Embracing the Complexity of Inclusive Education with Aaron Lanou

Tim Villegas: All right. Hey friends, my name is Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, and you are listening to or watching Think Inclusive, our podcast that features conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. Now, if you’re watching on YouTube, you will notice that I am wearing my Los Angeles Dodgers jersey and I have a friend with me, my friend and neighbor, Kelvin Jimenez. As you can see, his jersey, his favorite team is the Yankees.

Kelvin Jimenez: That’s right. That’s right.

Tim Villegas: It is World Series Week. The World Series starts on Friday between the Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Yankees. I thought it would be fun to have Kelvin come over and give us his World Series prediction. So, Kelvin, what do you think?

Kelvin Jimenez: Yeah, you know, 4, 5, 6, 7 games. What we got? I think this World Series is gonna be epic. There’s a lot of things going on, a big narrative, but if you had to ask me, I would say Yankees in six.

Tim Villegas: Okay. Okay. I like that. I like that. Personally, I’m gonna pick the Dodgers. I think it’s gonna be Dodgers in seven and really close. I think there’s gonna be a lot of runs scored. Like previous World Series, it’s all about the pitching matchups. Both the Yankees and the Dodgers offenses are just ridiculous. So, we may end up having some high-scoring games, and it’s always fun when that happens. We actually agree on something. Okay, Kelvin, I disagree on who’s actually gonna win the World Series.

The other reason I wanted Kelvin to come by and say hi was to talk about something he’s involved with. Kelvin, tell us about your hat.

Kelvin Jimenez: Oh, my hat. It’s a concept I created called Papi Poquet. It’s Spanish, and the English translation is Daddy and Papi Poquet. It came about because I wanted to encourage kids to ask questions. One of the best ways kids learn is by asking questions. I wanted to make sure kids feel comfortable asking as many questions as possible to gain as much knowledge as possible.

The root cause of this comes from my own experience growing up with what most people would consider an absent dad. My dad was there, but he really wasn’t. So, I never had a male figure to ask questions to. There were many things I grew up wanting to know or needing answers to that I didn’t have. I wanted to pass that forward and encourage kids to ask questions, especially those growing up like me, to let them know it’s okay to ask questions and get answers from different sources.

Tim Villegas: Awesome. And with Papi Porque, you have some children’s books, right?

Kelvin Jimenez: Yes, I’m on my third children’s book. It’s a series. One book is about learning culture, another about general things, and they’re broken into different themes so the questions are more related to those themes. You may get mixed questions in all the books, but they follow the theme of each book.

Tim Villegas: And people can find those on Amazon?

Kelvin Jimenez: You can find them on papipoquet.com and the first book on Barnes & Noble. The more demand there is, the more they’re willing to pick it up.

Tim Villegas: Okay. All right. Give me all those links, and we’ll put them in the show notes for everyone interested in checking out Papi Poquet. This week’s episode is with our guest, Aaron Lanou, from New York. He’s an inclusive education consultant, and he gave his World Series prediction.

Aaron Lanou: My World Series prediction? I think the Dodgers are gonna sweep the Yankees. I don’t think the Yankees stand a chance. Maybe I’m a little biased, but I’m calling it for the Dodgers.

Tim Villegas: Well, I think Aaron and I agree on one thing: a New Yorker rooting for the Dodgers.

I almost forgot to tell you about our incredible sponsor for this season, IXL. IXL is a teaching and learning online platform designed for kindergarten through 12th grade. School districts across the country use it to track and measure student progress. It’s customizable and provides various resources for learner variability. If that sounds interesting to you, learn more at ixl.com/inclusive. Again, that’s ixl.com/inclusive.

Okay, when we come back, my conversation with Aaron Lanou. See you on the other side.

Tim Villegas: Aaron Lanou, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Aaron Lanou: Thanks so much, Tim. Really happy to be here with you.

Tim Villegas: Okay, so we’re on video. For those of you watching on YouTube, you can see Aaron’s background, and it looks like you have something that resembles a dance floor.

Aaron Lanou: Oh, that’s back there. The whole phrase says, “Don’t you know it’s your dance floor?” It’s a line from a feminist punk band that I love. My husband made this garland banner for me when I moved into this office.

Tim Villegas: Oh my gosh, that’s amazing. What band is that?

Aaron Lanou: La Tigre.

Tim Villegas: A secret? No, I don’t know that. I’ve heard from earlier podcasts that you are an indie rock fan.

Aaron Lanou: I am an indie rock fan, yeah.

Tim Villegas: So I thought I might have known that, but we’ll have to share tracks later.

Aaron Lanou: Very good. Yeah, later.

Tim Villegas: Awesome. Aaron, you’re a former classroom teacher, if I remember correctly.

Aaron Lanou: Yes, yep.

Tim Villegas: Usually, classroom teachers, especially those who work with kids receiving special education services, find inclusion important. I’m wondering, why is it important to you?

Aaron Lanou: I’ve been in the educational world for about 20 years now, a little more than that. I think I’ve come to see inclusive education as simply the right way to do things. It’s the correct way, the just way, the fair way to do things. The way I see it now, it’s almost absurd the way we actually do things typically. We have systems set up that evaluate kids in a very particular way, and someone who doesn’t know the child all that well makes a determination about that child’s ability. From that, they come up with a setting that the child is supposed to learn best in. Oftentimes, the child doesn’t have any say in that, and all too often, the families don’t have much say either. There’s also not much evidence that the setting will benefit the child learning-wise or socially-emotionally in the long run. That system seems kind of bizarre and wrong to me.

Though this might feel pie in the sky, I feel like what should happen is as simple as: “Hello, young person. You live in this neighborhood, and this is your school. It’s where all your friends and neighbors go. Welcome to the school. You go here like everyone else does, no matter what. Our whole job is to know you, figure you out, and determine what you need to learn best. You’re going to get a great education here along with all the people in your community.” That seems logical to me.

For many reasons—the history of how we’ve done education, special education, political aspects, ways that people in various communities and identity groups have been excluded historically and continually—we know that’s not actually what happens. But at its core, it feels like, “Isn’t that how it should go?” It seems so simple, but I also recognize it’s a lot harder than that. My take on it is based on my experience, people I’ve been exposed to and worked with, people whose work I’ve read, and disabled advocates I’ve learned from. I know not everyone’s on that path or had the same exposure to the same people and ideas. There are entrenched systems we’re working against, though I don’t like to frame things in battle metaphors. It is kind of true oftentimes. So, it’s simple, yet I get that it’s not simple. It should be this way, and I see why it’s not. The work you do and we do is about finding ways to get closer to that simple reality.

Tim Villegas: I like what you said about finding ways to get there. Sometimes we can get into the mindset that our way is the only way and the right way. Certainly, I think there are better ways. I’ll give you a quick example: slow, methodical, purposeful, intentional planning of transitioning from segregated classrooms to inclusive classrooms is better than snapping our fingers and saying, “Okay, everyone’s in general ed, the whole school or district, and we’re just gonna figure it out.” I think one’s better than the other. But if you’ve made the commitment to make it work, kudos to you.

Aaron Lanou: Yeah, that’s a good point. I appreciate in our earlier conversations, you’ve always dug into the realities, nuances, and challenges of this. Though we like to snap our fingers and talk about waving a magic wand to set up systems and people where they should be to make this a reality, we know the reality is PE teachers need training, schools need resources, people need to be brought up to speed, and we need a shared understanding and commitment. That doesn’t happen overnight.

Tim Villegas: I have yet to talk with an educator who, once you explain what we’re talking about—I’m looping everyone in as far as inclusion advocates—when we talk about inclusive education, we’re not talking about just putting kids with and without disabilities in the same classroom 100% of the time no matter what. That’s not what I mean. If there isn’t any discussion about support or what happens if a child is having a difficult time in a general education environment, what do we do then? There are all these questions. It doesn’t mean we don’t plan for 100%, but because everyone is different, you’re going to meet people in different ways. A fully inclusive system plans for 100%, but it doesn’t always mean you’ll get there. It’s not the kids’ fault; it’s the adults. We haven’t figured it out yet.

Aaron Lanou: Yeah.

And we’re sorry, children, young people. Yes, because we should have. We should have. It’s all enough. It really is. I feel like I’ve gotten to a point in my life where everything is about holding conflicting ideas simultaneously in my head at the same time. I’d heard people talk about that as a sign of maturity. I hope it is. It’s challenging. It’s next to impossible, but we have to hold in our minds at the same time: this must happen. Inclusion, inclusive settings. Truly inclusive settings need to happen for all kids all the time, right away. They deserve it, and people are ready for it. But it won’t work in the way you described. We can’t snap our fingers; it’s not gonna happen overnight.

That’s for a whole host of reasons that we need to truly understand, work with, and work through to get closer to that reality. It’s sometimes really hard to reconcile those two different things that I feel very equally and strongly about. Very well-meaning, smart, hardworking teachers who aren’t super inclusively minded and don’t teach in an inclusive setting or do and don’t do it well are working really hard. They’re in a profession that’s not respected, suffering burnout, and dealing with the fallout from COVID for their students, themselves, and their families. That’s very hard. I have incredible compassion, patience, and understanding for people who don’t just agree with everything I say but want to do the right thing, want to do right by kids. They haven’t been exposed to the things I’ve been exposed to, got the training I’ve been lucky enough to receive, or collaborated with the amazing people I’ve been able to collaborate with that have gotten me personally to this spot where this is what I think is important.

Years ago, in a program I worked in, we had a theme of our year: start from where they’re at. We had a one-pager distributed to hundreds of teachers: start from where they’re at. It’s not about getting all these kids to this place. It’s like, okay, we want to support children with organization and executive functioning skills. What are they currently able to do? Let’s start there and get them to the next step. We want to support autistic students’ social development. Where are they now? Let’s really understand it in a respectful way and see what it takes to get to the next step.

The same mindset and approach has to be true for people who are in a position to support teachers in this work. Start from where they’re at. Everyone’s at a different place. Let’s move the needle as much as we can in an authentic, helpful, practical way. We don’t just get to have one 44-minute conversation with teachers, leave, and then everything is magical, unicorns and rainbows, and inclusively beautiful when we leave their classroom. It takes time, patience, compassion, understanding, and dedication.

Tim Villegas: Oh, yeah. Why would we encourage teachers to have relationships with students and understand where the students are coming from, but as leaders and coaches, not do the same thing for teachers?

Aaron Lanou: Yeah. It’s hard when you hold yourself to the expectation that you walk the walk of what you’re asking of others. It’s hard to live that, but people who are really committed to this work hold themselves to that standard.

Tim Villegas: Absolutely. I’m wondering, as you’re thinking about how inclusion actually impacts learners, if you have any stories or thoughts that come to mind.

Aaron Lanou: Yeah. A lot of times when I talk about inclusive practice, I have this little keynote animated video thing I’ve developed that doesn’t translate as well purely in audio, but I’ll do my best to describe it. It frames the way I think about it. Think about learning as climbing a mountain. All people have to do it. It’s hard work to climb a mountain. Learning is hard; it’s supposed to be hard. But the way we’ve designed school, kids don’t just have to climb the mountain of learning. They have to climb the mountain of learning that we’ve thrown all these boulders on top of.

The boulders are things like: in order to learn math, you also have to sit still for 45 minutes at a time. That’s not required for learning; that’s just the way we’ve designed school. In order to learn math, you’ve got to listen to, attend to, and retain a lot of verbal information that I’m giving. That’s not required for learning; that’s just how we do school. There are a lot of those things. The way we’ve set up the system of schooling requires things that aren’t expected of actual learning but are expected of kids to do well in school the way we’ve made it.

Each of those things—sit still, listen to me, attend, produce written work—are boulders or barriers we throw in kids’ paths on their climb up the learning mountain. Different kids come to the base of that mountain with different tools in their packs naturally because humans are different from one another. Some kids come to the base of the mountain with pickaxes and shovels that are really good for getting over that boulder. The sit-still boulder? No problem. I got it. Now I can learn the math in school the way you want me to. Other kids come to that mountain with other tools that are great tools, like screwdrivers, which is a great, handy tool. I installed a dimmer switch in my apartment the other day where I thought I was gonna electrocute myself and burn down the building, and I didn’t. Screwdrivers are great tools. Kids might have a snorkel. Snorkels are great tools; they just don’t help you when you’re climbing a mountain trying to get over a boulder.

We don’t value those strengths that kids bring to school. We value only a certain subset of strengths that kids bring to school. Getting to inclusive practice, the way I think about it is basically like weaving a net of support over the mountain. When these boulders come crashing down on top of the mountain, it catches at least most of the stuff that’s gonna get in kids’ way and impede their journey. If sitting still is an expectation, we have lots of desks and chairs that aren’t well designed, but we can make movement breaks a normal practice in our classroom. We can incorporate body movement to the extent that kids are able to into lessons meaningfully.

Aaron Lanou: And if we expect kids to listen a lot, attend, and remember information, we can also write directions on the board. We can have visual supports. We can create broken-down checklists for kids. There are practices we can implement to minimize the impact of these unnecessary barriers we’ve created in the way we’ve designed school.

The way I like to talk about that is that those things are going to be perfect. The thing that a “snorkel kid” needs to be successful—like written directions and movement breaks—without those, they won’t do well in math. With those things, they got it. But there will be other kids you weren’t even thinking about who also really like to have those written directions and movement breaks. These supports can benefit everybody. They’re not going to hurt anyone, and they’re not a huge lift. They’re not asking teachers to do a whole lot of extra work.

Framing inclusive practice that way, I’ve seen many examples. When you’re a special ed teacher in a co-taught classroom and you’re navigating individualized support for a kid, they’re in fifth grade, 10 or 11 years old, and very aware of who’s sitting next to them and what people are getting. You respectfully give one or two kids a graphic organizer that someone else doesn’t have. To reduce the stigma, make it available to anyone. I’ve even had kids look at it and say, “Oh, that looks helpful. Can I have that too?” The answer is yes, you can. I wasn’t even thinking of you specifically when I designed this, but if you think this will help you organize your essay, do it, have at it.

Certain practices tailored for individual students have the potential to benefit many students and contribute to a classroom ethos where everyone gets what they need, and that’s the norm. There’s the practical impact—like the kid’s essay is better after having that graphic organizer. There’s also the emotional, self-image, community impact where people feel it’s okay to ask questions and for help. Working on self-advocacy skills with all kinds of kids has huge benefits.

Tim Villegas: I like how you mentioned specially-designed instruction for one or two students. It’s not SDI for everyone else; it’s just a support.

Aaron Lanou: Yeah.

Tim Villegas: They can use it or not use it, but for the kids it’s designed for, it’s SDI and that’s their special education. You can do that. There’s no special education police saying, “I’m sorry, you can’t use that.”

Aaron Lanou: Exactly. I love that there’s no special ed police. We sometimes get hyper-focused on deficits and challenges kids with IEPs have. Let’s frame it positively and do it in a strength-based way. We think of supports that will benefit them and design it best for their learning style. That’s important for that kid, and all that work is super important. It’s also more efficient and effective when we realize that support can be useful to many other kids in the space.

When a kid needs something specific, we figure it out and provide it. Not everything should be universal; some kids need something very specific, and that’s okay. A kid requires an AAC device to communicate—that child should have access to it, and people should know about it. That’s good. But many things we do, thinking we’re doing them especially for one kid, can benefit many others if we provide them to all kids in one setting.

Tim Villegas: That’s a good example. An AAC device is unique to an individual, and not everyone needs one.

Aaron Lanou: Yeah.

Tim Villegas: We talked a little about barriers for learners, but I’d like to talk about barriers for teachers. As both of us have been former classroom teachers, working within a system and trying to change it, what are some barriers inclusively-minded teachers face in schools that still segregate learners?

Aaron Lanou: Well, like you said earlier, there’s often a misconception of inclusion as a place. We’re doing our job by the fact that a kid with an IEP is in this particular class. We know that’s not inclusion. Inclusion involves the structures that get the kid into that space, but also practices and mindsets—like philosophy and approach.

I sometimes talk about the M&Ms of inclusive education: method, mindset, and structures. You need the method—the practices and tools. But if all you have is a great graphic organizer and don’t know who to use it with, you’re stuck. You need the mindset—the approach, understanding, and commitment to strengths-based work. And you need the structures—the systems to ensure kids are in the building, the building is accessible, and there’s professional development support for teachers. We need all three: mindset, method, and structures. The barriers show up in each of those areas.

For teachers committed to inclusion in a non-inclusive norm, it can be exhausting and isolating. You might deal with condescending or combative colleagues. You might fall into the “your kids, my kids” mentality, lacking shared responsibility and commitment. That’s hard to grapple with.

Aaron Lanou: And you might just be working in a place with a culture that has a very medical model mindset, where certain kids have problems, and it’s your job over there to fix them. I don’t have to worry about it. That’s really hard, and that’s just the mindset stuff.

Then there’s the practice stuff. You might not have the resources or access to training and support you need to know what to do to support your students. Unfortunately, the structures piece too—you might not have the students in your room that you know should be there with you. You might not have a co-teacher or a co-teacher all the time because the funding or scheduling hasn’t allowed for it. You might be constantly advocating for your kids to go on field trips or be at the assembly, even though assemblies often are terrible. Many kids might need an alternative if they’re not even thought of or included. There are structural, systemic things that exclude kids all the time. So, I think they show up in all those spots. All the things we want to work in kids’ favor sometimes, unfortunately, do the opposite.

Tim Villegas: This reminds me of a story. When I was teaching in a segregated classroom K through 5 for students with significant intellectual disabilities, I had a student who used a wheelchair and had a feeding tube. There were multiple health issues. She came to me in kindergarten. We included her in kindergarten during circle time, and the teacher was great. We developed a great relationship. In the first few weeks of school, we were figuring out specials like going to the gym, art, or music. We took her into the gym for PE, and I had a relationship with the PE teacher. We were doing our best to have an integrated PE time. The second we brought her into the gym, she lost it. She was already non-speaking, so the only way we knew if she was happy or sad was by the noises she made. This was definitely an unhappy noise.

I had drilled into my staff that inclusion was important, and we were going to make it work. They looked at me, asking what to do because they wanted her to participate in PE, but she was obviously upset and didn’t want to be there. I didn’t know why. So, I said, “We’re not going to torture her. We need to leave and figure out what’s going on.” We learned that this student didn’t feel comfortable in big, open, echoey spaces. She didn’t feel safe and didn’t want to be there. We had to plan something different for her. Did we stop trying? No, we didn’t.

Aaron Lanou: I knew the answer to the question before you said it.

Tim Villegas: We could have said, “Nope, that’s it, it’s over. We tried, this is too much.” But my perspective was that we couldn’t figure it out for this particular student, but we were going to figure out something else. Maybe we would only go for a few minutes at a time and help her feel safe in those few minutes. She was young, and things got better as we moved along. She ended up going to another school after the next year, so I don’t know the end of the story. But I share that because we’re not in the business of torturing kids just because we want an inclusive placement in classes.

Aaron Lanou: A good friend and mentor of mine, Dorothy Siegel, a big advocate for inclusive education for decades in New York City, sometimes talks about what she used to see less of in New York City public schools now. In the past, people doing inclusion were doing the “drop and pray” model, which is what you were describing before. They’re in the room, and we think we’re doing it. The “pray” part is hoping it works out without the problem-solving and commitment to figuring it out. Your story is a good one because the nuance of inclusion is that it’s not just about place and getting kids in the room. Inclusion is not about doing this thing here and expecting kids to do it the way we’re all doing it. We have to rethink assumptions and entrenched ideas about how we do school for the benefit of not just students with IEPs but many other kids who are not able to learn their best, sometimes excluded, or get in trouble for not conforming to the rigid way we’ve designed schooling.

Tim Villegas: Exactly. Another example, I want to give a shout-out to the team at Ruby Bridges Elementary School in Woodville, Washington. Cathy Davis is a friend and colleague. And something that she says that I love is, “We thought of you when we designed or built this place.” Everything I know about Ruby Bridges, I was fortunate enough to visit and observe what the school looks like. When you have a mindset of everyone belongs in this school, and we are going to design spaces that don’t exclude you but support you, and you belong in every single space that everyone else belongs in, it makes problem-solving so much easier. Everyone’s on the same page—everyone belongs. There are some problems here that we’re going to figure out. In her office, I did an interview with her, and on her bookshelves, she has a sign that says, “Everything is figureoutable.” I love that.

Aaron Lanou: Me too.

Tim Villegas: Imagine if everyone at a school had that mindset.

Aaron Lanou: Yeah, that would change things a lot. A lot of what people face when they confront resistance to inclusive practice and mindset is the “we can’t.” We can’t for all the reasons—we don’t have space, money, resources, training. There’s a lot of “we can’t do it.” To have that growth mindset philosophy of “we’re going to figure this out, we can, and we will” is a game changer. Entering into a difficult thing to figure out and get right, that mindset helps a lot.

Tim Villegas: Quick side plug for Inclusion Stories. Ruby Bridges was featured on that, and it was fabulous.

Aaron Lanou: Oh yeah, no, thank you for bringing that up. It was amazing to hear about what they’re doing and the process they went through. Not just, “Look at this place, it’s so great,” but the thinking that went into it. They don’t sugarcoat it—it’s a lot of work, master scheduling, and all the rest. It’s not a snap-your-fingers thing, but it was a powerful story to hear.

Tim Villegas: Thank you for bringing that up. I did not pay Aaron to say that, so I appreciate it. Yes, listen to Inclusion Stories on your favorite podcast player. It’s a five-part series. I believe the one you’re talking about is part four, but it might be part three or four. I think it’s four because three is Sehome High School, I believe.

Let’s talk about advice because I know there are probably some educators out there listening and thinking, “Yes, Aaron, Tim, I am with you. I believe in inclusive practices, but I’m not in the right spot. I’m not in a school that believes in it. I don’t have leadership that believes in it. I don’t want to quit my job because I love working with kids.” That’s real. There are thousands of teachers in that position. Do you have any advice for them?

Aaron Lanou: I would say keep listening to Think Inclusive. I don’t mean to keep plugging stuff, but I really mean it.

Tim Villegas: Again, he was not a sponsor. No, but we appreciate it.

Aaron Lanou: I do think it’s powerful. Part of the reason I mention that is I think it’s really important to find your people. They might be people out in the world that you don’t know, but they’re on Instagram, have a podcast, wrote a book, or are on YouTube. There are a lot of people in this world of inclusive education, real advocates, sharing powerful stories, offering practical advice, guidance, support, and strategies that can be really helpful. It’s kind of make or break for someone eager for this work and looking for it.

I’ve been very lucky to be surrounded in many of my professional settings by co-teachers, colleagues, and mentors who push for this and advocate for this. How lucky am I to have experienced that? I recognize that’s not everyone’s reality. Finding your people is about finding people at your school, even if they’re not at your grade level or department. There’s probably someone else who thinks similarly to you in your building. You might not run into them in the hall every day, but if you can make an effort to connect, it can be very sustaining.

One of the best compliments I’ve ever gotten for any of my work came a couple of weeks ago. I gave a presentation at the University of Sydney’s Successful Learning Conference on inclusive practice and executive functioning supports. A teacher wrote to me afterward and said, “I’m an advocate for this work. I care about this work so much. I love this work, and I’m in a building where it is not the norm. I don’t get any support, and people don’t think this way. I’d been seriously considering leaving the profession, and I think your talk just got me through another year.” Being partially responsible for someone committed to this work feeling like they have a little more in the tank to stick with it is a gift. That was really powerful to hear.

People need to know there are others doing this work who care about it, and it’s possible to connect with them. In terms of practice, think about your sphere of influence. The biggest thing is to do right by your kids, and likely they’re already doing that. Beyond that, be an advocate for your kids and families. Push and nudge a little where you feel comfortable. To the extent you have anything left in the tank after teaching all day, find ways to do a really good job in your classroom with good practice. Sometimes you might have more reserves to speak up in staff meetings or set up a meeting with the principal or district. If you have the capacity to do that, it’s fabulous, important, and meaningful. It doesn’t always mean the thing you want to happen will happen, but it can be powerful, and sometimes it does happen.

There’s a story a friend and former colleague of mine shared. She was teaching in a separate setting in a school that wasn’t super inclusively minded. And she’s teaching second grade and found out that the whole second grade team was going on a field trip, and no one thought to invite her second grade class. She was in the office and saw a copy of the field trip permission slip on the copier and thought, “Well, I’ll run 12 more of these.” She ran the copies, sent them home, and showed up with her class. The teachers were surprised, but she said, “All my slips are ready to go. We’re so excited to go to the zoo,” or whatever it was. Sometimes you have to get scrappy to make it work for you and your kids.

Tim Villegas: Aaron, where can people find more about you and the services you offer?

Aaron Lanou: I do a lot of inclusive education coaching, presenting, and consulting in New York City and around the country and world. One thing I’m running this year that folks might be interested in is a workshop series on inclusive practice called Designing Teaching Differently. It’s seven different workshops between October and May, one a month, on topics like executive functioning, Universal Design for Learning, social stories, visual supports, and other inclusive practice essentials. Folks can find more information at my website, aaronlanou.com. You might need to Google it; it’s not the most logical name, but you’ll see it in the show notes or the title. Also on Instagram at @aaronlanou, LinkedIn, and other places where people are doing things and putting things out there—except for TikTok. I haven’t gotten on TikTok yet.

Tim Villegas: Have you gotten on that one yet?

Aaron Lanou: Nope. I resisted.

Tim Villegas: We are on TikTok, actually. I don’t think I’ve ever said this on an episode. We are on TikTok, y’all. If you want to find us, we’re at Maryland Coalition because NCIE and other names were taken. That’s where we are. I don’t advertise that, but now you know. If you want to get on there, you can follow both Aaron and us. We’ll make sure to put your link in the show notes and your name and spelling in the title. Thank you for letting us know where to find you.

Tim Villegas: Okay, Aaron, are you ready for the mystery question?

Aaron Lanou: Nervous but ready.

Tim Villegas: My stack is getting bigger. Here we go. The question is: Who is someone you’d like to trade places with for a day?

Aaron Lanou: Who wants to go first? Do you need a second to think about it?

Tim Villegas: I think I have mine if you need another minute.

Aaron Lanou: I don’t have it.

Tim Villegas: Sometimes I’ve been asked, if you weren’t in education, what would you do? I answer without hesitation: drummer in a rock band. I don’t think I’m good enough to be one, and I couldn’t stand the life on the road or think I’m cool enough. But that’s dreamland for me. Janet Weiss is one of my favorite drummers. She’s from Quasi and Sleater-Kinney. I think she’s great. If I could do what she does with her drums for a day, that would feel amazing.

Tim Villegas: Wow, that’s great. This is a tough one because I don’t have anyone specific. I’ve been an NPR listener since early college. I always fantasized about being on Morning Edition or something like that, being the host. I know it’s a tough job, but it would be really cool to do that for a day. I’d probably be exhausted, but it’s just one day. You get to sleep and recover. It’s so different from what I do now, but it’s adjacent. At least I have time to come up with questions and think about them. NPR folks have a team of people, but I’d probably geek out at one of the national NPR studios.

Aaron Lanou: Terry Gross has a big following. She’s a cult hero. You’re not alone in that feeling. You’re a great interviewer, and that sounds like a good match for you.

Tim Villegas: Thank you. We support our local NPR station, WABE, in Atlanta. NCIE is in Maryland. I don’t know the NPR stations up there, unfortunately. We like to rep WABE around here. Love our NPR stations and local affiliates.

Tim Villegas: Let’s do a bonus mystery question because we have a little time and I want to talk about music. You said you’re a big fan of indie rock. If you pull up your Spotify or wherever you listen to music, what’s on your playlist right now?

Aaron Lanou: Most of the time I listen to music is when I’m jump roping, which I do all the time. I have a jump rope playlist with the perfect BPM to keep me going. It’s mostly old stuff. I’ve got a lot of Pixies, Blondie, Talking Heads, Taco Cat from Seattle, Dinosaur Skin from Taiwan, and The Clash. The whole self-titled album is 175 BPM, so you can jump rope for 27 minutes straight. That’s currently what gets rotation—my jump rope playlist.

Tim Villegas: That is fantastic. I love The Clash. I met Joe Strummer in person.

Aaron Lanou: Did you?

Tim Villegas: This was back in my rock and roll days in LA. We would go into LA to see shows at the El Rey, an old theater. I’m, and there’s a… We were seeing a band called Blonde Redhead, which is like indie rock legends. Me and my buddy, I was in the band at the time, walked past the bar, and there’s Joe Strummer hanging out at the bar. My buddy Chad was like, “You know, effing Joe Strummer is at the bar. We need to go and have a drink with Joe Strummer.” I didn’t have the courage to do that, but he did. So I followed him, and he introduced himself. Joe was just talking with some people. We wanted to buy him shots, but he said, “No, I don’t do that anymore. Give me a Corona instead.” We bought him a Corona, toasted, and had a drink with Joe Strummer. Amazing. Then we left.

Aaron Lanou: It’s good to have friends like your friend. I share your lack of courage to go up to people. I once saw the traffic reporter from a local New York cable news station, Jamie Stelter, at a book event. I wanted to tell her that we watch her every day and sometimes mimic her in celebration, not mocking. She’s a tiny local celebrity. I couldn’t muster up the courage to say anything and just shyly retreated, got super red, and walked right by her.

Tim Villegas: Oh no. Good on you for having a friend who encourages you. It’s all about interdependence, isn’t it?

Aaron Lanou: I like it. Yes, full circle there.

Tim Villegas: Aaron Lanou, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive podcast. This was a lot of fun.

Aaron Lanou: I had a lot of fun as well. Thank you for having me and thanks for putting this out there to the world.

Tim Villegas: Welcome back. It’s time for the part of the episode that I like to call “Three for Me and Two for You,” where I give three reflections about the conversation we just had with Aaron Lanou and two calls to action.

Tim Villegas: Number one: I’d like to point out that the conversation Aaron and I had about inclusive education and the state of how schools are right now—many educators and families wanting inclusive education and practices but not knowing how to get there—is happening all over the United States, Canada, and other educational systems. I appreciated Aaron’s honesty about how hard it is to move things forward. Not everyone is ready for this change. As someone who works in communications and tries to deliver this message every day, whether talking to someone in person, over Zoom, or on socials, there are many reasons why people think inclusive education won’t work. I hope this conversation helps you have language to discuss the struggles of moving inclusive education forward in your area.

Tim Villegas: Number two: Inclusive education doesn’t mean 100% of students with disabilities have to be included in general education classrooms 100% of the time, no matter what. What Aaron said about the “drop and pray” method—hoping it works when combining students with and without disabilities—is not advocated by serious inclusion advocates. Inclusive education means providing support. Even with full support, there may be students we haven’t figured out how to include authentically and have them experience belonging. We have to figure that out, but it doesn’t mean we stop trying or don’t aim for 100% all the time. We might not get there, but it’s important to have the mindset of moving towards that goal.

Tim Villegas: Number three: We can’t move forward with inclusive education or practices unless it’s perfect or the absolute right way. I want authentic change for our school systems. I want teachers to feel supported and equipped to teach learners with disabilities, especially those with extensive support needs. That doesn’t happen overnight. When I hear about school systems saying yes to inclusion and having goals that are difficult to reach in the short term, I worry we aren’t setting up those systems for success. I understand the sense of urgency, but I’d rather have urgency about doing things authentically and meaningfully on the path toward inclusive education. Organizations like MCIE exist to partner with you to move things forward.

Tim Villegas: Call to action number one: If you are a school leader wanting to move inclusive practices forward, dismantle segregated disability-specific programs, and provide excellent education for all learners in your school or district, please reach out and have a conversation with us. It doesn’t cost anything to have a conversation. Even if we just point you to resources or another organization closer to you or more aligned with what you’re doing, we’d love to talk. Email us at mcie@mcie.org or use the contact form on our website at mcie.org.

Tim Villegas: Call to action number two: Make sure you check out Aaron Lanou’s website, aaronlanou.com, to find out what services he can provide as an inclusive education consultant.

Tim Villegas: That’s it for this episode of Think Inclusive. It’s time for the credits. Think Inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed, and mastered by me, Tim Villegas, and is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Original music by Miles Kredich. Additional music from Melody. Thank you to our incredible sponsor for this season, IXL. Learn more at ixl.com/inclusive.

Tim Villegas: Did you love this episode? Please tell us by emailing me at tvillegas@mcie.org or find us on the socials and send us a message on Instagram, Facebook, or X. Thank you so much for your time and attention, and remember, inclusion always works. Go Dodgers.

Download the complete unedited transcript here.