Supporting Students with Disabilities in College: Real Talk with Susan Stone & Kristina Supler ~ 1029

Tim Villegas
Brace yourselves for some real talk. My name is Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, and you’re listening to Think Inclusive, a show where with every conversation we try to build bridges between families, educators, and disability justice advocates to create a shared understanding of what inclusion looks like in the real world. You can learn more about who we are and what we do at mcie.org.

I’m here at the Circle of Friends Coffee Shop in Woodstock, Georgia, recording my intros and outros for the month of June, so apologies for the background noise.

As full-time moms and attorneys, Susan Stone and Kristina Supler bring a unique perspective to their practice. Leading the Student and Athlete Defense Group at Cleveland-based law firm KJK, Susan and Kristina have developed robust special education and reputation management practices. They also represent students of all ages facing academic misconduct and other types of discipline.

Susan and Kristina are nationally published authors, go-to authorities for journalists examining student legal issues, and co-hosts of the podcast Real Talk with Susan and Kristina, which explores student issues and offers guidance for parents.

Here’s what we cover in today’s episode:

• How Susan and Kristina’s work overlaps with educators interested in promoting inclusive practices and communities
• The challenges of providing social support to students with disabilities in college dorms
• Some of the topics they talk about on their podcast Real Talk with Susan and Kristina

Before we get into today’s interview, I want to tell you about our sponsor, Together Letters. Are you losing touch with the people in your life, but you don’t want to be on social media all the time? Together Letters is a tool that can help. It’s a group email newsletter that asks members for updates and combines them into a single newsletter for everyone. All you need is email.

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And now, my interview with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler.

Tim Villegas
Susan and Kristina, welcome to the podcast.

Susan Stone
Thanks for having us. We appreciate it.

Kristina Supler
Hi, Tim. Pleasure being here.

Tim Villegas
I’m very happy you’re here. Let’s get into our questions. How would you introduce yourself to our audience of educators and families? Whoever wants to go first.

Susan Stone
This is how I would say it: Christina and I have built a practice helping students who are in crisis.

Kristina Supler
Working with students and families in crisis, we represent students of all ages across the country. We’re based in Cleveland, but our clients and our students are here, there, and everywhere, including Antarctica. Representing students in crisis means helping students navigate academic issues.

Susan Stone
We work with parents who believe their students aren’t receiving a free and appropriate public education. They’re saying, “No, we need a better IEP, we need a stronger 504 plan.” We look at placements for students with disabilities and try to follow those students along their journey to secondary education.

Kristina Supler
When those students get in trouble at times, when they face disciplinary matters, we handle student misconduct proceedings. Under that umbrella, there’s also the area of Title IX cases. We do a lot of work with students who are going through campus misconduct proceedings involving allegations of sexual harassment or sexual misconduct, whether you’re the accused student or the victim in the process.

Tim Villegas
Our audience is mostly educators who are interested in inclusion—promoting inclusive practices and communities. How do you see your work overlapping with the people listening to this podcast?

Susan Stone
Unfortunately, sometimes we butt heads with educators. We try not to, but it happens. We butt heads with educational institutions because there’s not a person in education who wouldn’t say they support inclusion. I think all of us want to make sure all students receive a quality education.

However, when there’s a hiccup—when students with inclusion require more accommodations or an understanding of the disability, even in tense situations involving student discipline—that’s where the rubber hits the road. That’s where you see: Are you really committed to inclusion? Or when things get tough, are you going to turn your back on that student?

That’s where Kristina and I defend our clients. We say, “No, even if it’s tough, we need to work through this. You can’t just toss our clients aside.”

Kristina Supler
I think some of the tension we have at times—again, we try to collaborate with educators and decision-makers at institutions, whether it’s primary school, high school, or beyond—unfolds with student misconduct proceedings.

In particular, with colleges, we come across universities that hold themselves out as having designed unique programs to meet the needs of a diverse student body, including neurotypical and atypical students. However, when there’s an expectation that all the same rules apply to these students—and sometimes maybe the students don’t quite get it right—we see a deterioration of the idea of support and inclusion.

It becomes more about, “We have the rule, you didn’t follow the rule, thus you need to be disciplined.” We find that at odds with the idea of inclusion.

Tim Villegas
Do you have a specific example of how that plays out, especially in the postsecondary or college world?

Susan Stone
Every day we see that situation. Whether it’s a student on the autism spectrum who masturbates in the dorm room, not understanding that privacy is important and that it might offend a roommate—

Tim Villegas
I’m just going to put a pin in that because I’m pretty sure that’s not an uncommon thing in a college dorm room.

Susan Stone
Right. But most students who are not on the autism spectrum would understand that if they’re going to do that, their roommate shouldn’t be in the room. We’ve dealt with sexual issues. We’ve also dealt with issues where students struggle with navigating living with a roommate, and the tension that arises.

One case: I represented a young woman who, when upset, went into a closet in an academic building and had a full-blown meltdown. Instead of trying to de-escalate the situation, campus police were called, and that made it worse.

When you accept a student with a disability, you have to understand what comes with that disability. How do you address the hiccup—whether it’s a sexual issue or a meltdown? How do we de-escalate tension?

Kristina Supler
Another type of case we deal with regularly: Title IX cases involving allegations of stalking. At the heart of those cases is often a student who liked someone, maybe had a crush, and didn’t quite know how to go about it. Or the student on the receiving end wasn’t clear about their feelings and tried to let them down softly instead of saying, “No, I don’t want to go on a date.”

For students on the spectrum who are exploring sexuality and want independence in dating, it’s challenging.

Tim Villegas
So what’s the remedy for this? You’re fighting for your clients, but it sounds like we need to prepare postsecondary institutions. If they’re accepting people with disabilities like autism, they need to be prepared to support them.

Susan Stone
Let’s look at discipline in the public school setting until 18—or for some students until their 22nd birthday. Should a disciplinary situation arise, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act requires educational institutions to conduct a manifestation determination.

What does that mean? Is the behavior a manifestation of the disability? And if so, what can we do to remedy it? Do we do a functional behavior analysis? Do we create a behavioral intervention plan?

Nothing magically changes once you go from high school to college. The same disability exists. So I would advocate for a manifestation analysis to continue.

Kristina Supler
I think that’s something where parents and educators can improve—working collaboratively so there’s an understanding that not if, but when certain behaviors occur, how do we respond in a meaningful, restorative, or educational way, as opposed to just a punitive response?

Susan Stone
And I want to add: It’s not always true that disciplinary situations arise. Maybe it’s a social need. Maybe it’s that student with a disability who’s feeling very lonely and can’t connect with peers. How can educational institutions make sure those students feel socially supported?

Do they have like-minded groups of students they can talk to? Regular students can access fraternities, sororities, athletic teams—there’s a wide range of social opportunities. Those opportunities need to be made available for students with disabilities.

Tim Villegas
Are you aware of an institution that does this well?

Kristina Supler
That’s a good question. I have trouble identifying one institution as a whole that always gets it right. Generally, schools want to get it right and try to get it right. But as life happens, it’s hard to get it right all the time.

Susan Stone
To be fair, we only see the cases that come to us when things go wrong. We see the worst. Nobody calls a lawyer and says, “Things are going great.” So we’re not the best people to ask that question because those cases wouldn’t land with us.

Kristina Supler
What we tell parents who are planning for the future for their child—whether it’s college or something else—is: Ask questions. Push about programs and opportunities the institution offers to different bodies of students. And also press about, “When things go wrong, do you have a particular Dean of Students or contact person who can help triage the situation?”

Tim Villegas
Have you run across any situations with institutions that have an inclusive postsecondary program? For instance, I’m in Georgia, and the University of Georgia has something called Destination Dawgs, which accepts students with intellectual or developmental disabilities. They’re included on campus, some audit classes, and they’re part of campus life. Do you have experience working with clients in those kinds of programs?

Susan Stone
We actually did work with a student with an intellectual disability who was accepted into a program at a nearby university, specifically set up to teach basic learning skills and how to live more independently. It’s an excellent program and does a nice job. Of course, we got the hiccup that we were able to navigate successfully for that client.

We see more and more students finding those programs as the need in our country has developed. Even in the proposed new regulations for Title IX, the Biden administration is sensitive to the issue of how Title IX regulations apply to students with disabilities. There’s more thought about the intersection between higher education and students with disabilities.

But we’re talking about a large umbrella. There are programs for students with severe intellectual disabilities, but then we have students in the regular education setting, possibly high on the autism spectrum. They’re our best and brightest students—they just have more social needs. They don’t have intellectual needs; in fact, they often outpace others academically.

So we have to be careful how we categorize disabilities. Is it a student in a wheelchair, where compliance means ramps and elevators? Is it a student with ADHD who needs extended time? It’s hard to have one conversation because every secondary school would say they accept students with disabilities. The question is: What are the disabilities, and what are the needs?

Kristina Supler
For your listeners who may not be familiar with student misconduct proceedings, at the heart of those proceedings—particularly in college—is the idea that the student advocates for themselves. What does that mean for students with communication challenges? It’s really hard for them to stand up and speak, to advocate for themselves and plead their case.

Even with accommodations, most schools require the student to speak for themselves. Imagine how difficult that is for someone who’s already nervous, embarrassed, and has never been in trouble before. Add to that a student who struggles to communicate—it’s incredibly difficult.

Susan Stone
I agree, Kristina. That was really nicely put.

Tim Villegas
I love how supportive you are of each other. That’s great. I’m just thinking of where we want to go from here. Oh, I had a question: Are you aware of any organizations—legal advocacy or educational advocacy—pushing for reforms in postsecondary institutions to change how colleges support students with disabilities?

Susan Stone
I am not. So I’d give a shout-out to those organizations: If they’re involved and listening to this podcast, and they want to reach out to Kristina and me for input, we’d love to participate. But no, I don’t know of any. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Kristina Supler
Absolutely. Anecdotally, a couple of years back, when there was a public notice and comment period for what we now know as the 2020 Title IX regulations, Susan and I went to D.C. to speak to the Department of Education about the need for disability accommodations for students in Title IX proceedings.

We wanted to address the intersection between Title IX regulations and the ADA because that was a significant issue that wasn’t fully addressed by the drafters. It’s on people’s radar, and education is improving, but we always want to be vocal for the rights and interests of those students.

Tim Villegas
Thanks. I was just curious about that. This next question isn’t on my list, but why is this work important to you? You’re clearly passionate about standing up for your clients. What is your “why” in all of this?

Kristina Supler
In all the various facets of our careers—because Susan and I came to this work from different backgrounds—we’ve always been the voice for the underdog. After I became a mother and had my own children, I became more aware of these issues and their impact. It hit home how important it is to always be mindful of these special students with unique needs and circumstances, and to make sure they’re part of the conversation.

Susan Stone
Working with students, especially those with disabilities, has been a 30-year passion of mine. Early in my career, I worked for a small firm representing school boards. Later, I became a hearing officer making decisions when there were challenges. When I returned to private practice after my kids were older, I decided I wanted to go from the school side to the student side.

My entire career has been based on this topic because it’s compelling to me. I’m a mother first. Early on, I decided my career had to fit within my role as mom. I wanted my work to have meaning. That’s what gets me up in the morning—not only working with my children but treating my clients as if they were my own.

Tim Villegas
Thank you for sharing that. What about families concerned about the transition from high school? In K–12, families have an IEP and legal safeguards. As they move into college or an inclusive postsecondary program, what should they think about? Are there any legal safeguards?

Kristina Supler
That’s a great question, Tim. I’m going to go dark here: I encourage parents of rising college freshmen to have conversations about the criminal justice system. Once you’re 18, you’re an adult. Police and prosecutors are not as sympathetic to disability issues as educators in high school. Parents need to have real-world conversations so that if something goes wrong and there’s police involvement, the student knows how to behave, what to do, and what not to do.

Susan Stone
I’ll be more practical. Most parents and students with disabilities understand that if they want accommodations—which are afforded under the ADA and Section 504—they need to register with the school’s Office of Disabilities. Each school calls it something different. Take the IEP to the office and ask, “Can something like this be implemented for my student?” Don’t be afraid to share relevant documents. Don’t be embarrassed.

Kristina Supler
We see students who want to feel independent and prove themselves, so they don’t disclose their challenges. That’s a mistake. It’s really important to share that information.

Susan Stone
Know what you need and advocate for it before your student gets there.

Tim Villegas
In K–12, some families create a “get to know you” document for teachers. Maybe something like that could help with transition-age students—a cheat sheet along with the IEP.

Susan Stone
It’s a legal document, and schools are obligated to deliver on it.

Kristina Supler
But you’re touching on an important point: open communication with educators and decision-makers. When all the information is on the table with the people who need to know, it can alleviate issues that bring people to us.

Tim Villegas
Are there any specific examples of client wins you can share?

Susan Stone
We see wins all the time. Do we win 100%? No. But we’ve had great results—keeping a student in school when they were at risk of suspension, achieving a better IEP, or a better placement.

Kristina Supler
Or enabling neurodiverse college students to remain in on-campus housing. Housing is a big part of the college experience.

Susan Stone
I miss living in a dorm!

Kristina Supler
Me too.

Tim Villegas
Before I ask about your podcast, is there anything else you want to add?

Susan Stone
I think you’ve touched on all the important points.

Kristina Supler
Nice conversation.

Tim Villegas
So, you have a podcast called Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. Are there any episodes you’d recommend?

Kristina Supler
Check us out on all streaming platforms. A couple of episodes come to mind: one with a mother who spoke about her son’s experience going through the criminal justice system, and another with Dr. Mark McConville on “failure to launch.”

Susan Stone
We also cover current issues and timeless parenting topics like positive discipline.

Kristina Supler
Recently, we discussed considerations for families after the Supreme Court’s Dobbs decision on abortion. We’ve also talked about fentanyl and cancel culture. Our goal is to give accurate information so families can make their own decisions.

Tim Villegas
Fantastic. Please check out Real Talk with Susan and Kristina in your favorite podcast app. How can families get ahold of you?

Kristina Supler
Our website is studentdefense.kjk.com. We’re also on Instagram at Stone Supler, and of course, the podcast.

Susan Stone
You can find us everywhere. Hopefully, you won’t need us—but if you do, we’re here.

Tim Villegas
Susan Stone and Kristina Supler, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive podcast.

Susan Stone
Our pleasure. Thank you for having us.

Kristina Supler
Thank you.