Born Fabulous: Greta Harrison’s Journey to Inclusive Storytelling ~ 912

Tim Villegas:
Recording from Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson airport. You are listening to the Think Inclusive Podcast presented by MCIE. This podcast exists to build bridges between families, educators, and disability rights advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. To find out more about who we are and what we do, check us out at thinkinclusive.us, or on the socials: Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter.

So why am I recording this intro from the airport? I’m on my way to Tampa/Clearwater, Florida for the 23rd International Conference on Autism, Intellectual Disability, and Developmental Disabilities. My colleague Nolan Taylor and I are presenting on MCIE’s student-centered planning tools—more about that with my upcoming recap of the DADD conference. And in case you missed it, I wrote a reflection about the Council for Exceptional Children conference in Orlando earlier in January. Check that out in the Weeklyish newsletter at weeklyish.substack.com.

Today on the podcast, I interview Greta Harrison, the host of the Born Fabulous Podcast. We talk about the reason for starting Born Fabulous, why hope should be an essential characteristic of an educator, and that the goal of inclusion is always life in the community. I’m so glad you’re here. Thanks for listening, subscribing, and rating us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And now, our interview with Greta Harrison.

Tim Villegas:
Today on the podcast, I’d like to welcome Greta Harrison, the host of Born Fabulous. Welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast, Greta.

Greta Harrison:
Thank you, Tim. It’s quite an honor to be here.

Tim Villegas:
So Greta, I want to talk about you and your podcast. I want to introduce you to our audience. Will you please give yourself a little bit of introduction and then we can talk about Born Fabulous?

Greta Harrison:
Okay. I’m much older than you, Tim. I have been married longer than you’ve probably been alive, but I grew up in the Midwest. I live in Virginia now. I came here a long time ago to go to college, and I have two beautiful, wonderful, amazing daughters. My oldest is 33 and she works for the Virginia Board for People with Disabilities as head of Planning, Research, and Evaluation. She has her master’s in public policy. My youngest is 21, which is hard to believe, and she has Down syndrome. Most recently, we found out she also has autism. We found that out in August.

In this journey, I’ve done what many parents have had to do the last 21 years. I’ve really had to educate myself and learn as much as I could to make sure that my youngest daughter has the fullest life possible.

Greta Harrison:
That’s involved a lot of traveling across this country to educate myself. I believe in becoming involved in your community—not just your school community, but your local community, as well as knowing what’s going on nationally. All those things take time. A couple of years ago, after hearing from a lot of other parents that they didn’t have the time or resources to do these things, I decided to give back like parents ahead of me had done.

One of the things that really hit me when my daughter was little was that people were already putting her in a box. When you’re a parent and you take your kids out in public, you usually hear, “Oh, what a beautiful baby,” or people ask questions. But right away, I started getting well-meaning people giving me stereotypical answers or advice about what people they knew with Down syndrome were doing.

They were very stereotypical things that young parents really don’t want to hear. I’m not putting down any kind of meaningful work—there are people in all kinds of jobs who want to be in those jobs. But when you’re a parent of a young baby, you want to think that baby has the world ahead of them. Whether the baby has a disability or not, the world should be their oyster. And I noticed that was not the case when it came to the public.

When she was five or six, I started to notice in the media Melissa Riggio, a self-advocate with Down syndrome in New York City. Her dad was a CEO of Barnes & Noble, her mother was an educator, and Melissa was doing great things. Melissa was the age of my older daughter, so there was a 12-year difference between Melissa and my younger daughter. I could watch and see what she could do. Melissa was writing and saying profound things like “Know me before you judge me,” having pieces published in National Geographic Kids, and having her poetry turned into music. Watching her from afar gave me hope.

I also learned early on that I had to educate myself and travel. I said, “I’m going to meet her parents one day.” I just knew it. And then in 2008, she passed away tragically from leukemia. I didn’t get to meet Melissa, but in 2011, I did get to meet her parents, which was a highlight. Meeting them was profound because their daughter had passed away three years earlier, and they were still changing the world—starting inclusive education in colleges, transforming group homes into inclusive experiences. They were still changing the world in Melissa’s name. I saw that you can be the change you want to see in the world through them.

Greta Harrison:
When you have a child who’s included in the school system, one of the things I really tell parents is to meet those teachers before the school year starts. Ideally, you can do it in the spring, but in my system, the school district is too big and there’s too much staff change. So we would usually meet the week before school starts. You can have a one-pager, a little video about your child, or bring your child with you so the new teachers can see them.

One of the most powerful things I did was bring examples of what’s already been done by those ahead of us. That really puts a stop to a lot of the naysaying. “Here’s Melissa Riggio. I’ve met her parents. They’ve said there’s no reason she can’t do A, B, or C.” Then I’d share other names—Brandon, Connor—example after example. That’s really important because a lot of educators don’t know. They haven’t seen it. It’s their first child with a disability. They don’t know what can be. When you give them an example and they know they’re not reinventing the wheel, it helps a lot.

A couple of years ago, I decided to make a podcast. Tim, I don’t know what I was thinking—it’s not easy! Anybody who thinks it’s easy just needs to try. There’s a lot to it, and I am not a spring chicken. I had to teach myself editing and everything behind it. But I wanted to do it because I wanted to get these stories of amazing people out there, because every single one of them is moving the needle forward. And that’s what I think we want to do.

I’m also a writer. I write for The Mighty. I’m writing a fiction book at the same time too. I really love to write. So that’s your very long-winded answer there.

Tim Villegas:
A couple of things popped in my head when you were sharing about stories. Let me tell you a story. You mentioned how you would bring stories to educators about other people with Down syndrome who were successful, and that communicated, “There’s nothing my daughter can’t do that someone else can do.”

I was a classroom teacher for 13 years, and then three years after that, I was a district support specialist. We had lots of different titles during those three years, but essentially I supported special educators working with students with disabilities, whether they were included or not. Sometimes that was in self-contained classrooms, sometimes fully included, sometimes not.

What your stories reminded me of was that educators don’t know what is possible. I remember as a teacher, knowing these stories and sharing them with families, saying things like, “There’s no reason why your son or daughter can’t go to college.” When I got my district-level position, the feedback I got from my supervisors was, “Tim, you can’t say that. You can’t give these families false hope.”

Tim Villegas:
Here’s my point: I think there are educators listening to us right now who want to believe in hope. I think there are families who want to believe in hope. The problem is that so many educators work in systems that, for whatever reason—malicious or not—strangle that hope. They say, “Temper expectations. Don’t give the parents everything they want, because if you do that, then they’re going to…” and so on.

I’m pulling back the curtain for everyone: those conversations happen all the time. They’re framed like, “I can’t believe that’s what the parent wants. That’s so unrealistic.” Not everyone is like that—many aren’t. Educators are fantastic people, and I’m proud to be one. I still consider myself one. But I don’t know what happens when you’re in a position of leadership that makes you so jaded, so cynical, that you don’t want families to have hope. What kind of world do we live in where that happens?

Greta Harrison:
That should be the first red flag for people who are hiring: hire educators with hope. If they don’t have hope, don’t hire them. You’re absolutely right.

You’re reminding me of a recent story from Twitter. I’m recently starting to become active there. A special education director from a small town in Massachusetts messaged me. He wanted to have a Zoom call just to chat. I said okay, and we Zoomed. I asked, “Why do you want to chat with me?” He said, “I’m fairly new to this position, and I have a lot of parents who see us as ‘us versus them.’ I know you always preach about relationships.”

I really try to tell parents to build those relationships because that gets you through the hurdles. He knew that and wanted to talk to a parent who believed in that. One great thing he said was that parents are so used to being told no that they go over his head. He pulls them aside and says, “Just come to me because you’ll probably hear yes more than you’ll hear no. Let’s stop this tug and pull.”

It was such a refreshing conversation. He said, “I’m here to make the system better. I know the system’s broken. I know I’m not perfect, but I don’t want to make it worse. I want to make it better.” We chatted for almost two hours. We need more like him, and we have to make sure our school boards and superintendents hire people like him because that’s a very important position.

Greta Harrison:
That’s why I go back to relationships—because parents have much more power than they think. I remember when my daughter was little and I was in an antiracism committee at my church. People seemed a little down, and I asked, “What can I do?” Someone said, “Greta, you write.” I was writing a lot of op-eds for our paper. He said, “That’s power right there.” And he was absolutely right.

Some of those op-eds made a big impact. I had a superintendent way back when my daughter was young who didn’t believe in inclusion. I led our Special Education Advisory Committee and went into his office for a private meeting. He said, “I think the special ed department is a Cadillac, and we just don’t have funding for a Cadillac. We need you to be a Pinto,” or something like that. He used this terrible analogy. I thought, “Are you kidding me?”

We had a great special ed director who was building teams and educating them, and he just chopped that off at the knees. So there was a tug and pull there—but always respectfully. I always tell parents: don’t go to school board meetings and yell and scream. A lot of things get solved behind closed doors by building relationships and being respectful in meetings.

I also wrote op-eds that he couldn’t dismiss. We developed a mutual respect. When he left, I was glad, and we had much better superintendents after that. But that respect was earned from power people don’t think they have—being involved in committees, knowing the school board, writing op-eds. These are things parents can and need to do.

A lot of people think parents can’t be involved in their child’s education. Well, talk to someone whose child is included—they are very involved. They have to be. And it’s not a secret. The curriculum guides are out there for your state and district. Curriculum leaders are really accessible. I have so much praise for the curriculum leaders I’ve dealt with in social studies, science, and math. They were thrilled that I came to them because parents don’t usually do that. They helped me, gave me materials, and guided me. Parents, you can be involved in your child’s education very easily. There’s no reason not to be.

Tim Villegas:
I have a question about that. When you’re talking about curriculum leaders, are you talking about district leaders in charge of curriculum? Just to clarify.

Greta Harrison:
Yes, the district leaders. I’m still friends with them to this day. Some have retired, but yes, they were amazing.

Tim Villegas:
I want to echo that too—the difference between a schoolhouse-level mindset of inclusion and a district-level mindset. A lot of times, you have curriculum and instruction leaders—maybe an assistant superintendent or a math coach—who are very open to inclusive education because they have a bigger picture. They see the connections.

When you pitch inclusion to them, they say, “Oh yeah, I can see that.” Whereas a classroom teacher in fourth grade might be so focused on their class that they think, “I don’t know how that works.”

From a systems-change perspective, what we’ve seen at MCIE is that convincing district leadership is the way to make sustainable change. You can convert as many classroom teachers as you want, but they don’t have the power to make systemic changes.

Greta Harrison:
That’s exactly right—it’s the leadership. And parents have power there too. When we chose our superintendent—he’s very good, by the way, and was in the top four for the country last year—I gave input to school board members. I said, “Please look out for X, Y, and Z.”

Now, there’s a process, and they followed it. They didn’t do anything special for me behind closed doors. But good school board members want to know all aspects of their community, and they want to include people with disabilities. They want to educate themselves on what to look for.

You have to keep track of these things: Who will be your superintendent? Your new special ed director? Your assistant superintendent? All of these roles are really important.

I’ve had parents come to me for help when they’re in crisis—suing their district—and they don’t even know who their special ed director is. I tell them, “No, no, no. Let’s backtrack. You need to know who all the people are.” That’s just really important.

You’re right—that’s where change starts and stops. I’ve had some really bad special ed directors, and it took years of parents and others shining a light to get rid of them. It didn’t happen by me alone, but my voice counted along with others. Too many parents give up when they get a bad director or administrator. Don’t give up.

Greta Harrison:
Tim, do you know who Cindy Pitonyak is? She was with Montgomery County Schools in Virginia and now she’s with VCU. She’s a big inclusion guru.

Tim Villegas:
No. Is she related to David?

Greta Harrison:
She is—David’s wife.

Tim Villegas:
Okay, I know David. We republished something he wrote on Think Inclusive a long time ago.

Greta Harrison:
Well, Cindy has a really good video called How to Bring a Small County to Inclusion. It’s about 20 minutes long, and it’s fabulous. She explains how they became an inclusive school district and spells it out. She talks about how you’re going to have stones in the road—there’s no clear path.

What I try to tell parents is: don’t let those stones or rocks deter you. That’s why relationships are so important. Build them over time. Don’t wait until you’re in crisis to build those relationships. Have them already so that when the crisis happens—and it will—you have those relationships in place to get past those stones.

People think our road was super easy. It wasn’t. We had stones, but we had a lot of superstars. I call educators like you superstars. They’re the ones who keep the system going, keep hope alive, and stay in students’ lives forever.

My daughter was class of 2020. In January of that year, I met with our assistant superintendent and said, “My daughter has so many rock stars from her past who want to come to her graduation—even from out of state. I’m going to need 20 tickets.” He said, “No problem. We’ll make it happen.”

It didn’t happen because of COVID—graduation looked different—but the fact that so many wanted to come meant the world to us. They were more upset about the changes than we were. That’s what keeps you going—the rock stars.

Tim Villegas:
I want you to spend a little time sharing about Born Fabulous. At the beginning, you talked about wanting to start it, but you’re wrapping up your second season, right?

Greta Harrison:
I’ve already wrapped up the second season—it’s been out for a year now. I’m starting on the third season.

Tim Villegas:
So Born Fabulous has two seasons. Could you share with our audience—if they haven’t listened yet—what those seasons are about? And maybe give a teaser for Season 3.

Greta Harrison:
Sure. I have themes for each season. Season 1’s theme is parents—the parents behind these superstars. As a parent, that’s who I was reaching out to.

My first interview was with Steve Riggio, the CEO of Barnes & Noble, and his wife Laura. Their daughter Melissa had passed away, and I admired them so much. That was hard but rewarding. Laura told me she always felt her daughter had to prove her worth in the classroom. How many times have we heard that? We still hear it today.

Steve shared that he was in an IEP meeting and asked, “Who knows my daughter?” and nobody did. He told Laura, “It’s time to move.” They moved. Melissa was born in 1988, fully included, on her swim team—things that are still hurdles for families today.

I also interviewed Sandra, Sean’s mom from Born This Way. She’s written three books and is always willing to help parents. She shared how Sean faced discrimination, like when a drama teacher said, “We have to save these seats for people who have a future in acting.” Fast forward—Sean’s on a show that wins an Emmy. Sandra wrote that teacher a respectful letter.

Then there’s Tim Harris—the first person with Down syndrome to own a restaurant. He’s an incredible public speaker and a joy to know. His story is amazing—how his parents thought outside the box to help him achieve his dreams.

Greta Harrison:
After Season 1, I looked at feedback. Parents liked hearing from other parents, but nonprofit leaders reminded me: “Get the self-advocates involved.” They were right. The logo for my podcast was drawn by my daughter, and the music is from Melissa Riggio’s collaboration with Rachel Fuller. So I wanted to involve self-advocates as much as possible.

Season 2’s theme is self-advocates and their best friends without disabilities—showing organic inclusion and friendships. Friendships are so important for a fulfilled life. Some people, like my daughter, are shy and have a harder time making friends. Others, like Tim Harris, make friends instantly.

I interviewed Micah Fialka-Feldman, who’s featured in the film Intelligent Lives by Dan Habib. I also talked to Kayla McKeon, the first professional lobbyist with Down syndrome in Washington, D.C.—she’s a firecracker! She even has her own podcast, Kayla’s Corner. One of her most profound episodes featured Johnny Taylor from the Society for Human Resource Management talking about true diversity.

I also spoke with Sean from Born This Way and his best friend, and of course Tim Harris and his best friend. These conversations show how friendships enrich lives and how inclusion creates real community.

Greta Harrison:
Season 3 is coming soon—we’ll be recording in January and February, and then I’ll edit and release as soon as I can. Editing is the hardest part!

Before we wrap up, I want to share a story. The first man ever diagnosed with autism was Donald Gray Triplett, born in 1933. He grew up included in his community in Forest, Mississippi. Because he was included, everyone in town knew him and accepted him. He lived a full life as part of that community.

I also think of Tommy Sinclair from my own town in Hampton, Virginia. He had a disability—nobody knows exactly what—but he was included in school and in our community. Everyone knew Tommy. He could walk anywhere, and it was his town. That’s what we all want for our children: to be fully included in their communities.

Inclusion in school leads to inclusion in life. That’s why I’m such a strong advocate. I call myself a “rabid inclusionist.” When I hear people say they’re anti-inclusion, I tell them, “You’re not anti-inclusion—you’re anti-doing-it-wrong.” Because when inclusion is done right, it works.

I didn’t go to school with anyone with disabilities. In fact, I’ve met people who told me their siblings with Down syndrome were sent away to institutions. That’s why this work matters so much. We need a world where everyone belongs.

Tim Villegas:
Greta, will you tell our listeners where they can find you—your podcast, social media, website?

Greta Harrison:
You can find my podcast anywhere podcasts are heard, including your smart speaker. Or go to http://bornfabulouspodcast.com. My Twitter handle is https://twitter.com/PodcastBorn. On Facebook, it’s Born Fabulous Podcast, and on Instagram, it’s also Born Fabulous Podcast.

Tim Villegas:
Fantastic. Make sure you check out those links and subscribe to Born Fabulous. Greta Harrison, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Greta Harrison:
Thank you so much, Tim. I really appreciate it.

Tim Villegas:
That will do it for this episode of the Think Inclusive Podcast. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Email us at podcast@thinkinclusive.us. Thank you to our patrons for supporting the show. Learn more at https://www.mcie.org/. Until next time, remember: inclusion always works.