Having High Expectations for All Students with Wyatt Oroke ~ 809

Wyatt Oroke:
It really frustrates me when teachers say, “Well, they’re an eighth grader, but they’re reading on a fourth-grade level, so we should be teaching them fourth-grade skills.” And then my question is, “Well, when are they going to learn fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth-grade skills then?” That’s a question of equity. How do we use the 75,600 minutes we’re getting with our scholars every single year?

Tim Villegas:
Hello and welcome to season eight, episode nine of the Think Inclusive podcast presented by MCIE. I am your host, Tim Villegas. This podcast features conversations and commentary with thought leaders on inclusive education and community advocacy. Think Inclusive exists to build bridges between parents, educators, and disability rights advocates to promote inclusion for all students. That’s right, y’all. All means all. To find out more about who we are and what we do, go to thinkinclusive.us, the official blog of MCIE, and check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

Today on the podcast, we talk with Maryland’s 2020 Teacher of the Year, Wyatt Oroke, about what it means to have an inclusive classroom. We discuss his perspective on how having high expectations for all his scholars is essential and what his dream for the future of education is. But before we get into Mr. Wyatt Oroke’s interview, did you know that almost 70% of our audience listens to us on Apple Podcasts? Which means that you, yes, you, have the opportunity to help people find our podcast by submitting a review right on your phone. When you launch the Apple Podcasts app on your iPhone, tap the search icon on the bottom right and search for Think Inclusive, and then tap the album art. Scroll down the podcast page to ratings and reviews, and then tap on the “Write a Review” link. Give us five stars and your fabulous thoughts and hit send.

Another way to help us out is to go to patreon.com/thinkinclusivepodcast to become a patron. Your contribution helps us with the cost of audio production, transcription, and promotion of the Think Inclusive podcast. And when you become a patron, you get access to unedited interviews, Q&A’s, and behind-the-scenes content. Thank you for helping us equip more people to promote and sustain inclusive education. After the break, our interview with Wyatt Oroke.

Inclusive education is hard work, and for schools and districts that want to be more inclusive but don’t know where to start, it can seem impossible. MCIE can help. We’ve been partnering with educational systems across the United States and the world for three decades and know how to build systemic inclusive school practices, transform educational services, increase the rate of placement of learners with disabilities in general education, reduce removals and suspensions, and improve outcomes for all students across all school settings. To schedule a free initial consultation and find out how we can help, contact us at mcie@mcie.org or visit our website mcie.org.

Tim Villegas:
Okay. So today on the Think Inclusive podcast, we’d like to welcome Mr. Wyatt Oroke, who is a nationally recognized educator for his work around social justice and literacy. Mr. Oroke was named the 2020 Baltimore City Teacher of the Year and the 2021 Maryland Teacher of the Year. He currently teaches seventh and eighth grade English and honors English at City Springs Elementary Middle School in Baltimore City. He has received recognition for his teaching, including awards from Johns Hopkins, University of Baltimore School of Law, the Maryland State Senate, the Baltimore Orioles, and was awarded the Superhero Award by Ellen DeGeneres, where he appeared twice on her show. Wow.

Wyatt Oroke:
I know, crazy, right.

Tim Villegas:
And if you can believe that, I edited that bio down, folks.

Wyatt Oroke:
You’re too kind.

Tim Villegas:
Well Mr. Oroke, Wyatt—can I call you Wyatt? Is that okay?

Wyatt Oroke:
Yes please.

Tim Villegas:
All right. Wyatt, thank you so much for being here. So Think Inclusive, if you’re not aware, is a part of MCIE, which is the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. We put it out to our staff and said, “Hey, who should we get on the podcast?” And they said, “You gotta get Mr. Oroke on.” So that’s why you’re here, and we really appreciate that. Why don’t you just get us started by letting us know what inspired you to become an educator?

Wyatt Oroke:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me today, excited to be here. So my education journey started in elementary school when I knew I wanted to be a teacher. In fourth grade, I was a really struggling reader. I couldn’t spell, couldn’t read well. Words looked like Picasso paintings to me. And I had a teacher that thought the best way to help me improve was to make fun of me every day. She would call me up in front of the class and have me try and spell words she knew I couldn’t spell so that all 25 of my classmates would laugh at me because she thought it was a motivation issue. She thought I just wasn’t working hard enough. After about 10 weeks of going home crying every day, my mom finally figured out what was going on. When we went up to the school, the teacher told my mom and me in the main office that it didn’t matter because I was never going to be more than a C student. So she didn’t really have to put in any more energy or effort into me.

I never stepped foot in that school again. I actually got moved back a grade to third grade and transferred schools. My first day there, Ms. Kirtley gave me a big hug when I got to the door and said, “I’ve been waiting for you. I’m so happy you’re here.” At that moment I was made to feel whole again, as a human being. So as a third grader, I said, wow, teachers really change the way we can view ourselves. That led me to want to be a teacher ever since then.

Tim Villegas:
Wow. That’s fantastic. So as you were talking, I was thinking this is Teacher Appreciation Week, and this podcast will not be published this week, but I’m curious—how do you feel about Appreciation Week? Do you feel like it actually makes you feel appreciated, or is it just one other thing that happens in an educational calendar?

Wyatt Oroke:
I’ll be candid—it seems like one of those things that happens, but I’m not necessarily someone who’s driven by that appreciation. My scholars show appreciation every day by the work they do and the respect they put into our learning space. That’s what gives me the motivation I need to go forward. Don’t get me wrong, a $25 Amazon gift card is great once a year, a nice pat on the back, and I appreciate those. But it’s really the scholars and their work that keeps me motivated every day.

Tim Villegas:
About your scholars—you use that word intentionally. Why do you use “scholars” instead of “learners” or “students”?

Wyatt Oroke:
For me, it’s a level of respect. What do you expect of this young person to do? I believe that’s in the language you use to engage them. Using the word “scholar,” both out in public spaces and internally in our classroom environment, allows them to elevate to that level and perform at a higher level. It also takes away external questions people get—are they really in there working hard? What are they all about? “Scholar” sets the tone: they’re in there to work hard every single day. They give us their very best every single day, and we should respect that.

Tim Villegas:
How do the scholars respond to that designation? Do they care?

Wyatt Oroke:
I’ve used it in all of my teaching, so I’ve never known another format. But I can also say, across my teaching, hundreds of scholars I’ve worked with have all risen to amazing expectations. Within our classroom space, they have all excelled. I guess it’s hard to say what it would be if I used different terminology, but for me and our kids, it’s been working well.

Tim Villegas:
Let’s talk about the high expectations you mentioned. How has that made a difference? With high expectations and your scholars rising to them, how has the level of expectation helped your students achieve?

Wyatt Oroke:
For me, it’s a question of equity. When we think there are learning gaps our scholars might have, that says they can still access grade-level work if we’re doing our job. It frustrates me when teachers say, “They’re an eighth grader, but they’re reading on a fourth-grade level, so we should be teaching them fourth-grade skills.” My question is, “When are they going to learn fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth-grade skills?” That’s a question of equity—how do we use the 75,600 minutes we get with our scholars every year?

Within my classroom, over the past few years I developed an honors-level curriculum—approved by our district—that gives honors credit and additional points when they enter the high school application process. It has made tremendous growth in the schools they’re able to go to. They demonstrate growth on skills a grade level above where they are and perform exceedingly on state assessments and internal assessments—just by giving them higher-grade tasks. They rose to the expectation. We explored Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson and had incredible conversations about the criminal justice system, then met with the city council about what restorative practices look like. That happens in a school that has had one of the highest poverty rates. Many of our scholars come to us not performing well on state assessments. People see them as underperforming, and I say we just haven’t given them the bar they deserve to reach.

Tim Villegas:
Our listeners aren’t all in Maryland. Could you explain how the system works? You talked about points with your scholars applying to high schools. Do they have to apply to the high school they want to go to?

Wyatt Oroke:
That’s a great question. In much of the country, it’s your neighborhood high school. That’s not how it works in Baltimore City. Our young people apply during their eighth-grade year, like for college. You apply to at least five different schools—sometimes more—and you get accepted into one. Some schools have a composite score made up of your seventh-grade grades, eighth-grade grades, performance on state standardized tests, and sometimes your attendance rate. That determines where you go. It’s crazy to think how you did when you were 12 could determine where you’re at when you’re 18 or 19. That shows an incredibly inequitable system in my mind. If that is the system, then my job is: how can I create space for my scholars to excel in this system so they can one day come back and disrupt and break down the system? What space am I creating for our scholars in that sense?

Tim Villegas:
That is unfathomable. Wow.

Wyatt Oroke:
I think, where would 12- or 13-year-old Mr. O be? I struggled. I couldn’t read in middle school, and yet I have a master’s degree from Hopkins. That doesn’t make sense. If my whole life were determined by my struggling reading in seventh grade, it’s clearly not an equitable system.

Tim Villegas:
What have you done—and what advice can you give to educators who want to advocate for their kids in schools, districts, and states?

Wyatt Oroke:
The first step is listening. What are your young people passionate about? That should dictate the moves you make. As a white educator, I sharpen my privilege elbows and create space for them. They’re not the ones who called Lieutenant Governor Rutherford to come to the school, but when he got to the school, I didn’t do any talking. They spoke to him. They weren’t the ones who called Mayor Brandon Scott in, but by doing so, they were able to advocate for themselves.

The second step: when you think about what your classroom sounds like, who’s doing the heavy lifting and who’s doing the talking? My first year of teaching, I brought a stopwatch after I realized my classroom was teacher-centered. I started timing myself whenever I was speaking or leading the conversation. I realized the majority of the time was just me. I then implemented a 90/10 rule: 90% of the time in my classroom, young people are leading, discussing, collaborating, exploring; 10% is me taking the lead on instruction. That allowed scholars to elevate the topics and interests they have and advocate for the things they want to advocate for.

Tim Villegas:
That’s really interesting. Did you let the scholars in on that?

Wyatt Oroke:
The stopwatch thing?

Tim Villegas:
The 90/10 ratio?

Wyatt Oroke:
No. It’s not something I speak about candidly with them, but they see it in how they experience the classroom. There’s a reason our classroom space is seen as so sacred every year—they know it’s their space. If you walk into my classroom, you’ll see college degrees that the young people want to get someday hanging from the ceiling; you’ll see pictures of them around the entire classroom. It becomes their sacred space that I help facilitate. They don’t necessarily know the 90/10 rule, but they see it in action every day.

Tim Villegas:
If you’re listening and you’re an educator, bring a stopwatch and see how much time you’re talking.

Wyatt Oroke:
It’s life-changing. One day after school, I was looking over this kid’s work and thought, “He didn’t do anything all class. Why didn’t he do anything?” I was ready to mark a big F at the top. Then I redid the whole lesson and realized, if I were a student in my class, I would hate this. It made me rethink what lessons look like.

Tim Villegas:
As a struggling reader in school, does that often inform how you plan lessons?

Wyatt Oroke:
A hundred percent. It’s crazy that I was a struggling reader and now I teach English. For that one teacher who doubted me, this is the biggest get back ever. It informs how I review scholar work—really trying to identify their strengths. A lot of education focuses on areas of growth. The conversation right now is around “learning loss.” How toxic and negative is that term? What about the accomplishments they made?

What I try to do as an educator is identify strengths and better leverage them in the classroom. That’s what I had in my experience and why I found success later on in school. Teachers said, “He’s not a great reader, but he’s great at discussion. Maybe if I give him the audiobook, that will help. If I throw in more pictures, that will help. It will make him feel more comfortable and confident.” It did. I see the same practices now working with my young people.

Tim Villegas:
Let’s talk about your classroom and creating a culture of acceptance and inclusion. Something important to Think Inclusive and MCIE is the belief that neighborhood schools create a foundation for inclusive communities. In your view, what are markers of an inclusive classroom?

Wyatt Oroke:
The biggest thing I’ve worked on creating is thinking about the curriculum—what are we actually teaching our young people? How we spend our time shows what we want to elevate and respect. Over my eight years working in Baltimore City, I’ve been able to write my own curriculum, which many teachers aren’t afforded, but I had that opportunity. By creating a curriculum that our scholars see themselves in and feel like their voice is centered in, they’re more respectful of one another, they elevate themselves, and in doing so, elevate their communities.

We also try to partner with different community organizations every quarter, allowing them to see themselves within community work. Whether that’s someone local like Under Armor, or partnering with the Jewish Museum or the Reginald Lewis Museum—these local institutions we partner with help spread the idea that the classroom is not just within four walls. How do we break this down so there’s work being done outside? In doing so, we’re seeing young people rise to leadership roles within our community. I’ll be excited to see where these scholars go in the next 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years.

Tim Villegas:
That’s powerful—bringing in the community so it mirrors what’s going on in the classroom and the community. When you look to the future of education—hopes and dreams included—where do you want to see education go? What are the big ideals we should be striving for?

Wyatt Oroke:
I’m of the mindset: blow it up and start again. I believe our education system is inherently racist—it’s intentionally working to hold scholars of color back. I can’t find a way to be just an ally in this work, but more of a co-conspirator—willing to dismantle and be disruptive. We need to rethink how we spend our time. Are our seven-hour school days beneficial to all scholars? If not, how can we restructure them? What do learning experiences look like? A lot of curriculum maintains a teacher-centered focus—what are we doing there? What do professional learning experiences look like for teachers? How are we actually training and preparing them for the work?

We’ve always teetered on the idea of schools being foundational hubs in our community. Are we actually going to do that, or just say, “Maybe some have a food bank, maybe some offer legal services, maybe some have afterschool activities”? There needs to be a point of reckoning where we say yes—our schools will be the hub of communities, supporting families and the community with ongoing support and learning. Our future needs to be not just community-school-focused but broader than our current understanding—really centralizing the work in the school building.

Tim Villegas:
You talk about “blow it up.” How can we rebuild that and keep in mind it’s not just about one particular group?

Wyatt Oroke:
We were having that conversation a couple of weeks ago in my school community. We were looking at the curriculum our scholars with special needs—who identify within a self-contained classroom—are receiving. We discovered they’re leaving us having only really been introduced to fifth-grade skills—not even mastered—without exploring grade-level content. That’s one of the most harmful things you can do for young people. The work is taking grade-level content that allows high expectations and adequately differentiating it so scholars have access points.

We really underestimate our young people. Teachers do, the system does, outsiders do. We underestimate their abilities, and in doing so, we lower expectations. A critical piece is thinking about what curriculum they’re exposed to and whether it truly meets their needs. When we create individual learning plans for scholars with disabilities, is it setting them up for success, or are we lowering expectations because we think that’s what they deserve?

There was a heated debate in my school community about performance-based grouping. If you’re in fourth grade but reading at a third-grade level, you’re in a third-grade group; if you’re reading at a fifth-grade level, you’re in a fifth-grade group. How does that impact what our young people experience in school?

We should restructure that system. Think about preparedness for the next step. For scholars entering sixth grade, that kind of grouping doesn’t happen—they get grade-level content. If you’ve never been exposed to fifth-grade content and you join sixth grade, you’re at a disadvantage from the jump. For eighth graders going on to high school, if you’ve never been exposed to content in sixth, seventh, or eighth grade, we’re setting you up for failure. Every school in the country can do this work. The question is, do we have the willingness to? Are we actually willing to put our scholars first, or not?

Tim Villegas:
That’s something we think about every day. How do we create a sense of urgency for schools to change? You got the answer, Mr. Oroke?

Wyatt Oroke:
I don’t. But when I started teaching, two people really spoke to me. One was a young person who stood in front of 700 brand-new teachers to Baltimore City, giving a speech, nervous as anything. She ended with, “Am I worth it?” That was her closing sentence. When you’re tired, ask, “Am I worth it?” That put it all in perspective. At 2:00 a.m. creating a lesson plan—yeah, it’s going to be worth it for the 13-year-olds tomorrow.

The other was a principal I worked with early on who reminded me every day: “The lives of children are on the line today.” Do you realize their lives are on the line? Thinking about my own experience, I thought, yes. Me as a fourth grader being ridiculed every day—my learning experience and what I thought of myself were on the line daily, and my teacher chose not to honor it. Am I respecting that their lives are also on the line every day?

It also made me reflect: if my goal is just to make sure they’re ready by June, then I’m failing kids. My goal is, what do they look like five Junes from now, ten Junes from now, twenty Junes from now? If my mindset isn’t there, then I’m failing my young people every day I show up.

Tim Villegas:
You’re making me want to be a teacher again, Mr. Oroke.

Wyatt Oroke:
Come on. I’ve got a couple of things at my school—come on.

Tim Villegas:
No, that’s okay. Sixteen years.

Wyatt Oroke:
Oh, you put in the work.

Tim Villegas:
I’m so pleased to speak with a passionate educator—someone who clearly sees the connection and is making those connections. I want to thank Mr. Wyatt Oroke for being on the Think Inclusive podcast. Wyatt, will you let us know how people can find out more about you—are you on the socials?

Wyatt Oroke:
Sure. I am on the socials—kind of. I’m on Instagram @wyattoroke. I’m on Twitter, but I don’t tweet. You can hunt me down on those. If you DM me, I can give you my email address. I’m always down to connect—educators, non-educators—whoever. I can have this conversation all day long. Definitely reach out.

Tim Villegas:
All right. Thanks for being on the podcast.

Wyatt Oroke:
Thank you for having me.

Tim Villegas:
That will do it for this episode of the Think Inclusive podcast. Subscribe via Apple Podcasts, the Anchor app, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@thinkinclusive.us. We love to know that you’re listening. Thank you to patrons Pamela P, Veronica E, Kathleen T, Mark C, Sarah C, and Kathy B for their continued support of the podcast. For our patrons, Wyatt and I talk about TV shows and books that have recently inspired us. To check it out, become a patron at patreon.com/thinkinclusivepodcast to get access to that unedited interview.

This podcast is a production of MCIE, where we envision a society where neighborhood schools welcome all learners and create the foundation for inclusive communities. Learn more at mcie.org. We’ll be back next month with two podcasts again—we are on a roll. Our guests will be Sarah Wishart, the creative director of Each Other and a documentary filmmaker—we’re going to talk about her film Excluded, a young-people-led film about school inclusion in the UK. Also, co-teaching expert Marilyn Friend tells us how much you really should be using that one-teach, one-assist model. Look out for a brand-new Think Inclusive website, launching sometime in July. We are feverishly preparing it for you as we record this episode. Thanks for your time and attention. Until next time, remember: inclusion always works.