a disability, I’m not doing this in a vacuum.

Eventually, we realized that if we kept being super critical—the fly in the ointment—we wouldn’t get anywhere. So we started speaking the language of the industry: data that could help them make money. We transitioned from being critics to saying, “We’re going to praise you, and this will benefit you as an organization.”

The culture in America has changed. Film and TV have changed. You see much more authentic representation now than when I grew up. We did a PSA with Octavia Spencer, and she said the first time she saw someone like herself on TV was The Jeffersons. Seeing yourself authentically portrayed is powerful.

We’re living in an age where authenticity matters. We caught the wave at the right time, but many groups before us paved the way. I remember an LA Times article listing the top 100 people who could change the diversity conversation in Hollywood. It included every ethnic minority group except people with disabilities. We wrote to the reporter, and his response was, “Oops, I left that category out.” Danny Woodburn and I wrote an op-ed saying, “You’re overlooking people with disabilities.”

There has been change. Is it perfect? No. TV moves faster than film. But there are more advocates and more people in power who care—people like Scott Silveri, Glen Mazzara, John Krasinski—who say, “I want the young deaf girl to be played by a young deaf girl, not someone acting deaf.”

These things are happening, but we need more leadership. Once culture starts to change, it moves forward.

Tim Villegas
Our audience is mostly educators—people interested in authentic, inclusive education. Not just a student with a disability sitting in a classroom without participating, but a student who has membership, belonging, and community. Can the education community—K–12 or college—learn anything from how the entertainment industry changed its mindset?

Jay Ruderman
Change happens slowly, but there’s a way to affect change. You don’t need to run a foundation to do this. Anyone can speak out when they see injustice or a system acting inappropriately. Get others to speak out with you, and do it forcefully.

In our case, we used the media. Media pressure matters—even the biggest corporations and studios pay attention. If you’re talking about a school system, city, or town, people notice when their names appear in the newspaper, and they start looking at the issue more carefully.

My advice:

• Speak out.
• Organize.
• Get others to speak out.

Change will come. Legal action should be the last resort when people refuse to change. At some point, switch from, “You’re doing the wrong thing,” to, “Let us help you. Let’s work together to improve this.” Most people want to be on the right side of history. Sometimes it takes a concerted strategy to get there.

Tim Villegas
Let’s talk about your podcast. On your last episode, there was a passing comment about how things might be changing. Can you let us in on that?

Jay Ruderman
You mean what the podcast is going to become? It started as a disability-oriented podcast and evolved into an activism podcast. We’re changing the name to All About Change to better reflect what we’re championing—people who turn adversity into opportunity and work to make the world better.

It’s been an evolution for me. I know a lot about disability issues—I’ve been engrossed in that professionally for 20 years. Some of the issues I talk about now, I didn’t know much about at first. But change is important. We always have to change as individuals and as a society. That’s what the podcast is about now: change.

Tim Villegas
It was something you were already highlighting. So the new name seems like an even better fit.

Jay Ruderman
Yeah, I hope it works. The podcast industry is big and saturated. But I think podcasts are great—people learn so much from them. They also learn from entertainment, which is why we focused on the entertainment industry for so many years. Whether you’re watching a documentary, TV show, or movie, you’re taking away a lot from that content. It shapes who you are.

I’ve been thinking a lot about mass shootings in America. It’s horrific. In a country as advanced as the U.S., the fact that we can’t come up with a solution is embarrassing and heartbreaking. I don’t know the solution, but I think we need to tell stories about people who’ve gone through this and how it’s destroyed their lives. That’s what a podcast should do: you should walk away saying, “I learned something. What can I do based on what I learned?”

Tim Villegas
Storytelling has been on my mind lately. Think Inclusive is going through a bit of a transformation too. When I first started, I called people on Skype and recorded phone conversations—I didn’t know what I was doing.

Now that I’ve had time to develop what we’re trying to do, what you said about how people change their mindset keeps coming back to stories. The podcasts that have affected me the most weren’t just interesting conversations; they were narrative storytelling podcasts that put something on my heart—made me want to learn more or change my behavior. That’s the kind of storytelling I want to be part of. It sounds like that’s what you want to do as well.

Jay Ruderman
Yeah, storytelling is key. If you can have a story that grips people, that’s powerful. I used to think, “I’ll contact everyone I know who’s famous and put them on the podcast.” Yes, people want to hear from celebrities, but sometimes the most interesting podcasts feature people you don’t know—people who’ve gone through something traumatic.

Take Kevin Hines, who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and survived—a miracle. He keeps telling his story: “If anyone had stopped me on the way—on the bus, on the bridge—and said, ‘Hey man, are you okay? Want to talk?’ I wouldn’t have jumped.” That’s powerful.

Storytelling is how we learn. Why do we read books, listen to podcasts, watch movies or TV? Yes, for entertainment, but also to take something away. The best books and podcasts make us say, “Wow, I learned something. I have to do something about it.”

Sometimes I do podcasts where I don’t know what to expect. For example, I have an upcoming episode with Maria Garcia, an investigative journalist who did a podcast called Anything for Selena. Selena was the number one Latina performer before she was assassinated, but decades later, her impact is profound. Hearing someone talk about that passionately is powerful.

These stories impact me personally. After the podcast, I’m still learning, still listening to the music, still thinking. That’s why we do this—because we care deeply and want to make the world better.

Jay Ruderman
What’s the story that you want to tell?

I think people go through an evolutionary process. We try to grow, become better, and do more interesting things. I’m always looking to connect with people doing interesting work—people I can trust and work with.

The podcast is one thing I do because I want to share stories about aspects of society we’re all struggling with and thinking about. I’ve written a book—it’s not done yet, but it’s about my journey in activism: how I became an activist, what I did, and what success I had. Activism isn’t talked about enough. We celebrate celebrities, politicians, and billionaires, but activists are the ones changing culture.

Through my association with Hollywood, I’ve seen how impactful entertainment can be in shaping opinions. That’s the new road I’m going down—supporting documentaries and films that can change hearts and minds.

I’m excited about the future and the different ways we can move forward. You’re always looking for your next challenge. At my age, the number one piece of advice I’d give is: work with people you trust and like. Life is short. You’ll meet a lot of people, but find the good ones and connect with them. If it doesn’t click, move on.

Tim Villegas
You talked about the school shootings. In preparation for our conversation, I listened to your latest podcast, and I can’t believe how timely it was.

Jay Ruderman
Yeah, that episode was recorded and released a while ago. After the Buffalo supermarket shooting, we re-released it. I had no idea that soon after, we’d have the Uvalde, Texas shooting. It was such a powerful episode that we felt it needed to be out there again.

I’m a parent of four kids—all in school. It used to be that school was the safe place you sent your kids to learn and grow. Now, every time we send them out the door, we don’t know what’s going to happen. It’s tragic, and we’re unwilling to address it.

I rarely get political. As a foundation, we can’t advocate for legislation, but we can talk about issues. There’s a lack of willingness in this country to address this. Someone sent me something about Scotland: in the early 2000s, they had a mass shooting, changed their gun laws, and haven’t had one since.

I’m not a hunter or gun owner, but I believe in the right to own weapons—it’s part of American culture. What I don’t understand is the easy access to weapons of mass destruction. It makes no sense. At some point, we need profiles in courage—people willing to say, “This can’t go on.”

We can’t be a society that turns its head when dozens of children are killed. It’s just not right.

Tim Villegas
In your interview with Nicole, she talked about access. It’s not just a mental health issue—though we can always do better there—but access to weapons is too easy.

You mentioned Kevin Hines. I was reading Malcolm Gladwell’s Talking to Strangers. He writes about access for people who attempt or die by suicide. Restrict access, and the suicide rate drops. It seems so simple, yet we’re not making progress.

Jay Ruderman
Right. Sometimes things happen that push change. For example, the Golden Gate Bridge was a hotspot for suicides. Kevin advocated for nets under the bridge as a failsafe, and I believe he succeeded.

We need precautions to make ourselves safer. Every time we do something, there’s pushback. When I grew up, no one wore seatbelts. Now everyone does, and it saves lives. Drunk driving laws have toughened up. We’ve made progress before.

With mass shootings, it’s not cut and dry. Access to weapons must be addressed. Is there political will? It doesn’t seem so. Mental health is another issue—access to services is lacking, especially after COVID, inflation, and war. Mental health is as important as physical health, but we don’t treat it that way.

There’s still stigma, though celebrities like Kevin Love, Selena Gomez, Simone Biles, and Naomi Osaka speaking out helps. But we also need services.

We live in a polarized country. But we can’t keep locking ourselves in our homes and arming ourselves. That’s not a solution for a healthy society.

Tim Villegas
Absolutely. Any final thoughts you want to leave our audience with—about inclusion, mental health, disability?

Jay Ruderman
All the issues you mentioned—fighting for inclusion, disability rights, equality—are super complex. They require people to engage in change, and change is hard. You may not see success right away; you may see failure along the way. The biggest thing is not to get discouraged. Keep doing what you believe in. Even if you fail again and again, ultimately, if you work hard enough, connect with other people, avoid working in a silo, and stay open to allies, you’ll see progress.

Allyship is very important. You may be from a certain community, but you need allies, and allies matter. We’re in a polarized society where people don’t always seek allyship, but allyship works. Most people involved in advocacy and pushing for inclusion are good people. If enough good people connect, change happens.

Tim Villegas
Jay Ruderman, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive podcast, and thank you for all the work you’ve done with your foundation.

Jay Ruderman
Thank you so much, Tim. It’s been a pleasure.

Tim Villegas
Think Inclusive is written, edited, and sound designed by Tim Villegas and is a production of MCIE. Original music by Miles Kredich.

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For more information about inclusive education or to learn how MCIE can partner with you in your school or district, visit MCIE.org.

We will be back in a couple of weeks. See you next year. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works.