Promoting Peer Engagement and AAC in Inclusive Classrooms ~ 1116

Tim Villegas
Hi friends. It’s Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, and you are listening to Think Inclusive, our podcast that features conversations about inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. If you’ve been following Think Inclusive for a while, you know that we talk about the many benefits of inclusive education for everyone. Academics is one benefit, but this week our guests are going to highlight why relationships with peers are often an overlooked byproduct of inclusive classrooms and how augmentative and alternative communication can fit into this equation.

Dr. Elizabeth Biggs is an assistant professor of special education at Vanderbilt University, where she acts as a researcher and also teaches classes focused on inclusion and general education access for students with disabilities who have extensive support needs. She also is an affiliated faculty member of the Vanderbilt Kennedy Center, which is an interdisciplinary hub for research, advocacy, and service focused on improving the lives of people with intellectual and developmental disabilities and their families. Her research focuses on augmentative and alternative communication, AAC, and students with complex communication needs, particularly supporting belonging and inclusion for this group of students by improving social communication, language, and literacy outcomes.

Erin Turner is an educational consultant for the Enhancing Peer Networks project at Vanderbilt University. As a special educator for 12 years, Erin served diverse schools and districts across many roles. She taught both general and special education classes, led an inclusion program, and served as a district‑wide special education coach. She now collaborates with and provides training to educators and school sites to implement the Enhancing Peer Networks intervention.

On this week’s episode, Elizabeth and Erin discuss the importance of fostering friendships and peer relationships in inclusive classrooms. They emphasize the need to prioritize social‑emotional learning and provide practical tools for supporting peer engagement. The conversation also touches on the role of augmentative and alternative communication in facilitating communication and connection among students. The Enhancing Peer Network Project, a research initiative focused on building capacity for friendship and social communication development, is highlighted as a valuable future resource for educators and families.

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After a short break, my interview with Elizabeth Biggs and Erin Turner, and for free time this week, I have a very short rant. At least I’m going to try to make it short. Stick around. We’ll be right back.

Elizabeth Biggs and Erin Turner, welcome to Think Inclusive.

Elizabeth Biggs
Thanks for having us, Tim.

Erin Turner
Yeah, thanks for having us. I’m so excited.

Tim Villegas
I was introduced to Elizabeth… actually, we didn’t meet at the Club 21 conference in Pasadena, but somebody I did meet told me to go to your session, and that was Eric Carter. He said, “You really need to go to Elizabeth’s session because she knocks it out of the park.” So I went to the session and you were talking about peer engagement, friendships, and using AAC or augmentative and alternative communication. I was only able to listen to half of it, but I thought, oh my gosh, I need to talk to you. I need to have you and your colleague on the podcast.

What I would love to start off with is this: a lot of educators listen to Think Inclusive. We all know that a benefit of inclusive classrooms is academic progress, but we don’t really talk about relationships or peers. So why are relationships with peers often overlooked when thinking about inclusive classrooms?

Elizabeth Biggs
That’s a really good question. I think for a number of reasons. One of the things I think about is the history of how inclusion has come to be. We started thinking about inclusion in terms of socialization. It feels like the word that comes to mind — “We’ve got to get kids socialized, so we need them with their peers.” And we quickly realized that’s not our only goal. That’s a small goal. We want to build self‑determination, build authentic belonging, and in the last couple of decades, we want them to have access to the general curriculum.

I’m thrilled we’ve started talking about those things, but I think we’ve lost that focus on peer relationships — that the general education curriculum isn’t just academics. The general education curriculum is a well‑rounded curriculum designed to support students in becoming college and career ready. And how we relate to peers is a tremendous part of that.

So why is it overlooked? Teachers are busy. They’re juggling so many priorities. Even though there’s language in the law around well‑rounded education within ESSA, this idea of being college and career ready, these things take a backseat to academics.

Erin Turner
Yeah, I agree with all those things. I also think in my experience as a special educator and a general education teacher, we have a lot of trainings around unpacking academic standards. There are district‑wide trainings and school trainings and a lot of professional development around that. We don’t get the same focus on unpacking social‑emotional standards, even though they do exist in a lot of states, and there’s often speaking and listening standards. But I think it comes down to time again. Administrators and educators are making impossible decisions about what to prioritize when it comes to teacher training. And if teachers aren’t getting training on doing these things, then it makes sense that they don’t feel as comfortable doing things like being play partners or thinking about their job in a different way that is facilitating friendships in their classrooms. So I think it makes sense that teachers maybe feel less comfortable doing that.

Tim Villegas
Overall, do you feel it’s just that friendships and relationships have been devalued?

Elizabeth Biggs
That’s a good question. From my perspective, I don’t think they’re devalued. The more we talk with teachers, with speech‑language pathologists, with paraeducators… I was just talking with a speech‑language pathologist the other day and I asked that question: “What’s important to you for your students?” Without me raising friendship, friendship came up for her. We care about these things. I suspect it’s more that we think we can’t do anything about it, that we don’t see it as something that can actually change or that educators or adults really have a lot of ability to intervene on.

Tim Villegas
Hmm.

Erin Turner
I think it’s also that we don’t know how to do it in a lot of ways. Thinking about how there’s been a shift to prioritizing social‑emotional learning, especially since the pandemic, it still looks a lot like teaching kids about their feelings and coping strategies and mindfulness. All of those things are great and should continue to happen, but we just don’t know exactly how to foster friendships, how to go about doing that always.

Tim Villegas
So are we able to use fostering friendships as an intervention?

Erin Turner
We think so. Of course, that’s why we’re here. We think it’s an intervention. When you think about whether or not something can or should be an intervention, first: is it a problem? And then, if it is a problem, is it important enough that it needs to be solved? I think the answer is absolutely yes to both of those questions in this case. Over the years I’ve talked to so many parents in IEP meetings or through my relationships with them who have said, “I just want my kids to have friends.” And that’s such a priority for them. What an important part of childhood — it makes sense that it’s so important to them.

While I often tell them we can’t write an IEP goal that says “so‑and‑so will make this many friends by the end of the year,” what we can do is think about all the things that lead up to making and growing friendships — all of those skills and environmental factors. That’s what we’re trying to get at with this intervention.

Elizabeth Biggs
I’ve used the language before — I don’t know if this sits well with other people, but I like it — that we can’t conjure up a friendship. We can’t wave a magic wand and create a friendship. But we do know what sorts of things help foster a friendship, and we know what sorts of things create barriers. Of course we can intervene on those things.

So I think about intervening on student‑related factors, like building up their communication skills and helping them feel safe and comfortable in their school environment. But also environment‑related factors, like: are they even in classrooms with their peers? And when they are, are they this island in the back, or are they actually doing shared activities? One of the things we’re especially interested in are peer‑related factors. We have to support peers in knowing how to be good friends to all kids, including kids with disabilities. That means giving them tools and comfort in interacting with their classmates with disabilities.

The benefit of intervening on friendship or supporting peer interactions and relationships is that these things are the foundation for so many other skills. When you help support a friendship, it doesn’t stop there — kids gain engagement skills, language skills, interpersonal skills, and they develop healthy self‑identity, which is important for all of us.

Tim Villegas
I’ve often heard, as an argument for segregated spaces, that the family or the school district will say in an IEP or maybe just in a planning meeting, “We really want so‑and‑so to have friends. We want them to feel comfortable. We want them to feel like they belong, and that’s really going to happen better in a classroom where the kids are just like them,” like an autism classroom or a classroom for students with intellectual disability or a student who has emotional or behavioral challenges. Do you think it makes a difference? Does it matter whether it’s in a self‑contained, segregated environment or in a general education classroom? What’s your experience with that?

Elizabeth Biggs
Your question makes me think about the different types of people who are in these settings, but also the settings themselves. Should kids with disabilities be friends with other kids with disabilities? Of course. But that shouldn’t be all of their friendships. The reason I feel like I can stand here and say that is not because of my own identity as a person with a disability, but because of listening to people with disabilities who have said they value both types of friendships. They value friendships with other people who are neurodivergent or who have disabilities, but they also value friendships with people who aren’t.

A person with a disability isn’t defined solely by their disability. If they have all these different components of their identities, why would that be the only natural connection point for meaningful relationships? There are so many other aspects of who they are. So of course we would expect that they could form natural, healthy, important relationships with other types of people as well.

As for the setting itself, I’m not at all convinced that friendships happen better in segregated settings. From my own experiences working in segregated and inclusive settings, and from the research evidence, I don’t think there’s reason to believe kids with disabilities make friendships more effectively in segregated settings. There were even some more recent articles in RPSD looking at social context and friendships, and the data are compelling: kids have more relationships in strong inclusive settings than in segregated ones.

Erin Turner
I think the other thing to highlight is the impact this has on peers. We can’t forget that peers without disabilities benefit and grow in so many ways when they have meaningful interactions and relationships with their classmates with disabilities. And if we’re segregating students with disabilities, then that’s just not going to happen.

There’s good evidence that segregation of any group of children does a disservice to all children. On a personal note, as a parent, one of the things I want most for my own kids is for them to interact with, feel comfortable with, and learn from lots of different kinds of kids. Kids learn through experiences and observation. We can teach kids about disability and neurodiversity all we want, but that’s only going to go so far if they don’t get to have actual experiences and relationships with other kids with disabilities.

I get to see some of these things play out in schools when I do our intervention, and it’s so rewarding. I’ve learned a lot from it. I’ve seen kids without disabilities learn things from our groups, like relaxing and being silly in more non‑conventional ways, or learning about the many different ways people communicate. We recently had a couple of students learn to give wait time to one of their peers, and seeing that light bulb moment — “If I wait a couple extra seconds, he’ll answer me, and it’s more fun when we have this reciprocal interaction” — was incredible. It’s fantastic to see those moments and see what peers are learning too.

Tim Villegas
Tell me more about your intervention. Tell me more about your project. I don’t want to say it because I don’t want to get it wrong.

Elizabeth Biggs
Our project is called the Enhancing Peer Network Project. It’s a four‑year research grant funded by the Institute of Education Sciences, and it’s a really special project called a development and innovation project. That means we’re trying to develop a practical and effective tool that people can use in schools across the country.

I like to think of our goal as partnering with schools to build capacity to support friendship and social communication development for elementary‑age students with autism who are either nonspeaking or who have limited speech. We’re integrating augmentative and alternative communication — specifically speech‑generating devices — into the intervention, wanting to help normalize AAC and provide better communication access for students with limited speech.

We have three main components. The first is social‑emotional teaching. We’re using children’s literature focused on topics like inclusion, belonging, diversity, neurodiversity, and disability inclusion. We teach social‑emotional lessons using these children’s books, explicit instruction, and universal design for learning to groups of students with and without disabilities together. We think this forms a really important foundation for building healthy relationships.

The second component is what we call the peer network. That’s a small group of two peers without disabilities and a student with autism playing together. One of my favorite things is that it’s play‑based. We keep hearing from educators like speech‑language pathologists or teachers: “I didn’t know we could play still. I didn’t know this could be part of what we’re doing in schools.” Play is such a good way to foster engagement, and engagement is the foundation of learning. We teach peers “ways to talk and play” — simple strategies to support reciprocity, engagement, or communication while they play.

And the last component, which we’ll start developing next year, is providing more intensive social communication teaching for the students with autism. Together these components — social‑emotional learning, peer networks, and intensive AAC integration — support two sets of outcomes: social outcomes around peer engagement and friendship, and learning outcomes for kids with and without disabilities.

Tim Villegas
Eventually this will be something that educators and even families could look at and use in their schools. Is that right?

Elizabeth Biggs
Yeah, that’s exactly right. It’s a four‑year grant. We’re just wrapping up year two. By year four, our goal is to have a public‑facing webpage with all sorts of resources and materials that educational teams and parents could come and grab. We’re not quite there yet because we want to make sure that the materials we put out in the world have research evidence — that we know they’re actually useful, that we can feel confident about that. But we’re excited to share those down the road.

Tim Villegas
So why specifically the emphasis on AAC? Because there’s a lot of… well, I’m not an expert in research, but I would think there’s a lot of research based on peers. I know in the research, peer support has evidence for inclusion and why that’s beneficial. So why did you feel you needed to bring in the AAC piece?

Elizabeth Biggs
I started thinking about this through work in that broader peer support literature, actually with Eric Carter. That work was so fun. I really enjoyed it, and yet consistently felt like we needed to do more for the students with the most complex support needs.

Think about how much communication and language play into your relationships. It’s not that you need language to have a relationship — I have an infant foster son right now. He’s not speaking, but I have a deep relationship with him without language. So we can relate to one another without language. But as we grow language, the ways that we can relate deepen and strengthen. We can talk about things that aren’t right there in the environment. We can have joint attention on things that matter to us.

Kids who are nonspeaking need that too. Just because they’re not speaking doesn’t mean they don’t have things to say. If we want to help support these deepening, strengthening friendships, language becomes important. That’s where AAC comes in. We’ve got to give them communication access. AAC is a tremendous way to do that. It’s not that AAC is better than speech, obviously, but we know AAC can support speech development, especially for kids with autism. It’s really about getting them access to language right now.

Erin Turner
I think AAC is also a nice way to give a shared means of communication. Often peers aren’t really sure how to communicate or play with the students we work with. Introducing AAC into the groups gives that connection point — “Oh, I can use this.” It gives them a tool to try to connect with each other.

Tim Villegas
Have you ever heard educators or families say, “No, no, don’t touch the device”? When I was a classroom teacher — I taught in public schools for 16 years, 13 in the classroom and three in a district support specialist role — I’ve definitely been in classrooms where a student has a device, whether they’re typing or it’s picture‑based or low‑tech, and a peer comes up wanting to talk and starts messing with the device. And the teacher or paraprofessional says, “No, no, don’t touch it.” So how do we get from “don’t touch the device” to it being a shared point of communication?

Erin Turner
I’ve definitely had that experience too. I think there are a lot of misconceptions around AAC, one of them being that you don’t want to disrupt the user’s use of it. But it’s important to think about it like learning a new language. If a student is learning AAC and nobody around them is using it or modeling it, that’s really not an effective way to learn a new language.

A lot of it is shifting our mindset about how we teach AAC. In the past, there’s been a lot of prompting or hand‑over‑hand guidance or only teaching it for requests. What we’re looking at is modeling it as much as possible, and the student seeing it in their environment all the time and in many different ways.

We recently had a group where the student became a bit possessive of the device — which was great, because he’s starting to think of it as his. So we can introduce two devices sometimes if needed. We’re lucky enough to have the means to do that. I know that’s not always true in public schools, but it’s an option. I think it’s a big mindset shift about how AAC is taught.

Elizabeth Biggs
I think at a practical level, we’ve recommended to teams: if you can’t realistically have two devices and the student has ownership over the device, of course respect that ownership. Just have a low‑tech backup. That can still be an effective way to show AAC as a normalized way of communicating while respecting that student’s desire to have ownership of their device.

Tim Villegas
I’ve seen playgrounds where they have the big board with picture icons. I think a lot of people think that’s a good thing — and I’m not saying it’s not — but it wasn’t a thing when I was an educator. Have you seen that be beneficial, and how would someone practically use it? You’re out on the playground, you have this big board with visuals for communication. Is that beneficial?

Elizabeth Biggs
I think it may help support normalization of AAC. I get excited when I go to a museum and see communication supports, or a restaurant that has communication supports. The more places in our schools and communities that have visual communication supports, the more normalized they become. And awareness leads to access — more parents find out these supports exist.

That said, I think I’m with you: the practicality of a single board in one location on a playground — I can’t imagine children running over to that board in that one spot. I hope we continue to get more innovative. Embedding smaller communication boards in stations across the playground might be one step forward.

It’s hard to carry around a bulky device if you’re a kid who loves to run. There are harnesses and straps, but if you’re a five‑year‑old who wants to play, you don’t want to carry a device. We have a long way to go in creating innovative ways to get communication supports everywhere kids need them.

Erin Turner
Yeah, I agree with all of that. Progress is slow, so any steps in the direction of providing more access are positive. But I agree with everything that Elizabeth said — we still have a ways to go in terms of innovation, and technology is such a great tool for that.

Tim Villegas
Let’s talk about some of the resources that we can share with our listeners. I know that Enhancing Peer Networks is not public‑facing yet; it doesn’t have a website. But are there any resources you can point to for educators and families to use right now in developing relationships for learners with disabilities?

Elizabeth Biggs
Yeah, thanks for asking that question, Tim. We’ve name‑dropped Eric Carter a few times already. His…

Tim Villegas
His ears must be burning.

Elizabeth Biggs
Man, I had the privilege of working with Eric a few years ago in partnership with the TIES Center, which, if any listeners don’t know, is a federal technical assistance center around inclusive education, particularly K–8. They asked Eric and me to develop some resources for their website for broad dissemination around the concept of belonging and around peer engagement.

There are some tools I think you’ll be able to link to pretty easily. The belonging guides are one of the things I’m most excited about. Eric and I have had so many conversations about this concept of belonging. It drives the work that I do. I find it to be a really helpful term — even more than inclusion — because we’re not used to it. Inclusion is something we’ve talked about for so long; belonging is what most of us actually mean. It creates a richer understanding of what we’re really looking for. It’s not dropping a kid in a gen‑ed class.

We thought about these dimensions of belonging that came from interviews with people with intellectual and developmental disabilities about what inclusion means to them. The dimensions were developed out of those interviews. It starts with presence, then moves to being invited, welcomed, known, and befriended. For each of these dimensions, we unpack what it looks like in practice, how you can reflect on it, and how you can support it.

The other set of tools is a series of practice guides — down‑and‑dirty “how do we do this?” guides. We invited some of our favorite scholars doing work in peer supports and wrote somewhere around ten guides: how to implement peer networks, how to implement peer support arrangements, how to implement class‑wide social‑emotional learning. They’re ready for folks to look at and consider how they might support peer engagement in their classrooms.

Tim Villegas
Yeah, I’m looking at them right now and I see one of the guides is about supporting peer interaction for students who use AAC. That seems really useful for this conversation. And I wasn’t aware of the history behind the dimensions of belonging. I think that’s really fascinating.

Elizabeth Biggs
Yeah, one of the early projects — Eric has been thinking about belonging for a long time — involved interviewing people with intellectual and developmental disabilities about what inclusion meant to them in the context of a faith community. That was one of the first places where we depicted these dimensions of belonging. They were slightly different because they focused on a faith community rather than a school, but they’ve shifted and evolved over time. That project was a big part of shaping what these dimensions meant — not just our thinking, but hearing those voices.

Tim Villegas
A faith community is different from a school community, but one of the things that MCIE brings up when we present on inclusion is where it happens. One of the places it happens is in a faith community. There’s school, neighborhood, where you worship, where you work, where you play. So there are all these different places where it happens.

What you’re saying about belonging being such a different word — the vocabulary is unique enough that people go, “Oh yeah, that is different.” I think it’s useful to bring it up.

Erin Turner
Yeah, I think inclusion almost became like a buzzword for a while. I really like the idea of bringing belonging into it because it gives people pause and makes them think about it differently.

Tim Villegas
We get asked a lot about what inclusion looks like in secondary schools — middle and high school. There are a lot of great videos, examples, books, and articles that feature inclusion, especially for learners with more extensive support needs in elementary school. But it’s hard to find stories in secondary. In your experience and in the research you’re doing, have you seen reciprocal relationships be successful at the secondary level?

Elizabeth Biggs
Yeah, the answer is definitely yes. This is actually where I first got to dig into research around peer support and relationships — in middle and high schools. Especially in the context of what we call a peer network intervention and a peer support arrangement, we saw many of those lead to authentic, reciprocal relationships.

One of the interesting things about high school is that it’s starting to become normal to be different. I see an increasing attitude in high schools that feels really useful for our neurodivergent students or students with disabilities: this idea of finding your people, knowing who you are, celebrating differences. Middle school is hard because it’s that transition into figuring all of that out.

So there’s a lot of work still needed in those settings — certainly in elementary school too — but there’s no reason to think it’s not possible, and I can say I’ve witnessed it with my own eyes.

One of the challenges is that models of intervention in middle and high schools are often around service‑learning. Peers without disabilities might take a class that pushes them into the special ed classroom. These programs come from a well‑meaning place — getting kids opportunities to be together — but anytime we position a peer in a helping role, it’s challenging. That dynamic won’t lead to reciprocal friendships.

It’s about helping middle and high school students have meaningful shared activities. Shared learning activities — authentic cooperative learning — and shared social activities. Making sure supports are in place for students with disabilities to be true members of clubs, band, and all the things that form middle and high school experiences.

There are more similarities than we think with the work we’re doing in elementary schools. The things that make a friendship are the same for five‑year‑olds, twelve‑year‑olds, and twenty‑five‑year‑olds: meaningful connection, shared experiences, engagement in shared activities, and time to get to know each other.

Of course it looks different — we’re not doing toy play in middle or high school — but there are authentic ways to help kids connect around meaningful activities.

Erin Turner
My experience isn’t as deep in secondary, but I have worked in middle schools. I think there’s a tendency that as kids get older, people think inclusion gets harder — maybe because of the academic gap, maybe because the schedule becomes a beast in middle and high school.

So I think there has to be more creativity in scheduling and in re‑thinking priorities. We need to keep valuing inclusivity, even when it’s harder. Kids and peers still get something important out of those experiences, but I think people start to think about it differently as kids get older. So it’s about continuing to prioritize it and value it.

Tim Villegas
I’ve seen, especially at the high school level, where they try to have these buddy programs. It really serves as, “Well, we can’t make the schedule work — it’s too hard to include the kids in regular classes — so we’re going to have this buddy program.” There are a lot of different ways you can do that, but what’s your experience? Do you think they help or hinder, or does it depend?

Erin Turner
That’s a good question. There’s such a diversity of programs in this area. I don’t have personal experience being part of them or having them in a school I’ve worked in. They’ve been around a long time and have evolved in different ways.

But I think it’s important to remember that inclusivity isn’t a program. It’s a mindset. It’s a shift. It’s ideally a mindset that shapes our day‑to‑day experiences. No one program can be inclusive or non‑inclusive. Just like no school is fully inclusive or non‑inclusive — there are always elements of both.

All that being said, I think we need to think about a few things with these programs. One is what Elizabeth mentioned — we really need to focus on building authentic friendships. Helping programs or buddy programs can inadvertently reinforce helping relationships, where the peer without a disability thinks their role is to help the student with a disability. That’s not reciprocal friendship.

Another thing is building capacity. If we want students to experience belonging throughout the whole day and be part of the fabric of school life, one program can’t do that. It’s about building capacity with staff and families so that belonging is embedded across the day. A program can help with that, but it can’t do all of it. It has to be part of a broader mindset shift in the school.

Elizabeth Biggs
I’ll add that Erin and I have talked about our own project in this exact way. Enhancing Peer Networks is a program. It’s not, by itself, what schools need to be inclusive. Is it helpful? We hope so, and our data suggest it is. But one program isn’t the answer. It’s about building capacity across the day, just like Erin said.

Tim Villegas
So I have an example to share with you, and I want your feedback. I was fortunate enough to visit Sehome High School in Bellingham, Washington. They’re part of a larger push by the state superintendent’s office in Washington toward inclusive practices across the state. Sehome High School is a model demonstration site.

When I toured the campus and visited classrooms, there was one classroom that was a life skills class — but not in the way you might expect. It was a life skills class for all learners, for all kids. Students with and without disabilities were learning life skills together, planning projects, going on community trips, learning how to do things you want to know when you’re 17 or 18 years old.

It was such a refreshing take on the life skills class. I remember talking with the principal afterward and asking, “When was the shift?” They said they started before the pandemic. Traditionally, high schools will have a life skills class only for learners with more extensive support needs, only with kids who have those disabilities, learning things like how to do laundry or clean. Not necessarily things they need to be learning in school.

I’m wondering if you’ve ever heard of that in your experience, and what your reaction is.

Elizabeth Biggs
I love it, Tim. I don’t know of a specific school doing exactly that, so it’s really cool to hear about it happening in a tangible way. My only frame of reference is how I’m trying to train new pre‑service teachers.

I teach a class on general education access, and it used to be called “Teaching Functional Academics.” We’ve talked a lot about what is functional and what is academic, and why we put these into two buckets. They’re the same thing. We talk a lot about college and career readiness because being college and career ready means having the life skills you’re describing. Of course we want these things for all kids — not just kids with disabilities.

If we want an inclusive world after school, we need an inclusive world in school. It’s not going to magically become inclusive when kids graduate. It only gets harder. I love the idea of universally designing opportunities for kids to get academics and life skills, which intersect anyway.

Erin Turner
Yeah, I love this example. It’s so cool to hear about. It made me think about what we know about curriculum: students learn better when we connect curriculum to their lives at any age. So why can’t that happen for students with and without disabilities at the same time? Why wouldn’t they all value the same types of skills that bring independence and confidence in life? It’s a great example. I’m glad you shared it.

Tim Villegas
Awesome. It was fantastic. I’m so excited for the state of Washington, because they have an emphasis on this.

When we come back, the mystery question.

Tim Villegas
So what was one thing you begged your parents for as a kid, and they finally gave it to you?

Elizabeth Biggs
A boombox. That’s mine. I wanted a boombox. It wasn’t even a big one — just a tiny little boombox. I don’t even know what I played on it, but I wanted to play my CDs in my room.

Tim Villegas
Some listeners are going to be like, “What’s a CD?”

Elizabeth Biggs
They don’t know how good they have it.

Tim Villegas
Alright, how about you, Erin?

Erin Turner
Maybe it’s because Elizabeth said boombox that I’m thinking of one of those portable CD players. We traveled a lot for sports and I wanted one so I could listen on the road. I remember my case for getting it was, “I won’t bother you so much in the car if you get me this.”

Tim Villegas
And they were like, that sounds good.

Erin Turner
Yeah.

Tim Villegas
What about you, Tim?

Well, the first thing that came to mind was the first Nintendo. I think I got it in the late eighties. I probably bugged my parents every day, and they kept saying no. Then they completely surprised me for Christmas.

I remember everyone was over, and we were opening presents. I think my aunt or uncle had given me a small present. I opened it and it was a game cartridge — Super Mario or something. I said, “Thanks, but I don’t have anything to use this with.” Then my mom or dad said, “Oh, you shouldn’t have opened that.” I went to the other room and they had gotten me the system. I felt pretty good. And my kids have bugged me for the same types of things.

Tim Villegas
Elizabeth Biggs and Erin Turner, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Elizabeth Biggs
Thank you.

Erin Turner
Thank you. This was fun.

Elizabeth Biggs
Yeah, this was great. We really appreciate it.

Tim Villegas
That chime means it’s free time this week. I’m going to rant a little bit. Honestly, I was going to let this go, but then a friend of mine posted on Threads and it caught my eye, and then this morning I saw another post from a satirical website and it is driving me completely bonkers. So here we go.

This week — this is from Fox News, by the way:

“The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is facing criticism and concern from both politicians and the public over a diversity hiring initiative that actively recruits workers with severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric issues, and other disabilities.”

“All I ask is that the FAA hire individuals based on who is most qualified for the position and who will best protect our airspace, ensuring that we are all safe,” Representative Jeff Van Drew, Republican from New Jersey, who serves on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, told Fox News Digital on Monday. “That is the job of the FAA. It is not their job to be politically correct.”

Fox News Digital reported Sunday that the FAA’s website details a diversity and inclusion hiring plan aimed to boost diversity, including those with “severe disabilities.” The agency states that individuals with targeted or severe disabilities are the most underrepresented segment of the federal workforce, before detailing the targeted disabilities the agency is actively working to recruit.

Okay, I won’t read the whole thing, but I want to add this quote from someone from a group called Do No Harm, interviewed in the piece — Dr. Stanley Goldfarb:

“Identity politics is creating opportunities for so‑called oppressed groups by lowering standards for entry into those fields and thereby endangering the safety of those which it is designed to serve. Some endeavors simply do not lend themselves to identity politics.”

Okay. Deep breath.

If you are an inclusion advocate, this most likely will make your blood boil. It did mine. Of course we should have qualified candidates working for the FAA. Very simply, the mockery coming from critics about equal employment opportunities for people with disabilities, especially those with extensive support needs, shows how difficult it is to change ableist mindsets and why it can be so difficult for some educators to see the possibility and benefits of inclusive education for learners with extensive support needs.

I don’t even want to tell you this, but since I started, I will: This morning I was scrolling through Threads and saw a post from the satirical website The Babylon Bee. If you know, you know. Here’s the headline — and sincere apologies for the ableist language:

“Delta introduces new short plane for special needs pilots.”

I’m not going to elaborate. I think you get the idea.

Tim Villegas
That’s it for this week’s episode. Love Think Inclusive? Here are a few ways to let us know.

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Think Inclusive is written, edited, sound‑designed, mixed, and mastered by me, Tim Villegas, and is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Original music by Miles K. Additional music from Melody. Thanks for your time and attention, and remember: inclusion always works.

Tim Villegas
Anything else you wanted to share before we wrap up?

Elizabeth Biggs
Oh man, you put us on the spot, Tim. Don’t put that part on there. I was like, I don’t know.

Tim Villegas
It’s okay if you don’t. It’s okay if you don’t.

Elizabeth Biggs
We talked about a lot.