Think Inclusive Turns 13 ~ 1313

Tim Villegas Welcome to the very special edition of Think Inclusive on Giving Tuesday. Today is Tuesday, December 2nd, 2025. I’m Tim Villegas. I’m one of the hosts tonight and I’m thrilled that you’re here. First of all, a really big thank you for all of my special guests and all of the special guest contestants and then everyone who donated to get a ticket tonight. I really, really appreciate it. I’d love to know, how is everyone feeling right now? If you can, if you’re able, put an emoji in the chat and just let us know how you are feeling right now on this Giving Tuesday. While you do that, I’m going to tell you a little—oh, I like that, Diana. Thirteen years ago on November 20th, 2012, that was the first episode of Think Inclusive that was published. Over 200 episodes later, I cannot believe that. I feel like we’re just getting started.

So if you’re here tonight, you probably know a little bit about me and MCIE and my role at MCIE. But just in case, a few fun facts: MCIE was founded in 1988. Carol, I was 10 years old at that time. It began as the Neighborhood Inclusion Project, a collaboration between families and educators to bring students who had been segregated back to their neighborhood schools. From the very start, inclusion has meant more than just placement in general education classrooms. A lot of us have talked about that, about what inclusion means. It’s about belonging. It’s about learning in general education, about learning the general education curriculum and supporting educators to make that happen.

My journey started at MCIE in 2020. So I’ve started my sixth year at MCIE in August of this year. Think Inclusive—thanks, Mark—Think Inclusive has become an integral part of our programming, not just for our partners, but for anyone asking the question, how do we build schools where everyone belongs? I’m thrilled to share that we’ve actually already surpassed our fundraising goal. I haven’t checked the current numbers, but I believe it was 1,300 and I think we were at a little over 1,600. So thank you so much for everyone who supported MCIE. The donation link is still active. Feel free to share it with friends and colleagues and we can give an update. Jill, thank you. 1,720. Wow. It’s actually more. That is amazing. That is fantastic.

We have some amazing guests with us tonight. We have some special guests, and then we also have some guest contestants. So who is here tonight? Keith Jones, my man, Keith Jones, disability rights and justice activist, poet, entrepreneur. You do all the things. Emmy award winner for his work on Netflix, Rising Phoenix. Everyone welcome Keith Jones.

We also have Jenna Mancini-Rufo, inclusive education advocate, consultant, and author of a number of books, including Reimagining Special Education and Conquering Math Myths. Welcome, Jenna.

And we have—need an applause, I need applause somewhere. I don’t think I have, I need like an applause button—Mark Crenshaw, my good friend Mark, Director of Interdisciplinary Training at Georgia State University’s Center for Leadership and Disability and a National Leader in Disability Policy. A Cubs fan. What else? Britt.

Brittany just gave the thumbs down. My good—not to our special guests that he can see you. Mark Crenshaw, lover of Atlanta like I am. Yes. Thank you for being here. Diana Pastora Carson, educator, speaker, and host of the award-winning Beyond Awareness podcast with over 30 years of experience promoting inclusion. She’s a lecturer. She’s got an amazing TED talk about her experience with her brother Joaquin. Welcome, Diana Pastora-Carson.

All right. And then my friend, Andrew McEntrye. Hey Andrew, educator and host of the Deep in the Woods podcast and another podcast that I don’t have off the top of my head, but a podcaster who will be turning the tables and interviewing me later in the program. Thank you, Andrew, for being here. And then also special shout out to Jill Wagoner who’s working behind the scenes tonight. You can learn more about her and her work at inclusionamplified.com. Jill has been helping with scheduling and other production help on the podcast for gosh, over a year, about a year now. Yeah. And I’m convinced that she’s a big reason why this season has gone so well. Thank you, Jill. I appreciate you.

All right. So we’re going to get things ready backstage to get the game going and hopefully I’m going to play a video of some birthday wishes and hopefully this is going to work. Because technology. All right, let’s see here.

Hi, Think Inclusive team. I just wanted to say that I am a big fan of your podcast and I am thankful to have ever been chosen as a person to be interviewed. But one of the things that I love most about your podcast is that it gives me hope on days that I feel like sometimes you’re not making a difference or not doing the things that you wish things were going better. And to all the people who’ve gone before and all the people who are still doing the good work, it just makes me feel so encouraged and that other people are dealing with the same things and not so alone. So I did send a message to one of the Think Inclusive team members the other day and I said, I just want you to know I was going to be an expert witness in an inclusive education case and I listened to your podcast because it made me feel like I could do it and that I was encouraged to do it.

Thank you so much for doing this, for allowing me to be a part of it and allowing my students to be a part of it. One of the things I appreciate most about the Think Inclusive podcast is that just about every author who has a book on inclusive education on my shelf has been featured on this show—from Paula Kluth to Andretisha Fitzgerald to Shelley Moore to Haley Moss and Emily Ladau. And there are people whose books need to be on my shelf that I learn about from the podcast, like Alex Shevrin Venet and Britt Barron.

Thank you for sharing these really important voices and perspectives with us to 13 more years. The decades and potentially the centuries ahead, while Tim’s name may not be remembered in history, nor may any of ours, I am confident his work will be remembered and leave an incredible dent in the universe as Steve Jobs says, that makes the lives of those with special needs, whether they are adults or children, better. Thank you, Tim, and thank you for your work with Think Inclusive Podcast as well as the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Don’t stop. You’re just getting started.

Ooh, almost ended the meeting for everyone. Hold on a second.

Okay, are we back? Okay. All right. Thank you to everyone who sent in thank you, our birthday messages. It was really—I put those videos together and it was like, I don’t know. It’s surreal. It’s surreal that this podcast has made that big of a difference. So I really appreciate that. All right. So it’s time for a game show. Are you guys ready?

Okay, here we go. Ready. Let’s see if this works. Hey, Tim, can you show the QR code one more time? I lost it. Sorry, I’m the bad student. Yes.

Yes, it says you’re still there. Yeah. Ready. Thank you. You’re good. Okay. All right. So the other thing I forgot to have everyone do is there’s like these little, it’s like a little sound card. Like you can press the little emoji button. And if you press the button, it should make a sound for everyone to hear. So I don’t know if you want to try that or not. There we go.

Yes, thank you. Thank you, Brittany. Thank you, Diana. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect.

That’s the applause I needed. OK, so before we start, this is really easy. Just pick an emoji on how you are feeling. There you go. Jen is feeling great. Diana is feeling starry.

All right, here we go. Let’s see, I gotta move my—all these screens out of here so I can see.

All right. Average response is 4.1 out of five. So I think that’s pretty good. Okay. Round one, who said this? And just so you know, I mean, I wrote this script, but it’s going to be, you know, we’re just going to—we’re still winging it. Okay. So, wait, wait, don’t tell me if you don’t know is an NPR quiz show. It’s one of my favorites.

If you’ve heard of it, if you ever listened to Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me, tell us in the chat, let us give us a yes or no, or maybe I don’t know. One of my favorite radio shows of all time. And here has it in, this is how it typically goes. Usually there’s a main guest, which is Keith is going to be our main guest and the supporting guests. And so thank you for everyone that’s being here. And then the host, which is me, will lead us through a series of games. So the first game we’re going to play is Who Said This.

I’m going to read some quotes and then the panelists, all of our panelists and guests are going to guess—it’s a multiple choice answer—on who they think said the thing. Okay. So here we go. Here’s the first one. All right. The primary reason we’re not further along with inclusive education, since it started in the U.S. in the early 1980s, is because we still have two separate systems of education, general education and special education.

And by the way, all these quotes are from previous guests on the podcast. I went back and found these, the transcripts and all that stuff. So, all right, so here we go. These are the options: A Cheryl Jorgensen, B Paula Kluth, C Emily Laudow, D Louie Lord Nelson. All right. So we’ve got nearly everyone picked. All right, here we go.

All right, so here we go. Is the thing. All right. So it’s Cheryl Jorgensen. Who knows Cheryl? Give a little clap or a thumbs up if you’ve ever met. So I’ve never actually met Cheryl in person, but we have had a conversation or two over email and over the podcast. So there you go. All right.

See, so Carol, did you get that one right? Good. All right. Very good. Very good. All right. Number two. Here we go. There you go. See.

It showed the answer. Cheryl Jorgensen. There we go. Okay. Next one. If you ask 10 people on the street, how do you measure intelligence? Bet nine of them would say probably, well, an IQ test. So the challenge I took on was how do you blow up the whole notion that there’s any one way to measure intelligence or at least measure a person’s ability to contribute meaningfully to society? I know these are long quotes, but you know, it’s a podcast.

All right, here we go. Here are the options. Number one, A Guy Stevens, B Alfie Cohn, C Ross Green, or D Dan Habib.

All right, here we go.

All right, we have the majority picking our friend Dan. And it is Dan Habib. Dan Habib. All right, what tipped you off?

You can go, you can unmute. It’s intelligent mind, intelligent minds, Tim. Yeah. Intelligent lives. Yes. Yes. Yes. That whole discussion. Yes, exactly. There you go. There you go. Yeah. You can feel free to leave yourselves unmuted because, you know, we’ll have some interaction and that’s fine. Okay. When the special education department leaves the charge for inclusion, it’s like the ending scene of Braveheart.

When the Scottish band of warriors yell and charge down the grassy knoll, they are slaughtered because it did not actually matter how noble their cause was. They don’t have as many people. They’re going to lose this fight. Who said this? A Michael McShean, B Aaron Studer, C Malcolm Gladwell or D Ira Glass.

All right.

We—Mark Crenshaw is the correct answer. He got it. Mark, did you know that one or are you guessing? And there’s no judgment here. I was, I think, reasonably able to feel like use my multiple choice test taking skills and figure it out. Like it.

So Aaron Studer might not be a household name, but he is the principal, I believe still, of Chime Charter School in Los Angeles in Woodland Hills, California. And that was probably one of my favorite, favorite quotes of his. Hold on a second.

Looks like we have some people who wanted to join but are having trouble. Okay, here’s next one. We’ve been told, we’ve been taught, we’ve believed that children with disabilities need to be in separate spaces and that’s a convenient thing to think because those students then are someone else’s problem, someone else’s challenge. All right, who said that? A Mona Delehook, B Nicole Erdix, C Paula Kluth, or D Julie Costin.

All right, and the winner is Julie Costin. That was from an old episode, but it was one of my favorite quotes.

All right. I really wish that we as a nation in a world were thinking of special education as a service that provided to general ed students who need that service. The law describes specially designed instruction as the content, method, and delivery of instruction requires general education more than at the table. It’s the core of how special ed and general ed are supposed to work in concert. All right. So there might be somebody on this panel that is listed as an option. So A Brad Cohen, B Carol Quirk, C Temple Grandin or D Emily Ladeau.

All right, answers are coming in.

Unanimous. Well, Carol, Tim, when you’re reading that, I thought, man, that’s something I would say. I would say that. And you did. That’s a good one. That’s a good one. I think we’ve all heard you say it.

And it was obviously recorded. So other people could hear it too. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, that was when Carol was on the podcast before I was employed with MCIE. So there you go. All right. I think this is, this might be the last one for the quotes. Anyways, when we stopped trying to be the expert on others, I am not an expert on who you are or how you’re experiencing today or what you went through last night or how you feel in this moment.

What I am an expert on is myself and helping to design this experience so that your expertise and my expertise are not in battle, but that we can honor one another even on days when we aren’t getting along the best and that we have a way to honor one another. Right. Long quote. Who said it? Andra Tisha Fitzgerald, Jennifer Spencer, IMS and the lot or Katie Novak.

Okay. All right. We have the winner is Andra Tisha Fitzgerald. Yes. She was a guest and we talked a lot about this idea of honoring each other and as an educator and learner. And it was a really great conversation. All right. Great job, everyone. All right. The leaderboard. Here we go. Mark Crenshaw.

And Brittany both have five points. Mark, you were a little faster, so you have the top of the leaderboard at this point. So great job. Great job, everyone. Okay. Next. How are we on time? Let’s see. I think we’re good. I think we are right on time. Okay. So this next segment is called Bluff Listener. I’m going to read some stories that may or may not be true and then everyone decides whether they are true or false. Okay, pretty easy. Here we go. I gotta move this, all right.

There we go. Number one, Oregon families fight for full school days in Oregon. Parents like Alyssa Warren fought back when schools limited disabled students to shortened school days. Her daughter, Chloe, who has autism and ADHD, was only allowed to attend school for two hours a week. Alyssa filed a federal complaint and joined other families pushing for a new law to stop this practice. Advocates say these informal removals violate civil rights and deny kids the chance to learn and connect with peers. The fight led to a proposed bill in Oregon’s legislature and it reopened a federal lawsuit showing how parent advocacy can drive real change. Is story one true or false?

All right, here we go. All right. Keith is like, nah, I like it. I like it, but it is true. It is true. It is true. And I do have—for the ones that are true, I do have links and I forgot I was going to share them, but we’ll share them later. Maybe in the show notes of the podcast as it gets published. So all right, there we go. Number one.

Number two, Utah family wins landmark court case. After seven years of legal battles, the Sandy family in Salt Lake City won a major victory for their son, Henry, who has Down syndrome. The school district tried to place Henry in a segregated program without creating an individualized education program. His parents sued and a federal appeals court ruled that the district violated disability laws. The case set a powerful precedent. Schools must assess each student individually and cannot base placement decisions solely on diagnosis. Henry’s family hopes their win will help other children get the inclusive education they deserve. Is this story true or false?

All right. Here we go. It’s true. It is true. It is true. Yeah. And that’s a great story, right? That’s a story that’s worth resharing, I think. All right. Number three, California court reaffirms right to inclusion in California. The parents of a boy with autism known as D.R. fought to keep him in a general education classroom. Despite making progress, the school tried to move him to a segregated setting.

Lower courts sided with the school, but the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed those decisions. The court ruled that students don’t have to prove they’ll succeed in general education to be included. This case reestablished the legal standard. The inclusion is the default and schools must justify any move to a more restrictive environment. It’s a major win for inclusive education nationwide. Is this story, is story three true or false?

I sure hope so.

All right. It is true. It is true. It is true. All right. Do you all see a pattern? Okay, just checking. Just checking. All right. Last one of these. Okay. Oklahoma inclusive classroom transforms students learning. In Oklahoma, an 11-year-old Kellan who has Down syndrome made remarkable progress.

After transferring to a fully inclusive classroom, he now spends over 80% of his day learning alongside his fourth grade peers with lessons adapted to meet his needs. His reading skills have soared. He reads for fun at home and he’s built strong friendships. His mother, Christy Headler, advocated for his placement and worked closely with teachers to ensure Kellan was supported. She credits the inclusive environment and a “let’s try this” mindset for helping Kellan thrive both academically and socially.

Is the story true or false?

Let’s see. True. It’s the Oklahoma. It threw me off. It is. It is. But they got written up in NPR a number of times. And that story is a, that’s a great story. That is a great story. So thank you all for playing that round of this true or false

Tim Villegas And they were all true. I’m sorry. I tricked you. All right, that is not what it should be there. There we go. Round three. Our interview with Keith Jones. What I’m going to do is, there’s Keith right there. I’m going to stop sharing so that everyone can see Keith a little bit better.

Yeah, let’s do that. And then I think I’m gonna pin Keith here.

There we go. So you’re nice and big for everyone. Keith Jones, welcome to a very special edition of the Think Inclusive podcast. How are you doing?

Keith Jones I’m back. How are you? Thank you for having me. Anytime you get around people who you know are doing the work, legitimately doing the work and not just doing the grift, that gives me hope. So I’m very excited about people getting a moment at this time. There’s been no clearer moment as to the what, the who, the why, and the how. So it can seem overwhelming, but I have irrational exuberance about the possibilities.

Tim Villegas Yes. And I feel really hopeful right now, too, especially with everyone that’s here and why we’re here. Just feeling so fortunate and grateful for everyone who has supported the podcast and MCIE and that there’s so many people who want to see inclusive education move forward.

Keith, I’m wondering if you have an inclusion tip. What would be your inclusion tip for teachers?

Keith Jones So my inclusion tip for teachers is something that goes back, I think you and I talked about this here, is the question I ask teachers is, why do you teach? And if it takes you longer than five seconds to answer the question, you get a different job. The inclusion tip that I would hope for is be human focused, be human centered. We have thousands of years of data, but here in the country, we have at least 100 years, 60 years worth of data that says no two individuals learn exactly alike. So if you are a teacher or a professional who chose one of the few professions that they leave fingerprints on forever, you have to remember why you do it. So my inclusion tip: one, remember why you do it. Two, remember that the kids in front of you have no choice and they are literally, you know, putting your hands. And three, if you focus on their humanity and their joy and their talents, they’ll be much more receptive to your education. So those are the kinds of things that I hope teachers do. Remember what they do it for, why they do it, and focus on the humanity.

Tim Villegas Thanks, Keith. I really appreciate that. I’m wondering if there’s anybody in the audience, either a guest or a guest contestant or anybody in the audience that has a question for Keith. If you do, you can either put it in the chat or just come off mute because this is a meeting and you can just say your question. Does anyone have a question for Keith?

Don’t be shy.

I think I have a question for Keith. So Keith, I know you are a musician and I’m wondering if there was any kind of impetus for your musical talents and interests from your school at all. I know you had some difficulties in school with people seeing you as the human that you are. But I’m wondering if there was any impetus of that stemming from school programs and also what would you recommend that we do in order to foster the arts in schools as an inclusive, something that we do with regard to inclusive practices? Such a great question. Thank you, Diana, for the question.

Keith Jones So not to give away the fact that I’m Gen X. When we were in school, we actually used to go to music class, art class, and you had shop and things like that. But again, kids with disabilities, and particularly kids with disabilities, ethnic groups, and particularly depending on what region of the country you were in, there was no encouragement to pursue music. They would during, I guess, homeroom time, okay, we’re going to bring out the instruments and… They would give the kids with the xylophone and then people would bang. There’s a way to use music and art to reinforce the lesson. These are things everybody knows. That’s why you sing the alphabet. That’s why if you say one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, everybody in their mama can finish that song. So I always encourage teachers to be creative, you know.

I’m a son of a teacher. I used to stand behind the desk, so how do you not go crazy making a lesson plan knowing you got somebody else’s kids in front of you and you can’t take them out? But you have to be like, OK, let me make sure you learn. But when music was encouraged, we did get to use it in a very great way because it did encourage students. Some students I know who are non-verbal. But once they got the ability to express themselves, whether through playing a ukulele or xylophone or even rapping. That, one, showed them that their talent mattered. The two showed the educator, maybe I have to get away from my own bias and use a different technique in terms of being able to support whether it’s reading, whether it’s life skills, whether it’s math, whether it’s science, or better yet, just how can I use it to reinforce a positive self-image. And so those are some of the things I think music and art, theater, dance, all of these secondary academics can reinforce the main academics.

I hope that answered the question.

Tim Villegas Thank you. Thank you, Keith. Thank you. I think we have one more. Yes. Brittany Sammons in the chat says, what would you tell your eight year old self?

Keith Jones Well, who? I was 1978. We have outcome butterfly collars will cut you, but I would also say stick to the path. I think what people are seeing now with the realities of the way people perceive the Department of Education, the way people perceive a two track system, especially versus generally, that you will be on the cutting edge of a lot of things, even though you don’t want to be. And sometimes being a trailblazer isn’t by choice, it’s by force. And so I would tell any eight year old, continue to dream. Don’t get bottled up. Listen to your mama. Continue to dream. But also just make sure that you plant your feet firmly in the positive self-identity.

Tim Villegas Thank you, Keith. Keith Jones, everyone. Thank you. I need that applause. There we go. Beautiful. Keith, so good to see you.

Cal, it’s so good to see you. Hey, we got cupcakes. And a vodka. Yes. Yes. All right. All right. Back to our game. Let’s get back to the sharing of this. Share sound. All right. Here we go. Tim, was there going to be a mystery question?

I’m going to save that to the very end. OK. Yeah. But yeah, we’ll get a mystery question that—don’t worry, Diana. Yeah, I’ve got a whole stack. I’ve got a whole stack right here.

Tim Villegas Round four, complete the current event limerick. All right. This was really hard, y’all, and I’m not ashamed that I had my friend Copilot help me with this. So, here we go. These are—let me get back to this. Okay. So, you’re just going to finish the limerick. I’m going to say the limerick and then you just have to pick the word or you have to type. Now I’m remembering you have to type in the word at the end. So if you don’t want to type or that’s, whatever, you can just say the word and that’s fine. All right, here we go.

So they capped all the loans with a cheer, but left out the nurses, dear. Not pro, they exclaimed. We feel kind of shamed while doctors and lawyers are in the what.

All right, submit your answers. Yeah. And then after everyone submits the answers, I’ll tell you what the answer was and then I’ll tell you how we got the limerick. These are all—I should have said these are all education-related current events. Sorry.

They capped all the loans with the cheer, but left out the nurses, dear. Not pro, they exclaimed. We feel kind of shamed while doctors and lawyers are in the what. And it’s supposed to rhyme.

All right, I know not everyone has submitted, we are gonna go. All right, we got clear, clear, clear. All right, the correct answer is clear. Yes, very good, very good. Loan cap controversy, nurses and teachers excluded. Congress passed a new law that changes how much graduate students can borrow. Only students in 11 professional fields like medicine, law and dentistry can borrow up to $200,000. Everyone else, including nurses, teachers and social workers, is capped at $100,000. Critics say this unfairly excludes vital careers and could worsen workforce shortages. The Ed department says most students won’t be affected, but the debate continues.

All right. Next one. The Ed department sent emails so sly, blaming Dems with a partisan cry. A judge said, no way. You can’t make staff say what you want in their auto…

Blink.

I’ll say it one more time. The Ed department sent emails so sly, blaming Dems with a partisan cry. A judge said, no way. You can’t make staff say what you want in their auto blank.

I like the people in the chat there that are playing along. Here we go. Next. All right. So, all right, we got lots of replies. Here we go. And the correct answer is reply. I’m not getting behind me. I’m just not getting it. It’s all good. It’s all good.

Judge Halse-Parson shut down emails. Do you remember? I don’t know. In the news a long time ago, they had those out of office emails, they blamed a certain party of a political persuasion. Well, in October 2025, during the shutdown, the case became a federal judge ruled that the move violated their First Amendment rights. And so the messages were removed. So that actually was news to me. I didn’t actually know that that had happened until I was looking all this stuff up.

All right. Trump tried to break Ed department apart, but teachers said, hold up. That’s not smart. They sued with a shout. This plan will throw out and hope courts will stop it from the blank.

Trump tried to break Ed department apart, but teachers said, hold up, that’s not smart. They sued with a shout, this plan will throw out and hope courts will stop it from the blank.

All right, just a few more seconds.

All right. We got lots of starts and that’s it. Start. Diana, you did it. Yeah, Keith, you got it. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

So the Trump administration began dismantling the Department of Ed by shifting programs to other agencies. A coalition of school districts, unions and advocates sued arguing the move is illegal without congressional approval. They say it threatens services for vulnerable students and undermines federal education protections. The administration insists it’s about efficiency, but we know the truth.

All right. In Cali, some students pay less, which made DOJ cry. What a mess. It’s unfair, they claim, but Newsom’s not tame. See you in court, he said with blank. I’ll say it one more time.

This one might be a little hard. Cali, some students pay less, which made DOJ cry, what a mess. It’s unfair, they claim, but Newsom’s not tame. See you in court, he said with blank. Submit your answers.

Let me see. This is a lot harder than I thought it would be. See, but when you have producers on Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me, they just do it. All right. Yeah, there we go. We got finesse. Beautifully done. Well done. I know that was a really hard one. I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. But you did get it. There you go.

DOJ sues California over tuition for undocumented students. Justice Department sued California for allowing undocumented students to pay in-state tuition and receive state financial aid. DOJ claims this discriminates against U.S. citizens from other states. California argues its policy is legal and inclusive. Applying to anyone who attended high school in the state, Newsom responded defiantly saying, we’ll see you in court.

All right, I think this is the last one of this segment.

McMahon packed up Ed department with flair, sent programs and staff everywhere. We’re shrinking the place, said Trump with a face. And while critics just gasped in blank, McMahon packed up Ed department with flair, sent programs and staff everywhere. We’re shrinking the place, said Trump with a face while critics just gasped in blank.

All right, submit your answers.

You…

All right. Despair, disgrace. There you go. Very good. Great job, everybody. Great job, everybody. So yeah, Trump administration dismantles education department programs. We are reassigned. Obviously critics say this undermines federal protections and bypasses Congress. Supporters say it’s about cutting bureaucracy. But again, we know the truth.

So here we go. All right. Final round.

Thank you so much for playing along. This has been great. What is your bold prediction for 2026? I don’t know.

We can just say Jenna Rufo. You rock it. We got over here. I’m shocked. Jenna, Mark struggling on that last one. Wow. Great job everyone. Bragging rights to Jenna, Mark and Nicole for a three way tie. So very good. Very good. I’m gonna stop sharing, but everyone, we can just spend a few minutes and tell us your bold predictions. I’d love to hear from Jenna, one of our top performers. Jenna, do you have a bold prediction for 2026?

Jenna Mancini-Rufo So my bold prediction, see, I’m not as quick on it on the uptake as I was on those earlier ones. This is like a limerick for me. So my prediction is that we are going to move forward with the work of inclusive education. And I don’t know, I’ve gotten a lot of questions from people, you know, how are things affecting your work and your business and what you do and my answer was it really hasn’t. So I feel like there, despite everything that may be going on in the world, in the country, that there’s a lot of people that are very committed to this work. And I think that the work will continue.

Tim Villegas That’s a great prediction. I love that. There we go. Thank you for the applause. Thank you for the applause. OK, Mark Crenshaw, it’s your turn.

Mark Crenshaw I wrote it in the chat, but my bold prediction for 2026 is that top leaders in federal government go back to school. Wishful thinking there.

Tim Villegas All right. Thanks, Mark. Diana Pastora-Carson.

Diana Pastora-Carson I think that with leadership like MCIE and Think Inclusive, a lot of people, good people, people who think the world of and are passionate about inclusive practices and justice are coming together next year to really be a powerful voice to keep things going the way that we were, you know. Where we were going, it’s not going to stop. We’re going to keep moving straight, you know, bulldozing ahead. That’s my bold prediction.

Tim Villegas I like it. Thank you, Diana. Thank you so much for being here. Keith, you want to have the last word here on the bold prediction? Well, and then Andrew, actually. Go ahead.

Keith Jones My bold prediction is that people will actively stop being stupid. That’s a bold prediction. I don’t know. That’s a hope. OK, so I don’t know if that’s a prediction or a hope for the prediction. But I do believe that with the clarity that this administration has brought in terms of how America really sees education, that my bold prediction is that we will actually get a functioning education coalition that really pushes inclusive education that supports every student.

Tim Villegas Amazing. Thanks, Keith. All right, Andrew, I want to hear your bold prediction.

Andrew McEntrye Sure. I actually sent you a message the other day, a text message. And, just kind of out of the blue and this, it kind of, connected to this, but, it really was just saying that in the schools, I’m seeing the positive changes and things that you guys are doing and saying, and how they’re, pushing into the classrooms and even through the administrations and through the districts. And my prediction is that that’s going to continue to change, continue to go that direction. And I know, I know it will. And I’ve seen how much has changed in my 17 years working with disabilities. And I’m excited to see where it’s—fantastic.

Tim Villegas Fantastic. Anyone else want to jump in with a bold prediction? Carol, I see you.

Carol Quirk Yeah. So, you know, I’ve been encountering educators in the last several weeks who are astounded to learn about what it takes to be inclusive. And they’re very stuck on the lack of co-planning time. So my prediction is, I don’t know if it’s a prediction, but maybe, that educators will need to and will develop a deeper understanding of the dynamics between educators, general educators, special educators, other specialists. And that’s the magic. The time is logistic. But the magic is what happens between people and that’s what they need and they need to be recognized for that.

Tim Villegas I love that. I love that. All right. Any final words? Any other bold predictions that we want to highlight? Y’all, is everyone having fun? I’m having fun.

Audience Definitely. Good stuff. Good stuff.

Tim Villegas So we’re going to take a quick break. I’m going to play another video of some birthday wishes. And then I think what we’re going to do, Jill, is I think we’re going to go straight into the interview with Andrew. Okay, so just prep Andrew. But after the video, Andrew is going to interview me. And then depending on how much time we have left, we may stretch it out a little bit, but I want to honor everyone’s time. So if that’s okay, I’m going to go ahead and play one more video here.

Tim Villegas All right. Hey, Tim, congratulations on the birthday of your show. Your show and my relationship with you has completely transformed the way I think about inclusivity. As a former teacher and principal and now supporter and my own podcast show, I love the idea that inclusion is not aspirational. It’s not novel. It should be the norm. So thank you for transforming the way that I think about creating opportunities for students and happy birthday.

Many, many more wonderful shows ahead for you. So grateful for Think Inclusive introduced me to inclusion giants and experienced practitioners and individuals with disabilities and their families who are all working together to try to build more inclusive classrooms, schools and systems. I’m forever hunting for a pencil between the seats of my car to jot down a brilliant quote or an idea that was sparked by the conversations between Tim and his guests. Think Inclusive reminds me every week that I am part of the diverse community of advocates that is growing and learning together. Thanks, Tim. And Think Inclusive. Here’s to 13 more. Happy birthday, MCIE.

My name is Lisa Aquila. I’m with Disability Equality and Education. I recorded a podcast with Tim on April 3rd of this year. And the best part was when I watched prior episodes and was able to connect with some of his wonderful guests. So I encourage all of you to watch my episode on April 3rd and all the other wonderful episodes so that we can learn how to be more inclusive, especially when it comes to that missing piece in education, which we believe is disability inclusive curriculum. Happy birthday.

All right, thanks. Thanks everyone who again who sent in a birthday message. Really appreciate that. All right. Andrew, I’m going to pin us both here. That way it’ll just be us. There we go. Okay, it works. All right, Andrew, my friend, Andrew McEntrye, a podcaster, educator extraordinaire, he’s gonna, you know, interview me. You go ahead, man. Switch it up.

Andrew McEntrye So first, I want to say about, you know, five or six years ago, I was one of those teachers and educators who was looking for those answers, who was trying to figure out how to break down many of those barriers. And I had a friend who was a teacher who actually worked with you or connected with you and he gave me your name. And that’s how we made that connection. And interestingly enough, the first podcast that you shared with me was with Jenna Rufo in the Reimagining Special Education. So that’s really cool circle to come back to this and she’s here as well. So I ended up buying the book and looking into it. So this is a great experience. But really this is about you, Tim, and about Think Inclusive.

I want to jump right in and again, be respectful of everyone’s time. To start, let’s go to the beginning. As someone who makes a podcast, I recently had someone ask me a question on an episode that said, when you first got involved with starting this process, what were those things you were feeling and thinking as you were beginning this process of starting a podcast and actually coming into this world, where was your mind? What were your emotions?

Tim Villegas Yeah, great question. Thank you. I was feeling frustrated and like inherently I knew what I was doing. For those of you who don’t know my story or do, I was a teacher in a segregated self-contained classroom. All the while I was a classroom teacher. I taught in classrooms like that and I went to Cal State Fullerton for my teacher education, was taught, you know, inclusive practices. And then when I got into schools, I’m like, wait a minute, no one is doing this. And for a while I was just like, okay, it’s different. It’s fine. It’s different. But once I started to learn more and talk with people who really wanted to see change, I’m like, well, what can I do about it? And the only thing that made sense was to try to connect with other people who are doing this kind of work. And so that’s why I started blogging first. And then the podcast really grew out of the connections I made with blogging.

I actually liked making a podcast or doing radio—actually was a lifelong dream of mine from when I, you know, like before I even went to school, like I would, I was the kid who pretended to have my own radio show. Like I had my tape deck and I would record songs and I’d play the songs and I’d be the DJ, you know, be like, okay, you know, and now it’s Guns N’ Roses or whatever, you know, the “Child of Mine,” you know. And even in college, I took a radio production course and I had like a four track player that I recorded a mock radio program, like a morning program, you know, like, here I am at the racetrack, you know, everyone’s getting coffee and, you know, I’m going to talk to this person and, you know, like it’s all—it was just a dream of mine.

So I think with all of that coming together in podcasting was just getting started and realizing like, I could actually do this. I have the skill and the technical knowledge to start something like that. It just came together. And I think, Andrew, I’ve told you this before. When I started the website, I had just put on Google AdSense, you know, like back in the early, you know, in 2012, you could attach—still can—Google AdSense onto your blog. And so I had just attached it and it all worked. And then I wrote an article about the R word and it was like, spent like 30 minutes on it. It was not, it was just, it was not well thought out and it blew up—like hundreds and hundreds of thousands and thousands of views.

And it was because of that and the money that I got from the AdSense was like, was like a few hundred dollars actually paid for like the next three to four years of Think Inclusive on WordPress. And so I don’t know if that didn’t, if that would not have happened, I honestly don’t know that I would have gone any farther because, because I was like, well, you know, like this is all on my free time. So there was no sort of return on the investment. And so that was a sign that was like, maybe something’s here.

Tim Villegas And to see where it’s come, you know, from that time. And one thing I—one part of the second part of that question I’d like to ask just because there’s the same person asked me this and it was two parts. So that version of you back then, what would they be the most proud of you for now in terms of all of what you’ve accomplished, like if they’re able to see from that viewpoint where you’re at, what would they be most proud of?

I think that I stuck with it, because there were many, many, many times that I did not want—I just thought it wasn’t worth it. Yeah. So I think that that would probably be, you know, if I could talk to my previous self, younger self and be like, just keep going, you know. And that’s actually a lot of the advice that I give to podcasters now is, just keep going, you know, just keep doing it. Because the more you do it, the better you get. And then, you know, you reinvent yourself and this podcast has been reinvented many times. You know, it used to be like 30 minutes and now it’s like anywhere from an hour to two hours. So it’s fine. And you constantly get better. And I think that that’s probably the thing that I’m the most proud of is that, at the key moments where I could have given up or I could have been like, this is too hard, this is too much, there was always something, someone, being like, it’s okay. Just, you know, just keep going, just keep going. And so I feel very fortunate for that reason.

Andrew McEntrye Let’s encourage Anna for my own podcast. I think I’ve hit those walls a few times. So I mean, there’s points where you’re like, okay, is anybody even listening? Or, you know, why am I doing all this work? Because as you know, there’s so much extra work that’s required from the post editing to, you know, creating and putting everything out and putting the descriptions together, and all of those extra elements. And you’re like, this job is taking over. And so I’ve asked that question myself, like, should I stop? Should I keep doing it? But it’s definitely something I agree that you just keep going, you’ll find different ways to innovate.

Well, let’s look back over the time. And let’s think of all of those key moments that did keep you going, right? Those parts that you were like, okay, this is the reason. What were some of those moments that you cling onto now, those favorite moments that kept you moving?

Tim Villegas You know, the season seven, I think I’m remembering this right. It’s the season that I started off with when I visited Chime Charter School. So I think that—so when I was learning about inclusion, inclusive practices, and I was very much in my own bubble, you know, of a school district that didn’t have the resources to do what I thought it needed to do. And then just the kind of mentorship that you need to be able to move forward and the reading books and talking with people and all of that was fine. But I had yet to see it, like actually see it in practice.

So when I had the opportunity, went to Club 21, which is a fantastic organization in Pasadena, California, and they—families and educators for inclusion specifically around learners with Down syndrome. They invited me to come speak. And so I took that opportunity. Like, Oh, I’m in California. I need to visit Chime Charter School. I emailed Aaron Studer and I cannot remember the other people that were there. And I visited the school and it was just confirmation that like, yeah, this is the right thing. This is the right thing to do. People are doing it. It’s what I have been saying for so long with people who are like, I just don’t get it. I just don’t understand. I’m like, no, literally there are people doing this work right now, all around the country. And if you could only see it, then maybe you could experience it.

So visiting Chime, that was a huge—that was huge for me because it was just like, well, Chime can do it, you know, and other districts and schools can do it. Then that really changed me. And that also changed the trajectory of the podcast because that was my first entry point to narrative podcasting because that was when I did field recording. I had different equipment. I followed Aaron around the school and I got to describe what I saw and then I followed it up with an interview in his office.

And then being able to craft that story into a narrative piece, much like you would hear on NPR, because that’s like the gold standard for me, was like, I can do this. I can do this. I have a skill set that allows me to think in this way, to put a story together. And I’m like, I just got to keep doing that. And so that season, I feel like I did a pretty good job of telling those stories in that certain way. And it wasn’t sustainable at all, but I did get a taste of it. So that was like the seed for inclusion stories because when eventually, when I pitched the idea to our team about visiting schools in Maryland and in Washington state, that is when I’m like, I can do this. I can tell this kind of story. And so that was a really big moment.

Tim Villegas And that also changed, the trajectory of the podcast because that was my first entry point to narrative podcasting because that was when I did field recording. I had different equipment. I followed Aaron around the school and I got to describe what I saw and then I followed it up with an interview in his office.

And then being able to craft that story into a narrative piece, much like you would hear on NPR, because that’s like the gold standard for me, was like, I can do this. I can do this. I have a skill set that allows me to think in this way, to put a story together. And I’m like, I just got to keep doing that. And so that season, I feel like I did a pretty good job of telling those stories in that certain way. And it wasn’t sustainable at all, but I did get a taste of it. So that was like the seed for inclusion stories because when eventually, when I pitched the idea to our team about visiting schools in Maryland and in Washington state, that is when I’m like, I can do this. I can tell this kind of story. And so that was a really big moment.

I think it was like right after inclusion stories, when you were on my podcast and we talked through—we on the podcast, we choose one word and you chose the word belonging. And we really, really dug in deep there. And I remember I worked in a preschool and you highlighted some preschools that are doing that work. For someone who can’t see it live, it was really encouraging to be able to hear those stories. And the way that you were able to reflect that was a way to say, yes, like as a teacher, someone who’s constantly seeing those barriers, it was like, this is something that is happening, it can be done. So I appreciated that. It was really great to be a part of, to be able to hear those stories and especially in that format, that narrative type style. So I really appreciate it. I know so many people did.

So a few separate questions that are right outside the box of this. So in terms of a guest, think back to a guest that you had that has changed your perspective the most. Like in terms of, hey, this is the way I see things, but they really influenced your trajectory or changed the way you thought.

I have two. And they’re there before I joined MCIE. So the first one is Lou Brown. I interviewed Lou before he passed. And, I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s so much changed, I think my mindset necessarily, but it was one of those watershed moments for me, to hear his feedback about—let me see if I explained what I’m trying to say. So when you are changing your mindset and when you’re thinking about all these things differently, right? There’s a lot of second guessing that is involved. And I can imagine this is kind of what happens with our partners. Like, I’ve been—it’s almost like, no, I’ve been thinking about this all wrong. And so when you speak to somebody that reinforces and validates your thinking, that reinforces and then solidifies your mindset. So in a way, yes, that really changed my mindset. And so that was Lou.

Then, you know, Carol, I interviewed Carol, right, you know, like when was it? It was 2019, I think. And that was when it was like the idea of, okay, you really need to focus on leadership. You need to focus on systems. That was a huge turning point for me because when you’re in the schools and you’re doing—like just when you’re grinding, right? When you’re just grinding it out every single day, like trying to make school a good place for kids and make right decisions, like you cannot separate yourself and see the big picture. And so when I had that conversation with you, Carol, I was like, this makes so much more sense. Like we just focus on talking and changing systems. And I was like, this may—you know, and so I think that that was a huge, like almost relief. It’s like, I don’t have to do it all. Like it doesn’t fall on me. Like, I can do it with people and that’s the whole point. Like that’s the whole point is your collaboration. And so that was a huge turning point for me. And which was the reason why I even reached out to you, Carol, like after, when I was like, I think I need to leave public education or at least my school district. So, so yeah, that was a huge turning point.

And then one more guest, more recent one. It was one of my favorite episodes is when I talked with Danny and Tara Witty, and Danny is a speller, he spells to communicate, and he uses a letterboard. And I had already been primed—not like number one—to believe in this kind of communication because not everyone believes that it’s legitimate. I had already been primed because of Wretches and Jabbers, the film on that was probably, gosh, 2016, 2015. Can’t remember exactly. But even kind of seeing that as a possibility and presuming competence in that way. Then, Diana, you had them on and I’m like, my gosh, I need to have them on my podcast. Will you please introduce me to them? And you’re like, yeah, of course. And so then we had them on and that—like I had already, I was—it’s not that I didn’t believe it, but it was more like, it was such a rich conversation and Danny is so authentic in his communication. It’s just like, how can anyone look at this and be like, this is not real. So that was huge. That was huge for me.

And I think it’s been a focus of mine over the last, you know, couple seasons to make sure that I’m highlighting, you know, disabled advocates that spell the communicator type to communicate. And so that is like really important to me.

Andrew McEntrye I didn’t have this question, but I saw a chat pop up and it goes right along with us about storytelling. And I think your ability to highlight these stories is what’s so compelling and amazing. And part of my podcast, when we talked about it, was a lot of times those barriers, when you see a huge change, like a huge necessity, like a system issue and you feel this need to be able to fight against it, right? And you feel kind of like you’re being pushed down and you have no power. I think I used the example in my podcast about like trying to stop a full force train coming at you and you’re the only one in front of it, you know?

And I think one thing that we highlighted then and maybe even throughout my next year was storytelling. Like stories have this amazing capacity and power to be able to produce change. How do you see that built into your world? Is that key element bridged into seeing things change in your world?

Tim Villegas Yeah. So, I always thought like introducing yourself as a storyteller was like super cringy. Does that make sense? I just was like, I don’t know about that, but I’m more and more leaning into this idea of being a storyteller. And I am just like, I feel like I’m just learning it, you know, like you think you know how to tell a story until you start learning how to tell a story. And you’re like, my gosh, there’s so much to telling a story.

And I’m always a little self-conscious to be honest about telling stories because I tend to be long-winded. I have a certain cadence. Like I pause when I talk, I’m a slow talker and I’m like, how does this guy have a podcast? I don’t understand. But I think that’s it. It really—it always comes back to stories. It always comes back to stories and we’ll never have, like, we’ll never run out of stories. And so I’m trying to lean into this idea of storytelling as a craft because it’s something you learn, right? It’s not just, I’m just going to tell you a story, but like actually how you tell a story, how you put it together as a way to communicate a message or a meaning.

So I really like—I don’t think I’m that great at it, to be honest. And I really need, I want to be better. Like I want to be really, really good at telling stories. So maybe one day I will feel like I’m good at it, but it doesn’t mean that I don’t try. I try to tell stories.

Andrew McEntrye I think all of these people here can say for sure that you have brought all of the stories together. And you were very humble, see it mentions that you have done so much. But from the story you told us earlier about being the point where you’re wanting to become a radio show and host and how you’re able to share that all the way through to the fact that we are here today doing this is a testament to your story and the fact that you are able to connect all of these stories together from so many amazing people. So thank you for doing that.

And then I’m here. I mean, I would have never expected when we had that conversation. So thank you so much.

Tim Villegas I know. Poor Andrew. Poor Andrew. Like, yeah, I cornered him like months ago and I’m like, I have this idea. He did bribe me with like a lunch at like a diner. Let’s be clear. It was a whole process here. I’m glad to be a part of.

A few more questions and I do want to kind of look towards the future, but I have one more question that I couldn’t let go. Working with teachers every day, if you could put one message directly in the hands of every single teacher, every teacher, what would that message be? Like if you could share and say, here’s what I want you to know, not just special ed teachers, not just gen ed teachers, anyone who’s an educator, if you could put a message in their hand, what would you want to let them—

Tim Villegas I think you don’t have to do it alone. I think that’s probably the biggest message is you do not do it alone. And it’s a really easy thing to do when you’re a new teacher is you just put your head down. You have your class, whether that’s a general ed, whether you’re a general ed teacher or a special ed teacher, you get your curriculum and you just go. Because most of the time the collaboration isn’t built into the system. Like rethink all of that, rethink that you have to do it alone. You do not have to do it alone. And I think that that is—I think if everyone thought that way and everyone was like, I can collaborate with people, I think we’d have better schools just in general. So that’s what I would say.

Let’s look to the future. So we talked a little bit about where we came from. Now I want to talk about where Think Inclusive is heading, where your vision is. Let’s take that same role into the future. Let’s say we’re at episode 400, right? We’re looking out that far. What do you hope that you’ll be discussing on episode 400?

Tim Villegas Oh. Well, I hope that I—and speaking into existence—that we’ll have made more progress. I’m taking all of the, everyone’s bold prediction that we’re going to make progress in 2026. And that it’s really not about convincing people that it’s the right thing to do. Inclusive education is the right thing to do, but more of like how—the how, you know, because that is legitimately, you know, people need to know how. So that we, and so hopefully all of us that are on this call, in this meeting, have some sort of role in that to play, whether you’re a parent advocate or whether you’re an educator or whether you’re a technical assistance provider, like everyone here has a role to play. So if we just keep moving in that one direction, then I hope, I hope we’ll get there.

Tim Villegas Then just about the future. So, you know, we’ve talked about storytelling, which is really important, but I think the next frontier to be honest is community—is community organizing. So, as of yet, there is no mechanism for people like us who are on this call to organize, to organize in a movement. And so I would love to see in the future, in the next, you know, five to ten years, a mechanism for organizing and for everyone to know what is going on. So like, you know, the state of Washington—I always talk about the state of Washington—but they have a systemized way of that, that is moving, you know, forward, inclusive practices. State of Maryland, right? We’re small but mighty, right? We have a lot of things going on and we have a very supportive state department of education, right? There’s other things going on in the United States to move forward, but we just don’t know about it. We don’t know about it. And so how do we come together to share stories, right? And to move the work forward.

Because we’re not in competition. You know, like every single person on this call and other people that are doing this kind of work, even if we doubled or tripled our work, we would hardly scratch the surface of what needs to be done in the United States. So we need to figure out a way to organize. And I don’t know if you can hear my dog, but he’s very excited about something. He’s excited about the future of Think Inclusive.

Andrew McEntrye I think what you hit on was right on point and being in the schools and that’s the reason that I sent that text message to you for that encouragement because there’s ripples that are occurring from each action that you guys are doing. It’s making a difference in the schools. I think the barriers now that I see really is that the education piece is often—it’s, as you mentioned earlier, connecting with those people who can make those decisions. And I think it’s happening. I think that we talked about in that last podcast, the pace of change is what’s often frustrating. But it is happening. It is changing. And I see the difference. Even in the conversations from five years ago, when we first started talking, you know, the walls were rock hard, you know, like any conversation I would have, it was with a special ed director or people who can make those decisions. It was like, yeah, but no, you know, it was very much like, sounds great, we’re not—nothing’s, we’re not moving anything. And now I can see those walls are crumbling and things are changing and people are saying the right things, but I think it’s the decision making and the changes that have to occur next that I see coming. So, awesome.

Tim Villegas Well, I’m going to—I know we probably pushed our time.

Andrew McEntrye We did, but you know what? It’s okay. It’s okay. Cause it’s a podcast and we can do that.

Tim Villegas I’m going to remove the pins so that we all can kind of be together. We’re really running out of time. So, I do want—so the last segment of everything, inclusive episode is the mystery question. Okay. So we cannot leave without doing a mystery question.

So here’s what we’re going to do. I have some fresh ones here. And I’m to select a mystery question and we are all going to answer it. Okay. So if you are a special guest, if you, Jenna, Mark, Keith, Andrew, Diana, okay. I want you to think about this and we’ll all answer it together. And then if you are a guest contestant or an audience member, you can answer it in the chat. Okay. That way, because if we—everyone said something, then it would be here for another half hour. All right. So here we go. Mystery question. Is everyone ready? Everyone ready? All right.

What do you miss most about your childhood? What do you miss most about your childhood?

Who? I saw naps in the chat. That’s great. Thanks, Katie. All right. Who wants to go first, Keith? What do I miss about my youth?

Keith Jones Yeah. Energy. And actually, and the music. I grew up tailing to the Motown, first with the funk era, right into the hip hop. So I can’t be mad at it.

Tim Villegas Okay. Very good. Very good. Thanks, Keith. All right. Mark, do you have something?

Mark Crenshaw Um, just because you mentioned that I’m a Cubs fan. I miss the Cubs on WGN when I have to pay to watch the Cubs games. I miss that too, actually. When I didn’t have to pay extra to watch the Cubs games.

Tim Villegas Oh, that’s good. That is good. All right. Okay. Andrew, Jenna or Diana.

Diana Pastora-Carson I’ll go. I think that what I miss most about childhood is not having to be an adult and just like having someone else take care of me all the time, you know, and being at one with imagination and creativity at all times without any distractions from it. I think that’s what I miss the most.

Andrew McEntrye Yes. I would say a world without so many devices. I mean, we had a Nintendo, which I was all into, but it wasn’t stuck to my pocket. And so being able to go outside and run around and not feel the compulsive need to check on a screen.

Jenna Mancini-Rufo Yes. That. Mine’s the same, Andrew. He stole my answer too. But no, I definitely feel that in terms of not being tied to a device all the time. And I just think, you know, I look back and I used to read a lot and I loved reading and I don’t think we see that as much with kids now. So, you know, I’m grateful that I didn’t have all of those distractions and extra pressures that kids have now with social media, electronics and so on.

Tim Villegas Yes. Yes. I think for me, it’s like as an adult, you constantly have things that you are thinking or worrying about, right? Like even this, even this event, which has been so fun, it’s consumed my mental space for like days, if not weeks. So feeling the, feeling the like, no pressure. I can do what I want, think what I want, spend my time, however, and there’s like nothing that I need to be responsible for. Like that’s what I miss. That is what I miss.

Yeah. Yeah. But that is the blessing and the curse of being an adult, I suppose. So, well, thank you everyone. I didn’t miss anyone, right? No, I did. I got everybody. Thank you again for being here and for spending time with us. I felt this was like really great and life giving for me and I hope it was for you.

This will—you know what I’m going to do really quick? Gosh, I’m so sorry. This is like not—you know what? Nevermind. I’m not going to do that. I was going to, I was going to, I was going to read an ad and I’m not going to do that. So we’ll just, we just won’t have ads on this one.

What I want to do is let you know that this will be posted sometime this week. Don’t know when, maybe tomorrow. I don’t know. It depends. I’m leaving for Tash tomorrow. So if you all are going to Tash, I’ll see you there. And thank you again so much for spending time with me. And thank you to Jill Wagoner for being our support and for our very special guests, Keith Jones, Mark Crenshaw, Jenna Rufo, Andrew McEntrye and Diana Pastora-Carson. And for everyone who donated, Jill, do you wanna look and see if there’s an updated tally? Fundraising is $17.33. Y’all, thank you so much. This has been amazing, amazing.

Thanks for your time and attention and remember inclusion always works. Take care, everyone.

Audience Thanks, Tim.