Katie Novak on Why UDL Is Not the Goal—but the Tool for Equity ~ 1315

Katie Novak
UDL is not the goal.

Tim Villegas
Hmm.

Katie Novak
The goal is that all kids are learning at high levels. It’s not universally designed unless every single person can be included and every single person can work toward the same goal. One teacher with high expectations changed my whole entire life. A lot of the times when I’m talking to teachers, I say, please be Mrs. Krauss. And the thing is, she had no evidence that I would be successful.

Tim Villegas
Hello friends. Welcome back to Think Inclusive, real conversations about building schools where every learner belongs. I’m your host, Tim Villegas. Today’s episode is about how Universal Design for Learning isn’t just a checklist. It’s a mindset for equity when you plan for all learners. Our guest is Katie Novak, internationally recognized UDL expert, author, and educator.

What if inclusion wasn’t just about moving a desk? What if equity meant designing classrooms where every learner belongs and thrives? Katie Novak is here to tell us why Universal Design for Learning isn’t the goal, but the tool that makes it possible. How inclusive practices dismantle systemic inequities, and why high expectations can change a student’s life, including Katie’s.

Before we meet our guest, I want to tell you about our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by IXL. IXL is an all‑in‑one platform for K‑12 that helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress in one place. As students practice, IXL adapts to their individual needs so that every learner gets just‑right support and challenge. And each student gets a personalized learning plan to close gaps. Check it out at IXL.com slash inclusive. Again, that’s ixl.com slash inclusive.

All right, after a quick break, it’s time to Think Inclusive with Katie Novak. Catch you on the other side.

Tim Villegas
Katie Novak, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast again for the third time. I believe this is three. Thrice guest. Wow. It’s been a minute since we’ve talked. Before we jump into content, what’s going on with you? What’s happening?

Katie Novak
Thrice. Things are great. I’m consulting and I’ve had this amazing opportunity the past couple years to do a lot of international work, which is incredible. It’s amazing to see that our belief that all kids deserve an education with opportunities for deeper learning is universal. I’ve visited some really cool places and I’m teaching classes at the University of Pennsylvania, which has been lovely. I think everything I do is teaching, but this is true teaching where you’re planning lessons, assessing work, providing feedback, and I love that part as well. Things have been good. I’m a mom of four. I have three teenagers now, which is very scary, but they’re fun.

Tim Villegas
That’s amazing. Thank you for the updates. You are probably most well known to our audience as a Universal Design for Learning expert. So let’s talk about UDL. One of the things I always think about is that when people try to implement UDL, they think of it as a checklist: these are the things I have to do, I have to hit all these boxes. But what you’ve said is that it’s actually a mindset. So how can school leaders support this shift to UDL, because a lot of schools are trying to move toward this framework without making it feel like it’s just another thing to do?

Katie Novak
Yeah, so what I would say, which is going to sound shocking but I’ll back it up, is UDL is not the goal.

Tim Villegas
Hmm.

Katie Novak
The goal is that all kids are learning at high levels. And it’s founded in the belief that all kids can learn at high levels when we get the conditions right. The truth is that right now our classrooms, our schools, our districts are not designed in a way that allows all kids to learn at high levels. The nation’s report card just came out. We’re seeing that despite teachers working harder than ever, we are not making progress. We don’t have most kids in this country learning at high levels. It’s not for lack of passion or investment. It’s that we don’t have the right conditions.

Universal design is not something you can simply say you do. It’s measured in the impact on the learners we serve. You can’t say you have universally designed something if you’re not willing to include all students in that learning space and if all of them don’t have access points and entry points to make significant progress.

Too often people say, we’re doing this already, but then they don’t have all students making a year of growth or more every year. There are still so many kids in substantially separate settings. When we’re talking about universal design, we have to say: our job is to design an environment that works for everyone. There is clear evidence it doesn’t work for everyone yet. So let’s move away from this one‑size‑fits‑all instruction and the belief that we’re doing it already because maybe we provide some choices. Let’s acknowledge that there are real barriers preventing kids from learning. We have to identify those barriers, get flexible, and eliminate them.

I love analogies. One I’ve used recently is camping. It’s summer, you say, let’s go camping. I ask people: how many of you love camping? Some say yes. Then I ask how many of you do not like camping? There’s an equal number. Then I say: if this conference was a camping trip and all of us needed to camp right now, could we enjoy time together around a campfire if you got to decide what you eat, what you drink, and what activity you want to take part in? Everyone says yes.

Then I say: too bad, I’m in charge. I’ve decided we’re all having hot dogs, drinking beer, and going swimming in lakes where you can’t see the bottom and things tangle on your legs. Some of you are excited, and that’s fine, but it’s very clear that this won’t work for everyone. There are two reasons. The first is access: some people have plant‑based diets, some are sober or not old enough to drink, some don’t know how to swim. Does that mean you’re out of the camping trip? Because that’s what we do to kids: you can’t decode, you can’t write in that way, you can’t do it that quickly, so you have to go somewhere else.

And then there’s the group who technically could do all those things but doesn’t want to. They choose not to. It’s not just about choice. Imagine I pull aside everyone who doesn’t drink beer and say, don’t worry, I got you. Do you want your beer in a glass, a cup, or a bottle? And they’re like, what are you talking about, Katie? I don’t drink beer. A lot of what we call universal design are choices like that.

Tim Villegas
Hmm.

Katie Novak
It’s like, I gave him a choice. Do you want the beer in a cup? Do you want it in a frosty glass? But the kid doesn’t consume alcohol. We have to think differently about what really is the goal. The goal is that everyone has a drink. There’s nothing wrong with providing beer as an option, but also having water and coffee and making it BYOB. Suddenly we can all be part of it. It’s not universally designed unless every single person can be included and every single person can work toward the same goal.

That is a huge shift because you can’t be in a district where most kids are not working toward or above grade level and say you’re universally designing already. It goes back to John Dewey’s quote. I think I’ve shared this with you before. In 1910 he said, to say you’ve taught something that no one has learned is like saying you sold something that no one bought. It wasn’t designed for everyone to learn if not everybody learned.

Tim Villegas
I think you mentioned students who are not present, who are segregated. And I think there is a misconception that UDL is for everyone else within that framework. And then those kids over there will get something extra special.

Katie Novak
Ha ha ha. Mm‑hmm.

Tim Villegas
And I love the analogy. I teach a class for pre‑service teachers who are in alternative pathways for certification. I play your clip about the cake, the layers. I say, nobody wants this one layer of cake as the whole cake. And then it’s like, okay, well, those kids over there just get the frosting.

Katie Novak
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm‑hmm.

Tim Villegas
The extra special frosting, that’s what they get. But no, everyone gets everything. It reinforces what you’re saying. This idea that everyone gets everything. I love your analogy, especially about the cups. We can change what you serve the beer in, but it doesn’t change that some people don’t want it or can’t have it. That’s a great analogy. Love that.

Katie Novak
Use it, it’s yours. Listeners, it’s yours. Go out on your next camping trip. And the thing is, we would never have a camping trip in that way. If you showed up at my house, knocked on my door, and came in, I’d say, can I get you something to drink? My natural inclination is to list everything I have.

Tim Villegas
Ha ha ha ha. Right.

Katie Novak
Can I get you something to drink? I have water, I have coffee, I could get you a seltzer or a beer. That’s what we do naturally because we want to design options that work. It happens almost everywhere in the universe except classrooms.

People push back and say, come on Katie, sometimes you have to pay your taxes. I’m like, greatest example of flexibility ever. The firm goal is that if you are making money, you have to report those wages and file your taxes. But you can do it in hard copy, you can get forms from the post office in multiple languages, you can do it online, you can use TurboTax, you can hire an accountant. Even if you don’t do it in time, you can file an extension. If you don’t have all the money up front, you can pay over time. You can get a direct deposit or a check. So many options and choices recognizing that we are a beautifully diverse group of humans and we all can work toward the same goal, but we need lots of pathways to get there. That has to be true in classrooms.

Tim Villegas
Yeah. And to further your analogy, you make money and report your wages and taxes, but you also buy things. Depending on what you buy, that provides taxes. You don’t have to buy certain things. It’s all about choice and options.

So I’m just thinking—what if our classrooms were really more like real life? We have this artificial environment where the teacher is the all‑knowing, all‑powerful omniscient one who doles out information to students.

Katie Novak
My gosh, yes, you’re speaking my language.

Tim Villegas
When really it’s more organic in real life. In your job you may or may not know things, but you work collaboratively to fulfill a goal.

Katie Novak
Yeah. The model made sense before books were widely available, before public libraries, before internet and multimedia. If you didn’t get it from the teacher, there was no other place to get it. But we are far from that. We’re still operating schools like we move every 18 minutes—now we do history, now science—when learning is wildly interdisciplinary. So much of it is still individual when learning is collective and collaborative. We’re using an antiquated model that hasn’t made sense in a long time.

Tim Villegas
Yeah. Gosh, I want to go off on so many tangents here. I’m going to take a minute. I’m going to go out on a limb and ask how you’re feeling about public ed in this current moment. We’re recording in June of 2025. This will air in the fall. But how are you feeling? What are you hearing from educators? It seems like a precarious situation. Could this be the silver lining where we focus on education like never before? Could there be positive change in all this tumultuous situation?

Katie Novak
I love public education. I think public education is radical. We literally serve everyone. I wish deeply that we were able to deliver on the promise that public education provides. We say all are welcome, we will provide an education no matter what, an excellent education no matter what. The truth is that hasn’t necessarily been delivered. Not for lack of trying, but the system isn’t nimble enough to meet the needs of kids.

Families ask: it’s available to all of us, but is it really serving our children? Is it allowing them to become who they want to be? There’s evidence of wide variability. But I believe in the institution of providing something excellent for everyone. The work is: how can we confidently say this is excellent?

We have to look hard at our systems. What support do educators need to do this better? We’re underfunded in professional development, especially recently. As money gets tighter, districts cut things farthest from kids: instructional coaches, professional development, classroom support. I do a lot of work now with multi‑tiered systems of support—not just MTSS with tiers one, two, and three—but the system around it.

We need leadership drivers: shared responsibility for all kids so we can work differently; appropriate staffing; schedules that allow for innovative learning time and collaboration; family and community collaboration. If families don’t feel the public school is offering what they need, the school needs to listen.

We also need competency drivers. Teachers are struggling. I work with educators who say, I am doing everything I know how to do. We have to provide better opportunities through PD, instructional coaching, learning walks, instructional rounds, common planning, PLCs. And we’re seeing that get squeezed.

Katie Novak
And yet we’re expecting, with the world changing so quickly and kids becoming more diverse and technology evolving, we’re not giving people time to think about how to do it differently. It’s really hard to change when you’re running on the hamster wheel. When you’re talking about multi‑tiered systems, you have leadership drivers, competency drivers, and implementation drivers. Are we giving educators high‑quality instructional materials that are flexible, inclusive, and engaging? Are we allowing them to use innovative technologies that allow them to transform their classrooms? Are we providing good sources of assessment and good data so we know who is making progress and who isn’t, so we can adjust? We have to know early when something isn’t working.

But in many places we’re missing the high‑quality instructional materials, we’re missing brilliant sources of data, we don’t have nimble data systems that provide visualization so we really know how kids are doing. We don’t have the PD. We don’t necessarily have the leadership. Public education has to do a better job investing in systems so people who choose this radical work have the support they need to serve kids. If we get the conditions right in the system, then we get the conditions right for teachers and families.

This isn’t to say there is no value in alternatives—charter education, private education. Having all those options makes education vast and differentiated. But the baseline of tier one should be that, regardless of where you move in this country, you are guaranteed access to a free, excellent public education. If you choose another path, that’s freedom. But we have to make sure public education is a good option, or it’s not really a choice for parents.

Tim Villegas
Stay with us, because coming up after the break, Katie takes us deeper into the heart of equity. We’ll talk about why inclusion isn’t just moving a desk, how systems need to change to truly serve all learners, and the four pillars Katie says every school must embrace: placement, participation, high expectations, and belonging.

Plus you’ll hear a powerful story about a teacher who changed Katie’s life and what that means for every educator listening today. This show is produced by the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. MCIE partners with educators and school systems to promote authentic inclusion, foster change, and support the implementation of inclusive practices. Whether it’s district‑wide transformation, customized learner planning, or professional learning and coaching, MCIE walks alongside educators every step of the way. And our work begins with a conversation. If you’re ready to create schools where every learner belongs, visit mcie.org to get in touch and start that conversation today.

Tim Villegas
Right. Exactly. It isn’t a choice. Thank you for sharing that. In your podcast, The Education Table, there’s one episode where you talk about inclusion versus inclusive practice. The word inclusion has a lot of baggage. Could you explain or differentiate for our audience what you mean when those two things are different?

Katie Novak
Yeah. Inclusion does have a lot of baggage. First, we think of inclusion as putting kids who have special education support needs in a mainstream classroom with peers. But true inclusion is everybody included—students with learning disabilities, students who struggle with social‑emotional regulation or behavior, multilingual students, students who need acceleration and enrichment. How do we ensure everybody gets what they need?

It has become tagged to this idea that we’re going to take students and pick them up from this magical special education place and put them down, and as long as they’re in the room, they’re included. Technically, if they’re enrolled, you can report them as included.

This leads to the funky language of least restrictive environment. We’re required by law to ensure students are in the least restrictive environment available. LRE 1 means they’re with peers in general education for 80% of the day or more. LRE 2 is 40–79%. LRE 3, considered not included, is 39% or less. Many kids are in lunch or specials but get core academics elsewhere.

A lot of people think the classroom is too restrictive, so let’s move the kid. What we need to think is: why is the classroom restrictive? Let’s eliminate the barriers.

I used to say, I will make my class the least restrictive environment. Tell me the barriers in here, and we’ll eliminate them. I want every kid to be part of this classroom.

So inclusion is tricky. It’s technically the time of day the kid is enrolled. But that’s a low bar. It’s like inviting everyone to a dinner party, but some kids get only a leaf of lettuce and a glass of water. Yes, they’re included, but not participating.

Inclusive practice is designing the space so every student gets what they need while working toward the same goals as everyone else. What’s necessary for some should be available to everyone as universal accommodations. If you’re embracing universal accommodations, you can create a class that is the least restrictive environment for all students. I work with schools moving toward inclusive settings because they’ve removed restrictions through inclusive practice.

Tim Villegas
I’ve heard people say something I’d like you to respond to because I think it goes against what you’re talking about. What I’ve heard is: okay, well, for Johnny, who is in third grade and he’s in an autism‑only class, inclusion for him is being with peers who are just like him. He feels accepted, he has friends, and they modify for the kids in that class. That’s inclusion for him. He likes it, he wants to be there, his parents want him to be there. So inclusion for him is there. Inclusion for Sally is that she’s in gen ed 100% of the time and that works for her. Have you ever heard that argument?

Katie Novak
I have heard that argument, and I honestly think it goes back to the fact that the system is not truly inclusive. I don’t blame a parent. Let’s say that Johnny was included in first grade and it was awful.

Tim Villegas
Mm‑hmm. Right, yeah.

Katie Novak
It was a terrible year for the kid, a terrible year for the family. The teacher was frustrated and overwhelmed. There were no connections. As a parent who believes deeply in inclusion with a child who has support needs and is fully included, I would never try to convince a parent to return their child to that kind of setting, because “being included” wasn’t inclusive. We have to say, you’re right. That did not meet Johnny’s needs. What he’s experiencing now might be better than that, but we can do better.

Ultimately, we want to create a space where all students see themselves as general education students, because they are. And the benefit isn’t just for Johnny. The benefit is for everybody. People talk about inclusion like it’s something we do “for” a student. I talk about my daughter Alyn—she’s a rock star. The truth is, everybody loses out if she is not included because she thinks differently, she is kind, she stands up for what’s right. Some people call that dysregulation, but if she sees something wrong, she’ll call it out.

We know diverse groups are more successful in workplaces than groups with groupthink. If we know we’re more productive with people who are different from us, we should create spaces where that happens. But again, some families have put faith in a system that failed them, and they’re scared.

The diffusion of innovation tells us there are people more risk‑averse than others. If we say, hey, we’re going to do inclusion right with teachers who opt in, with amazing training, high‑quality instructional materials, co‑teaching with real common planning time, instructional coaches, early adopters—if you give them what they need, you will have a demonstration of impact. Evidence is clear: when it is done well, it is better for kids.

There was a recent Hechinger Report article with a clickbait title like “Inclusion is bad.” I wrote a letter to the editor. They didn’t respond. But one line in the study basically said: there’s nothing special about putting a kid in a general ed room, which is true—we all know that. It’s an argument for what we’re talking about.

Tim Villegas
Please do.

Katie Novak
He says special education services need to be provided in addition to an excellent, inclusive general education. If we can’t provide both, some students may have better outcomes in self‑contained settings—because of flaws in general education, not flaws in special ed services.

He writes that school leaders are in a tough spot deciding whether to invest in improving general education or refining interventions outside the classroom. People are torn. If the classroom isn’t the least restrictive environment yet and you put a kid in, there’s potential harm. That’s true. But there’s also a risk to saying we won’t include them because it is the least restrictive environment.

So I agreed—we need to talk about what makes inclusive practice effective. There’s nothing special about just inclusion and moving the seat. There’s nothing special about special education. It’s the quality of those two things working together that matters. And that goes back to my systems beef.

Tim Villegas
Yes. Inclusion versus inclusive practice. The article is about priorities. They’re in a tough spot but they have to choose. If they don’t choose, neither specialized programs nor general ed will get better. I’d say invest in general ed because the stronger general ed is, the better for everybody.

Katie Novak
I say invest in both of them. Let’s get an influx of moolah and make it rain.

Tim Villegas
Yeah, lots of money. Please.

Katie Novak
Katie for Education Secretary.

Tim Villegas
Let’s talk about inequities. You’ve said UDL can help dismantle some of these inequities. UDL is not the goal, but how can UDL be a tool for equity?

Katie Novak
I wrote Equity by Design with my dear friend and colleague Mirko Chardin. We define equity the way Washington State does when evaluating principals. Equity in education includes four things.

First: access to general education classrooms with peers. Do all kids have the same chance of ending up in general education classrooms? We know the answer is no. Students with disabilities, students who are level‑one multilingual learners—they don’t have the same access.

Second: once they have access, do they have the same opportunities as peers? Not sitting in the back with another educator doing something different. True shared learning.

So, placement and participation.

Third: do all kids have access to teachers with the highest expectations? Highly qualified educators who believe all kids can succeed. High expectations, personal teaching efficacy, collective teaching efficacy. Look at John Hattie’s visible learning—nothing touches teachers with high expectations.

Fourth: do all kids report the same levels of hope and belonging?

We have to ask: Who is included and who isn’t yet? Once they’re included, are they getting the same opportunities? Are they accessing the highest levels of thinking, grade‑level learning, deeper opportunities? The Opportunity Myth shows most work in American classrooms is below grade level. Even students in the same room aren’t getting the same level of challenge.

And when we talk to kids, it’s heartbreaking. In a recent study, kids described school with 75% negative words. They don’t feel school is for them or aligned to their interests. Many don’t feel they belong. Many aren’t accessing excellent teaching. And our national LRE rate is still only about 67%, meaning almost 4 out of 10 students with documented disabilities don’t have a placement with their peers yet.

Tim Villegas
Wow. Yeah.

Katie Novak
Yet.

Tim Villegas
Wow. So you mentioned—was it four things? Placement… and I’m not going to remember them.

Katie Novak
Yep. It’s placement, shared participation, high expectations, and belonging and hope.

Tim Villegas
And so are those—is that like a Novak Education thing?

Katie Novak
No, because it actually came from a Washington State administrative principal evaluation. And we loved it so much.

Tim Villegas
Washington State. That is… well, because a lot of times we talk about participation and learning. Now I’m going to forget it—membership, membership, participation, and learning. MPL. There you go.

Katie Novak
Yeah, and then there’s Shelley Moore. Shelley Moore also has the five P’s of inclusion, which are very similar, and beautiful.

Tim Villegas
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I really like the way you mentioned it because it was nice to hear in a different way. I’m used to hearing it with those particular words. Especially high expectations. What I’m hearing you say is that that is a huge factor in student learning—if the teacher actually believes in the students. And while curriculum and pedagogy change and ebb and flow, if you have an educator who believes in their students, that could be the thing that really makes a difference in a learner’s life. Yeah.

Katie Novak
Yeah, absolutely. My life was changed by an excellent teacher. People assume that because I care so much about education and I have a master’s and a doctoral degree that I was great at school. I was absolutely not. I was lowest level, tracked low, C’s‑get‑degrees. My kids joke, C’s get degrees and D’s get your doctorate, because they’ve seen my early transcripts. They’re like, 45 out of what for chemistry? And I’m like, 100. Yep. That was great.

Forty‑five out of 100. And clearly I’m very capable. I just didn’t show it in the right way early enough. I was with the motliest crew ever. I got all the way to my senior year and met this teacher. This was a crew, let me tell you. My best friends from high school, who I still talk to today—none went to college. It wasn’t a group people expected to do anything, and those beliefs become realities.

The teacher, Mrs. Krauss—I’ve written about her in multiple books—was like: you have three good options here: work, military, college. We’re all like, college? It was like a bad 80s sitcom. So she said we’d prepare for all paths. She found alumni in every military branch. She brought in recruiters. We went on field trips. We learned about benefits and challenges. For work, we filled out job applications, built résumés, did interviews. She brought in local businesses. And we filled out college applications, practiced college interviews, talked to guidance counselors, learned financial aid.

Early in the year, we had to write a college essay. I’ve always loved writing—I have notebooks of bad love poetry. I wrote the essay. She took me aside and said my writing was brilliant. Not technically—probably incomplete sentences—I’m a poet. She said, this is great. I looked at your transcript. You’ve never been challenged. It’s shocking no one saw this brilliance in you. You’re going into honors.

This was a double bump: AP, honors, CP1, then CP2—me, in CP2, with the dregs of society. She said I was going into honors. I said, I don’t want to hang out with those losers. I don’t want to be in honors. But she had already called Tom and Kat, so it was cooked.

The best way to describe it is like The Wizard of Oz going from black‑and‑white to color. Anyone who wants to tell me a low‑level class is as good as an honors class—I can say from experience that’s incorrect.

Tim Villegas
Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Novak
It was a better education. It wasn’t “prepare for jobs.” It was: how do we want to do this drama unit? Someone said, we should do one‑act plays, write a grant, go to the elementary school, and put them on. She said, great idea. Then kids would say, can we go outside today? And she’d say, I love that idea. I said, you can’t let us outside, people are going to smoke. And she said, they don’t smoke. It was a different world.

Jean Anyon’s hidden curriculum—the idea that the curriculum for some is richer than for others—was on full display. This wasn’t “if you ever go to college.” It was: you are going to college. You will be successful. We trust you. That trust changed my life. And I was so mad. I was like, this is what they’ve been doing for eight years? We’re in rows doing worksheets.

Work and military are brilliant pathways, but they should be available to every kid at every level. AP students should know military is a respected pathway. Everyone should know all options.

The system has such a stick up its you‑know‑what about what some kids deserve. Instead of: these are all incredible options for everyone.

So I applied to University of New Hampshire. I didn’t get in. I got wait‑listed, then got in. I went in guns blazing. Like, I’m smart, everyone. Maybe I had to work harder because of lagging skills, but I was determined. I wanted to be a teacher like Mrs. Krauss. I wanted to end this.

Highlight of the story: I become a teacher. I love it. I write UDL Now. I write more books. In the acknowledgments I thank Mrs. Krauss. I track her down—she’s retired. I say, we have to go to dinner. I bring a gift. My sister comes. I’m fangirling. I give her the book. I say, thank you, you changed my life. She says, what did I do?

Tim Villegas
Hmm.

Katie Novak
She has no memory of it. I say, I wrote the essay. She remembers the essay. I feel like the greatest poet of my generation. She remembered the essay 20 years later. I tell her she put me in honors. She has no memory. I’m like, Mrs. Krauss… Then I wonder if I made it up. A false memory? Should I do a public records request?

Tim Villegas
A false memory.

Katie Novak
She asks questions: what year did you graduate, who was the principal? Then she says, oh my gosh, yeah… I hated that principal. She says she used to do that all the time. I say, what? She says she hated the tracking system. Every year she’d say, let me bust it up. Let me have an inclusive class. They always said no. So every year she’d choose a couple kids—subtext: kids she thought would be successful—and sneak them in. If Katie Tibideaux can step up, she’d say…

Tim Villegas
Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Katie Novak
I nearly vomited. She laughed. I laughed. She said, I remember your writing. It was brilliant. But it hurt that I couldn’t do it with everybody. Eventually I did. She talked about diffusion of innovation—if you pull enough kids and show they rise, others will join.

One teacher with high expectations changed my whole life. A lot of times I say to teachers: be Mrs. Krauss. She had no evidence I’d be successful. But it was less dangerous to put me in honors than to keep me where I was.

Tim Villegas
Wow. Wow. That was great. Thank you for that.

Katie Novak
Yeah. Isn’t that crazy though? It was like an accident.

Tim Villegas
Oh my gosh. Yes, yes. You too can be Mrs. Krauss. Yes. Just believe in your students. Take the least dangerous assumption. Wow, thank you so much for sharing that. That was amazing. I love that.

Katie Novak
Yeah. I mean, it’s literally the story of my life. I still think about her all the time and wonder where I would be. I don’t think I would have gone into education. Who knows?

Tim Villegas
Yeah. You were the starfish that she threw back into the ocean. Oh my goodness. Awesome. Well, we are almost out of time, so I want to do—I’d have you on every week if I could. Okay, two things.

Katie Novak
Yes, Chicken Soup for the Soul. I love that. That was basically the quality of my writing back in the day. Mushy‑gushy. You’re going to have to invite me back for number four sometime.

Tim Villegas
Number one, please tell our audience where they can find all of your stuff—your books, website, social media, The Education Table, all that. Then I’ll save the last one for the end. Go ahead.

Katie Novak
I’m very easy to find. My website is Novak Education—N‑O‑V‑A‑K Education. You’ll see links to the blogs, the podcast, all of the books. I also have an amazing team that I work with. If you click on About Us and Meet the Team, we have people who specialize in early education, higher ed, and working with districts to really disrupt and change systematically what’s happening with special education, aligned with FAPE and LRE—all of the laws surrounding special education. If you’re thinking, we would love help with this work, I have an amazing team of like‑minded, spunky, brilliant educators. We love working with schools and districts.

Tim Villegas
Before we get into the mystery question, let’s take a quick look back at what we’ve covered today. We explored why high expectations can change a student’s life, and Katie shared her own story of a teacher who believed in her and how that moment shaped her entire career.

Now it’s time for one of my favorite parts of the show, the mystery question—and this one comes straight from my daughter. It’s a fun one. If you could disappear for 24 hours, what would you do? Stick around. Katie’s answer might surprise you.

Tim Villegas
Awesome. Thank you so much. Okay, so the last part of the episode is the mystery question. I don’t think you had the mystery question last time you were here. So the mystery question is written by my 12‑year‑old. She’s probably our biggest fan. She listens regularly.

Katie Novak
Oh my gosh, I’m so excited. Okay. Hey, girl.

Tim Villegas
She would always ask about the mystery question. She said, “Hey, can I write some mystery questions for you?” I said, yes, please. She’s written a bunch. I’ve only got a couple left. I’ve got to have her write some more. So I’m going to select the mystery question, read it, and then we’ll both answer it. Okay, here we go.

If you were invisible for one day, what would you do? And in parentheses: fully, you cannot appear.

Katie Novak
Yeah. Okay, I love it. I like the subtext.

Tim Villegas
You absolutely cannot appear. And let’s say 24 hours. So if you were invisible for one day, what would you do? There are no rules.

Katie Novak
Can I pick the day? Part of me wants to say I’d be around people to hear what they say about me, but I’d prefer not to know that. Only if you’re going to say good things. I don’t want to be like, ugh.

I love a deep conspiracy theory. So, on the day the CIA or FBI is having a big meeting—something like Roswell, or JFK, or are we living in The Truman Show right now? I want to see the agenda in the most top‑secret meeting. I can’t ruin my self‑image, and I can keep a good secret—I’m a vault. I want to know the actual truth in one of those big historical mysteries. Bermuda Triangle. Roswell. What is the story? We’ve been promised leaks; we get nothing. So I’m going in to get that information.

Tim Villegas
We’re promised. Yes. Nothing.

Okay, I like it. I like it. Yeah, I was thinking government. Maybe if I could spend 24 hours in the Oval Office, being a fly on the wall. But I’m reconsidering because I love public radio—NPR, PBS. I’m a geek for all things public radio. I’d love to be somewhere they’re crafting scripts, doing interviews, wandering around without being noticed, just observing people in their natural habitat. That would be fun. And I could do that any day, honestly.

Katie Novak
Yeah, I mean, you might not even need to be invisible. You could probably just ask to show up.

Tim Villegas
They’d be like, who is this guy? And I’m wearing my WABE public radio NPR hat for Atlanta.

Katie Novak
Yeah. I’ve worked with PBS Learning Media here in Massachusetts, and they are wonderful. Wonderful.

Tim Villegas
No doubt. No doubt. That’s amazing. Thank you for indulging me with the mystery question—and my daughter.

All right. Katie Novak, once again, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast. We appreciate your time.

Katie Novak
No, I love this. It’s my favorite part. So good. Thank you. Can’t wait for number four.

Tim Villegas
You—

Tim Villegas
That was Katie Novak. Here is what I’m taking with me. UDL isn’t the goal; it’s the tool that helps us create equity when we design for all learners. And high expectations—they are not optional. They are transformative.

Here’s one practical step for educators: start by asking, what barriers exist in my classroom? And how can I remove them so every student can work toward the same goal?

Share this episode with a colleague who’s building inclusive schools. Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and follow Think Inclusive wherever you get your podcasts.

Shout out to all the hardworking moms making the holiday season special for your families—and especially to my wife, Briahnna, for always coming up clutch making sure everyone is taken care of. Your hard work and dedication are appreciated.

Do you have someone you appreciate? I’d love to know who that person is. Email me at tvillegas at mcie.org.

Now let’s roll the credits.

Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I write, edit, mix, master—I wear all the podcast hats and baseball caps. This show is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, with scheduling and extra production help from Jill Wagoner.

Our original music is by Miles Kredich with extra vibes from Melod.ie. Big thanks to our sponsor, IXL. IXL.com slash inclusive for more.

Fun fact for today: December is one of the most inclusive months of the year around the world. People celebrate Christmas, Winter Solstice, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Las Posadas, Bodhi Day, and International Human Solidarity Day all in the same month. It’s a great reminder that classrooms can reflect this diversity by inviting students and families to share their traditions. When we do that, we turn the season into a celebration of belonging for everyone.

Are you celebrating one of these traditions this December? Let me know about it. Email me at tvillegas at mcie.org. I read every single message. If you made it this far, you’re officially part of the Think Inclusive inclusion crew.

Want to help us keep moving forward with inclusive education? Head to mcie.org and click the donate button. Give five, ten, twenty dollars. It helps us partner with schools and districts to move inclusive practices forward and support educators doing the work.

Find us on the socials almost everywhere @ThinkInclusive. Thanks for hanging out, and remember: inclusion always works.