From Teacher to Researcher: Lessons on Inclusion from Melissa Defayette ~ 1014

Tim Villegas
I have been told that I should cut down the time of my cold open so we can get to the interview quicker. Maybe.

My name is Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. And you are listening to Think Inclusive, a show where with every conversation, we try to build bridges between families, educators, and disability rights advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education, and what inclusion looks like in the real world. You can learn more about who we are and what we do at MCIE.org.

For this episode, I speak with Melissa Defayette, who is a third-year PhD student at the University of Maryland. She achieved candidacy in the fall of 2022. Her research is focused on creating and implementing mathematics interventions for students with moderate to severe disabilities to be used in general education settings, while aligned to grade-level content. She has co-authored three articles with the research team led by her advisor, Dr. Yakubova.

Melissa and I discuss what it is like being on the research side versus the classroom teacher side of education, why it’s so hard for general education teachers to want to change their mindset regarding students with extensive support needs, and how her inclusion journey started in middle school. And just a quick note that our interview was recorded in early 2022. Thank you so much for listening. And now my interview with Melissa Defayette.

Tim Villegas
Melissa, welcome to the Think Inclusive podcast.

Melissa Defayette
Hi, Tim, thank you for having me.

Tim Villegas
So I’m excited about talking about your inclusion journey. I first heard your story at the TASH conference in December of 2021. You gave a TASH talk along with a number of people. I wanted our listeners to hear it as well. But before we get into your story, would you just introduce yourself and your role to our audience?

Melissa Defayette
Sure. So as you stated, my name is Melissa Defayette. I was a special education teacher for about seven years in the State of Maryland, which provided me with practical experience working with students with moderate to severe disabilities, fellow teachers, and advocating to create inclusive educational programs for all students. While I worked with my administrative team, MCIE—the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education—as you know, Tim, and collaborated with my fellow teachers, I realized that I needed to educate myself further to increase my personal advocacy, education, and collaborative skills in order to support fellow teachers as we implemented inclusive practices.

So about two years ago, I received an email from the special education department of my county with a flyer from my university stating that you could apply for a fellowship to get a PhD in special education. As a result, I’m currently a second-year PhD student hoping to advance to candidacy this summer and start my actual research studies. I hope to eventually influence special education policy, new teacher preparation programs, or even work at a state or county level to increase inclusive education for all students.

Tim Villegas
How was the move from teaching to now being in this fellowship?

Melissa Defayette
It’s so interesting because when you’re a practitioner in classrooms and you’re doing the work, you feel like the academic community or the research side doesn’t quite understand what you’re going through as a practitioner. But in academia, on the researcher side, I’ve come across people who feel as though the practitioners are not using the information and the evidence-based practices that they have determined to be most effective in the classrooms.

So I’m kind of in between the two groups because I can apply my practical experience to the academic world. It’s very interesting. Definitely a shift.

Tim Villegas
Yeah, that is interesting. Especially for people who are advocating for inclusive education because if you’re in this world, you know that inclusive education, from a research perspective, is the right thing to do and has had an evidence base for decades, right?

Melissa Defayette
Absolutely. What I’m really interested in for that inclusive education piece, though, is that we have a huge evidence base and tons of research studies that expound on the benefits of social and communication skills and interactions for students with high or complex support needs. But we do not have as wide a range of a research base for students to achieve academically in core content skills.

So that’s what I’m writing my synthesis on: What are we using to increase academic achievement in students with moderate to severe disabilities in inclusive settings? And are they evidence-based practices?

Tim Villegas
Does your research focus on assessment at all, like the state alternate assessments?

Melissa Defayette
It does, in the sense that I want to focus on students with moderate to severe disabilities because I feel like this population of students all too often can be viewed by educators or administrators or peers as hard or difficult to include in a general education setting.

For research purposes, I’ve defined students with moderate to severe disabilities as having an IQ score of less than or equal to 60, low adaptive scores on assessments, and/or both, to take the state’s alternate assessments. Because a lot of times some of these studies I find are not including that population. IQ scores are not the end-all-be-all of cognitive ability; it has to be combined with adaptive skills and other things. So, in that way, I’m including assessments.

Tim Villegas
Yeah, I guess that was ultimately my question because as an educator, those were my students when I was a special education teacher. One of the things I always questioned was with the alternate assessment and alternate standards. It was framed as these standards, even though they’re modified, are aligned to grade-level standards in the general curriculum.

So you would think that if a student was included in a general education class, well, here you go, here’s the modification. We’re working on learning about a cell body, and then you look at the alternate standards and you’re like, okay, you really only need one piece of this standard. So part of that work that educators say is so hard is already done for you.

And so my thinking was, oh, well, this will make it easier to include students. But what actually happened was, “Oh, see, these students require so much modification. They don’t belong in here.”

Melissa Defayette
I do know what you mean. That’s why I wanted to further my education because I knew that personally, I can edit, modify, accommodate, support whatever the other teacher’s lesson or content is if I have it in time. But I feel like I didn’t have enough of a base on research knowledge to advocate better.

Sometimes my personal style is, “I don’t know why we’re talking about this. I’m just asking you to include students.” Right? Like, sometimes that’s just how I feel: Why do we have to talk about it? They’re just kids coming to your classroom. You already have a bunch. So I was like, I need to get a little better at that and be able to say, “Based on research…” So that’s what I’m working on.

Tim Villegas
Well, now I’m interested. Now you have to say it.

Melissa Defayette
Can it be edited out? Or you can make me fix it?

Tim Villegas
Why don’t you say it and then maybe we can work on how you can say it diplomatically.

Melissa Defayette
I have found that in personal experience, general education teachers, when presented with the idea of including students who may traditionally not have been included in their classrooms, and specifically general education teachers who may have an extended career, tend to be more resistant to either students who are different than what they’re accustomed to or changing their content.

Sometimes you come across somebody who’s like, “We absolutely, positively have to meet these standards. So we have to go at this pace. I’ve done it this way for five years.” Okay, well, that’s not really how it should be done, but okay. So that becomes a bit of a hurdle.

Tim Villegas
Yeah, like, how do you get around that mindset? Because I think that in a general education setting, if I’m a general education teacher and my goal is for students to achieve at a certain level—let’s call it high expectations—they’re going to achieve grade-level standards, do well on state tests, and district assessments.

And then you have students who learn at a slower pace. That threatens your expectation of your class.

Melissa Defayette
I think that’s a great observation. It kind of leads me back to some of the ideas I’m gathering and want to consider for the future of inclusion. Teachers are held to teaching particular content standards and curriculum requirements based on grade-level expectations and standardized assessments, whether it’s county level, state level, whatever.

But why are we pushing all students to achieve a standard? Why are we not pushing all students to demonstrate growth toward a predetermined target?

This is where my interest in policies and procedures falls in. Why are we treating education like you have to reach this finish line to say that you are educated or knowledgeable or ready to enter the workforce? Why aren’t we focusing on personal growth and understanding of concepts?

If that means I learn it through watching videos and my products are posters or PowerPoint presentations, while you learn it through reading and writing and your products are essays—why not? Why do we use words like standard, standardized, normal, regular, general? Philosophical question.

Tim Villegas
Those are great questions. I love those questions. You said something—we recently talked to somebody, and they used the term meritocracy. I really had to pause and think, “What does that mean?” But that is it, right? We have a meritocracy. You have to achieve a certain level or standard to even be considered for a particular job. They won’t even let you in the door to interview.

So yeah, I think we do need to rethink those things. I think you’re the exact person who should be thinking through those things. That’s why you have your fellowship, right?

Melissa Defayette
Exactly. That’s what I’m trying to do. The more I TA in a course or talk to people, the more I want to know.

As a new teacher, I knew that I wanted my students to be included. When I showed up my first week of teaching, I got all these, “Oh, Melissa, you’re doing great. I can’t believe you’re a first-year teacher.” But when I started saying things like, “My classroom is on the fourth-grade team. How can the entire fourth grade go on a field trip, but my classroom is not going?” I was told, “Oh, we don’t usually…”

What? You can’t tell me that my students aren’t going on a field trip. I’m sorry, I will file. I had to be that loud voice that was a little assertive, I guess.

Now I’m doing more research and learning more by being in this academic world. I’m realizing that people with disabilities can be paid less on average than typical people. Living concerns are huge. We have the ADA, but there are still transportation systems and buildings that have not been retrofitted or rebuilt.

We’re truly not including everybody as a society. Part of me hopes, wishes, dreams that if we can start inclusive education at a younger age and educate students in an environment where all are welcome and appreciated for all learning differences—because we all have them—we can start to change this societal construct of disability and make a larger impact.

Tim Villegas
What started you on this path toward advocating for inclusive education?

Melissa Defayette
It was in the 80s. I’m in middle school, thinking I’m cool. It was the 80s. I obviously was not. All of them are coming back now, though.

I went to my first middle school dance, and this guy comes up—this kid my age—and asks me to dance. I said, “Yeah, sure. I love to dance.” So it was us and a couple of other people dancing on the actual dance floor.

I literally asked him, being clueless, “Why are you here? How did you get here? This is for a particular grade level within the school.” He said, “I go to school here.” And I said, “But I’ve never seen you.”

When I went to junior high, we just kind of roamed the halls. Your classes were wherever. It wasn’t quite as organized as middle school is now. So I honestly felt like I would have seen this person previously. He said, “Well, I go here, but I just go to a different classroom.”

Later, my friends were like, “He’s special education.” And I said, “I don’t even know what that means.” But I could tell by their demeanor that it wasn’t a good thing.

I said, “Well, that’s not really fair. If he’s getting something special and I’m not, that’s not fair.” I was such a book nerd. I thought, “If he’s getting something special and I’m not, that’s not fair.”

Tim Villegas
Wait a minute. Special? Wait a minute.

Melissa Defayette
I was like, early teen, maybe pre-teen. I was just like, what is happening? He gets to go somewhere else? I’m picturing like he’s got all the books in the world. I loved to read at the time, so I was probably a little awkward, but I was so confused by it.

As I started learning more about it, I thought, this doesn’t even make sense. He’s just like us. He had a head, two arms, two legs—just another kid. So why would he get his education in a separate spot than I would have?

That’s what started the whole process for me, in addition to having a cousin who, as a kid, I didn’t realize had a disability. We used to talk all the time. People used to say to me, “Oh, you’re so nice hanging out with her.” She was just fun. We just got along.

I was not a person who was ready to attend college right out of high school. It took me a little longer than traditional formats, but I ended up where I’m supposed to be, I believe.

Tim Villegas
Yeah, I would say so. That is so interesting. Did you have other experiences like that with that disconnect? Like the more you went to school, or by the time you got to high school, you were like, “Oh, those are the quote-unquote special education kids”?

Melissa Defayette
I think the Education for All Handicapped Children Act was released in 1975. So I started my academic career at the end of that decade and went through school in the 80s and early 90s. There was still a definite, less inclusive experience for special education.

We didn’t really start to look at inclusion and more inclusive experiences until probably 2004 when IDEA was reauthorized. They talked about the least restrictive environment, which was actually mentioned the first time in 1975. They also talked about all students taking standardized assessments and how it could affect schools and their ratings.

So then people started to think, “Maybe we should start focusing more on academics instead of functional skills if some of these students are going to be taking these standardized assessments.”

Tim Villegas
I have this theory about that time period because that is right when 2004 was when I started teaching. My first teaching job was 2004. Other than my teacher education program, I had no experience with special education. I went to private school, so I had no concept of the law or anything.

Accountability measures, No Child Left Behind—stuff like that was in the forefront of everything. Reflecting on it, I always thought that really slowed inclusion down because of what you said. Schools were now accountable for students with disabilities taking the typical standard assessment, and the 1% taking the alternate assessment.

The majority of kids with IEPs were all taking the regular assessment. So it’s like, “We have to do something special or different for these students to catch them up.” My theory—and I don’t know if it’s true—is that slowed inclusion down. When you see those percentages about growth from the 80s to 90s to 2000, we grew a lot in LRE percentage. But then after 2000 to 2010 to 2020, it’s really slow.

Melissa Defayette
I think that’s a valid observation. Definitely something to go back and look at the numbers for. I live in this little research world of mine, so I might check that out.

That could be because there was this emphasis put on special education like we are specially designing instruction, but the problem is it wasn’t focused on instruction—it was focused on location. Location does not equal special education. It has nothing to do with where you’re at. We can all get educated anywhere—museums, the zoo, field trips.

Whether you’re in a general education or a special education classroom shouldn’t matter. Obviously, there are students with specialized healthcare needs who may need a certain location to access resources. But for the most part, we can include almost everybody, I think.

Tim Villegas
Yeah, yeah. People don’t like when you say “all,” Melissa.

Melissa Defayette
I know they don’t. They’re like, “But what about…” And I’ll be honest with you, I have friends who are educators who teach a range of varying abilities in special education, and I have had some very invigorating conversations about, “But why not?”

Tim Villegas
What gives you hope as an educator and researcher?

Melissa Defayette
I have hope in the fact that the United States as a nation, historically, has continued to change its public school system to become more inclusive. We started with young white males. Eventually, we included females. Then we had the Civil Rights Movement, which helped with racial and ethnic disparities. Then individuals with disabilities started getting more educational opportunities.

Prior to that, a lot of people were institutionalized, which is horrifying. So my hope lies in the fact that we can change. If we continue to grow this community of people like myself, you, MCIE, fellow teachers—general or special—related service providers, administrators, and advocates at the political level, we can make this change.

My despair lies in the fact that it’s so slow. I don’t know how to help support huge societal change where we stop asking, “How are we going to include somebody?” and instead pause and look around and say, “Wait a minute, why isn’t so-and-so here?”

Tim Villegas
Melissa Defayette, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive podcast. We appreciate your time.

Melissa Defayette
Thank you, guys.

Tim Villegas
Think Inclusive is written, edited, and sound designed by Tim Villegas and is a production of MCIE. Original music by Miles Credit. If you enjoyed today’s episode, here are some ways that you can help our podcast grow: share it with your friends, family, and colleagues. And if you haven’t already, give us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Special thanks to our patrons Melissa H., Sonia A., Pamela P., Mark C., Kathy B., Kathleen T., Jared T., Gabby and Aaron P., and Paula W. for their support of Think Inclusive. For more information about inclusive education or to learn how MCIE can partner with you in your school or district, visit MCIE.org. We will be back in your feed in February. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works.