Navigating Change in Education: A Conversation with Dr. Shelley Moore

Shelley Moore: If you are a classroom teacher and you are wondering where kids are, go get them. You’re welcome because you will not believe the difference in the community that will be created when you open your doors. If you’re a special educator or a support teacher, find one classroom teacher to try something new with and share the heck out of that.

People will suddenly be like, “Oh, hey, I want that.” Sometimes it feels like working with one person isn’t impactful, but like the sea star, it makes an impact on that one. Those stories spread. Parents talk. Teachers talk. Every time I work with a teacher for the first time, they’re like, “It was so helpful when I opened my door. I had access to you.”

Another person to do this work with, and every time I do it, they’re like, “This helps more than just this kid.” Sometimes it feels like we can’t change everything at once. Find one person, one kid, and show people. If people push back, they’ve never seen it before. Show them what’s possible. It’s hard to unsee.

Tim Villegas: Hi friends, it’s Tim Villegas. This is Think Inclusive. Who you just heard was our dear friend Dr. Shelley Moore. Haven’t heard of her? Here is some info. Based in British Columbia, Canada, Dr. Shelley Moore is a highly sought-after inclusive education researcher, teacher, consultant, and storyteller.

She’s worked with school districts and community organizations around the world. Her research explores how to support teachers to design for all learners in grade-level academic classrooms that include students with intellectual disabilities using strength-based and responsive approaches. Shelley completed her undergraduate degree in special education at the University of Alberta, her master’s at Simon Fraser University, and her PhD at the University of British Columbia. Thanks so much for being here with us today. We appreciate each and every one of you listening to or watching Think Inclusive, MCIE’s podcast that brings you conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world.

And while you’re here, make sure to hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you are so you can keep getting Think Inclusive in your feed.

In this episode of Think Inclusive, we welcome Dr. Shelley Moore to discuss the challenges and successes in the realm of inclusive education. We get personal, talking about Shelley’s experience raising toddlers and delving deeply into the issues educators face in promoting inclusive practices. We address systemic challenges in Canada and the United States, the importance of community and collaboration among educators, and specific practical steps for advancing inclusivity in schools.

We also discuss the concept of independence and agency in students with disabilities, the misunderstandings about inclusiveness, and the role of self-advocacy.

Shelley tells us about Outside Pin Consulting, her company aimed at fostering diverse voices and expertise in inclusive education. And finally, Shelley and I talk about mindfulness and how it could possibly help educators in their day-to-day. Before we get into my conversation with Shelley, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this season, IXL.

IXL is a fantastic all-in-one platform designed for K-12 education. It helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers, and tracks progress seamlessly. Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources. Well, that’s IXL. As students practice, IXL adapts to their individual needs, ensuring they’re both supported and challenged. Plus, each learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively address any knowledge gaps. Interested in learning more? Visit ixl.com/inclusive. That’s ixl.com/inclusive. All right, after a short break, my conversation with Dr. Shelley Moore. Catch you on the other side.

Tim Villegas: Dr. Shelley Moore, welcome to the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Shelley Moore: Thank you. I love coming to the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Tim Villegas: We love having you. We love having you.

Shelley Moore: Anytime, anytime. I’ll always come, Tim. Every time.

Tim Villegas: That’s great. Um, how are you doing right now? Let’s do a body-mind check. How are you, how is Shelley?

Shelley Moore: That’s such a great question. Well, I have two toddlers if that gives context for anything.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, it does.

Shelley Moore: Parenting is so hard. They are almost two and four, and they are ruling the roost. They’re amazing and I love them, but I am on a steep learning curve because everything I know about life, they’re reteaching me.

Tim Villegas: And what are their ages exactly?

Shelley Moore: They’re one and three, but they turn two and four in May.

Tim Villegas: Okay. Yeah, you are in it right now.

Shelley Moore: I am in it. There’s no eating alone, no sleeping alone, no nothing alone. I used to like having clean clothes and brushed hair. No more.

Tim Villegas: Yeah.

Shelley Moore: But they’re so cute.

Tim Villegas: They’re so cute.

Shelley Moore: So that’s all-encompassing.

Tim Villegas: Mm-hmm.

Shelley Moore: And things are busy. Lots of travel, which is great. Working with some pretty incredible communities to do the good work of inclusive education. More important than ever, as you know.

Tim Villegas: Absolutely.

Shelley Moore: And I find that this job can be a little lonely. So just really making an effort to connect with my people, especially when life feels overwhelming in the world, and remind each other that we gotta stick together. And you’re one of those people, Tim.

Tim Villegas: Oh, thanks Shelley. Appreciate that. Well, that’s great. Let me reflect with you for a minute here. My kids are 18, 15, and 12.

Shelley Moore: Oh, you have three?

Tim Villegas: I have three, yeah.

Shelley Moore: I want three, Tim.

Tim Villegas: Well, I hope you do.

Shelley Moore: You’re kind of in it too.

Tim Villegas: We’re in it. We’re in a different stage of life because when you have toddlers, you don’t get sleep. You still don’t get sleep, but it’s just a different kind of not getting sleep. It’s a lot of routines, like bathroom routines, changing diapers, feeding, all that kind of stuff. And now it’s like taking them everywhere. We go to cello lessons, my youngest is in color guard, and my oldest is in college now and really thriving. So really excited about that.

Shelley Moore: That’s awesome.

Tim Villegas: But yeah, we’re in it for sure. Isn’t it wonderful to have a partner to do that with?

Shelley Moore: My mom was a single mom, and as soon as I became a mom, I was like, “Ma, how did you do this?” So just shout out to all single parents out there. A partner makes it manageable for sure.

Tim Villegas: Exactly. And if I can do a little body-mind check, this has been a difficult week. There’s just a lot going on.

Shelley Moore: There’s a lot going on. We’re watching all the things going on for us, and I feel scared and want to help, but I don’t know how. I mean, I have an extra room. You could bring your family up to Canada for a few.

Tim Villegas: It’s scary. But very privileged to be able to have a conversation with you and do this work of trying to equip people to be inclusive. Being able to talk to so many different people who want to move inclusive practices forward. So I’d like to start here with our conversation. You talk to a lot of educators from not only Canada but the United States and all over the world. What are you hearing as things that are on top of mind that are important to them? Things that they’re just trying to figure out right now?

Shelley Moore: I think it’s really hard to be an educator right now. Here at home, we’re struggling with a lack of resources. Even people who are like, “Yes, let’s do it, let’s move inclusion,” are struggling with the misinterpretation that inclusion is just dumping kids in a room without any support around professional development and resources around staffing. What ends up happening is people start to push back against inclusion instead of advocating for more resources to be used in inclusive ways. So then we start to move backwards and open all these programs. That’s where we’re at right now in Canada. People just don’t know how it’s possible with the resources that are available.

Tim Villegas: Where does that sound familiar?

Shelley Moore: Right. We don’t have any law or policy. When people are struggling, the goodness of your heart is not enough. There’s no accountability at the government level to provide, creating a lot of tension and scapegoating inclusion to be the problem instead of other things.

Tim Villegas: Mm-hmm.

Shelley Moore: When I do work overseas, it’s kind of like inclusion light.

Tim Villegas: Mm-hmm.

Shelley Moore: Because, you know, the schools, their international schools, their private schools, and they’re starting to see their population change. There’s a lot of fear because they have never served kids with disabilities before. They’re dealing with fear and bias that obviously still exists in North America, but in a different way because the population they’re starting to consider is what we started to consider in the seventies and eighties. Populations are changing and demand is increasing. So there’s a lot of fear over there and wanting to do right and not knowing how.

When I’m in the States, the top of people’s minds right now is how do we do this work when all the funding for DEI efforts is now being threatened? How do we talk about inclusion of disability and not about race? How do we talk about inclusion of disability and not about equity work? It becomes this mesh of intersectionality and trying to divide and conquer. Then it just becomes this intersection of impossibility for people. We get overwhelmed and give up, our mental health is affected, and our wellbeing is affected. At the end of the day, it’s just really awful for kids and families.

Tim Villegas: Yeah.

Shelley Moore: I think it’s really hard right now.

Tim Villegas: It’s really hard right now.

Shelley Moore: It’s really hard right now.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. And I think it’s okay to name that and for people to know that we see that and we feel it as well, even though I haven’t been in a classroom for quite a while now. It’s something that is on my mind all the time. This is a random question, but we’re gonna go there because I know you’re good with it. Do you personally, not even professionally, do any sort of meditation or mindfulness?

Shelley Moore: Such a good question. I probably should do more. You know where my quietness is? It’s when I drive. After I have a big workshop day or a big presentation day. Usually, the question is, what do you listen to? What are your podcasts? What is your music? Honestly, nothing. I sit there with my mind. There’s nothing. I even turn off the fan sometimes. That’s probably where I find my most quiet thinking times. I probably need to create some spot time where I’m trying not to think. Maybe I’ll try to do that while I’m driving.

Tim Villegas: Yeah.

Shelley Moore: But no, not really. Do you make time for that?

Tim Villegas: I do, but most recently. Okay. I’m gonna tie it back to education because even when I was in the classroom, this was maybe in the 2010s, social-emotional learning was really getting into the literature and people were talking about mindfulness. At that time, I was just like, yeah, totally, that sounds nice. I wasn’t part of the indoctrination crowd, but I didn’t really know if it made a difference. I’ve been trying to figure out what that looks like for me. It wasn’t until I had some very practical things to practice mindfulness and meditation that I was like, oh my gosh.

Shelley Moore: Are you noticing a difference?

Tim Villegas: Yes.

Shelley Moore: Really?

Tim Villegas: Yes. There’s something really calming and grounding about being able to be present and letting things and emotions and situations wash over you instead of overtaking you and overwhelming you. I think that is worth everyone exploring, whatever that means for them.

Shelley Moore: Just what you said sounds so nice, to be present and to not let emotions wash over you. If you create a podcast of just your voice, I would listen.

Tim Villegas: All right. A mindfulness podcast with Tim Villegas. The last thing I thought I would ever do.

Shelley Moore: I’m in, I’m game.

Tim Villegas: I think there is something to do, whether you find your peace driving without music or walking without any music. Sometimes I do that. Any of these practices are worth looking into because we need something practical to get through the world we live in.

Shelley Moore: I’m writing it down.

Tim Villegas: Good, do it. Speaking of practical steps that educators can take, are there any things you get asked all the time? What can I do to move inclusive practices forward in my school or district? What are your go-tos?

Shelley Moore: My number one is to find someone to do this with. Find one person in your school to do this with because you can’t do this by yourself. Number one, go find someone. Number two, when a classroom teacher asks me, “What can I do?” I say, go down to whatever end of the building houses the students who are not in your class. Go down there and ask for one, go say, “I want one, give one to me.” Because I think there’s a lot of assumption that we can’t, we can’t. That’s not how we do things here, you know?

I had a good friend of mine who teaches at a high school. Usually, kids are self-contained in life skills programs. I asked her, “Where are the kids with intellectual disabilities in your school?” She said, “They are part of gym and art and stuff.” I asked, “Why aren’t they in your class?” She said, “Because they don’t register in my class.” I told her, “Go get one.” She asked, “Can I?” I said, “Go run, go get one.” A couple of days later, she texted me, “Can I have more than one?” I said, “Yes, more than one.” She talked to the department head, and they are setting up to enroll two students with intellectual disabilities in her economic theory, grade 11 academic class. They put two in there so they could get staffing that would work. She’s so excited, and I told her, “I’ll help you.”

Sometimes, if you come into a school and it’s just not something that has been practiced historically, you don’t even realize that it’s allowed to happen. But go get them. There was another teacher who came to me when I was school-based, and he said, “I feel like there’s a voice missing. I talk about inclusion and equity and diversity, but how can I talk about those things when there are voices in my class that are clearly missing? Can I have someone?” I said, “Yes, you can.”

If you are a classroom teacher and you are wondering where kids are, go get them. You’re welcome. You will not believe the difference in the community that will be created in your class when you open your doors. If you’re a special educator or a support teacher, sometimes you feel like there’s no one out there who wants to do the work. If you can find one person, one classroom teacher to try something new with, and share the heck out of that, people will suddenly be like, “Oh, hey, I want that.”

Sometimes it feels like working with one kid or one person isn’t impactful, but like the sea star, it makes an impact on that one. Those stories spread. Parents talk to each other, teachers talk to each other. Every time I work with a classroom teacher for the first time, they say, “It was so helpful because when I opened up my door, I had access to you. I had access to another person to do this work with.” Every time I do it, they say, “This helps more than just this kid.”

I know that sometimes it feels like we can’t change everything at once. So start small. Find one person, find one kid, and show people. If people push back, they’ve just never seen it before. Show them what’s possible. It’s hard to unsee.

Tim Villegas: It is. For special educators who are doing this work and doing the next right thing for their students, it really motivates them and helps them to keep going.

Shelley Moore: Yeah.

Tim Villegas: Because if you stop and think nothing is going to change, it’s harder to stay motivated. That’s why going to conferences and meeting with other like-minded people is so important. You get your bucket filled back up, and you’re like, “Yeah, I can do this.” I’m not the only one who thinks this way, and it’s working for them, or they’re doing something really cool. I think that’s really important. Have you been inspired recently? What’s filling you up right now?

Shelley Moore: Oh, okay. So what is filling me up right now, and I kind of mentioned it already, is like one thing that I was really missing was the community in this job. I get to go to a lot of communities and it’s amazing, but I was missing the relationship parts of the community that I used to get in school, like the collaboration with families, students, and other colleagues. I was really missing that because that’s where my bucket gets filled and where I learn. I still need to learn, right?

One project that I’m loving right now is our team is expanding to include multiple expertise. I’m not an expert at everything. There are things I can speak to, but I can’t fill all the lanes and I don’t want to fill all the lanes. For example, I’m not an early childhood educator. There are so many questions right now about how to support students in childcare settings, early preschool, and primary. My research is in high school. I don’t need to become an expert in early childhood. I need to find someone who has aligned philosophy and expertise in early childhood.

I’ve always wanted to create space on this platform for self-advocates to have their voices shared and for families to have their voices shared. We’re slowly expanding our team to fill in some of these gaps that I can’t fill. As a result, I’m working on some incredible collaborative projects that I have been craving. For example, I’m working on inclusion and universal literacy in inclusive classrooms for a kindergarten class with a kindergarten teacher. I just started working with an inclusive and neurodiverse affirming occupational therapist on a project to support OT in the classroom. I don’t need to become an OT; I need to find an OT that aligns.

It’s creating this lovely little collective, and we’re calling ourselves Outside Pins because of the metaphor. I’m super inspired by that because people are contacting me who want to be involved, and I’m connecting with people who want to be involved. When you feel alone and the world feels hard, finding someone who aligns with you, who you don’t have to convince, is so important. Let’s do some magic. We’re getting great feedback from people we’re engaging with, and it’s keeping me going, Tim, I’ll tell you.

Tim Villegas: That’s good.

Shelley Moore: Yeah, I love it.

Tim Villegas: Tell me more about Outside Pin, because you are Outside Pin Consulting, right?

Shelley Moore: Yeah, Outside Pin Consulting.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, because you finished your doctorate. Dr. Moore.

Shelley Moore: Dr. Moore.

Tim Villegas: Now you’re kind of in this other phase of taking on the world with inclusion.

Shelley Moore: Becoming a doctor was probably the hardest thing I’ve ever done, even harder than parenting. I’m really proud of myself for doing it, but I still feel a little bit like a fraud, like I found a cheat code to life. I was not a person who did well in school or academia at all. Because of that, I knew I didn’t feel called to academia in the same way as my colleagues. I still teach at the University of British Columbia and I’m involved in research projects that I love, but that’s not everything I want to do.

This all came from being stuck in LA traffic with Katie Novak. She looked at me and said, “What’s your plan? You have your PhD now. What’s your plan?” I said, “To continue.” She said, “No, go big or go home, Shelley. What are you doing?” She told me I needed to hire more people. I had this barrier in my mind that hiring new people meant training people to do my presentations. I had no interest in doing that. My disclaimer on every presentation is that it’s not training because the goal is not to do what I do. The goal is to co-construct something meaningful for you and your community. That’s inclusion to me. We’re completely compromising the integrity of inclusion if I’m trying to create more of me. She said, “No, don’t create more yous. Find allies, find collaborators who align with you. Give me three people right now that you would want to work with.” I listed three people. She said, “Okay, by the next time we talk, you need to talk to them.”

Katie Novak is like my personal life coach. I have a little team that I work with for administration purposes because I have negative executive functioning skills. I ran it past the team, and they said, “Let’s try it. Let’s do a little pilot.” We started with three consultants: a primary teacher, a parent, and a researcher—Katie Jamison, Lori McIntosh, and Dr. Leighton Schneller. We worked together to build some presentations and see if there was an appetite for that. There was. Now we’re up to nine consultants in our little team.

Tim Villegas: Wow. That’s amazing.

Shelley Moore: All that includes self-advocates and families, and it’s just this beautiful collective. Our goal is to come together once a year for a creator retreat. We’re available for presentations, consultations, and coaching. Katie Jameson is a parent, and she just spoke to every teacher candidate at Simon Fraser University yesterday. Opportunities to hear from different voices, knowing that it’s vetted under this umbrella of inclusion, is the next best thing. There’s no compromise here; there’s no reason why we’re not moving forward. Having that confidence is really drawing people, especially in times like this where we feel like, where are we gonna go? We’re getting incredible feedback from people saying we’re bringing some light in a really dark time, and that is just making my heart glow.

Tim Villegas: Yeah, absolutely. And you go anywhere, I’m assuming, not only Canada?

Shelley Moore: Yeah, we go anywhere.

Tim Villegas: Okay, great.

Shelley Moore: Our website is being built right now, but I can definitely send you information about what that means and what that looks like if you want to know more. My big goal was to not make it like a talent bureau or a speaker agency. It really is a collective of diverse voices. The metaphor of the outside pin is, you stand on the outside looking in, and sometimes you’re ridiculed for that, but actually, your perspective is a contribution. We’re gathering the edges because people are doing this work on the edges. They’re not part of the status quo in mainstream sometimes. Highlighting those perspectives is becoming a little passion project that I’m just loving.

Tim Villegas: That’s great. So excited for you.

Shelley Moore: Thank you.

Tim Villegas: And as MCIE, we are always on board for a collaboration.

Shelley Moore: Well, maybe you’ll be getting a little email from my team, my friend. Just stay tuned.

Tim Villegas: Let’s talk about media resources because you have the Five Moore Minutes videos. You just put one out a few weeks ago about people aren’t supports, which was fantastic.

Shelley Moore: It caused a stir, Tim.

Tim Villegas: It caused a stir? Tell me about that stir, Shelley.

Shelley Moore: I got two stirs. The first stir was, when someone is stressed and navigating an education system that’s not well-resourced, they see a video that says people aren’t supports, and they hear, “Oh, Shelley’s saying we don’t need people anymore.” That’s not what I meant at all. I meant let’s articulate why we need people because it’ll help our advocacy efforts. That went south real fast.

Tim Villegas: Oh no.

Shelley Moore: I have learned to just let the emotions wash over me. Someone thought I was working as a government spy trying to dismantle public education. It went deep, Tim. In hindsight, maybe I would have changed the title to be less triggering, like “How Are People Support?” or “Are People Support?” But part of my mission with Five Moore Minutes videos is that they’re provoking. It’s conversation.

Tim Villegas: That’s the point.

Shelley Moore: I earned a Facebook badge the other day for stirring conversation on Facebook. I’m a conversation starter.

Tim Villegas: Because as you know, the research shows that one-to-one support can actually inhibit the goals of inclusion. But that’s a hard thing to say when people are struggling to find resources to support inclusion. It’s a very valid concern.

Shelley Moore: Absolutely. It wasn’t the aim of the video at all.

Tim Villegas: Was there another stir?

Shelley Moore: Yes, this one caused me some reflection, and I’m curious to hear what you think. One of the rationalizing points in the video was that we want to use our adults in ways that facilitate an increase in independence for our students. If we’re not articulating what people are doing, it often becomes “do for” not “do with.” It becomes more of an assimilative process as opposed to a facilitated process. The video said we want to increase self-determination in our students so they feel agency and independence over time. The pushback was around the word independence, mainly from the medical community, saying, “My child will never be independent.” My response was, “What’s your definition of independence?” If you’re looking at independence through a standardized lens, then yes, some people will never be independent. But Dr. Lenel on my podcast asked, “Independent in what?” So, is saying that independence is the goal ableist, or is thinking independence is the goal high expectations?

Tim Villegas: I would say that it really does depend on your definition of independence.

Shelley Moore: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Tim Villegas: Um, but I could see that interpretation.

Shelley Moore: Right, me too.

Tim Villegas: Me too. And there’s something about, um, gosh, I really learned this from Janice Fialka Feldman. Are you familiar? She talks about interdependence and her son Micah. Independence could be misconstrued as having to do everything by yourself.

Shelley Moore: Exactly.

Tim Villegas: Which is not how I would frame independence. I do like interdependence better, just in general. But sometimes that word confuses people too. As a viewer of the video, and we’ll make sure to link that in the show notes so everyone can see it, I think I knew where you were coming from, but I definitely hear the feedback and I think it’s valid.

Shelley Moore: I think it’s totally valid. The other point that was brought up was that sometimes independence is used as a gatekeeper to inclusion.

Tim Villegas: Yes, for sure.

Shelley Moore: You’re not independent enough to fill in the blank, right? I never thought of that. My definition of independence is to co-construct a goal that’s meaningful to the actual person. But you have to calibrate that understanding before using that term within the context. I could see how it could be misinterpreted and become a gatekeeper and super problematic. I appreciated that feedback and responded to it. Recently, I saw a post on Instagram that said, “What if you substitute the word agency for independence?” Now I’m throwing that around in my head. Leighton was saying how agency is a feeling, whereas independence is the action. We’re getting into semantics, but intentional vocabulary is so key to this work.

Tim Villegas: It really is. Yes. All of that’s really valid and worthwhile to think about. Isn’t that interesting? But also, for you to produce these videos, really put yourself out there and make a stand on certain concepts surrounding inclusion, no one else is doing that, Shelley, so thank you so much.

Shelley Moore: You don’t think so?

Tim Villegas: Not the way you do it.

Shelley Moore: Sometimes I think when I do it too much, I’m gonna get canceled.

Tim Villegas: I think we all bring our own strengths and gifts to this work. Before we really knew each other, I saw your videos and thought, “I could never do that.” I’m certainly a lot closer to being able to do it now, but that’s still not my strength. My strength is having a conversation, asking questions, and producing it in a way that people can hopefully have a discussion later. Professors and teachers use the videos and the podcast for class discussions, and our partners use these discussions to share with staff. That’s where my wheelhouse is. Other people are really good at Instagram reels, and I am not. That’s okay.

Shelley Moore: I cannot figure them out. If my role in this collective community is to provoke and be sassy and take a stand, sign me up. I mean, I’m a Leo.

Tim Villegas: When’s your birthday?

Shelley Moore: July 23rd.

Tim Villegas: July 23rd. Okay. We have two Leos in my family. July 28th and August 21st, which I think is still Leo territory.

Shelley Moore: Right in there.

Tim Villegas: Well, Tim, I appreciate that because sometimes when you’re provoking, it makes people angry.

Shelley Moore: Been there. We’ve definitely published some things that people are not happy about.

Tim Villegas: My wife is very helpful. She’ll just be like, “Put down your phone. No more. Let me read your response first.”

Shelley Moore: It’s so easy to be sensitive, especially when first starting out with writing a blog and posting on social media. In the early days, you just wanted to respond to every single thing.

Tim Villegas: Okay, here’s an image that’s really helped me. I was doing meditation, and the practice was pretending like you’re sitting and viewing a mountain. The mountain is still, it does not move. You imagine the mountain moving closer and closer to you until it becomes part of your body. The mountain is the base, and the top of your head is the peak. You’re just taking breaths. Let’s do it right here. Breathe in and out of your nose. In the nose, out the mouth. One more time. In the nose, out the mouth.

Shelley Moore: Let’s just clarify, we’re not volcanoes, right?

Tim Villegas: Right, we’re not volcanoes. Imagine the breath coming into your nose as cool and warm coming out. You’re imagining yourself as the mountain. The mountain experiences all these different things—weather, people walking all over it, maybe a natural disaster—but the mountain does not move. The mountain is the mountain. The weather passes.

Shelley Moore: I would listen to that every night.

Tim Villegas: This “I am the mountain” mindset was mind-blowing. It really has helped me.

Shelley Moore: I mean, I am just gonna get a t-shirt that says “I’m the mountain” and wear it every time I release a video. You know what I love about that? When people react, even when I react, especially when I react, there is no room. I’m not changing my mind when I react. No one’s minds are shifting when you react because it’s so explosive. If I can imagine myself as the mountain with reactions happening all around me, that’s not gonna move my philosophy. That’s not gonna move why I made the video. The difference between reactions and a really good, meaningful comment, like the one around independence, is like someone climbing the mountain. I can respond to that.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. I love that

Shelley Moore: Oh, that’s good. It’s good stuff. I Am Mountain.

Tim Villegas: Good stuff. All right. So, before I let you go, before we get to the mystery question, I’m really excited about this. The podcast, tell me more. You have videos that are coming out every so often, and then you are doing a monthly, is that right?

Shelley Moore: Right. We started in January with a monthly schedule of content that balances being a parent to a toddler and maintaining community. Week one is a book club on Instagram Live. Right now, we’re reading a book called “List of Cages,” and our theme is centering neurodiverse voices as a main character. There are like 7,000 people in that book club. You’re all welcome to join. It’s chaos, and my children join, and you never know what’s gonna happen next. Our slogan is you don’t even have to read the book. Show up. We’re the most inclusive book club. You don’t even have to read it.

The second week is the release of a new Five Moore Minutes video. There’s one coming out on February 8th. The third week is a podcast with someone on the Outside Pin team to talk about the video. The podcast allows our team to talk about it from our diverse perspectives and get a little more nuance, which is hard to find in the Five Moore Minutes videos. The last week of the month is a Q&A. If there are any good questions or feedback, we do a Q&A live on Instagram Stories and Facebook Stories. It’s an opportunity to have some interaction, responsivity, and connection. We just went through our first full cycle. There’s a newsletter thrown in there, so we’re trying to post-COVID, post-issues.

Tim Villegas: Listen, that is a lot, Shelley. That is a lot. I don’t know how you do it.

Shelley Moore: I have some great team members who are helping me.

Tim Villegas: Good. That’s very good. Awesome. We’re gonna put all that information in the show notes and make sure everyone can figure out how they can either join the book club, watch the videos, listen to the podcast, all of that stuff. Before I let you go, I want to do a mystery question. We did a mystery question last time, right?

Shelley Moore: I’m sure we did because it’s fun.

Tim Villegas: Exactly. I have a stack of cards, and it used to be like four or five inches big, and now it’s just a few left.

Shelley Moore: That’s amazing.

Tim Villegas: I’m ready. I don’t know what the question is, and we’re gonna both answer it. Here we go. The mystery question is, what are most people afraid of that doesn’t scare you? What are most people afraid of that doesn’t scare you?

Shelley Moore: Can I just say disability?

Tim Villegas: That’s good. Yeah, that’s good.

Shelley Moore: My first reaction was the word change, but that’s not true. There are elements of change that do scare me, but specifically in the educational context, a lot of people fear change. I’m at this point right now in education that if we don’t change, it’s not gonna work for anybody. It’s already not working for so many kids. I think change, especially as kids get older, is something that a lot of people fear, and they hold onto what they know. But I’m like, let’s blow it up.

Tim Villegas: Let’s go, let’s go, let’s go. Nice. The first thing that came to my mind was public speaking. It’s always been not a thing. I really enjoy presentations. Even when I was a kid, I enjoyed doing a presentation, and then I got more and more comfortable with it. I used to be in rock bands in high school and college, and part of that performance aspect is you just get used to being on stage and having a microphone. I think that’s probably why I enjoy podcasting because it’s very similar to that. I forget who I was talking to about this, but I would rather hold a microphone than just talk in front of an audience.

Shelley Moore: I totally agree.

Tim Villegas: Having a microphone is like having a mask. It’s something to drop. But I still never know what to do with my hands. I enjoy public speaking, so I think a lot of people don’t.

Shelley Moore: That’s a good one. Do you want me to end off with a funny story?

Tim Villegas: Absolutely. Go ahead.

Shelley Moore: Okay. So one question that I often get connected to Universal Design for Learning is if you want kids to show their learning in a different way, a really easy way to do that is to connect with the different literacy languages, right? So you have written language, oral language, visual language. Historically, if it wasn’t written, those were adaptations. But in UDL, those are just different pathways that have equal value.

Tim Villegas: Sure.

Shelley Moore: For example, I am not a strong writer, but I can talk all day and I love visuals. Oftentimes, researchers’ strength is writing.

Tim Villegas: Right?

Shelley Moore: One of my favorite stories about this is when I was in my PhD program, I went to AERA in New York City, which is the biggest educational research conference. To get in, you get to choose if you want to share your research in a poster, as a presentation, or as a paper—the three literacy languages. Even at NYU AERA, top conferences, you need to be strong in all three of these languages, right? I always pick poster because I can talk all day. But no one likes the posters. They all want to do the paper because that’s their strength. But there’s not enough, so they get their second choice. I’m in my poster session because I always get first choice, and the guy beside me is so mad. I’m like, “Oh, welcome to the poster session. You’re my neighbor.” He’s grunting. I’m like, “Where’s your poster?” He’s like, “I’ll show you my poster.” He staples his paper to the wall.

Tim Villegas: Oh no.

Shelley Moore: I asked, “Aren’t you gonna stay and talk?” He’s like, “People can read it,” and he goes and gets a coffee. I’m like, “This is it. We have to build all of our literacy muscles—speaking, writing, and visually expressing ourselves. Those are not adaptations.”

Tim Villegas: Oh my gosh.

Shelley Moore: He was so mad. I was just like, “That’s not a poster.”

Tim Villegas: That’s not a poster. Okay, so I have some thoughts about that. It’s making me rethink poster presentations because…

Shelley Moore: I love ’em.

Tim Villegas: I’m interested, but it makes sense. Sometimes someone will have been accepted for a poster instead of something else and feel like it’s the lesser.

Shelley Moore: Yeah.

Tim Villegas: Right.

Shelley Moore: It is not, my friend. Look at this poster. You are turning it around.

Tim Villegas: Wait, are you trying to show me a poster?

Shelley Moore: Well, yeah, but my cords are tangled.

Tim Villegas: It’s okay.

Shelley Moore: You can kind of see the edge of my PhD poster right there. You can only see the word, but I swear there’s visuals on it.

Tim Villegas: People see it as lesser than, and I’m like, “Oh no. To be able to synthesize your writing to create visuals is a very important skill.”

Tim Villegas: That is really interesting. We do have a lot of educators and researchers that listen to this podcast. So I want you to take heart, educators.

Shelley Moore: Oh, poster. Take heart.

Tim Villegas: When you got accepted for that poster presentation instead of the other thing…

Shelley Moore: I think it’s harder because you have to synthesize in a non-linear way.

Tim Villegas: Yeah. But also, teaching our students how to visually communicate is such an important skill.

Tim Villegas: All right. On that note…

Shelley Moore: I love us. We’re so fun.

Tim Villegas: Dr. Shelley Moore, thank you so much for being on the Think Inclusive Podcast.

Shelley Moore: Anytime, my friend.

Tim Villegas: That’s the final frame of this episode of Think Inclusive. Let’s roll into the credits.

Think Inclusive is brought to you by me, Tim Villegas. I handle the writing, editing, designing, mixing, and mastering. This podcast is a proud production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Our original theme music is by Miles Kredich, with additional music by melod.ie. A big shout out to our sponsor, IXL. Check them out at ixl.com/inclusive. We truly appreciate each and every one of you who tunes in. We’d love to hear how you are using these episodes. Are they part of your teaching toolkit? Are you sharing them with school administrators? Have you recommended a specific episode to anyone? Drop me a line at tvillegas@mcie.org and let me know. And hey, if you’re still around with us this far into the episode, it probably means that you love Think Inclusive and the work that MCIE is doing. So can I ask a small favor? Help us keep the momentum going by donating at our website mcie.org. Go to the top of the site, there’s a donate button there, and chip in $5, $10, $20. It would mean the world to us and the children in the schools and districts we partner with. Thanks for your time and attention. And remember folks, inclusion always works.

Download the complete and unedited transcript here.