The Power of Inclusion: A Conversation with Emily Ladau and Kyle Khachadurian ~ 502

Emily Ladau
Hi, I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle Khachadurian
And I’m Kyle Khachadurian.

Emily Ladau
And you’re listening to The Accessible Stall podcast.

Tim Villegas
Recording from my office in beautiful Marietta, Georgia, you are listening to the Think Inclusive Podcast, Episode 14. Today we have Emily and Kyle from The Accessible Stall podcast, which—if you’re going to listen to any other podcast related to inclusion and disability—this is the one. They keep it real about issues within the disability community. We talked about how and why they started The Accessible Stall. Also, we have a very interesting conversation about inclusive versus isolated special education schools and classrooms.

After the podcast, please stop by our brand new Think Inclusive store at thinkinclusive.us/shop, where podcast listeners can take 30% off their order with promo code POD30.

So without further ado, here is the interview.

Today on the Think Inclusive Podcast, I have Emily Ladau and Kyle Khachadurian. Did I say that correctly?

Kyle Khachadurian
Yes, you did.

Tim Villegas
Fantastic. Emily and Kyle are the co-hosts of The Accessible Stall podcast. Emily is a passionate disability rights activist, public speaker, writer, and digital communications consultant. All of her work is driven by her firm belief that if we want the world to be accessible to people with all types of disabilities, we must make ideas and concepts readily disability-accessible to the world.

Kyle does not identify as an activist, but he is dedicated to bringing about greater understanding of the disability experience. He also works in the field of communications.

Welcome, Emily and Kyle.

Emily Ladau
Thank you for having us.

Tim Villegas
Emily and I have worked together before on stuff with Think Inclusive, and it’s been a while since I’ve actually talked with you, Emily, so I’m really happy to catch up. Kyle, I don’t know you other than listening to The Accessible Stall. I did do a little homework and listened to a couple of episodes. I want to talk more about that. But since I don’t really know your background, maybe you could tell me and the listeners of Think Inclusive who you are and why you were drawn to The Accessible Stall as a way of talking about disability.

Kyle Khachadurian
I got my start in disability in the same way that a lot of activists I know did—by landing an internship in Washington, D.C. It seems to be a rite of passage for many of us. From there, I was lucky enough to land a job, and it snowballed into something outside of disability. But because of the contacts I made during my time in D.C., it stayed sort of like a professional hobby.

What started The Accessible Stall was that our friends were tired of hearing Emily and me argue all the time. We had this idea to make a podcast for quite some time. What finally pushed us over the edge was an article about Whole Foods pulling pre-peeled oranges off their shelves. We had so many feelings about it. We thought, “We have to do this project right now.” That night, we recorded three episodes. Over the next month, we worked out a plan to put them out. That was the birth of The Accessible Stall.

Tim Villegas
Emily, why don’t you tell me a little bit about why Whole Foods pulling pre-peeled oranges off their shelves was a big deal?

Emily Ladau
It caused an interesting debate within the disability community. Environmentalists argued that pre-peeled oranges in plastic packaging are extremely wasteful. But on the other side, it’s a matter of access for the disability community. People who may not have the dexterity to peel an orange or the ability to eat it the way nature intended find that a pre-peeled orange makes a healthy food more accessible.

Environmentalists and disability activists really butted heads over this issue. Kyle and I, rather than coming to a decisive conclusion, wanted to explore it from all angles and have an in-depth conversation about the conflicting needs to save the Earth and ensure that disabled people have access to healthy foods. When we realized that something as small as a pre-peeled orange could lead to an issue as big as the Earth versus eating, we decided it was time to get down to business and record the conversation. That was when we started engaging in a larger dialogue around disability issues.

Tim Villegas
How many episodes have you recorded so far?

Kyle Khachadurian
I think we’re on number 36 now.

Tim Villegas
And that’s been in a relatively short time, right?

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, just over a year. We celebrated our one-year podcast-versary on April 18, and we’ve been steamrolling ahead.

Tim Villegas
That’s great. You’ve already beaten Think Inclusive Podcast—we’re only on Episode 14. I love it.

The episodes I listened to included the one about you getting your hearing aids, Emily.

Emily Ladau
Okay, so a more recent one.

Tim Villegas
Yes, and the one I found particularly compelling was the sheltered workshops versus sweatshops episode. Very good conversation.

Kyle Khachadurian
I think that’s my favorite.

Tim Villegas
It’s a good reflection of the relationship you both have and the respect you have in disagreeing with each other. You don’t come to a conclusion like, “Well, I guess we solved that problem,” but more like, “This is what I’m thinking, this is what you’re thinking, and other people have thoughts too.” It was a very refreshing conversation.

Emily Ladau
I don’t think we’re ever going to really solve problems. In fact, we do a good job of creating more of them and stirring up a little controversy. Disability is so nuanced and complex that there’s really no right or wrong answer in a lot of cases. It’s important to us not to have a firm stance on anything that can’t be discussed. If you’re going to have a stance, you have to be able to pick it apart, talk about it, and discuss why you feel that way. We try to poke holes in each other’s logic and come out with a stronger perspective on the other side.

Tim Villegas
That’s a good way to look at complex issues. Something we try to discuss on this podcast is inclusive education. There’s the broader idea of inclusion—big “I” Inclusion—and then we get into the weeds about inclusive education. Since I have both of you here, I wanted to pose a question and maybe we could have a mini conversation. Inclusive education is one of those nuanced issues that people have strong feelings about.

What would be your impression of the self-contained special education classroom? Just to be clear, that’s a classroom designed only for students with a particular disability or type of disability.

Emily Ladau
You’re talking to two people whose education was pretty much diametrically opposed. I went to a mainstream public school throughout my education. Kyle went to a school specifically for disabled people. So we have interesting perspectives.

For me, I benefited strongly from being in a mainstream school. Interestingly, my parents were posed with the option of sending me to the exact same school Kyle went to. They chose not to because they felt that sending me to a mainstream school would be both practical—it was close to home—and would ensure I had a solid educational foundation.

I wasn’t put in a self-contained classroom. I was included in everything. My situation might have been unique in that I didn’t have an IEP. I had a Section 504 plan, meaning my needs were largely physical rather than academic. That made it easier for teachers not to see me as extra work. I hate to say that, but I think sometimes teachers perceive inclusion classrooms as more work because they have to gear lessons toward students of all different learning abilities—even though I think that’s the job of a teacher.

I’m very much against self-contained classrooms because being included helped me thrive. But that’s not to say that Kyle, who was in a self-contained school, isn’t thriving now. So it’s an interesting conversation.

Kyle Khachadurian
I went to the exact kind of school you described, and I really didn’t like it. I’d been going there since I was four. At that age, I needed the services they offered—PT, OT—and I was already a smart kid, so education took a backseat to my physical needs. My parents thought that was best.

But as I got older, it stunted my social growth. When I left for college, I stepped out of my bubble. Even though I was a commuter, the floor fell out from under me. I was immediately put on academic probation because I was used to an environment where, frankly, a lot of the work got done for you. I had to go through a whole process to get off probation.

I like the idea of inclusion. If your disability includes medical needs that conflict with your ability to receive an education, then self-contained schools are great. But if your needs are purely physical, like mine, I’m not a big fan. I wish I had gone to a mainstream school. My school was so small we couldn’t get things like AP classes. Plenty of students could have benefited from them, but we didn’t have the numbers. So we were at a disadvantage.

Emily Ladau
Hey Kyle, I have a counterpoint. You said people whose medical needs prevent them from receiving a certain type of education might benefit from self-contained settings. But isn’t the goal of inclusion to ensure that even if someone has medical needs, they can still be incorporated into a mainstream classroom as much as possible?

Kyle Khachadurian
That is what I think. But my school was, at the risk of saying it, a little too inclusive. If they had zeroed in on students with a certain set of needs, those students could have excelled. But because the school had so many students with so many different disabilities at so many ability levels, you had to average out everyone’s needs. I’m not saying schools should be less inclusive, but a more specialized approach might have benefited students who needed it most.

I didn’t receive a subpar education. In fact, I learned things that mainstream schools don’t teach—like how to write a résumé and do a job interview. But we missed out on AP and honors classes. It was a give and take. Personally, I wish I had gone to a mainstream school.

Tim Villegas
Let’s talk about special education as it is now. There’s a continuum of services that special education is supposed to provide. The idea is that students should be educated in the least restrictive environment possible.

You have students in general education with accommodations, then students who receive specialized instruction—still working on general education standards, just presented differently. Then you have co-teaching support, where an extra teacher helps with inclusion. Then you move into more restrictive environments—small group classes, autism-only classrooms, intellectual disability classrooms, and so on.

If IDEA is being followed the way it was written, do you think that’s a good model? And if not, what are your thoughts on how it should be?

Emily Ladau
That’s something I struggle with. Sometimes inclusion, if not done well, can risk education quality for everyone. Teachers may focus too much on accommodating some students and not others. Inclusion is complex.

In some cases, I understand the need for more isolated learning environments to ensure students thrive. But there needs to be a happy medium where disabled students aren’t cut off from mainstream interaction.

I don’t think the law, even if followed to the letter, is doing the best it could to ensure a free appropriate public education for everyone. That looks different for everyone, not just people with disabilities. Everyone is unique. The law is better than nothing, but we need to restructure how we think about including everyone while meeting their needs.

Tim Villegas
What about your thoughts, Kyle?

Kyle Khachadurian
I’m going to cop out a little. There’s not a single word Emily said that I disagree with. It’s tough to balance disability-related needs with educational needs. Even if the law were followed perfectly, I don’t know if it’s ideal. I don’t know enough to develop my own model, so I guess we have to work with what we have and learn how to implement it better.

Tim Villegas
Something I thought was really interesting happened a couple of weeks ago—and I’m totally dating the podcast by referencing something in the news, so I apologize—but I think Betsy DeVos, the Education Secretary, said something about how students or families shouldn’t have to sue school districts to get the education their child with a disability needs. I thought that was an interesting soundbite because, in principle, I agree with that.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, that’s probably the only thing I’ve ever heard that woman say that I would agree with.

Tim Villegas
Yes. But because I know her interpretation of school choice and options doesn’t necessarily align with mine, I still think it’s an interesting point. That is what ends up happening—families, because they’re fighting for their child and what they feel their needs are, end up having to sue districts to get their child included or to get an ASL interpreter, or special audio-visual devices, or technology for the classroom. They feel that’s what FAPE looks like for their kid.

This is something I constantly think about—not only because it’s my job, since I work for a school district and it’s always on my mind—but because I’ve put myself into this world where I’m constantly thinking about this dichotomy: What is inclusion? What does inclusive education mean in the system we have? I don’t have a magic wand. I can’t wave all self-contained classrooms away. But when I talk to some advocates, they say, “How can you be okay with self-contained classrooms?” And as a teacher who taught in one for many years, I do see the benefit for some students.

Having this conversation is really important. When I was struggling with the idea of inclusive education and what education should look like for all students, especially students with disabilities, I felt alone. I had these conflicting thoughts, but I didn’t hear anybody on the advocacy side echoing them. It was all, “Self-contained classrooms are bad. They’re evil. You should really reconsider your job, Tim.”

Emily Ladau
It’s so tough. I recently published a piece—again, dating the podcast—but one of my jobs is as Editor-in-Chief of a blog for an organization called Rooted in Rights. We published a piece by a great autistic writer exploring why homeschooling for the disability community should be an option, but it shouldn’t have to be the only option.

As we were editing the piece, the theme that emerged was that homeschooling is a great option, but it shouldn’t be a last resort because your public school won’t accommodate a student with a disability properly. There are so many different and valuable forms of education, but often the law becomes a fallback—not something that’s actually followed.

When we have to sue for our basic right to an education, it becomes exhausting to fight for inclusion—especially when the term “inclusion” is used loosely and isn’t even being done well. That’s when you start to see the merits of a self-contained classroom or an environment specifically for people with disabilities that knows how to work with and meet their needs.

It’s an issue I understand the conflict around. When the options you’re presented with aren’t very good, what are you supposed to do? Are you supposed to say, “Well, even though this effort at inclusion is terrible, at least they’re including me, so I should be grateful and deal with it?” I don’t think so.

Tim Villegas
Yeah, I agree. So I guess how I wrap my brain around this—and I’d love to hear both of your feedback—is really striving for inclusion in your own context. Whatever inclusion means for you or your family in your context—whether that’s Kyle’s experience in a school for only special education students or in a mainstream or inclusive classroom—what about my context can I make inclusive for myself and my family?

That’s just my own thinking. I’ve talked to too many people who say, “I would not choose inclusion for my child,” or “I would not choose inclusion for myself. I want to be in an environment where there are people like me.” So I think that’s a really important conversation to have, and I’m really glad you were able to weigh in on that.

Kyle Khachadurian
Just as a corollary, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with an environment full of “people like me.” I just think that in my particular case, there were a lot of times where one’s medical needs superseded the rest of our educational needs. Because I didn’t need them as much as whichever student in question, I felt—well, I don’t want to say shortchanged—but pretty much shortchanged.

I don’t think that’s their fault or the fault of the way the classes were structured. I think that’s just the way the particular school handled it. I absolutely see the merits of an inclusive classroom versus a classroom full of students like me. It’s so tough because there are pros and cons to each. I don’t know if there’s a right answer, but I don’t think it’s as easy as “self-contained classroom bad, inclusion good.” There’s a huge gray area, and taking either absolute is ignoring the larger issue.

Tim Villegas
Yeah, for sure.

Emily Ladau
You’re also making me think about how I almost had the opposite of your experience. I was around a bunch of people without disabilities during the school year, and at the same time you, Kyle, were exiting that bubble for the summer, I was entering it. I went for many years to a summer camp specifically for kids with disabilities.

On one hand, that’s the least inclusion you can get, conceptually—it’s like, “Let’s just send all the disabled kids off to this camp.” But on the other hand, it was some of the most inclusion I ever felt. For those few weeks every summer, there was no explaining myself. There was no feeling like I needed to keep up with non-disabled children who maybe didn’t quite get the concept of inclusion.

So in a way, that was inclusion in a different context for me. That was my opportunity to have things geared toward me entirely, 110% of the time. I know Kyle went to that camp too, and I’m not sure if he liked it quite as much as I did.

Kyle Khachadurian
Well, I think if I had gone to a mainstream school like you, and summer was my only exposure to disability, I would have liked it a lot more. The reasons I didn’t like it were purely personal and personality-based.

The only way I can relate it to this conversation is that I spent nine months with people with disabilities. Not that I wasn’t one myself, but I just wanted to get away from that environment. When I went to that camp, not only was I still around people with disabilities, but it was the same people I was just in school with. I thought, “Oh my God, can I have my summer without any of you?”

So that’s where it was a bit more personal.

Emily Ladau
True. There were very limited places for all of us to go. The same people who went to Kyle’s school went to the camp with me. For me, this was a new and strange experience every summer. For Kyle, it was just like, “Oh, you’re all following me to the same place?”

Kyle Khachadurian
Exactly. That’s really what it was. It wasn’t about them at all.

Emily Ladau
I think that’s fair. It points to a larger issue—a lack of inclusive spaces. We always say, “Don’t think of us as a monolith,” but the reality is, we really do all know each other. There aren’t enough spaces for us in any form of inclusive environment that gives us the space to thrive and be ourselves—whether it’s educational or recreational.

It seems like we’re still being lumped together, and society hasn’t quite figured out what to do with us. Sometimes that can be a good thing. For me, summer camp was a good thing—seeing other people like me. But after a while, I even got sick of it. That was just for a few weeks at a time. I thought, “Why can’t a regular summer camp just include me in their activities? Why do I need to go to a special summer camp?”

I’ve seen the pros and cons fluctuate throughout my life. I don’t think I can ever have a definitive answer on inclusion because it means different things to me at different times.

Tim Villegas
Yeah. I like that perspective.

Tim Villegas
We are just about out of time, so I wanted to talk about where people can find The Accessible Stall and maybe what’s next. I saw you had a big announcement on Facebook—that was exciting. Want to share that?

Kyle Khachadurian
Oh my God, spoiler alert—we don’t quite know yet. Our fantastic news was that we were just awarded the July Disabilities Grant from the Awesome Foundation. We had applied once before and didn’t get it, but that didn’t deter us. We applied again, and this month we got it. We just got the news, I think, two days ago. Right, Emily?

Emily Ladau
Yes!

Kyle Khachadurian
So the next big thing for anyone who listens to us will just be awesome episodes. But for us, we’re going to make a game plan and see what’s next—just like everyone else, I suppose.

Emily Ladau
And we just opened a joint bank account.

Kyle Khachadurian
That’s true. We’re basically married now.

You can find us on Facebook at The Accessible Stall and on Twitter at @AccessibleStall. Most importantly, visit us at theaccessiblestall.com. We’re available on all major podcasting platforms—just search “The Accessible Stall.” We’re the one that looks like a bathroom sign. You can’t miss us.

Tim Villegas
I just want to thank both of you for being on here and having an awesome conversation. I’m looking forward to listening to more Accessible Stall, and I hope to catch up with both of you soon.

Emily Ladau
Thank you for having us. This was a lot of fun. We really covered a lot.

Kyle Khachadurian
That’s why it deserves its own episode.

Tim Villegas
That’s why we’re here. Go ahead and run with it—it’s fine with me.

That is our show. We would like to thank Emily and Kyle from The Accessible Stall for joining us. Make sure you check out their website, theaccessiblestall.com, and you can find them on Facebook and Twitter.

Follow Think Inclusive on the web at thinkinclusive.us, as well as Twitter, Facebook, Google+, and now Instagram.

Today’s show was produced by myself, talking into USB headphones, a Zoom H1 Handy Recorder, MacBook Pro, GarageBand, and a Skype account. You can also subscribe to the Think Inclusive Podcast via the iTunes Music Store, Google Play, Stitcher, or Podomatic.com—the largest community of independent podcasters on the planet.

From Marietta, Georgia, please join us again on the Think Inclusive Podcast. Thanks for your time and attention.